Gale thoughts
Rajamic
I think the best idea so far is to just let Exhaustion continue into negative. That way weapon/offhand switching won't let them instantly erase exhaustion. It would at least limit the frequesncy at which warriors (or anyone else for that matter) could use it.
LaserLight
Gale does indeed need a knocking, but it seems that there are other ways one could deal with it. Running Mo/W with Balanced Stance would work, and who cares about Tactics being a sub-par line. If it has one skill you need, it's the line for you. Just run Divine Favor, your choice of Healing/Protection, and Tactics. Hell, would probably make a great secondary Monk, using Charge! for mobility enhancement, Balanced Stance to evade Gale lockups and the like, and enough healing to get by. Sure, kinda focused on evading only a single char type, but as has been stated, the current generation of Gale Axemen are truly too powerful for the game's good. They've got one of the most effective point interruption skills in the game, vicious damaging capabilities, and the ability to hunt down whatever they want virtually without fail. Too much for me, thanks.
tafy69
monks with balanced stance is really crappy, maybe if they buffed it so the recharge was same as the effect it would be worth it.
kvndoom
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Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos
Or... how about this fix for Gale?
Just have the knockdown time relative to the amount of Air Magic invested.
That could allow Air Ele's more of a benefit from the skill, but warriors less so. Not that Gale War's are badly overpowered. But, in the event a change is made, I like the idea of tieing the skill more closely to its attribute line. That's the BEST idea I've seen for it yet. You'd have to have the full 12 in Air to get 3 seconds, 6-11 only gives you 2. Maybe even have that little "pause" after casting like the Rangers get with interrupts. Then it's still useful, but not so desirable that no one wants to run anything else.
Just have the knockdown time relative to the amount of Air Magic invested.
That could allow Air Ele's more of a benefit from the skill, but warriors less so. Not that Gale War's are badly overpowered. But, in the event a change is made, I like the idea of tieing the skill more closely to its attribute line. That's the BEST idea I've seen for it yet. You'd have to have the full 12 in Air to get 3 seconds, 6-11 only gives you 2. Maybe even have that little "pause" after casting like the Rangers get with interrupts. Then it's still useful, but not so desirable that no one wants to run anything else.
Glasswalker
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Originally Posted by kvndoom
That's the BEST idea I've seen for it yet.
I disagree entirely. If you make this of variable length, Warriors will simply carry Stoneskin Gauntlets and increase it thus. Other classes will be at a disadvantage. The thing to do is to allow exhaustion to go negative. The skill at that point is effectively 15E. Few warriors can sustain more than 2 before becoming handicapped (having 7 useful skills and 0 Energy). Putting Sympathetic Visage on one such Warrior would completely shut them down for the legitimate duration of Exhaustion.
With Elementalists, there is the option of buying extra storage, and with other casters, there is greater energy recoup and better foci/primaries as far as additional energy goes. This is less of an issue with them. I would dare say that with the exception of Warriors and Rangers, Exhaustion was factorred into the cost.
If I am reading things properly though, it seams that changing to a lesser focus, then back will cure you of 5+ Energy of exhaustion. That is broken no matter what the skill.
With Elementalists, there is the option of buying extra storage, and with other casters, there is greater energy recoup and better foci/primaries as far as additional energy goes. This is less of an issue with them. I would dare say that with the exception of Warriors and Rangers, Exhaustion was factorred into the cost.
If I am reading things properly though, it seams that changing to a lesser focus, then back will cure you of 5+ Energy of exhaustion. That is broken no matter what the skill.
LightningHell
Stoneskin Gauntlet doesn't increase Gale knockdown time.
And really did you need to triple post? :P
And really did you need to triple post? :P
Poison Ivy
Nurf everything FFS! NURF NURF NURF!
Nurf the 55 hp, nurf gale, nurf Swirling Aura, nurf this nurf that.
The only thing that should be nurfed is the creater of this thread :P
Nurf the 55 hp, nurf gale, nurf Swirling Aura, nurf this nurf that.
The only thing that should be nurfed is the creater of this thread :P
Renegade ++RIP++
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Stoneskin Gauntlet doesn't increase Gale knockdown time.
And really did you need to triple post? :P It will if you decrease the knockdowntimer. Gauntlets increase the time with 1 second but only as long as it doesn't go beyond the 3 second line.
Its the reason why backbreaker doesn't get affected by stoneskin gauntlet either.
And really did you need to triple post? :P It will if you decrease the knockdowntimer. Gauntlets increase the time with 1 second but only as long as it doesn't go beyond the 3 second line.
Its the reason why backbreaker doesn't get affected by stoneskin gauntlet either.
darkMishkin
What about making exhaustion removal relative to pips of energy regeneration? Warriors should obviously not be getting the same effect from exhaustion as casters. 1/2 as much energy regen should mean recovering from exhaustion at half the speed.
