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Originally Posted by The Drunkard
Or you can just put Mirror of Disenchantment on a mesmer and stop the doublecast nonsense in the first place
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Update - January 5, 2012
Reverend Dr
Daesu
I think it would be even harder to do the HM Titan quests after the second part of the ele update. Better finish them now while you still can, they are worth a gold zcoin + other rewards each quest. One gold zcoin is easily tradable for 2 ectos.
If you are interested to finish them using your heroes, refer to this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10498916.html
If you are interested to finish them using your heroes, refer to this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10498916.html
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by urania
necs or rend touch/rending sweep dervs = win.
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Oh, and with decent awareness you can even use it like BSurge to help catch spikes. Gimping a spike by a couple hundred damage usually makes it a lot less lethal. At worst you're covering something else you didn't want Shattered and sneaking a Weakness in as well.
urania
yea, it's stupid.
but as far as spike countering goes, i think gust takes the 1st prize. if they actually adjust stone sheath it will most definitely be the next elite of choice.
but as far as spike countering goes, i think gust takes the 1st prize. if they actually adjust stone sheath it will most definitely be the next elite of choice.
Essence Snow
Idk if anyone else noticed (i'm sure some have) that you can cast the double cast skills on yourself and still get 2x the dmg. This includes stone sheath, mirror of ice, and gust. Double dragon does not give the 2x dmg when self targeted.
Relyk
It's been noted on all the guildwarswiki pages Essence Energy Boon doesn't give double energy either.
Energy Boon doesn't give double energy either.
Avatar Exico
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Idk if anyone else noticed (i'm sure some have) that you can cast the double cast skills on yourself and still get 2x the dmg. This includes stone sheath, mirror of ice, and gust. Double dragon does not give the 2x dmg when self targeted.
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Swingline
An update just hit for AI usage of DD, Stone Sheath, MoI and Gust. Also a bug fix for freezing gust. Hope the AI uses the skills properly now
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Unfortunately the solution to such power creep as Stone Sheath is more power creep or a big nerf to it. If no nerf then this game will collapse into itself like a neutron star.
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
Right, but forcing opponents to surrender skill slots, casting time and energy on counters confers an advantage.
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MithranArkanere
Oh, that's true.
I noticed how heroes used waaay often the doublecasts on my character as an assassin.
Haven't had that much fun as an assassin in ages. And it was just with a Stone Sheath and Double Dragon elementalists.
That' 1.5 casting time is also great.
I never though I'll ever put fireball and obsidian flame back in a hero build ever again. But now they feel much fluent in both players and heroes.
While playing a Lich MM with Death Nova, came to me that Death Nova could use that 1.5 casting time too. Even when I heal them with blood of the master before using nova, minions tend to die right before Death Nova activates during battle.
I noticed how heroes used waaay often the doublecasts on my character as an assassin.
Haven't had that much fun as an assassin in ages. And it was just with a Stone Sheath and Double Dragon elementalists.
That' 1.5 casting time is also great.
I never though I'll ever put fireball and obsidian flame back in a hero build ever again. But now they feel much fluent in both players and heroes.
While playing a Lich MM with Death Nova, came to me that Death Nova could use that 1.5 casting time too. Even when I heal them with blood of the master before using nova, minions tend to die right before Death Nova activates during battle.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by urania
but as far as spike countering goes, i think gust takes the 1st prize. if they actually adjust stone sheath it will most definitely be the next elite of choice.
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Originally Posted by Swingline
Unfortunately the solution to such power creep as Stone Sheath is more power creep or a big nerf to it.
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Originally Posted by Swingline
If no nerf then this game will collapse into itself like a neutron star.
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Swingline
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
...but the game already did that a long time ago as a result of the Nightfall and EoTN power creep, which broke PvP and PvE respectively.
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Stone Sheath is not about stopping power but about pushing teams into a corner. It gives amazing defense through armor, crit immunity and weakness for prolonged periods of time unless stripped and cleaned. Then theres the damage. I shudder at 4 stone sheath eles with obby flame for spikes.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Swingline
Yes that is true. It's easy to forget because it feels like 100 years since NF and EoTN was released. It's about to do it again however with skills like the new Stone Sheath. A future nerf for this skill is inevitable.
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Lanier
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Hopefully not a full nerf but a split. Really aggrivating when PvP, which is basically dead...so who cares outside of few sqeaky wheels, makes skills useless in PvE where more ppl actually care but aren't as vocal. I'm all for a split but HELL NO for full nerf.
