Team Build: Z-Way | Z-Merc Edition | (Update 3.0)

Its is not some random generated setup, its well thought of the pro's and con's compared to other hero setups containing minions, spirits, paragons and other stuff that reduces your team's efficiency. (yeah, you heard me) Cocky lol!

If you are open to suggestions, let me point out some possible improvements.

The illusion mesmers have 3 energy management skills while the skill bar contains only one or two 10 energy skills, and includes 3 signets. Also, waste not want not is not one of your emanagement skills, while it is definitely one of the better ones out there.

The two eles are a bit problematic because they are very weak mesmers. You would be better off letting them be necros if you want secondary mesmers so badly. Soul reaping + signet of lost souls should give you the needed energy and frees your elite.

On your ST, I'd drop displacement and spirit's gift. Displacement eats your charges of soul twisting like crazy, which should be reserved for the more important shelter. Spirit's gift is a poor skill for a backline character as it won't be party healing much. Replace it with vital weapon which is a more-or-less compulsory skill for Soul Twisters, especially with caster heavy teams.

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

20 Nov 2014 at 16:24 - 4

On your ST, I'd drop displacement and spirit's gift. Displacement eats your charges of soul twisting like crazy, which should be reserved for the more important shelter. Spirit's gift is a poor skill for a backline character as it won't be party healing much. Replace it with vital weapon which is a more-or-less compulsory skill for Soul Twisters, especially with caster heavy teams. Vital weapon may look good, but it gets cast on all party members which then eats constantly 5 energy.
The more health you get, the more damage you take before Shelter cuts the maximum of 10%.
Spirits Gift is indeed not in all situations noticeable present, but sometimes you dont have to flag at all or are within the ''area'' range.
Then it starts to do party-wide heals, and condition removal while shes just spamming prots.

The illusion mesmers have 3 energy management skills while the skill bar contains only one or two 10 energy skills, and includes 3 signets. Also, waste not want not is not one of your emanagement skills, while it is definitely one of the better ones out there.

The reason it has that much energy management is because with 8 FC you get -24% Recharge for spells and signets and -44% with con-set.
Because it only has 2 or 3 offensive skills, these will be used everytime they refresh cooldown which burns energy.
Signets and Pdrain will benefit from recharge aswell, which this mechanic is made for : ''Heroes can detect enemy skill activation, and will only use interrupts which are appropriate to the skill type. They have no reaction time; their interrupts are never late.'' - gwwiki

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster View Post

The two eles are a bit problematic because they are very weak mesmers. You would be better off letting them be necros if you want secondary mesmers so badly. Soul reaping + signet of lost souls should give you the needed energy and frees your elite. Here's the catch, necromancer's will get 16/18 SR.
Thats all good but only functions if stuff around them dies, at long boss fights stuff dont always die if there are any near it in the first place (duncan?).
And still will have 12 domination, just like my ele's.
However ele's on the other hand are not bound to soul reaping and have infinite energy by themself due just two enchants, that always get recast emidiatly when cooldown wears off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

20 Nov 2014 at 21:09 - 5

I like it. As someone who mains monk I'm always on the lookout of hero builds that synergize well with a monk player. Will give it a try.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

21 Nov 2014 at 00:25 - 6

You don't like more health because it means less damage reduction from shelter...
...yet you recommend +60 HP staves and survivor insignias instead of +armor items and +armor insignias?

In sum, your arguments don't hold up in the slightest. Your failure to realize that fast casting does not affect signets and lack of WNWN shows you are not familiar with mesmers.
The +60hp staff and hp combo on chest is to migitate the loss of hp due to superiour runes, as Shelter is standard not cast pre-fights by hero AI results in you taking damage before Shelter gets put up.
Having only like 415hp then will probably two shot you in bad scenario's.

Vital Weapon gets spammed, it gives you extra HP you dont need (with staffs) while the ST losing precious energy it needs to keep its spirits up, therefore a no-no and just waste of energy imo.

Indeed, Signets do not benefit from FC recharge wise (assumed they did ggwp), but do benefit from Essence of Celerity.
But WNWN is probably a matter of preferrace, and here is why.
(hence ideal situation cast every CD + crude maths inc)

Ether Signet will in a 60 second time gain 34 energy, with a 15 second downtime to spare.
WNWN will in a 60 second time gain 30 energy (5 casts in 60 sec with -24% recharge)

the diffrence is minimal and is only a matter of 4 energy, in short fights.

In a 3 minute time-span :
Ether will gain 68 energy.
WNWN will gain 90 energy.

