Elementalist the new Mesmer?

Warning: This post is not grounded on any amount of research apart from my own personal experiences over the last two weeks. Your mileage may vary. Generally speaking I'm looking for opinions and/or thoughts on the issue.

As mentioned above, over the course of playing for the last two weeks, I have observed two things:
1. I enter a town, particulary any in the Crystal Desert and beyond, and notice I'm one of only two or three Elementalists present. On average there's an equal number of Mesmers. Everyone else is either a Warrior, a Ranger, a Monk, or a Necromancer. This does not take into account the town of Augury Rock, which seems to be the new Monkbot™ haven.
2. In these later areas of the game, and in Deldrimor War Camp in particular, I have noticed a complete lack of "GLF Elementalist/nuker/etc" and have yet to get a response when I "LFG Elementalist/nuker/etc."

My question here is also two-fold as a result:
1. Is it just happenstance and/or timing, or has there been a decline of Elementalists in the last few weeks?
2. Is the lack of requests for such a result of the previous question, or any combination of the following: Necromancers in particular, are just better suited to these later areas; one Elementalist is enough and the group already has one; public opinion of the Elementalist as a mindless Fire Storm AEer prevails among the majority of the playerbase. I called Necromancers out in particular as I see even more requests for them than I do for Monks in these later areas.

Secondly, what role does an Elementalist play in the current game? This question is strictly aiming for opinions from the reader. As I have stated, I have not seen any groups looking for Elementalists. Whereas I see very specific requests for other classes and builds; a Prot Monk, a Heal Monk, a MM Necromancer, a Stance Warrior, etc.

Lastly, my own opinion. I have experimented off and on with various elements in the class, to see what each could do, how each might be useful, etc. In my opinion:

Fire - Fire of course "suffered" the most from the AI buff. Searing Heat and Fire Storm are of questionable use, Lava Font even more questionable; Rodgort's Invocation and to a lesser degree I Bond are still useful in Fire spiking; Fireball is a decent spell for its cost provided it hits. Immolate is still one of the best spells. Meteor Shower is still very useful, especially when used with Echo/Arc Echo and Attunements. The PBAE Fire spells are very situational in my experience.

Earth - Alot of good Wards and Armours here, though as mentioned above I've yet to see a single request for a Ward Elementalist for a group. The damage spells here are primarily PBAE with the exception of Obsidian Flame, which apart from its Exhaustion is a wonderful spike spell. My only question is why Ward Against Harm is in the Water line.

Water - Maybe someone would be gracious enough as to enlighten me here. I've yet to find anything in this line apart from subpar damage, redundant snares, and a handful of situational spells.

Air - The spike line with utility. For the time being this seems to rank up there with Earth for me in terms of overall effectiveness across the board. I've not as much experience with this line as I have with the others but so far I like it. The single-target nature of most of its spells, coupled with the high damage, make it seem like it would be often requested. Again, though, I've yet to see that.

In closing, again, this is simply a collection of opinions and assumptions based on my own observations. Its entirely possible I'm suffering from a terrible case of "the wrong place at the wrong time." Comments and thoughts are welcome (the point behind this post); outright flames will be politely ignored. By all means feel free to correct me where I'm absolutely wrong about something. Thank you for your time.

Like with mesmers, most random PUGs are incapable of seeing the use of any skill that does not do massive aoe echoed damage. The elementalist archtype of echo meteor shower was hurt slightly by the update, and in terms of sheer firepower, the elementalist is eclipsed slightly by SS necros, ESPECIALLY with the gear/keg/book 'exploit' to concentrate the enemy groups into a close area.

Most people are realizing that many ele's are/were too stupid to change their builds. As a result they cause all kinds of horrid agro problems and usually get the group killed. The only thing many of them are good for anymore is stripping for gold.

Both of your statements would then seem to indicate a vast majority still equates Elementalist to "fire bomber." The fact a Sup Fire Rune still sells for several times more than any others reinforces that. That lends merit to my assumption that people are largely unaware of what an Elementalist can do, even those that play one but have never stepped outside the Fire line. I find this to parallel the plight of the Mesmer in alot of ways.

Thank you both for your input.

Still a high demand for nukers in end-game areas like Black Hole and FoW/UW, as a fire nuker can still out damage any SS necro.
I have noticed less about, but i think they've all made rangers, never seen so many rangers around before.

I've been air/heal or earth/heal since mid-august/september using conditions and wards. I have NEVER seen anyone ask for a warden.

The reason for all of this is because people have discovered how effective necromancers are. I remember when I had my necromancer in hell's precipice months ago, and NOBODY wanted a necromancer, mesmer, or ranger. Now you see minionmasters, curses magic, and blood magic all over the place.

They are still usefull... they just thought an ele was only a nuker. just blast the living hell outta them, and set them on fire...

I haven't played much with water magics but when looking at skill descriptions, water magic needs more control from the whole party to be effective. Its purpose is to mainly slow down enemies and enchant lighting magic in certain cases. Unfortunately only Lighting Touch produce more damage to the target when it suffers from water hex. I think ArenaNet should do something about that. Water magic also helps to keep target(s) at area on effect as long as possible. Using it properly needs good timing and usually PUGs don't listen or understand what to do. Maybe it is just easier to kill targets with high damage skills rather than playing with slow down and AoE skills.