This could be continued further if not the natural energy regen (2 for W, 3 for R, 4 for casters), but modded regen could be taken into account. This would lead to nice (largely necro) combos of Blood Ritual / Blood is Power / Peace and Harmony / Melandru's Resilience being used to quickly clear exhaustion in exhaustion heavy builds. Also this enables the use of Wither / Malaise to counter such a build, as removing pips of regen would increase the time the caster was exhausted.
This could be a really interesting change to the mechanics of exhaustion.
This could be continued further if not the natural energy regen (2 for W, 3 for R, 4 for casters), but modded regen could be taken into account. This would lead to nice (largely necro) combos of Blood Ritual / Blood is Power / Peace and Harmony / Melandru's Resilience being used to quickly clear exhaustion in exhaustion heavy builds. Also this enables the use of Wither / Malaise to counter such a build, as removing pips of regen would increase the time the caster was exhausted.
This could be a really interesting change to the mechanics of exhaustion.
Makkert
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Originally Posted by Hell Marauder
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You are correct...your statement is how flame wars begin. |
Axe warriors are still free to use whatever high-energy skills out there to hurt or annoy casters. Then people will yell "nerf those" again, not realizing where the problem really is. You don't see many sword/hammer warriors using Gale because exhaustion will reduce their damage output a lot by preventing them from using their favorite spammable skills (irresistable blow, seeking blade etc.). But axe warriors are in the unique position because their high damage skills don't use energy, so exhaustion means nothing to them. So solution should be making some axe skills costing energy instead of adrenaline, then they will have to think twice before using skills that cause exhaustion and limit their damage output. 
An interesting uptake, but I think the trouble lies mostly with a lack of counters and the fact that Exhaustion is basicly bypassed. And I'm afraid Chapter 2 isn't helping much in the counter options department. If exhaustion would go into negative, that would be a nice first step. Your suggested change is a big one, and i'm not convinced it would solve the issue tbh. In any case we'll see what the skillbalancing will bring soon.
Darkpower Alchemist
Nerfing? Skill balancing? Skill changes? All these fall into the same vein as with the IWAY situation.You can't find a way to stop it,so down its power levels,or make it do less than what it does now."Nerfing" the spell does no justice to the Air spell lineup,since it is rather sparse and underpowered at low lvls anyway. Also, Gale, like its air spell brethren,are basically solo opponent based,making teamwork more needed than ever before. How about covering the downed monk/spellcaster with an interupt on a warrior,giving him a chance to recover?It's the typical way of thinking that is the cause of the problem.One track teamplay always leaves the spellcasters in 1 on 1 situations with warriors.We all know that warriors outmuscle,and take more damage than any spellcaster can take,but we always seem to leave them to fend for themselves."Oh,he can heal himself while I take out the monk!" "I deal alot of damage,so all he has to do is hold out until I'm done with their monk!" This way of thinking is so backwards,that it is sickening.Why doesn't a team work with a buddy like system? Have a Spiker stay near or at least watch the monk's back.Keep close and protect your healers,and Gale won't matter as much.Nerf the spell,and another way emerges.Their should never be a time where the monk is so far away from his teammates that he can not at least be defended properly.Dual W/E Gale Axemen in a team, working together, cover each other,so why not a spiker ele and the monk?I believe that a monk should always carry a smite,for self defense purposes. Should it deal damage? I believe so.The monk's partner/Protector should then use the exact spell we are disgusing,Gale,to stop the warrior,or another that will be effective in whatever build the ele is running.Maybe the ele is a smiter in disguise,then he could cast SoJ on the downed monk,causing the warrior to get one hit before being knocked on his duff,and the monk gets up and does his running thing,that ele can then use a spell like lightning javelin to interupt the next gale attempt.My point is nerfing isn't the only option for the one solid defensive/knockdown/interupt spell in the ENTIRE Air spell lineup.Get inventive,and play the team sport like it's meant to be played.
Darkpower Alchemist
discussing* bad spelling day
Knight of Eternal Darknes
doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is people didn't know who used it before observe mode, so you shouldn't be complaining about it when people steal other peoples ideas..... worste blackout(yeah right) blackout lasts for up to 6 seconds it's not even close, only class gale is worth putting on as a warrior is an axe warrior... other than that it's pretty foolish, if you can't find a counter to it then that's your fault, it's not overpowering at all, because of warrior easily being disabled through slowing moving hexes/cripple and hexes to make you miss/blind warriors have many disadvantages because they have to be near you in order to hit you, if your other monk can't help you out while your knockdown then it's your teams fault for not having a strategy if that happen. STOP B*TCHING no one is even on your side because people like using it.
Renegade ++RIP++
Point is however that gale has made hammerknockdowns near useless. And hammers are already at a small loss in comparison to axes or swords. Gale is still a more consistant knockdown then the ones dependent on adrenaline.
