How many minion masters do you need?

After the minions, Death magic is quite useless.

Discord on Soul Reaping would be much better for the purpose of bringing multiple copies of Discord.

----------

Quote: Yeah, 7 HPS kinda went through on the great category after I stopped voting it down for beeing crap and left GW a while. RoJ Heroway on the other hand definitely belongs in the great category if you play it with a assassin \ dervish or warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

The only reason discord is still around is because of its bar compression, past popularity and unwillingness to switch from a build that they are accustomed to running even though its fallen as a top tier build. Its called lag (not the connection latency version).

When some people were discording everything in the game, there were people that were just discovering or never heard of Sabway.

I had a few friends that insisted it was impossible to do TotPK without a full b/p and heroes would be slaughtered...

If one says that discordway revolving around 2 minion masters (one main, one half) and AP caller (AP+FH+EVAS+3rd PVE-only skill is a powerful bar to be exact) is the best build, yes, that is totally unnecessary, but no harm to slap a discord on a generic necromancer utility bar (it isn't as if your aren't tossing dozens of conditions and hexes on some poor sod to start with).

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

20 Jan 2012 at 11:08 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz View Post

7HPS and RoJway were around long before the update and don't use Discord. They're also clearly subpar, though.

History thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...475472p11.html

It should be pointed out though that the times in that thread have way more to do with player skill than individual build.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

21 Jan 2012 at 13:52 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

They're also clearly subpar, though.

History thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...475472p11.html

It should be pointed out though that the times in that thread have way more to do with player skill than individual build. People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

21 Jan 2012 at 14:26 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz View Post

People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this. That's not even a build. You're just listing all the possible variations and making weird swaps in the default setup. I mean Pain of Disenchantment Curse + Prot over a MM, are you drunk? Thats the kind of choice you only make in order to feel like an unique snowflake instead of dealing with reality.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

21 Jan 2012 at 15:14 - 48

Fewer minions to slow down and screw up balling

. How is it not a build, when 7 heroes are listed?

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

21 Jan 2012 at 15:59 - 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Fewer minions to slow down and screw up balling

. How is it not a build, when 7 heroes are listed? Because 10 heroes and 500 variations are listed. And you use flagging to avoid heroes screwing up balling.

Dzjudz

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz

21 Jan 2012 at 16:44 - 50

You do realise that the left column of 7 heroes is the team right? The ones on the right are optionals for people who like to use SoGM (slow and not for hero AI) and MM (speed and balling issues) for example. The 500 variations is a little exaggerated. The ESurges can take Fall Back and Flesh of My Flesh, and the RoJs can take Fall Back, Heaven's Delight, Strength of Honor. It's all basic hero skill variation, nothing to be afraid of. I'd suggest you try it instead of the build in post #23.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

21 Jan 2012 at 16:57 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88 View Post

Been messing around with the build planner a bit and ATM im at this

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2117/currentl.png

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Anyone got a good idea about what to use the last slots for? Got a full set of mercs so can grab anything from another nec to mes to SOGM rit but unsure which would be best right now. Swap out inpetitude for Stolen Speed, add either another discord nec or an IV nec

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

23 Jan 2012 at 05:41 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz View Post

People should stop referring to that thread. It's for one mission, and about 3 serious people entered.

Anyway, if you want something a little more focused on direct damage than 7HPS, take a look at this. Ignore the competition in that thread if you want and just look at the screenshots on their own merit. If that teambuild survives severe stress, skipping mobs, intentional overaggro and still packs three copies of "Fall Back!" on non-Mesmer heroes, what do I need Panic / Shared Burden Mesmers and more RoJ Monks for? And if you look at the real difference between the two builds - the Invoke Ele(s) - and consider the fact that Invoke is now nerfed, it's not that much of a leap to see a Discord Necro as a replacement.

7HPS is not a great teambuild, and neither is RoJway (for player Elementalists at least).

By the way I find it really annoying that some people say things like "the MM / spirits / SoGM slows you down" but nobody posts clears with caster primaries and no minions or spirits that aren't easily beaten (often by massive margins) by teambuilds that do include them.

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

23 Jan 2012 at 06:39 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

7HPS is not a great teambuild, and neither is RoJway (for player Elementalists at least).

