Team Build: 7H Triple Mesmer Melee Support. V4

Version 3.1! Now with optionals!


Version 4! Now with RoJ!

Wont Xinrae's Weapon overwrite splinter? I never take that elite as a melee char.

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142

I just can't decide wether I want to use that slot as a UA, Smiter or Nec Resto. I change it pretty much daily. How about an UA Smiter?

Also, the IV bar < ER protter. 1 dmg skill isn't worth making an entire backline bar that much weaker.

Your SoS/Resto is missing Spirit Siphon. Ditch the Res.

I'd also replace Shadow of Fear/SoLS with Masochism.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

How about an UA Smiter?

Also, the IV bar < ER protter. 1 dmg skill isn't worth making an entire backline bar that much weaker.

Your SoS/Resto is missing Spirit Siphon. Ditch the Res.

I'd also replace Shadow of Fear/SoLS with Masochism. UA doesn't buff DF healing which is what smiters are all about and maintaining SoH + UA = 2 pips of regen.

ER Protter is vulnerable to enchantment removal. That IV can spam constantly and not run out of energy even with 3 pips. IV is a very nice finisher for spikes. Kills anything that didn't die initially.

Siphon without micro is meh. I've watched his energy and he is fine.

Masochism isn't worth it for 1 more minion and a bit of Death Nova damage. Most of the bar is Curses.

Lose Panic for another eSurge imo. You have plenty of shutdown just with CoF/Mistrust*2, I see no point in not taking more pewpew. Maybe replace Xinrae's Weapon for Discord or Toxic Chill; something that won't RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up Splinter.

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142 UA doesn't buff DF healing which is what smiters are all about and maintaining SoH + UA = 2 pips of regen.

ER Protter is vulnerable to enchantment removal. That IV can spam constantly and not run out of energy even with 3 pips. IV is a very nice finisher for spikes. Kills anything that didn't die initially. By UA Smiter I meant a hybrid bar. Something akin to this. Now obviously a hybrid bar is a lot weaker than the ones from which it is taking elements (Dmg/spot heals of smiters, party healing of UAs etc), but since you don't need full UA bars nor do you need full Smiter bars (hence why you are switching between them), this trade of raw power for hero-space is a worthwhile one. You can now take less rezzes, have covered party healing, a top-notch SoH, and can drop FB on any of your Mesmers for better pewpew (Clumsiness, perhaps?).

ER is indeed vulnerable to enchantment hate. I have however only seen it fail against Tranquility. If enchant hate is -that- intense where you play, why'd ya still bring SoH?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142 Masochism isn't worth it for 1 more minion and a bit of Death Nova damage. Most of the bar is Curses. It gives +2 SR too, for less need of e-management (read: SoLS). Shadow of Fear isn't worth it when you have a full Ineptitude Mesmer (and hopefully Aegis if you switch to ER); not to mention you are balling so all enemy physicals are on a protted 164 armor Warrior.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142 That UA bar is major ugly. I'm just going to ignore it tbh. Yes. And I have provided reasons for its ugliness.

It is a hybrid because there are small holes in the roles your team build tries to fill (hence your hesitation between a Smiter, an UA and a Resto). The holes are nothing major, otherwise your team build would be pretty bad if there's 3 bars' worth of stuff to be had and only 1 party slot to do it. The build tries to accomplish all these roles to the extend that is needed. I can assure you that the UA and healing parts would be quite adequate if you switch the IV to an ER (Infuse is a biggie here). Ofc this build is far from a Smiter's dmg, but so are UA and Resto. This build fills your UA and healing needs and also provides your with SoH + FB, hence why I consider it is adequate considering your team.

For someone who uses unconventional builds (N/Mo Protter) you're quite quick to disregard other people's unconventional builds

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142 There is no reason to take ER and open yourself up to ench hate when a Necro does the same thing without that downside. I'm not saying you will lose it often but you have a con with no pro. I kinda addressed it up there, but here it is again: Infuse. Infuse + SoS/Resto = enough spot heals for your party. Which allows for ugly UA/Smiters that don't carry the spot heals of UA or Resto but fills the other holes nicely.

