"Sealed Deck" Tournaments. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 19:50 - 1

Back when I used to play M:tG, we'd occasionally engage in sealed deck tournaments where each player purchased a random assortment of cards (normally a starter and two boosters) or something like that and was given about ten minutes to construct a deck out of that before being thrust into play.

It was really fun. :d

I'd like to see something similar done with Guild Wars, considering the number of parallels made with M:tG.

While I'm not sure how far to extend the randomization (do we randomize classes? skills?), I'm fairly certain items need to be randomized--IE: at start, teams are given a random item drop and have to customize as best they can with that.

I think it'd be interesting.

Jana

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Knights of the Silver Flame

Mo/Me

12 May 2005 at 20:08 - 2

I REALLY like this idea. Alot.

Jana

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 20:11 - 3

You have no idea how painful it's been waiting for someone to comment on this. Constantly refreshing.

Considering the focus on skill, I think it'd be interesting to see how players can make do with what they HAVE to work with, not what they WANT to work with. Well, that, and teams practically have to work together to coordinate the randomly assigned loot -AND- classes/skills, assuming those are randomized as well.

- edit -

I think it all should be randomized.

After all, what is skill if it only comes down to items?

Sam Katha

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

Canada

Furniture Liberation Army

N/Me

12 May 2005 at 20:15 - 4

Actually I like this idea too. The most fun I had playing M:tG was when my friends and I first started and we had limited cards availiable.

Soul Monarch

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

In the between.

Heros Etc.

Me/N

12 May 2005 at 20:19 - 5

I remember sealed deck tournaments.

If it could be implemented in a way that translated well into Guild Wars gameplay, I think it's a great idea.

It was always fun knowing that sometimes you'd just end up with a crappy set up. Especially because sometimes you'd get lucky and own everyone six ways to Tuesday.

Flatliner

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Legion of Gallantry

E/Me

12 May 2005 at 20:21 - 6

Completely Pre-Made build tournament? That would be fun

I miss the days of magic.. It was ruined with all those new abilities and decks though. I stopped playing when 5th Edition came out..

Devil's Dictionary

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Presumed missing...

Me/N

12 May 2005 at 20:25 - 7

It's a very good idea and would add some more flavour to the game yet some sort of coherance should be present. Assuming you are playing R/E, would you like to end up with skill from each of the seven attributes at the same time? I'd say, you should be able to do either of the following:
A) Have a larger pool of skills in order to create your set.
B) Have 4 to 6 player-chosen skills and 6 to 4 random.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 20:25 - 8

.. eh. I'm not familiar with "completely pre-made built" tournament.

As I explained above (I'm not sure if it's what you meant), there would be a random assignment of classes, skills, and items (I think), and each team would have X amount of time to figure out a gameplan before starting.

M:tG.. I entered.. right about.. I forget the title, but it had the little palm tree symbol?.. the Urza block was my favourite, and I stopped when they went into this new set, with equipable items and stuff. WAY too powerful.

I think it's the curse of the game that it constantly has to reinvent itself in order to stay alive, but does so at the cost of old players.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 20:30 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEATH AT THE DOOR

It's a very good idea and would add some more flavour to the game yet some sort of coherance should be present. Assuming you are playing R/E, would you like to end up with skill from each of the seven attributes at the same time? I'd say, you should be able to do either of the following:
A) Have a larger pool of skills in order to create your set.
B) Have 4 to 6 player-chosen skills and 6 to 4 random.

I'm not sure how skill division would work, let alone whether or not choosing class would be an option.

However, class aside, I insist on complete randomization of skills, though certainly enough skills provided (as you suggest) that there could be at least some workable strategy, even if it won't be the best.

I figure skills would be randomly selected in this format: no less than X for any one attribute, but no more than Y for any one attribute. However, no more than Z total skills will be provided.

In other words, you'll have a total randomization of Z skills, and those'll be spread in a way to provide at least X for any one attribute, but no more than Y.

- Studio

PS: I'm reluctant to flesh this out in fear that I might scare people off.

dorn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

12 May 2005 at 20:36 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studio Ghibli

I'm fairly certain items need to be randomized--IE: at start, teams are given a random item drop and have to customize as best they can with that.