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Mouse at Large
Stone Sheath is fine in PvE. Mostly useful for farming or for very specialised groups. If it seriously screws PvP (as opposed to forcing players to adapt/adjust the meta) then split it.
No more of the tail wagging the dog please
*Edit* Just had a trawl through obs mode. If Stone Sheath was game breaking in PvP, I'd expect to see multiple copies being run in ele biassed teams. If it's taken at all, it's generally on a single ele and most teams were running a max of 2 eles. That's not a broken skill, it's just shifting a stale meta imo.
No more of the tail wagging the dog please
*Edit* Just had a trawl through obs mode. If Stone Sheath was game breaking in PvP, I'd expect to see multiple copies being run in ele biassed teams. If it's taken at all, it's generally on a single ele and most teams were running a max of 2 eles. That's not a broken skill, it's just shifting a stale meta imo.
AndrewSX
Well, now Double cast spells deserves a slot in a hero team.
Tried Gust oon Zhed while VQing with my sin. Was nice to see almost full groups of mobs KD'ed while i was destroying them with dagger. Turned useful to stop wars running back a healer too.
Tried Gust oon Zhed while VQing with my sin. Was nice to see almost full groups of mobs KD'ed while i was destroying them with dagger. Turned useful to stop wars running back a healer too.
lemming
rofl stone sheath
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Gill Halendt
Somehow I missed Stone Sheath... It's absolutely retarded.
Geez, whatever they're smoking, I want some.
Geez, whatever they're smoking, I want some.
Lanier
This is a question for the PvP folks: Why is the buff to Stone Sheath a bad thing in pvp? With all of the powercreep to offensive skills, I would think that having a new defensive skill that can slow down spikes would be a good thing. Of course, I don't know about pvp, hence why I'm asking this question.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by lemming
rofl stone sheath
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah |
This is beyond pathetic, every single team has stonesheath ele with other crap spams.. It has too low energy cast and recharge, which means the ele can still even be useful spamming it only..Removing earth attunement is basicaly the point, but SS spam is still enough annoying( and there's glyph anyway...). It makes some situations even more joke they are( lol 1v1 king of the hill against rit + 2 monks + stonesheath ele, which is clearly impossible to win as red as long as they keep no dp on the map...)...
Most fights are lasting 15mn, even monks with no energy can do the job as you need at least 3 melees to be able to deal damage with weakness( having only 1 melee will make that ele laugh...)...
When you were thinking about if something worse than invoke could be done, clearly yes(and there is still shockwave doing same damage with additional blind, bsurge still doing blind ith additional damage, etc...)
The main problem is that clearly, the way to counter this would be some kind of spikes, but then the flux says hi...
Side note: i'm not even going to argue how joke FA on kurzick side is with stonesheath el/mo( healer)
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Lanier
This is a question for the PvP folks: Why is the buff to Stone Sheath a bad thing in pvp? With all of the powercreep to offensive skills, I would think that having a new defensive skill that can slow down spikes would be a good thing. Of course, I don't know about pvp, hence why I'm asking this question.
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lemming
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Originally Posted by Lanier
This is a question for the PvP folks: Why is the buff to Stone Sheath a bad thing in pvp? With all of the powercreep to offensive skills, I would think that having a new defensive skill that can slow down spikes would be a good thing. Of course, I don't know about pvp, hence why I'm asking this question.
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2. Sure, Stone Sheath does wonders against spikes, but it hoses physicals in general far harder. When the dominant builds of the past three months have been ele-centric defensive spikes, I somehow doubt that adding more defensive spike templates is much of a good corrective measure.
Mouse at Large
I'm still not completely understanding the Stone Sheath hate from a PvP perspective. It introduces a new dynamic and shakes up the meta - as did the mesmer and derv updates. Instead of QQ, why not try to adapt???
And in any case, leave it alone for PvE.
And in any case, leave it alone for PvE.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by Lanier
This is a question for the PvP folks: Why is the buff to Stone Sheath a bad thing in pvp? With all of the powercreep to offensive skills, I would think that having a new defensive skill that can slow down spikes would be a good thing. Of course, I don't know about pvp, hence why I'm asking this question.
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1) Deal large quantities of simultaneous damage to target(s), zeroing out the health bar.
2) Disable the opposing midline and backline's ability to prevent and heal damage. This is generally done with some combination of disabling key skills and depleting casters' energy (directly or indirectly).