Epinephrine
Exhaustion can't go negative. If exhaustion could go negative we'd be fine; Gale locking could happen, but it would be limited in usefulness, as warriors would quickly reduce their energy to below zero. Using Gale at 5 max energy would set your maximum energy to -5, and it's be the full 30 seconds till you could employ it again. Fix the exhaustion mechanic and Gale is quite reasonable, but with the ability to swap weapon sets to get rid of exhaustion warriors can easily Gale without having any problem with exhaustion.
glountz
Instead of whining against nerfing, just watch in observer mode best team's GvGs.
And do some skill comparison, please. This game is meant to be balanced so player's skill is all that matters. Playing a hammer warrior sometimes, I give you a comparison. Backbreaker Elite 10 A.D=you must wait a long time to be able to use it. Melee range. 4 sec KD. Counters possible: evade stances, blocking enchants, blindness, cripple, hexes, adrenalin loss. Gale Non-Elite 5 Energy + exhaustion ( easily counterable by focus swap) Ranged 3 sec KD Counters possible: Spell breaker, fast interrupts. Please explain why a warrior should play hammer and choose hammer elites.
Glasswalker
First off, my apologies for the earlier Tripple Post. A personal record at the very least.
BELEETED!I would never argue in favor of nerfing skills or even skill combinations that I can't beat. That actually makes me strive harder to beat it. Balanced Stance, and interruptions work pretty well to defeat Gale Warriors. I will, however talk about nerfing when an exploit comes up. I don't blame people for using an exploit; but when it is found, steps should be taken to correct it. I don't believe that focus switching was ever intended to cure exhaustion. I think that is broken behavior. That is what I think should be changed, and it is regardless of the skill Gale. I believe Exhaustion should go negative. I would even go further and say I think there should be consequenses to having exhausted more energy than you actually have. Maybe health degen, maybe you suffer Weakness. Maybe you can't block, etc. Or maybe every strike against you is a Crit. If you can imagine a 'real-life' mage who had no energy -- cast a spell that was more than he could handle, what would happen? Would he collapse? He would certainly be unable to continue without intervention. As a secondary issue, I like the idea of tying Exhaustion recovery to current Energy Regeneration. Not because it is broken now, but if you think about it abstractly instead of in game-mechanics terms, it makes sense that it should work that way.
Epinephrine
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Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes
STOP B*TCHING no one is even on your side because people like using it.
Hey, there's a * in one of your words! Maybe there's a letter behind it? If...I....push (grunt) I can just...make it out...(Gasp!)
How rude, sirrah! Well, we've heard from the W/E m*r*n crowd about balance. Not surprisingly, they like their toys, but it's like a kid with a gun, of course he likes it, he pulls the trigger and big noises happen. Folks like that wouldn't know balance if it came up and knocked them on their butt for a solid minute. Believe it or not KoED, it is currently broken. As has been mentioned, the exhaustion mechanism is busted, it has made hammer warriors obsolete essentially and is not operating as intended. Change recharge time to 7 seconds, instead of 5; make exhaustion go negative, and you've solved it pretty well. I think it needs a lot more fine tuning than a simple number tweak, honestly, but it would do for now.
Akbur the great
what NPC teaches gale it sounds fun lol i really hate when the monks run as if they were roaches and somone turned on the light. im a noob at this game, just started 2 days ago so dont waste ur breath/fingers telling me a noob i agree completely.
Akbur the great
yo???? anyone left in this thread huh? huh?
uhuhhuh???
The Real Roy Keane
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Originally Posted by glountz
Instead of whining against nerfing, just watch in observer mode best team's GvGs.
And do some skill comparison, please. This game is meant to be balanced so player's skill is all that matters. Playing a hammer warrior sometimes, I give you a comparison. Backbreaker Elite 10 A.D=you must wait a long time to be able to use it. Melee range. 4 sec KD. Counters possible: evade stances, blocking enchants, blindness, cripple, hexes, adrenalin loss. Gale Non-Elite 5 Energy + exhaustion ( easily counterable by focus swap) Ranged 3 sec KD Counters possible: Spell breaker, fast interrupts. Please explain why a warrior should play hammer and choose hammer elites. Because a Gale-Dev Hammer(don't use Backbreaker,godammit)-Crushing Blow-Heavy Blow-Gale combo id both a decent spike and a ten second shotdown. While Hammer wars are certainly beater by axers in the damage department, i believ gale merely bolsters their repetoire,rather than making them redundant. Renegade ++RIP++
the point is however that an elite skill gets outdone by an air skill which ain't elite.
Although i might be pondering about what would happen if gale would have been an elite skill. Although, maybe the best solution would be to make some small adjustments to gale and reassess backbreaker.
Cyan The Archer
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Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes
doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine as is people didn't know who used it before observe mode, so you shouldn't be complaining about it when people steal other peoples ideas..
Even if no one knew the top guilds were using it, it still needed to be nerfed.
sun is in us
I guess Gale exists in Isolation. No other skills in the game.....so Gale is unstoppable.