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142

I'm going to update the team with Never Surrender over Unnatural Signet soon IMO don't. There is such a thing as too much defense, but more pew pew is always good. If your team does fine without NS then you don't need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.142 I wouldn't drop SoLS for Maso and if I were to drop Shadow of haste I would be more tempted to take Barbs, Rigor Mortis or Defile Defenses to push through areas with heavy healing and protters. I also use a Sin rather than a War so I have less armour and Shadow of Haste is lovely if I get ench hated. Hmm I'd suggest the same treatment as above: take something more offensive if it's not needed. Your team build isn't that different from the one I've been using (although mine is tailored for c-spacing on a melee so you don't see MoP anywhere), so I can tell from personal experience that defense shouldn't be an issue. For reference:

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom Yes. And I have provided reasons for its ugliness.

It is a hybrid because there are small holes in the roles your team build tries to fill (hence your hesitation between a Smiter, an UA and a Resto). The holes are nothing major, otherwise your team build would be pretty bad if there's 3 bars' worth of stuff to be had and only 1 party slot to do it. The build tries to accomplish all these roles to the extend that is needed I don't need all 3 roles. I am happy atm with SoH on the prot so I can keep spot heals. UA is nice but never strictly speaking needed. I'm not indecisive because I need a crappy combination. I'm indecisive because they all have pros and cons.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom I can assure you that the UA and healing parts would be quite adequate if you switch the IV to an ER (Infuse is a biggie here). Ofc this build is far from a Smiter's dmg, but so are UA and Resto. This build fills your UA and healing needs and also provides your with SoH + FB, hence why I consider it is adequate considering your team. Why move spot heals onto the prot rather than the spot healer? For the sake of it? The current build is fine. I have SoH and Fall Back elsewhere. No point shifting my whole team around a sub par build.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom For someone who uses unconventional builds (N/Mo Protter) you're quite quick to disregard other people's unconventional builds I don't really think of my IV Prot as unconventional. I needed prots and heros spam them like shit and rape their own blue bar so I took the class with the best built in E-manegment and I put them on that. If I went E/Mo prots I would get a worse SoH or Infuse/breeze because its split already to get use out of the elite.

Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I kinda addressed it up there, but here it is again: Infuse. Infuse + SoS/Resto = enough spot heals for your party. Which allows for ugly UA/Smiters that don't carry the spot heals of UA or Resto but fills the other holes nicely. 2x Resto is enough spot heals for my party too. No point taking a jack of all trades UA that wont actually help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom IMO don't. There is such a thing as too much defense, but more pew pew is always good. If your team does fine without NS then you don't need it. My team also "does fine" without unnatural signet. You could take out half the skills and in most areas it would "do fine". Discordway still "does fine". That doesn't mean we shouldn't look for something better. Quote: Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom Hmm I'd suggest the same treatment as above: take something more offensive if it's not needed. Your team build isn't that different from the one I've been using (although mine is tailored for c-spacing on a melee so you don't see MoP anywhere), so I can tell from personal experience that defense shouldn't be an issue. For reference: You tell me not to take so much defence then ping a team with less damage and more defense. This quote war shit is getting stupidly long so i'm just going to say I wont take a UA smiter. I hope I have explained why.

1 SYG is enough, you don't really need two.

And I think Shield Guardian is a pretty weak skill, why not Aegis?

Quote: Originally Posted by Googi

1 SYG is enough, you don't really need two.

And I think Shield Guardian is a pretty weak skill, why not Aegis? 2 SYG's so it's up all the time. They will have command anyway for my perma fall back.

Take a look at the Retroway thread for talk about SG. I don't really want to copy paste it.

Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142

2 SYG's so it's up all the time. They will have command anyway for my perma fall back.

Take a look at the Retroway thread for talk about SG. I don't really want to copy paste it. I still think it's not needed when you have Save Yourselves, assuming you can have it up most of the time, but you've made your point.

As for SG: Fair enough, I read the stuff on Retroway and it seems a valid choice afterall.

Quote: Originally Posted by Googi

I still think it's not needed when you have Save Yourselves, assuming you can have it up most of the time, but you've made your point.

As for SG: Fair enough, I read the stuff on Retroway and it seems a valid choice afterall. I agree two is overkill. One is nice for the beginning of the battle while SY is charging, but after the first 4 seconds, it becomes largely redundant since SY should be easily chained on a sin or warrior. SG is definitely a decent choice.