Stone Sheath makes it very, very difficult to do either. It's arguably even more effective than Aegis was at preventing melee damage over time, it significantly affects midline support characters' ability to inflict damage, and it even boasts both passive and active spike prevention capabilities.
I'll skip a full treatment of this point since it's a bit involved, but the intuition should be obvious: when it's generally hard to kill things, defensive builds predominate because an aggressive build template just isn't worth the associated risks. Unfortunately, if you take this to the extreme it becomes impossible to kill anything, yielding a dull meta with stalemated match after stalemated match.
To put it another way: for PvP to work, there has to be some mechanism permitting effective teams to distinguish themselves from ineffective teams. Create a skill that functionally blunts all damage by a sizable percentage, and it becomes much harder for that to happen. It's not a question of adaptation, it's a question of whether or not the game fulfills the objectives of being fun and rewarding quality play.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
There are two ways to kill things in Guild Wars PvP:
1) Deal large quantities of simultaneous damage to target(s), zeroing out the health bar. 2) Disable the opposing midline and backline's ability to prevent and heal damage. This is generally done with some combination of disabling key skills and depleting casters' energy (directly or indirectly). Stone Sheath makes it very, very difficult to do either. It's arguably even more effective than Aegis was at preventing melee damage over time, it significantly affects midline support characters' ability to inflict damage, and it even boasts both passive and active spike prevention capabilities. I'll skip a full treatment of this point since it's a bit involved, but the intuition should be obvious: when it's generally hard to kill things, defensive builds predominate because an aggressive build template just isn't worth the associated risks. Unfortunately, if you take this to the extreme it becomes impossible to kill anything, yielding a dull meta with stalemated match after stalemated match. To put it another way: for PvP to work, there has to be some mechanism permitting effective teams to distinguish themselves from ineffective teams. Create a skill that functionally blunts all damage by a sizable percentage, and it becomes much harder for that to happen. It's not a question of adaptation, it's a question of whether or not the game fulfills the objectives of being fun and rewarding quality play. |
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
So let me get this right...It takes out the ability of teams to faceroll other teams in formats where ability is not matched on an even basis or makes matches drawn out? Really? This is what all the hubub is about?
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The severe problem is that it makes it impossible for closely matched teams to discriminate. To pressure a team out, you have to produce a great deal more damage or threats than the opponent with the same resources. Blunting damage output sufficiently makes this impossible, with the result being that matches which would get resolved by actual play instead get resolved by the tiebreaker.
Think about the problem this way: suppose we're playing speed chess. Suddenly we reduce the available clock to the point where it becomes a game of pure reflexes (where each player is desperately trying to make a legal move before the time runs out) rather than a game of strategy. But you're a chess player. You sat down to play chess. Are you happy about this change?
Well, that's what's happened here. People want to play Guild Wars, not game a flawed tiebreaker system every match.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
Think about the problem this way: suppose we're playing speed chess. Suddenly we reduce the available clock to the point where it becomes a game of pure reflexes (where each player is desperately trying to make a legal move before the time runs out) rather than a game of strategy. But you're a chess player. You sat down to play chess. Are you happy about this change?
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To put it more succinctly: powerful damage mitigation should always be predictive, not proactive. The former requires a skill check on your part vs the enemy's skill at tricking you or diverting you. The latter is a constant defense. It just sits there, making your team a brick wall and the game dumb.
Martin Alvito
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Originally Posted by Kunder
Nah, thats an overly offensive-based guild wars. The Defensive version of Chess would be each player given a Chess computer as an adviser on their move. The computer would always give the best possible move (bring Stone Sheath) which would, assuming both players played the best possible move, always end in the same result (stalemate with neither side doing anything).
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Essence Snow
The thing is it's not the move...it's the piece....you already assume the other team will have it so you plan ahead. Your team can have it...thier team can have it..there is no distict advantage given to one team or the other. It's all about how they use it or fail to counter it...ie...use it or counter it skillfully....(which I thought is what pvp was about). It's not like your team doesnt have the exact same options as the other team and that your team is at some disadvantage b/c stone sheath's current state.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
The thing is it's not the move...it's the piece....you already assume the other team will have it so you plan ahead. Your team can have it...thier team can have it..there is no distict advantage given to one team or the other. It's all about how they use it or fail to counter it...ie...use it or counter it skillfully....(which I thought is what pvp was about). It's not like your team doesnt have the exact same options as the other team and that your team is at some disadvantage b/c stone sheath's current state.