Random items? What would warriors do if they got a sucky weapon? As if DPS isn't low enough in this game as is.

I can see random skills and perhaps a choice of full damage weapons but random items sounds pretty iffy.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 20:44 - 11

They'd make do.

Seriously, though, the fun of sealed deck is making do with what you have, and coming out on top despite the obvious disadvantages. Well, that, and the luck of drawing a really sweet card--and, on top of that, basing your deck around it.

I figure item spreads will be low-medium (with a focus on medium) and a few highs tossed in on either side.

- edit -

This is, of course, my opinion. I have relatively little experience with GW PvP (Academy mission, beta PVP), so more higher-end weapons might be warranted, with REALLY NICE rares few and far inbetween.

Sausaletus Rex

Death From Above

Join Date: Dec 2004

12 May 2005 at 22:23 - 12

I do like this idea and, once upon a time, I entertained the idea of setting up a tournament/competition for characters with only starting armor and skills. The main problem, though, is policing things. How do you make sure that everyone involved is following the rules? And where does such a tournament take place? You can't go to an Arena or the Tombs becaues you'll be matched up against other teams who aren't following you "sealed deck" rules. The only place where you can be sure of facing a given opponent is through arranged GvG combat but that's extremely cost prohibitive to set up for temporary guilds for a tournament. I do like the idea of player-driven tournaments and leagues springing up but I don't think GW 's PvP options are robust enough yet to support them. If we ever got an Arena where you could form a team and challenge other teams, well, that would lead to a lot of opportunities but then you're back to the problem of how do you make sure everyone's obeying the rules...

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

12 May 2005 at 22:37 - 13

:nods:

I'm hoping that someone from ArenaNet will take notice of this and make an Arena specialized for "sealed deck" format.

Otherwise, I don't see how one could account for all the necessary randomization.

freeb0rn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

12 May 2005 at 23:08 - 14

AWESOME idea. I'd like to hear what hardcore PvP fanbois have to say about it, though.

Mallich

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

House Delletore

Me/R

13 May 2005 at 01:20 - 15

I think it's a great idea. This would provide a great change from the standard PvP tournaments, and it's a show of true skill when you can form a decent squad out of mix-matched items and skills in a short period of time, a different type of skill than the skill involved in building a tombs group or similar.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

13 May 2005 at 01:49 - 16

Has anyone given any thought to the types of matches in a hypothetical sealed deck tournament? Would they be ctf, deathmatch, annihilation, or some combination of those and the other available playtypes?

Definitely think this would be a good idea, but i can't see it as being very possible on a community front unless and until they allow for quicker skill unlocks (if you set up which skill a character has outside a game, it still needs to be mirrored in-game) and specific team challenges beyond guild hall battles.

Laz

Kebren Divinus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

13 May 2005 at 02:46 - 17

I like this idea. Lets say you got 15 random skills and a class you picked and have to make create a build using that.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 03:09 - 18

Exactly, Kebren.

Randomize the choice of the classes.

Randomize the choice of the skills.

Randomize the choice of the items.

It shouldn't matter whether or not they're unlocked. The focus is completely on SKILL. As far as I'm concerned, someone could hop in from Day 1 and technically draw Hundred Blades of Life Transfer.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

13 May 2005 at 03:12 - 19

Right, but that is not something a community tournament has the option of doing, it would require a.net coding in a seal deck system.

Laz

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 03:14 - 20

:nods:

Which is why I'm hoping to catch the attention of ArenaNet with this.

I think it's a wonderful idea, and I'm hoping it could be implemented, whether in an update or a future expansion.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

13 May 2005 at 03:16 - 21

Not disagreeing with you

.

Though if a.net coded it how would the tournament progress? Weeklong, then resets? Every day?

Laz

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 03:19 - 22

I'm.. not really sure.

I think this should be looked at first:

At the end of the round, do teams redraw their decks, or do they stick with the ones they have?

Yuji Storm

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

13 May 2005 at 03:21 - 23

Would attributes be null and void? or would you, upon arival of the random skills be allowed to spend a set ammount of attribute points to make your best skill better?