1. The rit is going to run dry of energy without Siphon. Probably remove his rez to fit it in.

2. I'd drop PoD, move IV to where PoD was, and turn the N/Mo into an E/Mo ER build with similar skills.

3. Also, you won't need Foul Feast with 2 copies of MBS eating 4 conditions per cast, so you don't have to worry about finding a new home for it.

4. At some point in the future I'm going to try to present the numbers for why SF eles outdamage E-Surge mesmers since the 1/5/2012 patch. But I'll save that for another day. Besides, it would kinda mess up the "triple mesmer" part of the build name.

5. Leaving the mesmers as mesmers for now, you probably don't need to spec so much Command on two of them. 2 copies of SYG are maintainable at 5; Never Surrender hits the last breakpoint you're going to hit at 6; So you're really only looking at uptime on FB. 7-7-6 gives 100% uptime. 6-6-6 (or 4-4-4 or 5-5-5) gives 18/20sec uptime. So, I say to drop two of them to 5 Command and pick up a point of Insp (+2e on Power Drain) or FC, and put NS on whichever one benefits least from the change.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chthon

1. The rit is going to run dry of energy without Siphon. Probably remove his rez to fit it in.

2. I'd drop PoD, move IV to where PoD was, and turn the N/Mo into an E/Mo ER build with similar skills. This is the only bit a disagree with. Ive been watching the rit and he never has energy troubles. (I added it in anyway because everyone is saying this)

If I drop PoD and take IV on my Curses necro then to get any real use out of it I will want to shift that whole bar to have more Soul Reaping which would mean less damage from MoP which is the main reason he exists. Give me an example of an ER with SoH. I'm not sold yet.

Triple defensive spirits on an ST is generally unnecessary, and can cause the AI to exhaust ST much more often, leaving you without prots for long periods of time. I'd drop Dissonance or Union from the bar (or both, since Shelter is really the only necessary spirit) and bring more utility along. If you drop both, Signet of Creation can also go. Typically I'll run a 11+1 SP and 12+4 Communing spec, which gives me 6 points to put into a utility line like Curses or Inspiration, or lets me work some extra damage in from Domination signets. If you don't want to lower your Rit Specs, though, EFGJack's variant will also work well (found here: OACiAyk8gNtehzjJ1ca6MtmA).

Also, I don't know if it works differently for you, but my Mesmers were always terrible (or much too good, perhaps) when it came to spamming Overload. They'd drain their energy rapidly, and that was without trying to pack Fall Back in there. Unnatural Signet seems like the better option to me, since even though its recharge is higher, it'll help make sure your Mesmers have the energy to use their important shutdown skills as soon as they're needed,while still providing consistent AoE damage.

Also, I know you've said it works, but Life on the SoS bar along with PwK and heals and Splinter...I'll trust your judgment and experience and try to change it, but I'd personally be nervous running it in upper-level areas in a team with only one other hybrid healer. It just seems too easy for a hero with 30 energy and high-cost/frequency spells to cast something at the wrong time and leave themselves helpless while the party's under pressure.

Hope this was helpful!

The Discord hero is a bit odd. The long casting time on Animate Bone Minions might mess up healing, and you're lacking Death Nova for any aoe damage. A melee player shouldn't need both ST and minions anyway. I'd drop the MM, personally.
Also, no e-management on the SoS is madness. Admittedly, the ai is quite poor with Spirit Siphon, but with the addition of the ST, the SoS hero will have a larger pool to draw from.

I am going to try it with a little change to the discord hero. I'd like to see if an explosive growth rit benefits from the lowered armor. The discord heroe seems a bit out of place.

I can put your minds at rest about the SoS bar in the second team. It's a necro primary for the energy and to prevent this being a merc team :P

I'd be interested to see what you would do with the discord bar. Nothing else was doing that good (Xinrae removes splinter) and Discord is good clean up. I take a sin as the player bar so my bleeds + mesmer overload are often enough to meet the req's and provide some good damage. I'll play around with AoTL and dropping animate bone minions after the event ends.

^^^^^Just before I posted this I thought about IV. Found a decent replacement I guess, minions will probably be gone though.

I don't have Death Nova on the second bar because it's a bit risky on one of your main healers imo. They have a habit of using it rather than healing. I also like having minions for sort of locking mobs is against walls and corners for easy spikes.


EDIT: For a bar with 15 Soul Reaping and SoLS would I be expecting too much if I took Recup?