Wouldn't mind having them change the look, as long as it's still possible to Death Nova them fairly easy
Animate Bone Minions (Appearence Discussion)
SirJackassIII
I don't know, it's pretty hard to target Bone Minions already...at least Horrors are somewhat bigger, which is why I usually go for them.
Wouldn't mind having them change the look, as long as it's still possible to Death Nova them fairly easy
Wouldn't mind having them change the look, as long as it's still possible to Death Nova them fairly easy
xenoranger
when I was talking about them doing 6/4 the damage of horrors I'm referring to when you have 2 minions attacking the same target. Sure, it's 3/4 in tandum (if you want to argue symantecs), but the way I use them, they're very effective.
Yes, in later areas where there aren't as many corpses nor enemies weak enough to succumb to minions, it does become a problem. I generally use them where enemy level permits as well as where I'll have plenty of corpses. As such, I often end up with a game looking like the pic below.
Click for full Size
That's normal for me (Except I usually have Blood of the Master as well). I can't understand why people don't find minions as useful as Horrors and Fiends.
For me.. I take based on the following:
No Rangers, consider fiends.
No warriors, consider minions or horrors (*bone shield replacing meat sheild)
GvG, Horrors or Fiends (minions are only good if used as bombs)
Yes, in later areas where there aren't as many corpses nor enemies weak enough to succumb to minions, it does become a problem. I generally use them where enemy level permits as well as where I'll have plenty of corpses. As such, I often end up with a game looking like the pic below.
Click for full Size
That's normal for me (Except I usually have Blood of the Master as well). I can't understand why people don't find minions as useful as Horrors and Fiends.
For me.. I take based on the following:
- Corpse Availability
- Enemy Level
- Other Party Members
No Rangers, consider fiends.
No warriors, consider minions or horrors (*bone shield replacing meat sheild)
GvG, Horrors or Fiends (minions are only good if used as bombs)
My Sweet Revenga
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xenoranger
woot woot.. Animate Bone Dragon!
gonna love that (if it's useful) |
xenoranger
well.. I honestly think that elite Animated whatevers should require a sacrifice.
Also, I would like to see them self regenerating. Not necessarily all powerful, but I mean able to live without having to cast BotM or VS to sustain them. Healing minions really is a pain and seriously reduces their usefulness.
Also...
Ritualists should get a crossover skill that allows minions to live longer. I think they should have varying skills that ARE meant for crossing over between certain classes. And since rituals seem like the illegitimate child of Monk and Necro, it'd only make sense.
Also, I would like to see them self regenerating. Not necessarily all powerful, but I mean able to live without having to cast BotM or VS to sustain them. Healing minions really is a pain and seriously reduces their usefulness.
Also...
Ritualists should get a crossover skill that allows minions to live longer. I think they should have varying skills that ARE meant for crossing over between certain classes. And since rituals seem like the illegitimate child of Monk and Necro, it'd only make sense.
XvArchonvX
In response to Xeno.
I will admit to not running a minion based MM build often since I generally rely on a combination of horrors and fiends. I used to run minions and fiends together on SF farm runs while bringing OoB, but I found it much more worthwhile to replace OoB with tainted flesh to keep all my att in death and put what was in blood with soul reaping. Since horrors are only 15 energy, I never really ran into energy problems with 13 SR.
I can see the possibility of your build running in certain places, but my experience with minions is that:
A. I run out of corpses too fast.
B. Using death nova is really hard to do right since there is no party list for minions and you have to click around amongst a hoard of allies and enemies to get the right minions with just enough health to die before nova runs out and after you finish casting it.
Though I wouldn't discredit your build, I am skeptical that it could run a MM's full potential unless used by a high lvl MM against low lvl enemies (as in the pic shown where you are lvl 20 and the enemies are lvl 8).
As for the general 'what is better, minions, horrors, or fiends', I have to say that if the aim is to create and maintain a large army, the largest army is possible when using a combo of horrors and fiends. I say this because it seems that you reach a certain cap when running any one type of undead creature that your minions will die at the same rate they are created, even without corpses or energy being a limiting factor. With horrors and fiends, energy managemant is easier with the 15 cost of horrors and the maximum army size is increased. Not only that, but you get the benefit of having the shield effect of horrors encoupled with the greater ability for damage and longecity of fiends.
It may be argued that fiends have the same life and damage as a horror, but due to their ability to remain stationary while switching targets and their likeliness to be together and away from enemies, they have less down time in dealing dmg between enemies and are easier to heal/take less damage.
Of course this is all to be taken with a grain of salt, as I know my build is not necessarily the best or only effective build to be used for a MM, but simply what I have found to be most effective for me.
I will admit to not running a minion based MM build often since I generally rely on a combination of horrors and fiends. I used to run minions and fiends together on SF farm runs while bringing OoB, but I found it much more worthwhile to replace OoB with tainted flesh to keep all my att in death and put what was in blood with soul reaping. Since horrors are only 15 energy, I never really ran into energy problems with 13 SR.