In the long run, WNWN may be better.
So if you want to bash so hard on facts that WNWN is better, then feel free to do so.
I just post my setup here, as what works for me during my time using this setup.
I prefer Ether being used without requiring downsides, while WNWN requires no actions at all, which in PvE all that enemy's do are either auto-attack, or casting spells.
So WNWN may not always gain the energy it should get shown in the ''perfect situation'' chart above.

Thanks again for bringing up the point and pointing out on signet recharge, cheers.

This Setup is designed for HEALING profs, Change is possible see : Build Breakdown. And yet it's stacked so much defense one is left wondering why this statement exists.

If the player is meant to be a healing profession (i.e. a Monk) then why does it have a N/Rt healer? With three single target heals?
Surely a SoS Rit with MBAS and Spirit Light would be sufficient? I'm sure the player can plug the gaps. Ok, you'd have to switch Razah back to a Rt/X, but do you really need two Ineptitude guys?

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

21 Nov 2014 at 07:07 - 7

Meh you force me to provide a long response

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light View Post

An effective build is not about having 3 signets (of which two are emanagement), pdrain, a rez, and 3 offensive skills which are not highly spammable.

By using so much energy management and so few offensive skills, you are not getting the most out of your mesmers.

Quote:

8 FC you get -24% Recharge for spells and signets and -44% with con-set.

Signet cooldowns are not reduced by fast casting.

Quote: Here's the catch, necromancer's will get 16/18 SR.
Thats all good but only functions if stuff around them dies, at long boss fights stuff dont always die if there are any near it in the first place (duncan?).
And still will have 12 domination, just like my ele's.
However ele's on the other hand are not bound to soul reaping and have infinite energy by themself due just two enchants, that always get recast emidiatly when cooldown wears off. I cringe when reading this...

Understand that Ether renewal only really works on a prot ele with skills like spirit bond, prot spirit, infuse, and other short cooldown 10 energy skills. Your ele/mesmer does not possess enough spammable high energy skills to justify Ether Renewal.

Quote:

necromancer's will get 16/18 SR.
Thats all good but only functions if stuff around them dies, at long boss fights stuff dont always die if there are any near it in the first place (duncan?). Getting stuff to die around you is sort of the point of this game

If you want to bring ether renewal specifically for a boss fight, because the situation calls for it, then do it by all means.

For general purposes though, ether renewal is wasteful on that skill bar.

Quote:

Vital weapon may look good, but it gets cast on all party members which then eats constantly 5 energy. That is kinda the point of the skill

Quote:

The more health you get, the more damage you take before Shelter cuts the maximum of 10%. You don't like more health because it means less damage reduction from shelter...

...yet you recommend +60 HP staves and survivor insignias instead of +armor items and +armor insignias?

In sum, your arguments don't hold up in the slightest. Your failure to realize that fast casting does not affect signets and lack of WNWN shows you are not familiar with mesmers.

l2p

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

21 Nov 2014 at 11:18 - 8

First of all, i appreciate you for taking time to responde in my thread to give (positive?) feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster View Post

Understand that Ether renewal only really works on a prot ele with skills like spirit bond, prot spirit, infuse, and other short cooldown 10 energy skills. Your ele/mesmer does not possess enough spammable high energy skills to justify Ether Renewal.
If you want to bring ether renewal specifically for a boss fight, because the situation calls for it, then do it by all means.
For general purposes though, ether renewal is wasteful on that skill bar.

This is indeed you're opinion, in my opinion Ether Renewal cover's enough of the spammage Wrastler's will cause that will drain non mesmer within the first 20 seconds of a fight.
Therefore, ER is always a steady energy management when in some situations it simply means your necro runs out of energy.
And therefore, does not require you to change proffessions unless you just want to have a necro for whatever legitimate reason you think is viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

21 Nov 2014 at 13:48 - 9

I would call it constructive feedback as I am suggesting improvements.

Quote:

The +60hp staff and hp combo on chest is to migitate the loss of hp due to superiour runes, as Shelter is standard not cast pre-fights by hero AI results in you taking damage before Shelter gets put up. Having only like 415hp then will probably two shot you in bad scenario's. You need to micro shelter and cast it before the battle, like people normally do.

Therefore, ER is always a steady energy management when in some situations it simply means your necro runs out of energy.

No, ER is not always up. When a 30second cooldown elite enchantment meets enchantment removal... you will wish for soulreaping.

You could argue that you can interrupt it, but that is not always going to happen, especially in harder places.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light View Post

And therefore, does not require you to change proffessions unless you just want to have a necro for whatever legitimate reason you think is viable.

I'd have thought that a build, with such a focus on interrupts, would not mind Panic. This what a necro/mesmer could bring to the table instead of Ether Renewal. The wastrels skills especially have great synergy with panic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light

Also, vital weapon leaves more room for bringing 40/40 equipment, which greatly increases your build's efficiency.