By the way I find it really annoying that some people say things like "the MM / spirits / SoGM slows you down" but nobody posts clears with caster primaries and no minions or spirits that aren't easily beaten (often by massive margins) by teambuilds that do include them. I agree, if anything was clear after the 7 hero competition it was that SoS and MM heroes had earned their spots. SoGM too in most cases.

mortenya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Oregon, USA

rddt

Rt/

23 Jan 2012 at 20:57 - 54

the only thing i don't like about a SoGM hero is that it feels like spirit's are only up for every other fight if you're moving fast.

for minions, i don't really notice them preventing me from balling, since they're often a bubble away from me when i engage.

Ritbot

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2012

Rt/

27 Jan 2012 at 23:02 - 55

mortenya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2008

Oregon, USA

rddt

Rt/

27 Jan 2012 at 23:29 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritbot

I see a lot of people bashing the 7Hero PSupport build in here yet I'm not seeing any counter-suggestions for Casters. i don't think i've really ever seen anyone post an alternative that was actively bashing the current meta builds. they just say it's crap and anyone who runs it is crap, but don't offer any alternatives.

personally, i'm playing through with a rit, since it's the cool thing to do right now, and i'm using the basics from 7HPS, just i make tweaks here and there to fit what i want in.

my ranger, para, dervish do things a little differently, but their teams don't work for my rit or ele.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

28 Jan 2012 at 00:06 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritbot View Post

I see a lot of people bashing the 7Hero PSupport build in here yet I'm not seeing any counter-suggestions for Casters.

Rojway seems to be the popular alternative for melee but for a Ritualist nothing seems to be leading the pack.

I'm using the 7H build atm with a SoS Rit as the player, hero rit is SoGM and three mesmers. Rest is normal. I've posted a couple for Ele primary:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=14
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10447337.html
And in the screenshot(s) in the history thread.

7HPS is an inferior teambuild, end of story.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

02 Feb 2012 at 15:00 - 58

I swear in the search for the ultimate teambuild my teams are looking more and more like SDM. In fact the latest variant I have includes two Discord Necros, and the best choice of 7 heroes appear to be 2 Rits + 3 Necs + 2 Mesmers. This isn't looking good for Elementalists despite the Elementalist update; the nerf to Invoke Lightning simply hit Air Magic (and by extension Elementalists in general) too hard. Oh well.

enter_the_zone

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2007

02 Feb 2012 at 16:58 - 59

Reading these forums, it's amazing how many people don't seem to understand the entire concept of minions and spirits. The idea isn't to be super-fast, it's to be super-resilient, primarily by aggro control.

Discord can have fairly decent spammable AOE damage via Death Nova and Deathly Swarm while having ridiculous single target spike ability and bar compression for utility. For most HM content it's a ridiculously solid build which packs plenty of punch and allows a number of "empty" (or at least non-contributing) slots, useful for VQing the same crap on multiple accounts at the same time.

Put it this way, a genius build that is 30% or even 50% faster but needs all 8 slots, is still slower than discordway for those who have multiple accounts because we'll be doing that content again and again.

Yeah, it's not going to beat DoA or whatever, but that's what other gimmick team builds are for.

EFGJack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2010

Finland

Pros At Inactivity [bleh]

02 Feb 2012 at 17:55 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Reading these forums, it's amazing how many people don't seem to understand the entire concept of minions and spirits. The idea isn't to be super-fast, it's to be super-resilient, primarily by aggro control. I believe that the people who overlook the damage prevention that minions and spirits provide are doing it on purpose as they're well aware of that hidden protection, and that they also are a little above the average joe in terms of skill, and therefore do not have any need for additional resiliency and thus sacrifice survivability for speed, even if it means that they have to press more than two buttons a vanquish.

But that's just my take on the issue anyhow.

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

02 Feb 2012 at 23:42 - 61

Well, that's something that you hardly can do with any char. I mean, for a warrior player pve is muuuuuch esaier than, let's say, for a Ele(I'm Gwamm an ele and play a lot as Sin now, i know what i'm talking about).

First of all, Physical Dmg Dealer Player > Caster Player. That's it. Splinter (with a good uptime) + WW Attack have more DPS on a balled mob than 2-3 eles spamming 8 dmg spells on recharge. That impacts a lot on your builds, because you can just buff yourself and aim to make stuff dead quick, dropping defence for speed.

Second, aggro control. As meele player, is just simple..flag bck heroes, prot on you (being it PS or Shelther doesn't matter), aggro and walk with a wall on your right. Balled mobs, return to point one: blow them in 3 hits. And don't say to me "PS can make your ele perfect for pulling and balling, or EVAS is good too". It just isn't reliable.

That's why spirits and minions are so popular: not only for the 0-micro level, but for the "Works well enough with anything you are". If you keep using it when playing war, you're not using it as much as you can. But if you're playing a caster those are pretty much mandatory(unless playing a pointlessy damage oriented team for fun or speed, the tipical "Glass cannon", when a single thing goes wrong you'll die. Even more after HM hp boost).

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

04 Feb 2012 at 16:44 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX View Post

As always, it depends on the area. This is OT but I am sure that point is debatable.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

I swear in the search for the ultimate teambuild my teams are looking more and more like SDM. In fact the latest variant I have includes two Discord Necros, and the best choice of 7 heroes appear to be 2 Rits + 3 Necs + 2 Mesmers. That is only if you are constrained by the current available heroes professions. With mercs, I prefer to have more mesmers in my team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortenya

i don't think i've really ever seen anyone post an alternative that was actively bashing the current meta builds. they just say it's crap and anyone who runs it is crap, but don't offer any alternatives. I have been using these: Builds and they have been working well for me so far even in DoA. Depending on the area, I can replace the illusion mesmer with a SoGM rit/Wanderlust/MM when I feel like it.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Feb 2012 at 03:55 - 63

Discordway, referring to a teambuild that gets most of its damage output from three dubiously designed Death-X hybrids taking out one monster at a time with Discord remains as bad an idea as it's always been. Slightly worse even, since Discord was nerfed by the AL->HP change.

Discord as a skill may nonetheless be making a comeback on hero bars for reasons that have little to do with its own merits. Specifically:
(1) The old Invoke-CL hero was killed by nerfs in the last update and needs to be replaced.
(2) Between Masochism and the AL->HP change, Deathly Swarm is more-or-less a replacement for the old CL.
(3) Additionally, Death Magic comes with minions and SR generally allows necros to 8-spec something from a secondary (like Command) without energy problems.
(4) Discord, distasteful as I may find it, is the best elite available for a Death bar if you assume that it's not full-on minions (which would justify OoU) and not speccing high SR (which would justify Icy Veins).
(5) DS-Discord is, at least for now, more-or-less on par with every other potential replacement for Invoke-CL that's been suggested.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

05 Feb 2012 at 04:10 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(5) DS-Discord is, at least for now, more-or-less on par with every other potential replacement for Invoke-CL that's been suggested. It's pretty clearly inferior to EA Fire against monsters without serious armour vs. Fire. It's also constrained severely by the lack of good non-minion skills in Death Magic.

It's certainly possible that I'm restrained by not having mercenaries. A third Dom Mesmer could do a lot that no other profession can do, although it'll have trouble running Command shouts / prots.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

05 Feb 2012 at 07:50 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's pretty clearly inferior to EA Fire against monsters without serious armour vs. Fire. It's also constrained severely by the lack of good non-minion skills in Death Magic.

It's certainly possible that I'm restrained by not having mercenaries. A third Dom Mesmer could do a lot that no other profession can do, although it'll have trouble running Command shouts / prots. Minds posting your EA fire?

Also, would anyone (not just Jeydra) care to explain where all this damage Dom mesmers are supposed to do is coming from? Because I just don't see it. E-Surge is ~100 damage on a ~10 sec recharge accounting for FC. Mistrust is similar damage on a little better recharge if you can count on a quick trigger. CoF is worse damage on the same recharge. Ditto Unnatural, and it's AoE is conditional and adjacent. Spiritual Pain is single-target and not huge damage. Overload is dodgy with hero AI. Wastrels stuff is hopeless with hero AI. What am I missing here?

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

05 Feb 2012 at 09:06 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon View Post

I have read mixed reviews on heroes's usage of Overload. From my own observations, heroes seem to use it just fine. However, they do miss the direct damage effect sometimes as they miss with their interrupts from time to time also.

Wastrel's Demise is fine since it is a hex and heroes would not cast the same hex if one is already active on the target. Wastrel's Worry is the one that you need to worry about with heroes, pun intended.

Overall with FC, the damage from a dom mesmer is quite effective since the skills take turns to recharge, it is not like they all go into recharge cycle at the same time and the mesmer has nothing to cast for a long time. The mesmers are more limited by available energy most of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's certainly possible that I'm restrained by not having mercenaries. A third Dom Mesmer could do a lot that no other profession can do, although it'll have trouble running Command shouts / prots. I have read your post. If you really want an UA in your caster's team, maybe you can draw some ideas from my triple mesmer+UA build here

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007