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

13 May 2005 at 03:23 - 24

That answer would depend on the length of rounds.

If it was a weeklong tournament with 1 round/day i'd say redraw after every round.

If it was daylong or less with rounds happening quickly i'd say no, but possibly redraw after each elimination.

Laz

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 04:09 - 25

Everyone would be set at the same level with the same amount of spendable attribute points.

Vangor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

13 May 2005 at 08:12 - 26

I'd say do a complete randomization of classes and skills, classes primary and secondary are of course completely random, and it then chooses 4 random attributes to upgrade, which effects your focuses, weapons, and so on so that people don't end up with an axe when they need a hammer. From the 4 random attributes chosen, 1-3 sklls are chosen from each (obviously if an attribute has 1, another has 3 to balance) with non-links thrown in there to balance as well. Then all attributes are assigned a value of 9/9/8/8, players can tweak in the first 30 seconds to up an attribute at the expense of another just as our current system goes.

Would be the only logical way to do this, magic was different because essentially even crap cards could be used since it was highly implausible you didn't have any lands for it, but, in GW with attributes, skills, and equipment, you could be given hammer mastery 12 with dismember, axe rake, and axe twist and be wielding a dragon sword, but I'm sure everyone realizes that, the above is just a way to define some rules.

As well, it would be a complete randomization of team size (4-8), objective, and map, for that little added twist.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 08:49 - 27

Perhaps.

I'd still prefer the code randomly choose a number of skills/spells from randomly drawn classes and allow the player to decide his attributes.

Drylnn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Orlando, FL

13 May 2005 at 11:55 - 28

This idea is an excellent one, and I'd be all over that if they had it. It would alleviate some of my fears about competitiveness in PVP in say, two months, mostly because it would offer a type of pvp where I wouldn't have to worry at all about grinding skills and runes (I know people debate the merits of this... I'm not trying to pick a fight... I just think there is a slight grind advantage, but not a huge one).

k1rage

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

13 May 2005 at 12:07 - 29

Best Idea Ever!

Madjik

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Somewhere, U.S.A.

Gold Pheonix

13 May 2005 at 12:36 - 30

This is a wonderful idea! A match of this type would be a LOAD of fun just to WATCH much less play in. I'd like to see this.

MasterDinadan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

The Zaishen Force

Me/E

13 May 2005 at 14:41 - 31

How about this... a pool of abilities is spawned for each team. It creates a certain number of abilities for each profession and then members of the team take turns picking abilities out of the pool (picking only from one of their professions). This way, people have a choice of abilities but taking the best abilities also means depriving the others in the group from the ability when they might need it more. This encourages you to think about how you want the abilities assigned among group members. Then everyone is given some armor of a specific quality (the type of armor can be random) and then a bunch of weapons are spawned and everyone on the team picks a weapon out of the pool.
I think this would be cool, plus it would encourage a team to have varying professions. If everyone was a ranger then all the ranger abilities would be picked up quickly and they would be forced to fill their bar with secondary profession abilities which they may not want to.

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

13 May 2005 at 14:46 - 32

Ok, I made a suggestion like this elsewhere: I always liked the matched boosters setup for Magic, or the equivalent of duplicates bridge. Each player is given a set of cards, but they are the same cards. This is normally achieved in Magic by having a host with a very large collection of cards; land is available in piles for the taking, 3-4 booster packs are opened by the host and then matching cards are drawn from his collection to make a pile identical to the random cards from the boosters. This is done for each pair playing (A vs. B, C vs. D, E vs. F for example), so that within each pair they have the SAME starting material (A=B, C=D etc....) Then, after the game, each player slides down one seat on the bench, and plays with a new set of cards, but against a new opponent who is again using the same set of cards. (Thus, A now faces F using the cards that C and D used last; C faces B using the cards that E and F used last and E faces D asing the cards that A and B used last.) They rotate through opponents using the decks, and then totals are tallied.

The same idea could be used here, just with teams. For 4 on 4, 4 class combos are presented to each team, they select from them in 30 seconds or so after discussing it briefly - they then are presented with 60 or so skills chosen randomly from the attribute lines from whicht they bmake their build - but the opposing team is given the same list. They of course will end up with different builds, but they has the same skill sets. Team discussion is allowed while selecting skills and armour, when it ends you face your evenly matched opponents

Bamelin

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

13 May 2005 at 14:59 - 33

if your a mtg fan you might like this little gem:

www.starchamber.net

\

taion

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Pasadena, California

Mo/

13 May 2005 at 20:48 - 34

Randomised skills would probably be optimal: hand each player something like 24–30 skills chosen entirely at random (enough to assure that at least the player will be able to fill its skillbar for at least some class combo), and let the player choose its class, attributes, and PvP-style equipment (I guess item upgrades would either have to be disabled, standardised, or appropriately randomised). The point of Sealed and Draft in M:tG is that it's a limited format – half the challenge is to make the best build possible from limited resources, and it's expected that the builds you end up with are mediocre at best compared to anything constructed, but it's a lot of fun to try to conjure up at least some semblence of synergy from a randomised card pool. Giving someone skills completely at random and only allowing selection of class combo and attribute points isn't much of a test of the ability to construct a good build, whereas using a randomised skill pool does allow for this.

And it has been suggested before on the thread, though not directly, but how about something analogous to Draft rather than Sealed? There's another layer of skill in signalling your card/skill picks in Draft-based formats so you're at least marginally cooperating with the people next to you so none of you get totally screwed over by one another, and the results are typically less random – it's still possible for players to get lucky, and the resulting decks are never quite as good as constructed decks, but they do tend to be less consistent and more solid.

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

13 May 2005 at 21:23 - 35

Err.

My implementation would've used randomized class, skills, and items.

I did make -one- suggestion that the randomization might, say, select -three- at random, and allow the player to take those three and set his primary/secondary that way, and then have randomized skills from there.

Who knows, though. :O

As long as it's random. XO

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

14 May 2005 at 12:49 - 36

Well, random is good, but random MATCHED is better. I don't want to lose becasue he "randomly" got a great combo, while I got screwed. Matched random skill sets leaves it up to who can build and play better. Draft leaves it up to who can pick best and play best together. Simply having random and independent for each player could result in very lopsided competitions.

ocoini

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

14 May 2005 at 13:06 - 37

Random is fun

[email protected]

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2005

14 May 2005 at 14:43 - 38

There are too many "bad draws" possible if the total number of primary/secondary class types for each team aren't the same. (This is the idea posted as a reply to the original thread.)

Random skills wouldn't work, nor would random attribute points. The players must choose where to add attribute points to customize a good fit to the team. Then they must be allowed to choose skills from the same skills available to the other team.

Notice this gives a balanced fair fight. I wouldn't want to be "dealt" a skill weaker than the other teams, nor stronger. I'd rather lose to a person because they wisely chose the proper counter to our teams strategy, not because of random weaker deals. Plus imagine the number of people who would simply quit because their skills weren't what they wanted.

One possible outcome:

Team 1:
R/Mo
R/E
Mo/W
Mo/E
Me/W
Me/Ne
W/Ne
E/R

Team 2:
R/W
R/W
Mo/E
Mo/Ne
Me/Mo
Me/R
W/E
E/Ne
-----
Totals Each Team Primaries: 2 R, 2 Me, 2 Mo, 1 W, 1 E
Totals Each Team Secondary: 1 Mo, 2 W, 2 Ne, 2 E, 1 R

Makkert

Black Beast of Aarrrrgghh

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

The Biggyverse [PLEB] // Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

14 May 2005 at 14:57 - 39

I second this suggestion

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

14 May 2005 at 15:13 - 40

Attributes would NOT be randomized.

Skills would not be RANDOMLY assigned. Rather, players will be randomly given a SKILL POOL from which to draw their skills from.

The idea is to have a sealed deck tournament. What you're suggesting is totally opposite of sealed deck.

- edit -

If this isn't to your liking, maybe Sealed Deck isn't for you--because that's what Sealed Deck is all about. Not trying to be an ass. But it's part of the fun. The challenge of constructing a deck/character from randomly drawn skills and seeing how it works against your opponent.