Vital Weapon gets spammed, it gives you extra HP you dont need (with staffs) while the ST losing precious energy it needs to keep its spirits up, therefore a no-no and just waste of energy imo. This precious energy you talk of, and your need to fill everyone's bar with energy management skills, can be easily fixed.

Drop Icy veins from the N/Rt and replace with BiP. (with either 8 or 13 blood)

If you still want to bring icy veins, take it on a necro/mesmer who, aside from 16 soul reaping and signet of lost souls, is now backed by BiP as well.

The BiP will fill any holes in your mesmers' energy needs as well as the Soul twister's.

So you know, your build could have potential, but it is not optimized.

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

21 Nov 2014 at 14:28 - 10

No, ER is not always up. When a 30second cooldown elite enchantment meets enchantment removal... you will wish for soulreaping.
You could argue that you can interrupt it, but that is not always going to happen, especially in harder places.

The downtime will only be 5 seconds in from start to end, aside if Ench removal may occure it still has twice the amount of energy the necro has and thus can survive the downtime with such energy pool, while able to regen fully by itself when its recast.

Quote:

I'd have thought that a build, with such a focus on interrupts, would not mind Panic. This what a necro/mesmer could bring to the table instead of Ether Renewal. Is why you can drop one Ineptitude for Shared Burden, or keep Ineptitude damage over Esurge so he can take Panic, while still maintaining 16 Attri.
Its flexible, without having to roll necromancer.

Thanks for the constructive feedback and your time.

Drop Icy Veins from the N/Rt and replace with BiP. (with either 8 or 13 blood)
If you still want to bring icy veins, take it on a necro/mesmer who, aside from 16 soul reaping and signet of lost souls, is now backed by BiP as well.
The BiP will fill any holes in your mesmers' energy needs as well as the Soul twister's.
So you know, your build could have potential, but it is not optimized. Blood is Power has been considered, but made excessive due the fact everyone is self sufficiënt.
Aside of the danger that a healer may cut himself down to 1-33%hp is a factor why its not placed in its build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyran Hellcaster

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

21 Nov 2014 at 20:59 - 11

so what have we learned? mistrust opopie

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

22 Nov 2014 at 08:45 - 12

Blood is Power has been considered, but made excessive due the fact everyone is self sufficiënt.
Aside of the danger that a healer may cut himself down to 1-33%hp is a factor why its not placed in its build. You should try BiP before discounting it.

This is not GvG where everyone needs to be self sufficient, it's just PvE.

BiP is like putting your heroes on steroids> it allows for more energy intensive skill bars and/or reduces the need for personal energy-management. In sum, greater offence.

The downtime will only be 5 seconds in total, aside if Ench removal may occure it still has twice the amount of energy the necro has and thus can survive the downtime with such energy pool, while able to regen fully by itself when its recast.

ER can be removed and is an elite.

Soulreaping cannot be removed and is not an elite.

How much clearer does it need to be?

The problem is you overpromoted those ele/mesmers in your original post, so now you can only be stubborn about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light

Is why you can drop one Ineptitude for Shared Burden, or keep Ineptitude damage over Esurge so he can take Panic, while still maintaining 16 Attri.
Its flexible, without having to roll necromancer. It does not matter how you rearrange the other mesmers' elites.

At the end of the day you are still not using the most efficient setup.

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

22 Nov 2014 at 10:34 - 13

I hope i'v given plenty of reasons of why this setup looks like it is and not like a necromancer team that has other benefits from using, that unfortunately just dont stack up against Ele's in this situation. Period.

Yeah, it does matter how you can arrange mesmer elites, they give you variation while keeping >16< in the attribute, and you want to run illusion or domination Necro's?

Its always smart to give your healer a skill so he can Seppuku himself, the Guy that keeps ur party alive, great choice lol.

Simply put, if you dont like this take a necro over ER and be inefficiënt.
Run discord, SOS, panic, two heals and a sandwich for all i care.

Discordway sounds more to your liking.
Just dont get into an discussion if you cant give me a constructive way of improving this setup aside from yelling that Soul Reaping wins everything, that just wont do for me.

This point of this setup is to faceroll pve without having to use diffrent builds, need of corpses, or other profession hero's.

Thanks for your time.

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

22 Nov 2014 at 13:37 - 14

Vague statements do not make your viewpoint any less unbelievable.

Quote:

Yeah, it does matter how you can arrange mesmer elites, they give you variation while keeping >16< in the attribute, and you want to run illusion or domination Necro's?

You are misrepresenting my argument by providing an answer that has no bearing on what I said.