I posted a M/E build that shuts down Gale Warriors and Cripple Shot rangers...in one char. Two nights ago I saw "my" build (or very similar) being used in a GVG battle. The Gale part of the Gale Warrior was gone from their skill bar for upwards of 30 seconds at a time. It was hilarious. So I really don't understand you people. You cry for nerfs on a skill instead of bringing a counter for it (one of several counters). You whine and moan for the Gods to help you...instead of just helping yourselves. It really is a bit pathetic. And I'm just not going to sugarcoat it for you all anymore. Grow up....use the skills provided to counter gale warriors....or just play another game. I don't want your Nerf-Herding to ruin a game I like....a game full of skills and counter skills.....If it hurts your brain to counter this skill...then maybe this is not the game for you. Maybe you should try another that doesn't seem to require as much effort: http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php GG.
glountz
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Originally Posted by sun is in us
I guess Gale exists in Isolation. No other skills in the game.....so Gale is unstoppable.
I posted a M/E build that shuts down Gale Warriors and Cripple Shot rangers...in one char. Two nights ago I saw "my" build (or very similar) being used in a GVG battle. The Gale part of the Gale Warrior was gone from their skill bar for upwards of 30 seconds at a time. It was hilarious. So I really don't understand you people. You cry for nerfs on a skill instead of bringing a counter for it (one of several counters). You whine and moan for the Gods to help you...instead of just helping yourselves. It really is a bit pathetic. And I'm just not going to sugarcoat it for you all anymore. Grow up....use the skills provided to counter gale warriors....or just play another game. I don't want your Nerf-Herding to ruin a game I like....a game full of skills and counter skills.....If it hurts your brain to counter this skill...then maybe this is not the game for you. Maybe you should try another that doesn't seem to require as much effort: http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php GG. I guess you're talking about arcane thievery. Disabling ONE gale spell is completely useless if you have many gale warriors. The more you have G-warriors, the more gale is effective. Worst, if you don't encounter gale warriors your build is near to useless, as it is merely used to counter specifically this Galewarrior build. It is okay now with all the galeway around here, but should you encounter something else and you will loose. The solution is not to make a specific anti-gale warrior build, it's simply not durable.
sun is in us
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Originally Posted by glountz
I guess you're talking about arcane thievery.
Disabling ONE gale spell is completely useless if you have many gale warriors. The more you have G-warriors, the more gale is effective. Worst, if you don't encounter gale warriors your build is near to useless, as it is merely used to counter specifically this Galewarrior build. It is okay now with all the galeway around here, but should you encounter something else and you will loose. The solution is not to make a specific anti-gale warrior build, it's simply not durable. Guess all you* want. Have any opinion you want. I will make an anti-any FOTM build whenever I want. And I don't lose with that build. And I don't whine for a Nerf. And I do shut them down. And I am successful with it. So make up any scenario, discount whatever Build I make that counters it....call it useless if it easier. And it is lose....not "loose." I am just not going to cater to nerf-herders anymore. The more you (the community) calls for a nerf to a skill....the more I will counter you.....just like in the game. So, I wait with baited breath for the next excuse list about how counter skills sucks and life is unfair and Gale rules the world and we won't have world peace until Gale is nerfed. 'Course I have heard it all before about ________<Insert skill here.......but you are all welcome to tell me again all the horror and terror of the skill you would like nerfed, and how its impossible to counter....how I am ruining my life by bringing in skills that counter it.......blah blah blah. At least make it a unique excuse list though.......like.....if you have an anti-gale skill counter on your skill bar, it causes you 7 years bad luck or something. Or the next plane you ride in will go down in flames etc because of it........please make the excuses more interesting if you can.... *You as in everybody....but I had to respond to a specific sentence here.....for Glountz's sake....you is not being used in a pejorative sense and I believe in Love and Flowers for everyone in this thread, and you can all come over for milk and cookies whenever you like! Renegade ++RIP++
Sun, the point still stands. An elite hammerskill gets outdone by a skill practically anyone can use.
glountz
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Originally Posted by sun is in us
Guess all you want. Have any opinion you want. I will make an anti-any FOTM build whenever I want. And I don't lose with that build. And I don't whine for a Nerf. And I do shut them down. And I am successful with it.
So make up any scenario you want, whine about whatever Build I make that counters it....call it useless if it makes you feel better. And it is lose....not "loose." I am just not going to cater to you nerf-herders anymore. The more you call for a nerf to a skill....the more I will counter you.....just like in the game. So, I wait with baited breath for your next excuse list about how counter skills sucks and life is unfair and Gale rules the world and we won't have world peace until Gale is nerfed. 'Course I have heard it all before about ________<Insert skill here.......but you are welcome to tell me again all the horror and terror of the skill you would like nerfed, and how its impossible to counter....how I am ruining my life by bringing in skills that counter it.......blah blah blah. At least make it a unique excuse list though.......like.....if you have an anti-gale skill counter on your skill bar, it causes you 7 years bad luck or something. Or the next plane you ride in will go down in flames etc because of it........please make the excuses more interesting if you can.. This is how flame wars begin. If you are unable to keep quiet and polite when posting, simply don't post. Thanks. EDIT: If you can't understand my point, please try to demonstrate where Renegade's statement above is wrong. Being able to counter something never meant that it was balanced.