I can see the possibility of your build running in certain places, but my experience with minions is that:
A. I run out of corpses too fast.
B. Using death nova is really hard to do right since there is no party list for minions and you have to click around amongst a hoard of allies and enemies to get the right minions with just enough health to die before nova runs out and after you finish casting it.
Though I wouldn't discredit your build, I am skeptical that it could run a MM's full potential unless used by a high lvl MM against low lvl enemies (as in the pic shown where you are lvl 20 and the enemies are lvl 8).
As for the general 'what is better, minions, horrors, or fiends', I have to say that if the aim is to create and maintain a large army, the largest army is possible when using a combo of horrors and fiends. I say this because it seems that you reach a certain cap when running any one type of undead creature that your minions will die at the same rate they are created, even without corpses or energy being a limiting factor. With horrors and fiends, energy managemant is easier with the 15 cost of horrors and the maximum army size is increased. Not only that, but you get the benefit of having the shield effect of horrors encoupled with the greater ability for damage and longecity of fiends.
It may be argued that fiends have the same life and damage as a horror, but due to their ability to remain stationary while switching targets and their likeliness to be together and away from enemies, they have less down time in dealing dmg between enemies and are easier to heal/take less damage.
Of course this is all to be taken with a grain of salt, as I know my build is not necessarily the best or only effective build to be used for a MM, but simply what I have found to be most effective for me.
xenoranger
Actually.. this was just a maxed out location (first time MMing here). I've run the same ammount in "The Wilds" and generally my numbers remain close to 20 if I'm near Droknar. The trick is to support 1 type of minion (using term loosely). If you support Horrors.. that's good. If you support Fiends, that's also good. With Minions though, I can do more killing in less time. You are probably very skeptical about this, but from experience, I've tried all fiends, all horrors, and the popular fiends & horrors combination. Although they work, they don't last as long in areas with dense enemy populations. When you have 2-3 scarabs on 1 horror, it just doesn't work, but 2-3 lvl 20 (or above) scarabs attacking 2 minions works very well. Just just need to spam your calling of targets. Minions are a little more responsive than they used to be (prob due to an update).
Death Nova is excellent to use, but your build has to include Taste of Death for it to work. Just animate, enchant, then eat your minion. You will have complete control over when they explode without having to search through a horde to figure out which is yours.
As far as who's easier to heal.. it's the same for minions and horrors. Fiends are a little more difficult b/c I find they tend to stand further away from you. Even when i have fiends only, they stand slightly outta BotM range, so I have to maintain VS to keep them alive. Plus, I never attack after I have over 12 undead raised. No need. Since I'm not fighting, I start regenerating health. My sacrifices are covered. Alternatively, In some cases, I'll use Parasistic Bond to recover energy. It's not the quickest, but it does regen quite a bit without sacrificing anything.
Who cares about builds. So what... yours is different from mine. Mine spams with loads of minions, and yours is based around endurence animations. So... if it's working for you, then you're obviously doing something right. Bottom line, each player will find something that works. I only believe mine to be better because I've tried your build and it didn't work for my style of play. But, I'll try it again sometime.
BTW...
Do you have Bloodstained boots and anything else that targets corpses quickly? You should if you find you're running outta corpses. Sometimes enemies steal corpses before you get a chance. Although this really sucks, it's the nature of the game. Try doing everything you can to speed up your corpse targetting and animating time. That's universal, and really can't be argued b/c the faster you can raise, the quicker your army will build. And the purpose of a MM is being a battery necro.
Death Nova is excellent to use, but your build has to include Taste of Death for it to work. Just animate, enchant, then eat your minion. You will have complete control over when they explode without having to search through a horde to figure out which is yours.
As far as who's easier to heal.. it's the same for minions and horrors. Fiends are a little more difficult b/c I find they tend to stand further away from you. Even when i have fiends only, they stand slightly outta BotM range, so I have to maintain VS to keep them alive. Plus, I never attack after I have over 12 undead raised. No need. Since I'm not fighting, I start regenerating health. My sacrifices are covered. Alternatively, In some cases, I'll use Parasistic Bond to recover energy. It's not the quickest, but it does regen quite a bit without sacrificing anything.
Who cares about builds. So what... yours is different from mine. Mine spams with loads of minions, and yours is based around endurence animations. So... if it's working for you, then you're obviously doing something right. Bottom line, each player will find something that works. I only believe mine to be better because I've tried your build and it didn't work for my style of play. But, I'll try it again sometime.
BTW...
Do you have Bloodstained boots and anything else that targets corpses quickly? You should if you find you're running outta corpses. Sometimes enemies steal corpses before you get a chance. Although this really sucks, it's the nature of the game. Try doing everything you can to speed up your corpse targetting and animating time. That's universal, and really can't be argued b/c the faster you can raise, the quicker your army will build. And the purpose of a MM is being a battery necro.