I said it does not matter how you rearrange the mesmer elites, because it would not be necessary to rearrange them in the first place when using necros instead of eles. One or two necros can bring panic, allowing the mesmers to remain unchanged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light View Post

Its always smart to give your healer a skill so he can Seppuku himself, the Guy that keeps ur party alive, great choice lol. A N/Rt BiP Healer is actually a legit build, and a great ally for a Soul twister. See these threads for some examples:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...t10533938.html

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/r...t10527352.html

You need to stop talking when you have no clue about the subject

Discordway sounds more to your liking.
Just dont get into an discussion if you cant give me a constructive way of improving this setup aside from yelling that Soul Reaping wins everything, that just wont do for me. I am providing constructive criticism but you are seeing red at the moment because I knifed your ele/mesmers.

Since you have had problems understanding fastcasting before, maybe you should read the description of soulreaping next.

This point of this setup is to faceroll pve without having to use diffrent builds, need of corpses, or other profession hero's. I don't fully understand what you are trying to say, but it sounds like you limited which professions you will use when making your build, even if there are better options out there.

Othienka

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2011

[Last]

22 Nov 2014 at 14:39 - 15

From what I gather, this build is designed to be a constant output of damage while keeping your casters safe, without relying on external factors. Soul Reaping is a great attribute that depends on actually face-rolling/deaths, thus it will underperform in situations on which said deaths don't occur as expected. Taking that into account, its clear why he proffered the ether eles over necro builds that don't synergize as well with the purpose of the team-build.

Zephyr of Light

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2013

In Z-Way We Trust.

[PhD]-[?????????]-[pupu]

22 Nov 2014 at 15:05 - 16

See these threads for some examples:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...t10533938.html
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/r...t10527352.html

You need to stop talking when you have no clue about the subject

You're comparing apples with oranges of two whole diffrent teams.
If you want nostalgia then keep your Rspike in HA not PvE

Tyran Hellcaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

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Mo/W

23 Nov 2014 at 12:48 - 17

Othienka, you kinda proved my point completely...

Like you say, this build is meant to steamroller pve and therefore soulreaping is ideal. However, you then say soulreaping (and, inherently, the 11 energy per 8 seconds from signet of lost souls) is more situational for this build than an enchantment with a 30 second cooldown, which can be stripped..? Need I say it again, ER takes up two elite slots which are better used for more offensive capabilities. I guess it can boil down to where you go. Easier places tend to have less enchantment removal, while harder places usually punish enchantment users more. At any rate, the dom skill bar proposed is not highly energy intensive; the ER ele/mesmers basically don't drop much below 90 energy, and they keep hitting the max of 100-odd energy when the enchantment is up. Such a filled energy pool may look nice, but it is kinda wasted potential.

Ether renewal does have its place though, but that is with an ele/monk that makes use of skills that are truly energy demanding. Such an ele can spam big energy skills like spirit bond, prot spirit, infuse health, reverse hex and/or convert hexes. In this case Ether Renewal shines as such crazy amounts of energy production are necessary.

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Zephyr, it is difficult to reply to your last post, because it has been edited so many times lol.

Fortunately, screencaps of no less than 5 different versions of your post have been saved. They can be found here:http://s2.postimg.org/ryqytkscp/zeph...rsions_1_5.jpg.

This compels me to be courteous and provide a response to each edited version.

Version 1: Quote:

And you're showing me as an example 5 rangers?, with no interrupts or actual party wide benefit?
And a HB with class issue's when UA can give +69% Healing.

Lol, please stop wasting my time.

The first version is hardly intelligible and appears to have no bearing on the subject discussed in this thread. It looks as though it has been written in a fit of rage and I can understand why it was quickly changed.

Nevertheless, I will attempt to respond based on what I estimate is being said:

The point of those links to other threads provided by myself were to show that a N/Rt BiP Healer is feasible.

It was not the point to recieve your 100% objective comparison to those 8man builds from another thread. If you have an improvement suggestion for a build from another thread, you could post it there

.

This saves you derailing this discussion, which is about how redundant your ele/mesmers are.

Version 2: Quote:

And you're showing me as an example 5 rangers?, with no interrupts or actual party wide benefit?
And a HB with class issue's when UA can give +69% Healing.

Oh, lets sum that up against 5 rangers shall we.

1x Party Wide Block
1x Party Wide Damage Reduction
1x Party Wide 10% hp loss cap
1x AoE Weakness
2x Condition Removal
2x Hex Removal
2x AoE Blind
3x Ressurection
3x Skill Rupts
6x Melee Rupts
12x Spell Rupts
20x AoE Damage

Lol, please stop wasting my time.

This version is supposed to be an improvement over the previous one but it is perhaps more difficult to understand

. A list of sorts has been added but it is unclear why. Something about rangers is said, although I have yet to see rangers mentioned in this thread.

Version 3: Quote: