Lieutenants helm in Henge of Denravi Overpowered

I'm glad someone said this. Here is my reply in the same fasion as your argument:

It was your decision not to make a PvE warrior, and therefore your fault for not having a HoD Helm.
You knew that the HoD helm was a PvE only item.
Either PvP with your PvP characters, delete and make a PvE toon, or wait until Factions for more slot(s).

I don't see how your argument holds any more merit than mine.

Either they are both valid, or they are both moot.

Don't expect Anet to hold your hand through the whole game. PvP characters ARE "good enough" for pvp, and as the whole have any mod/weapon/rune/armor/shield you want, even have an advantage.

Exactly.

And if you are going to PvP enough to have all of your runes and upgrades factioned for when you tweak up your PvE character, you may aswell just have a PvP slot.

Personally I have played through the PvE side of the game with 7 characters over two accounts. After I completed the game with them and finished unlocking, most of them got deleted to give me free slots. I don't really understand the sentimental mentality somepeople have towards old PvE characters that they may barely even use.

And as pointed out, PvE characters CAN have an advantage in PvP. It costs a lot to kit them out, but that's basicly paying for the advantage that you get. Armor switching, multiple customised weapon sets, rune swapping... And thats only really all important at high level PvP. If you are just playing the odd fun GvG or few rounds in comp arena... what does the 10 hp difference between a major or sup vigor count for? What does it matter if your sword is +28hp and not +30... etc.

In short: Don't whine about the cost, unless it actually really matters to you. And chances are if you are unwilling to keep a slot free for a PvP character, you don't care enough about PvP for perfect equipment to really matter.

Yay for yet another PvE player ENTIRELY missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with PvE vs PvP, and the advantages or disadvantages of one vs the other. The point simply is that the HoD helm is BROKEN, IMBALANCED, OVERPOWERED. Regardless of whether it was available of PvP characters or not.

Sigh.

I think what you're saying here is that nobody finds any value from a character after they beat the game save for sentimental value. Not true, a lot of people keep the toons around for active PvE.

I'm not trying to be "wise", or annoying or anything here, but I honestly think that both sides of the coin need to be exposed. I'm offering suggestions on how to make it UNIVERSALLY fair and balanced, you and Sef II are offering suggestions to make it balanced for PvP players ONLY.

Sigh...
"Don't whine about the advantage of the HoD helm unless it really matters to you. And chances are if you are not willing to make a PvE toon, outfit him/her, get the helm, cap the elites, etc. then you don't care enough about high level PvP for it to matter."

And in regards to your comment about a PvE player missing the point... no I didn't miss it, I know what the argument is.
I think if all PvP toons had the option of equipping the helm at creation then they would not be complaining.

All I ask is that those who argue clearly and only in favor of the PvP players side take a step back and examine the situation and try to understand that not everyone WANTS to have a slot for PvP only yet they may still WANT to do PvP from time to time.

And, I believe (please tell me if you don't) that they deserve a fair fight just the same as PvP toons do.

How could it be unbalanced for PvE players? You are fighting AI monsters, you are not fighting AI monsters with Henge helms.

This is where you are wrong, if I played warrior in PvP I would have a PvE warrior with max gear and a henge helm. Absolutely no doubt about it. I don't play a warrior, so I don't. I have a PvP ready PvE monk, however. 4 green staffs, focus sets, negative energy sets, changeable headgears, max armor... Many of the people arguing for this change ARE PvP players with the helm. Take Ensign for example, arguing that it is overpowered despite the fact that his guild runs a GvG build with 3 warriors that ALL use them.

You obviously do miss the point, because this has nothing to do with how available the helm is. Or who it is available to. The problem is that it is available at all.

Yet again, pretty conclusive evidence that you DO miss the point. PvP side? What are you talking about? There is no PvP side in this argument. There are those who think the Henge helm is overpowered, and those who don't. What you are saying here has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

....? Again, I do not understand what you are trying to get at. The fact that PvE characters can get the helm but PvP players can't somehow makes them balanced? Er... No?

The point is it is not overpowered.
1. it has less armor (not signififcantly less but still)
2. You have to have a PvE warrior to have it
3. Only warriors can have it
4. You still have to go through PvE to get it.
5. The helm is not broken it just has a different mod on it.
6. In PvE you need to buy a 100k weapon justto get even with the PvP weapons, Oh and Runes.
7. People who start a PvE character according to you should not be allowed to play PvP.
8. It probably won't kill your build to bring Warstel's Worry because you are already running a hex build right?
9. You make a point though, it may be hard for necromancers to adjust to this.

Didn't some of the Developers say that this game was oriented at both PvP and PvvE and that they are trying to make them less seperate?

Do you know which warrior I pvp on? It's my pve one, my first character. Do you know why?

The Lieutenant's Helm. (and to a lesser effect, tanzit's defender and other helm switches)

I don't care too greatly about not having perfect mods (since my warrior is mainly farming, all my weapons are "in stance", but Sprint/Frenzy cover it) but the Lieutenant's Helm has been extremely useful both in pvp and doing whatever in pve.

I've a pvp-ready PvE monk (with armors, negative energy, runes, etc.) as well. I'd go into pvp with her rather than make a pvp toon, because I spent the effort and have more or less perfect equipment, it doesn't make much sense for me to roll a sub-par PvP monk.

Basically, I'm arguing for pvp balance, even though I'm primarily pve, I care about both sides of the game because it's in Anet's best interest to keep a strong, variable metagame. We don't want a repeat of spirit spam (grr Ritualists) nor teams running nothing but warriors (IWAY). When the game becomes who-can-execute-one-build-with-fewer-mistakes, it gets boring. This is why many PvP players tend to find killing mindless gryphons and trolls rather dull.

If anything it's unbalanced for the monsters. Of course, since they don't really talk, save for the PvP training "gg", you can't hear them bitch and whine about Deep Freeze only sticking for 5 s, or spiteful for a meager 10 s. I've heard some pve players complain about Diversion etc. not sticking on PvE bosses for their full duration... now are you sort of seeing the problem?

No (smile) and I'll tell you why. One thing you can never achieve balance in a mutiplayer atmosphere unless everyone has the same equipment like the snowball fights during wintersday. That was the only balanced aspect of GW's. PVE is not balanced because you have invici-classes that can solo high end content. PVP is not balanced because of reasons mentioned not in this thread but many others. It comes down to a fine line of not what is balanced, but, what is 'reasonably fair'. That's as close to balance they will ever get.

Hod Helm or no Hod helm there are many many many other things that a PVE to PVP character can and does do that a pre-made or custom made will never be able to do. And if they nerf that, you'll see a mass exodus of people that played their PVE characters up to PVP because it will be to them like nerfing everything they put in their time and worked for.

But, if all you want is a bunch of premades or custom mades without any specialties, just plain jane carbon copies of everyone else, that is the only way you will achieve balance in the PVP game.

This is just another game that proves a point, you should never try to couple a PVE environment with a PVP environment. Segregation is the only way both will be fair to both types of players.

They want you to play PvE.

It HALVES hex duration. How is that in any way not overpowered? Just by being there it near enough makes your mesmer or necromancers half as usefull. It is a major factor towards warrior heavy builds being viable, and hex builds being less so. For an item to be actually effecting builds in high level PvP, is very very wrong in my opinion. Maybe you don't agree, because you just aren't seeing how much it is used.

Go to observer mode, and watch every top 50 guild. Count how many of them are using PvE warriors. I can almost garauntee that every one of those warriors has a henge helm either equipped or in their inventory.

Armor swapping still makes creating a PvP ready PvE character worth it. Changing the HoD helm to 20% reduced hex duration is not going to be as big a deal as is being made out here. I don't really understand what the fuss is. To me it's an item that is clearly unbalancing the game, and a small tweak like that would solve the problem. How people can argue against that is beyond me.

ok , did you have played warrior in pvp?

becouse if you did you will know 50% less duration is overpowered.

and im not whinning abount i dont have one , i actualy buyed 5 set ....

Would you rather everyone in the game had the same equipment?
I personally like the variety. And im not saying this because i have a warrior, because I don't. I even have a mesmer. I just make sure to bring Warstel's Worry along and everything will be fine. If you cant have warstels bring distortion and attack the casters.

No one seems to want to raise the point that necro and mesmer degens are overpowering though. You ever had a mass of them on you at once? Notice how quickly you die? Is this balanced? Is this fair? I as a Warrior can't kill them in 5 seconds, neither should they me. (smile)

Once again, Yes i have played a PvP warrior.. and i have played a PvP mesmer, and to some extent a necro (but not much).

And could you clarify the last line it confused me.

There is an absolutely vast chasm between variety and imbalance. I love variety, it's a wonderfull thing. Which is why I am suggested make the Henge helm 20%, not to take it out of the game.

Do you not think that having to put a skill (and therefore a class) in your build, just to counter a piece of equipment is slightly... stupid?

JR-, Seef II, and all others who believe in the last few posts of thiers:

If you want balance, than you will have to define what balance is.

If you want fairness, then you will have to define what fairness is.

To me, these 2 terms without any doubt imply that every player, regardless of gender, skin color, age, height, social standing, or PLAY STYLE PREFERENCE have the SAME opportunities when facing off in PvP.

You seem to be open to nerfing the HoD Helm for reasons previously stated. Fine.

However you seem to be against the very premise of my idea in post #156: Equality, Fairness, and Balance on a Level Playing Ground for ALL players.

And because of this, I know there is nothing I can do to convince you that I am right. But at least others who read this thread will know the truth.

I think I'm done arguing about fairness, balance, and seperation of P & E.

Whatever the outcome, in the end nobody will be hurt if true balance is achieved. I'm sorry to see that you are both adamantly against that.




No hard feelings of course

I agree until they can bring the assasin in I say leave the helm seeing as there is only one main melee class. Of course I've seen good R/W but you get the point.

Like bringing interupts to counter trapper balls? Or better yet frozen soil to counter IWAY.

Because it was a bad idea?

That is to counter a BUILD, not a piece of EQUIPMENT. If you run a build, you are limited to that. The point to the henge helm is that it has a FAR superior advantage compared to any disadvantage it might have. You can just swap your helmet if you need to, you can't just change a build mid battle.

Will the day ever come when the "it's overpowered" complaints end? Yes. When we finally have no armor, weapons or skills.

Nerf this and the "usual suspects" will line up complaining about the next overpowered skill/weapon/artifact/whatever.

Please ....... make it stop!!!

Should we also bring back the dual smite, spirit spam, energy denial and dustway (lol) FoTMs? Or did you really enjoy how insanely boring and frustrating they were?

Games have balance issues that need addressing, just because it may not effect YOU directly, does not mean it doesn't effect anyone else.

No more boring than everyone being equal. Balance=equality=no challenge except who hits the buttons the fastest.

This post proves how worthless your opinion on the matter is. You don't like balance because it takes skill out of the game? Next time there there is a major sporting event on how about one team goes out blindfolded, wouldn't that be great?

If you think being succesfull in a balanced PvP environment comes down to "who hits the buttons fastest", your experience of PvP must be limited to the point of non-existant.

But then we will have to nerf the monsters so we can punch Willa the Unpleasent to death.

P.S. good point

Wow... Are you talking PvP here? Are you sure? Yes, balance is equality, but equality doesn't mean no challenge at all. Balance means chance for everyone to be just as good. You're talking Diablo II here, you want unbalanced stuff so you can have a "challenge". If not, please explain your reasoning behind Balance being equal to no challenge because I don't get it.

Edit- Added Quote.

Um... I don't think judging by what you said, that you are allowed to call his opinion worthless. But, as you have said it so shall I, Your opinion is worthless.

Someone made an analogy to football, so let's use that as an example. Two teams of clones, perfectly balanced. Who wins? Last team to have the ball. Now that is exciting.

And .... my opinion my be worthless to you, JR, but I value your and everyone elses' opinion.

If it is in within bounds of balance, yes. That is what PvP in this game is supposed to be a level playing field for all participants where skills is the determining factor, not because you have uber sword y or l33t armor x.
This helm goes against this.

So you much rather pigeonhole mesmers into a single skill set

Apologies if I sounded overly harsh.

The amount of strategy and tactics involved in a high level guild battle can be pretty mind blowing for new player. When it comes right down to it, that is a far bigger factor in your success than build. So even were you to pit two identically kitted out teams against each other, in most cases there would still be a decisive victory from one or the other. Saying it comes down to who hits the buttons fastest is, to be blunt, stupid.

In your analogy you have said both teams were cloned, implying equal skill. I am merely talking about equal equipment. Were your favoured football team to be playing another good team, would you not want to see that the equipment they were using gave no team a disadvantage so it was a fair game?

So you might say... if this is the case, why is the Henge helm important? Well because even despite this, it is STILL a very strong factor in pvp. And that is why it needs changing.

Lets try and be impartail here.

PROS
1. Balances out the PvP arenas for the PvE people
2. Easy to find easy to get.
3. Can be countered with Warstels worry fairly easily.
4. Makes it so mesmers can't solo warriors considering theyre the only melee class it is pretty bad if the squishiest back fielder can kill him.
5. It does not have perfect armor
CONS
1. Helm kills the curse Necromancers against warriors
2. Can not be gotten by PvP People
3.It is equipment not a skill.
4. Only warriors can use it.

I tried to be impartial so if you feel the need to flame this post rember it is for and against your views.

That is what is meant by balance. Not this garbage that people keep spouting out. Balanced != perfect equality. Get it through your heads.

1.How does this balance out PvP arenas for PvE people? By giving them an unfair advantage?
2.And? In order to make a PvP worthy warrior you still have a long way to go besides obtaining this helm. As Savio pointed out before, the amount and time needed to make a PvP worthy warrior from PvE is substantial.
3. So you want to confine all mesmers to a single skillset? Plus the warrior can always switch back to the other helms he has in his inventory
4. "Soloing" isn't relevant in a team game, sorry.
5. Not relevant

Your analogy has a major flaw in it. It would be accurate if say, you cloned iQ and made them face themselves using the exact same build. When we start asking to nerf Ensign, then you can bust out this analogy.

Balance is putting the two teams on a level playing field from the beginning. In football, the team that trains harder will have an advantage. In football (american or otherwise), there isn't any advantage one team can have outside of the players themselves. If your favorite team's goals/tds counted for less than the other teams, you would be rather pissed off.

The denravi helm needs to be nerfed to maintain the level playing field. Think of skills as plays. If your team was using zone defense to counter their complex routes, and the other team could drink something before the game that made this half as effective, without even having to run a counter-play, you would be rather annoyed.

It is the same way with the Denravi helm. A person doesn't need to waste any slots to cut your effectiveness in half.

Having this helm in the game does in no way balance the game in any way. That is an utterly ridiculous argument. The issue with this helm has NOTHING to do with PvP vs PvE, I really really with people would start to understand this. Thats like saying I wish they hadn't nerfed Ether Renwal smite because it worked in PvE.

And "PvP players" create PvE characters aswell, JUST to get this helm. It is in NO WAY a "PvE player" only item.

That in no way detracts or adds to the issue of balance, mute point.

Requires you to bring a mesmer with Wastrels Worry if you ever want to run a viable hex build. Which is just silly.

Guild Wars PvP has NOTHING to do with soloing ANYONE. With the slim exception of flag runners, it is another completely mute point. Guild Wars is designed for TEAM play. Doing rock/paper/scissors with classes is just stupid.

With the amount that the head area of the body is hit, that is a trivial point. Not to mention you would only actually equip the helm against teams that were fairly hex heavy.

And any mesmer that doesn't bring Wastrels Worry? Illusion mesmers for example? Or Water Magic based hexes? The fact that the helmet makes you immune to the effects of Lightning Surge and Incendary Bonds? There are far far more hexes than just those in the Necro Curse line, and Mesmer Domination line. This helmet at a quick count has an effect on 15 Elementalist hexes, 24 Necromancer hexes, 25 Mesmer hexes, 2 monk hexes... Maybe more I have missed, although admittedly a fair few won't be that effective on warriors. So to counter this your build HAS to have a mesmer specced in domination with wastrels worry. Because of a helmet. =/

Apart from, as I said before, the hundreds of PvP people who made PvE characters to get the helmet. This issue has NOTHING to do with where or who the helmet is available to.

Which is an advantage, because you can change it in and out whenever you want.

That might be the case, but most of your points are still... pointless.

One last go at this.

What is the last profession that is usually targeted in PvP and why. I know some will disagree but it's usually the warrior that gets targeted last and the reason is he is the least threat. There are so many ways to counter and nullify a warrior. So let the poor guy give up an attribute point in order to survive a little longer against hexes.

If there were teams of warriors with these helms owning tombs, then I would say it should be looked at. Maybe I'm out of the loop but I just haven't heard of this happening.

And please ..... all ..... stop flaming others just because they don't agree with you.

Enough said right here

Balance doesn't grant people equal skills. It gives teams an equal platform to rise up on.

Guild Wars Guru has hit a new low.

Well, apparently you are out of the loop. There are teams with warriors with these helms owning GvG, which is a wee bit more important than tombs.

A warrior is never the least threat. He has the highest DPS of any class currently available. The reason they're targeted last is because of heavy armor, not usefullness.

A- Uhmm Yeah.. I would take the ability to halve the duration of a COMPLETE skill line in exchange of 20 mere armor which can easily be fixed.

Edit- About warriors being the last targets. That's quite an old way of thinking, warriors are now just as easy targets as mesmers are. There's no such thing as last targeted player anymore.
B- Just like the previous statement. 1 Second/Some damage in exchange of Effective reduction of a lot of skills. A lot.

C- Is that serious? Oh yeah parasitic bond and Wastrels are much more effective. You're forgetting all the other hexes, those aren't effective.