sun is in us
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Originally Posted by glountz
If you are unable to keep quiet and polite when posting, simply don't post. Thanks. EDIT: If you can't understand my point, please try to demonstrate where Renegade's statement above is wrong. Being able to counter something never meant that it was balanced. |
Please follow your second statement....or bring something to the table in this discussion. I personally don't think it is good manners to tell anybody in a post to shut up (keep quiet)......but I tend to be overly polite in my treatment of others.
Being able to counter something is what this game is all about. That is why it is in general balanced. Have you even tried to counter Gale? Where is your build showing the counters you tried? Can you point out the hours you spent trying to counter it and in the end gave it up as hopeless? Where is the evidence to show that it is impossible to counter (which would make it unbalanced)?
Where is the time and effort? Where are the movies/stats/ that show people trying to solve this problem? I find it more offensive that many have not even tried. Instead of trying to solve this problem with the skills provided, I hear calls for nerfs.
And let's see....I will edit my post above as I was using the pronouns in a larger sense (I never flame Renegade anywhere).....but let's see what Renegade says about me
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And you have the nerve to try and say that I am flaming?
I did not take what he said personally, he was just discussing his position...but it appears that according to you he was flaming me. I personally respect his input and respect what he has to say....I reject the attitude of Nerf-First, rather than exploring counters...but that is non-specific to any one person.
Disagreeing with someone is not flaming them...
But back on topic:
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Change the above to one gale warrior.|
An elite hammerskill gets outdone by a skill practically anyone can use.
I think you have a point....up to a point. But let's examine how Gale is actually used in...lets say a GVG match and how, because of counters, that perhaps that Elite Hammerskill might come back into vogue: I see most of the time 2 perhaps 3 Gale Warriors in a build that uses W/E. Now, a good W/E does not spam Gale constantly, he/she uses it many times as a snare....less rarely as an interupt. Go on observe mode and follow a good one around.....all the other skills on the bar are DPS oriented.....so when they get close to killing an opponent (sees them at 1/3rd health perhaps and they are close), they Gale to drop them so they can get those last few hits in. It is also used as an interupt....but in more of a pressure/harrrass way than an actual attempt to interupt a specific skill. So it really becomes a compliment to their DPS output. So lets say I have one skill on my bar (lets say its Arcane Thievery then) and I Aecho that of course and use it on the two Gale Warriors. I know for a fact that is their only spell. Now for 30+ seconds their DPS "finisher/snare" is denied them.....and I can keep this up permanantly. Now what happens to that W/E build after 3 matches in a row of this (lets say AT becomes a Popular/commonly carried Counter to his build). Well he has some choices here.....he can add another spell (lowering his DPS even more and I still get Gale 50% of the time) or he can go back to that Elite Hammer interupt (that is not a spell). And that's how the meta-game plays out. If in every single match that W/E loses his/her precious Gale....how long do you think this build will remain popular? Now I have used AT quite a bit in all contexts, if I don't have a W/E to counter,....I simply steal a spell from the monk....or the ele......it is a simple "Random" Diversion cast at that point.....and I don't see that as a "wasted slot" (boy it is hilarious when you steal ROF off a monk). Now no one has the time to write a book about every hypothetical (the ...but...but...but...response to what I outlined above)....but I see the above scenario as very possible. When the returns on bringing that W/E with Gale into a match keep diminishing....what happens to the popularity of that build? Recall the KD/AS warrior craze right out of release? I remember as a Mesmer during that time I would always have AS on my skill bar thanks to AT and a warrior running around mad as hell.....he/she would never get a single one off the whole entire match. I don't see many of them anymore (for various reasons o course). So although Gale is available to Warriors, it can very quickly be made less effective/frustrating to carry. Maybe they still get it off on occasion, but after awhile....it just becomes a liability as they play with 7 skills constantly. And isn't that more satisfying than simply asking for a nerf to solve the problem for you? Afterall, the process above is the heart and soul of the game....why would you want it any other way? Former Ruling
I posted a LONG time ago - that no game mech needs to be changed just for 1 skill...
If they think Gale is a problem..Just make gale Cost more. I mean..Blinding Flash costs 15E for some blinding only..why should Gale only cost 5E for long knockdown.. BOOM...thats it...solves all your problems with Gale. If it cost 15-25E they cant "spam" it and offhands couldnt get past exhaustion as fast (offhand swithing can solve 5E easy....25energy..not so much..a +27 offhand could get you one more casting..but at the cost of having negative energy for awhile after) Renegade ++RIP++
If AT becomes used, they might start using 2 spells like shock and gale. In the end you'll only disable one which is random. So there is a 50/50 chance that you'll disable the gale as you stated. But in the end this 50/50 shot is enough to keep the others from starting their snare. And use backupsnare for keeping him on the ground which is the main use of the snare. The rest of their damageoriented items are still intact (shock at 9 - 10 air packs a decent punch, nearly as much as 3/4th an eviscerate).