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Balance isn't just about me vs you, its how interesting the dynamics of skill selection and skillful play work out. Forcing characters to bring Stone Sheath and counters to Stone Sheath eliminates 90% of the skill selection part, and the means by which Stone Sheath operates (taking no skill to cast on recharge on your backline) greatly diminishes the skill vs skill plays inside the match.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Kunder
By that logic not a single thing Anet could do to PvP could be imbalanced as long as both sides were allowed to bring the same skills. Hopefully I don't have to elaborate on why that is a silly notion.
Balance isn't just about me vs you, its how interesting the dynamics of skill selection and skillful play work out. Forcing characters to bring Stone Sheath and counters to Stone Sheath eliminates 90% of the skill selection part, and the means by which Stone Sheath operates (taking no skill to cast on recharge on your backline) greatly diminishes the skill vs skill plays inside the match. |
Stone Sheath is not alone in the list of skills that teams have to be prep'd for in pvp. It is simply the newest. While I agree it's OP (compared to some other skills, but who are we kidding...that goes for a myraid of skills) in PvP....I don't agree it's worth getting one's panties all in a bunch about.
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Completely subjective. What may be interesting to you may not be interesting to another.
Stone Sheath is not alone in the list of skills that teams have to be prep'd for in pvp. It is simply the newest. While I agree it's OP (compared to some other skills, but who are we kidding...that goes for a myraid of skills) in PvP....I don't agree it's worth getting your panties all in a bunch about. |
Essence Snow
Might want to look at the bolded part..that is what "subjective" was referring to. Not that SS is or may be OP.
Martin Alvito
While it may be subjective, I'm not aware of any successful game of chance that involves placing a bet, then waiting 28 minutes for the results of a coin flip.
You do realize that democratic societies make governance choices entirely on the basis of the subjective judgments of its members, right? Showing that fun is subjective in no way invalidates the claim that we should change the game to make it more fun.
You do realize that democratic societies make governance choices entirely on the basis of the subjective judgments of its members, right? Showing that fun is subjective in no way invalidates the claim that we should change the game to make it more fun.
Essence Snow
^^ much better arguement...to which I applaud
urania
What you are forgetting is that balance is a lot about the relation between the level/amount of invested skill and the gain one receives from it.
stone sheat (read: shit) is a good example of an extremely lousy relation between the two.
stone sheat (read: shit) is a good example of an extremely lousy relation between the two.
Missing HB
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Completely subjective. What may be interesting to you may not be interesting to another.
Stone Sheath is not alone in the list of skills that teams have to be prep'd for in pvp. It is simply the newest. While I agree it's OP (compared to some other skills, but who are we kidding...that goes for a myraid of skills) in PvP....I don't agree it's worth getting one's panties all in a bunch about. |
You used to get matches fast before, but today you need to prepare 3 hours to expect doing something in HA or GvG, and when you come back from work, it's not really passionating having to wait an hour to then face the same people playing 24/7 running the most boring build ever...(note : i'm talking about those guilds either syncing codex or playing HA permanently, not about people playing to win)
Fluffy Kittens
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Originally Posted by urania
stone sheat (read: shit) is a good example of an extremely lousy relation between the two.
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cormac ap dunn
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Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole
I have to agree, 1 simple click makes you and another player in team basically invulnerable to physical hits. I hope that's not the way they wanted that skill to function.
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IrishX
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Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn
I disagree, one click makes you and another teammate LESS vulnerable to physical hits. The majority of the complaints here seem to be of the " boohoo my assassin is less effective at face rolling through HA, change it no fair!" sort. People are whining because they might have to accept bringing a different secondary or GASP allow a different class to be brought? Really? PVX must not have a counter build under their meta tagged section yet. LOL
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2. Assassins are probably the least impacted by Stone Sheath, since dagger damage is already so low, and most of their damage comes from spamming attack skills.
3. The risk vs. reward ratio is way out of whack. For 5e and 1.75s, you force AT LEAST 10e and 2s on condi removal (assuming 2 frontline), and force target swaps. You can strip the ele, but it still has glowstone. You can also interrupt it, but at a 1s cast, you basically have to camp the ele, and due to it being a 5e cast, it can be faked indefinitely until it is FC'd.
4. Nobody likes playing elespike.
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito
While it may be subjective, I'm not aware of any successful game of chance that involves placing a bet, then waiting 28 minutes for the results of a coin flip.
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