The only reason why shock is balanced in comparison is because its not ranged and still has the same exhaustion. Like I said, and i'm still from this opinion, gale needs a small downwards adjustment and hammers need a small upwards adjustment (modwise(higher base armormod, higher base healthmod, longer effect)/damagewise and in some skills). The only defence against this knockdown spell is spellbreaker or obsidian flesh or from the warrior line balanced stance and dolyak signet.
sun is in us
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and I Aecho that of course and use it on the two Gale Warriors.
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Ever heard of this skill?
Ward Against Melee
Spell. You create a Ward Against Melee at your current location. For (Min: 8 - Max: 20) seconds, allies in this area have a 50% chance to evade melee attacks.
By the logic presented...this skill is worthless then. After all, it is only 50% of the time......but yet, I see it still used...hmmm.
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The issue isn't "whether or not they are counterable". The real issue is about how much "Threat" they have, or how much True Damage" they do, where "True Damage" = "Total Direct Damage" + "Total Opportunity Costs you make the enemy team incur". If you make the enemy waste slots on sticking counters in their skill bars against you, or simply making them make a significant reaction to your presence, you're already inflicting "True Damage" to them. You're making them incur and opportunity cost of time, attention, and skill slots on their bar! That's pretty much the problem with multiple Gale Warriors. Sure, your team wastes at least 2 character slots out of 8 to include those Gale Warriors in your team, and the enemy can use general counters against Warriors such as snares, Visage, etc., but add Gale to a Warrior's arsenal and their threat level skyrockets. Just counters like Guardian and Snares aren't enough to deal with these Warriors anymore. To deal with this increased threat level, the enemy team has to bring counters against the Gale, but thanks to the lack of effective counters against Gale, those Warriors are able to start forcing their enemies to incur massive opportunity costs if they want to keep up (Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet force you to use Warrior secondary, Arcane Theivery forces you to pump points into Domination and use Mesmer secondary, Obsidian Flesh is an Elementalist elite and can only be cast on yourself, Spellbreaker is an elite that already has a huge opporutunity cost and forces you to be Monk primary). But really, I don't think that just the high opportunity costs that are inflicted on the enemy make Gale (Warriors) "overpowered".
I think the real problem is the lack of opportunity costs incurred by the player that's using Gale. As it is, Gale is over-efficient (even on any other class besides Warriors). Sure, you can counter it and so on (although not without a relatively large investment), but it's still a little "too" efficient compared to every other skill available to you in the game and it comes with a low opportunity cost (non-elite, only requires 5 in Air Magic to reap full effects).
I don't think Gale needs to be hit hard by the nerf-bat... it just needs to be toned down a bit. I think either making it cost 10 energy (seems to be a fair amount?), or making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would work. I don't think making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would totally screw that mechanic over either... it'd just kill off the focus swap abuse. These changes might be able to help retain balance while still making Gale a very useful skill.
Thoughts?
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The only defence against this knockdown spell is spellbreaker or obsidian flesh or from the warrior line balanced stance and dolyak signet.
Is this really your belief? You have wracked your brain and you can only see these few skills to counter this spell (we havent even gone over all anti-spell counters, like AC...or Energy Denial....I mean there are myriad ways)? I bet that if you spent 15 minutes with a skill list and actually put some thought into it....you could have a list of more than 15-20 skills. But even given that, AT is still one of the simplest easiest...and its fire and forget.....no need to baby sit. I can't really see any need to use an Elite just to counter Gale....that's overkill.....I would rather just live with Gale at that point (besides, as outlined above tactically, if some warrior is trying to finish me via a Gale knockdown, Aegis...Guardian etc...simple stances...they still deny him his precious DPS). To make an analogy: Is the only counter to a melee attack a Defensive Stance....no...of course we blind that warrior and no need for the stance, or cast clumsiness on them, or ineptitude, or shadow of fear, or Ward against Melee,.....its a veritable cornucopia....
Renegade ++RIP++
Even using echo is still only 1 warrior out of the game for kiting and you still got 2 left which are in most cases enough to get it done. On top of that the signet that disables your elite and you can kiss the doubling goodbye. Which might become a staple build once you start doing that.
Reason for using the ward is in most cases to couple it with guardian or even aegischains which then gives 90 - 100% block. Which as you know is really powerfull unless you carry the counters. Still there are more ways to counter that then just letting them ball up. Just retreating is already usefull, although i still prefer the usage of rigor mortis or warriors cunning. Or jsut switching of targets. Still there is a difference between disabling 50% from the abilities from 1 of the 3 warriors. That is still only 16.67% Heck at most 33.33% and you just had to use your main elite and only effective easy counteroption to do so. energydenial is useless because of the false energy switch. Interruption can be used, as can blackout. But in most cases warriors are left alone and people concentrate on the monks/squishies. Another counter could have been mark of subversion and prolly also diversion, but all these counters require a bigger teamwork or spammingfactor.
sun is in us
List one skill and I can hypothetically counter it ad infinitum.....which is what I love about the game though:
Most teams don't run 3 W/E. And if they do....so what....2/3 ain't bad. Aecho...not Echo....why would I bring Echo to double AT? If you bring Sig of Humilty....hope you are aren't trying to use it against my Aecho......doh. I was playing a Malaise Spammer the other day......energy switch out of your Axe if you like you are still never going to regen...and I just disabled you as you try and wand me to death.... Quote:
Interruption can be used, as can blackout. But in most cases warriors are left alone and people concentrate on the monks/squishies.
I thought this whole thread was about the use of Gale by Warriors? That is who we are talking about here......I don't see many monks using it (but I haven't searched it) |
Mark of Subversion works on spells you cast on allies...not spells on foes. You would use Guilt for that (and yes, I have cast Guilt on Gale users before....always fun to see them get confused by it). Yes, Diversion is another counter. I feel like that Gym teacher that finally puts in the policy "If I hear another 'I Can't do this' outta you people that person is going to climb ropes for the rest of the session."
Renegade ++RIP++
hmm see it now, its a spell on an ally, i just remember it being used on my monk while i was trying to heal people and seeing my spell failing
 . So went a bit further. But I meant guilt.You wouldn't but I thought you wrote down Echo and not arcane echo. Still seeing as i still think that energydenial is kinda useless i prefer an interrupt one which increases casttime of spells. And seeing as you stated yourself that you were spamming malaise, 1 diversion and you can stop your spamming. And diversion is kinda a staple build on nearly any mesmer. It is even a staple one on my ranger. And yes this handles primarilly about gale and warriors, but i was just pointing out that even though there is the threat of galewarriors, they are in most cases still left alone since in most cases the warriors take longer to take out if you leave the monks to their healingjob. Only thing that gets done is warriorhate ergo blind/hexes etc so more disruptive then really damaging. And the point of wanding you is to build up the adrenaline so they can unleesh one big chain on you once you got kited by one warrior. However in all the matches that i have seen, they were mostly using 3 warriors/eles or 2 with gale and a couple aireles with gale as well. Just as a backup or as a safetyprecaution. Its nifty to use on a warrior assaulting you and then running away.
sun is in us
Well, I think someone dropped some coke in my cherrios this morning as I didn't really plan on getting into this topic when I first saw it as:
I think that the whole "case" against Gale is overwrought anyway.....but I felt like drawing a line in the sand today. Like you alluded to, I find Gale Warriors kinda a "meh" anyway. They are still warriors, and there are many counters that take out that axe, even if they Gale you down on occasion. You are right, there are many threats out there besides a W/E. So I guess the main point of all of this for me is: Don't call for a nerf just because something is used often (Nerf Rez Sigs!), and if you are going to call for a nerf, then you better have all your ducks in a row and be able to PROVE that it is overpowered through math/videos/diagrams and that proof has to live through every "test" of it. No perfect scenarios, no talking about the skill in isolation, no ignoring of perfectly good counters that you just don't want to carry on your skill bar (but i dun't wannna carry a snare for a runnner.....etc).....suck it up and carry the counter. So this swirl about Gale is a Tempest in a Teacup to me. If the first post said "Well, here is the build I have been using, and it is totally ineffective against Gale warriors, and our Guild has tried every combination and there is just no way to stop this UBER skill.....hey....then we have a legitimate starting point for a real "is this skill overpowered?" discussion. But when you really can disable Gale so readily with the skills available.....kinda silly really. I like the fact that I can predict what my opponent will be using....and if it were up to me....I would only face Gale Warriors then in GVG....I know their game plan, I know how to shut them down, I know what they have on their skill bar. That is the attitude I feel the community should have regarding Gale.....if for two weeks, one Mes char in every match devoted 1/64th of their time to manipulating the W/E Gale build.....that build would be all but gone....just that quickly.......
Hiryu
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Like you alluded to, I find Gale Warriors kinda a "meh" anyway. They are still warriors, and there are many counters that take out that axe, even if they Gale you down on occasion. You are right, there are many threats out there besides a W/E.
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I think the real problem is the lack of opportunity costs incurred by the player that's using Gale. As it is, Gale is over-efficient (even on any other class besides Warriors). Sure, you can counter it and so on (although not without a relatively large investment), but it's still a little "too" efficient compared to every other skill available to you in the game and it comes with a low opportunity cost (non-elite, only requires 5 in Air Magic to reap full effects).
I don't think Gale needs to be hit hard by the nerf-bat... it just needs to be toned down a bit. I think either making it cost 10 energy (seems to be a fair amount?), or making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would work. I don't think making it possible for Exhaustion to go into the negatives would totally screw that mechanic over either... it'd just kill off the focus swap abuse. These changes might be able to help retain balance while still making Gale a very useful skill.
Thoughts?
Renegade ++RIP++
Sun the point that we are trying to make is not that gale is counterable, since i'm pretty sure that every skill is counterable. Even every hammerknockdown.
What we are implying is that gale is better at its job then any other hammerknockdown that is conceivable. Even the elite one. And to top it off that its penalty is inefficient to stop its abuse since there is the simple switch weapons to get back sufficient energy without getting penalized with the exhaustion. Or do you disagree with the statement that the hammerknockdowns are easier to counter then gale is?
What we are implying is that gale is better at its job then any other hammerknockdown that is conceivable. Even the elite one. And to top it off that its penalty is inefficient to stop its abuse since there is the simple switch weapons to get back sufficient energy without getting penalized with the exhaustion. Or do you disagree with the statement that the hammerknockdowns are easier to counter then gale is?
carl jack
I like climbing ropes
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Originally Posted by sun is in us
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I feel like that Gym teacher that finally puts in the policy "If I hear another 'I Can't do this' outta you people that person is going to climb ropes for the rest of the session."
sun is in us
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thanks to the lack of effective counters against Gale------your team wastes at least 2 character slots out of 8...........Gale to a Warrior's arsenal and their threat level skyrockets.
Heheh ok I'm out. Last Post. I appreciate the chance to mix up it with all of you and see where you are coming from. I, unfortunately, don't think I can make my position any more apparent.
So, Friendly like I say: Go ask for a nerf. Whatever floats your boat. Don't try to counter it, just give up...write ANET...write your Congressman. This is a game of skills and counter-skills by and large, and if you don't want to participate in that part of the game...it's going to be frustrating and I suppose I can see why a nerf is your focus instead. I was tilting at windmills....
I don't ever "waste" a slot by countering somebody elses Skill. AT is one slot that lasts over 30 seconds, and on a standard W/E build, Gale will always be that spell that is gone. Please don't bring a REZ of any kind in your match....it is just a "waste" of a skill as you just trying to counter your opponent making you dead. That takes away from your perfect build you had on paper. Please, never adapt, never react, and never counter your enemy....if they use tanks....don't ever use airplanes against those tanks.....that is just the enemy making you waste a "skill slot" on killing their tanks when you could be using your own shiny tanks. I'm sure Sun Tzu would aggree with that philosophy. Doh...Sarcasm Spasm there.....
Leech Signet, or some other interupts, are a "waste" also. Leech for instance is 45 second recharge, which means you get to prevent the use of ONE SKILL on your opponent every 45 seconds....or choose whichever interupt you prefer...many of them have recharge times and only prevent one skill use in the moment. Wards only last 9-18 seconds or some such......Aegis lasts 10 when up there, stances last 5-14 seconds, Preparations last 24 seconds, Hell, a Crippling Elite lasts 8 seconds or some such.
For my money, 30+ seconds of guaranteed shutdown is probably one of the best cost/benefit ratios in the whole skill list. For some....it is tragedy that they would have to carry it. But hey, I like playing the game; some don't find this part fun.
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Didn't you figure that out like I did? It is operating exactly like they planned. 5 energy was not a typo they just left in there after lo these many months. And I am not worried about the zero exhaustion component...it works the same for anybody. If you want to be perma-exhausted and continually keep yourself between 0 and 5 energy in the pool, that's anyone's choice. And then of course, I was already very familiar with spell counters, so when a build has one spell that the player playing it deems important, and I have AT....then bye bye to their spell if I feel like it (KD/AS combo again).
The real beef I see repeated again and again is some feel it's too efficient...I see it operating as designed, and some just don't want to feel "burdended" by countering it. And heck ya, if you let a W/E using Gale do whatever they like, it sure is going to seem real efficient, but why would I ever want to let them do that? Why do they get a free ride? No, I am going to screw with them every time I see a need to.
And as described, I think Gale (ESPECIALLY in this case as opposed to fighting a full blown spell skill bar), is equally easy to defeat compared to hammer knockdown. Yes we have conditions and so melee can miss, but I play a lot of Mesmer (along with all the classes), so, spell casters are my favorite meal. And that goes double for a Warrior with One spell.....yawn.
Well, I don't mind the burden at all. I will shut down the W/E for the next couple of weeks if I feel like it and have a great time in PVP while many wait expectantly for their favorite Nerf and sitting on their hands when not wringing them. I know who will be enjoying themselves more.....Gale does not scare me in the least. If ANET decides to change......I'll go with the new version also...big whoopdee do. It's just a game after all....
Peace.
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I like climbing ropes
You get laps instead. Oh wait....you weren't whining....ok you "start" in Saturday's game. PS. Yay for Warriors then. Quote:
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