Water magic also has two armor increasing skills but I don't know how well they would work. Durations are quite low and can't be casted on allies. Maybe good for E/W tanks if there isn't fire damage.

Ward Against Harm elite skill is water magic although only good for defensive role. PUGs just should realize to stay inside the ward.

Fire Storm is good enough at least in low level areas where melee combat has too much heat. You can scatter enemies and make them run by casting AoE. Just remember to stay at Area on Effect so they run back and get some damage before AoE wears out. Most warriors just chase all targets and then AoE is almost useless. Good to protect monk and spell casters too for awhile from melee attackers.

Fire elems are quite useful in the new Tombs since many creatures in there have low fire resistance. Also, Meteor Showers can't be ended prematurely by Fingers of Chaos once successfully cast (unlike SS).

I'v Seen a rare few good ele's in FoW that could tank dmg better than most Stance tank W/--'s

Ele's have a few "condition" spells; but dont last long enough to make much more of a diffrence; you more than likely have to epidemic the condition spells if your ele primary.

Ele's can "spike" but when do you need spiking in PvE? spiking is much more of a pvp tatic.

In respect to the elementalist class; I think It's much better to have it as a secondary for support magic.

Theres better debuffers out there like; Trapers; Nec Debuffs(man ppl dont get how useful I was when the monsters where doing 6dmg) hardly got into parties as that type Poison/Epidemic rangers... well i guess ranger and nec have better debuffs overall; warriors can get fazed out by "no flesh" then thier condition combo is ruined... I have yet to see 1 warrior use SKULL CRACK other than me... dazed is one of the best disabling conditions...

respect to mesmers they can disable alot of things but not much "support your party" spells...


sidenote fav condition spell; Rotting Flesh, for those pesky target changing stone summit; run around so much bound to hit every one of em...

I think the skills should have been switched in pre for ele, people are encouraged to use fire, and then they don't want to switch from something they know that works. I played water for a long time and water trident, deep freeze, maelstrom and ice spear are very effective against warriors.

As a lifelong elementalist, I can see where you're coming from, but I've just spent the last few days in the high-end spots, and I have certainly didn't notice a lack of eles. Of course, there were only 10 people at all in Abbadon's Mouth when I was there, but still... I really only use fire because I'm too lazy to find that rare group looking for something else, but from what I remember of the attribute lines:

Fire magic is still plenty useful. Just cause monsters aren't idiots anymore doesn't mean aoes are useless. Meteor shower still keeps them in place (for the most part) because of its knockdown, and not only that but when monsters are running around like headless chickens they AREN'T attacking or healing. It took a little adjustment after the AI update, but Immolate, Meteor, Fireball, Rodgort's Invocation, and Meteor Shower put out plenty of damage for me, thank you very much.

Earth magic is downright nasty if you play it right. I've yet to see two geomancers within a week but there's a lot of potential in it. Obsidian flame is killer, if you can accept the exhaustion. Stoning + Stone daggers put out decent damage most of the time, Kinetic Armour rocks, Wards can make the difference between a wipe and a flawless win...

Air magic is a little like fire - except, it's only good against one target at a time. On the plus side, aeromancer armour looks the coolest. Good luck trying to find enough air eles for a spike group in PvE, though. Nonetheless, even one can turn the tide for you if you know what you're doing.

And that brings us to water magic... The retarded kid of the bunch. I haven't counted, but I think there's probably at least a dozen spells that do 10 damage and cause target foe to move 66% slower for 8 seconds. Armour of mist is decent if you're in a hurry, and so's Mist Form, but they're really not worth putting your points into water for.

This has been kind of a rambling post, and I've lost the original message I wanted to get across... Wait, I remember. Elementalists kick ass! Of course, people with their cookie cutter builds in most towns wouldn't know it. It's all echo nuking plus the occasional warder. All the classes have their underappreciated aspects, Eles are no different.

I agree with you; my point was I haven't even seen any requests for that cookie cutter echo nuker as of late.

Thanks to all of the above that have responded. I'm a Geomancer (more often than not) myself if anyone was curious.

As a mesmer, I find Firestorms very useful for when I'm being mobbed. I can run and stand in the Firestorm (if I'm not already in it) and be cleared of most mobs in a few seconds. I don't see how any reasonable team player can consider that as a skill of "questionable use." It annoys me to no end to see the Elementalists think that just because it might not deal damage for 10 seconds that it isn't useful anymore.

....snare + firestorm? Oh wait, that'd require you to make use of 3 attributes instead of 2. Nevermind.

I think you should start to consider your Elementalist as something other than "I deal uber damage." Don't wanna bring Firestorm to get mobs to scatter off your allies? Cool, when I monk I'll leave it up to you to use Wards and Aura of Restoration to keep yourself alive. GG.

i havent payed much attention to this situation in pve recently since i only solo or group with friends/guildies nowdays, but i still see "GLF nuker" quite often in tombs/uw/etc. in the actual tombs, or "hero's ascent" i do witness a real lack of eles. most teams are either ranger spike, iway, or anti iway, and while both use ele skills, they dont include ele primarys. however in gvg, i see elementalists quite frequently. many guilds are starting to use a water ele, and to great effectivness if i might add. people take the ability to move as granted and snares are really underrated

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Try playing a curses necro for a while.

FWIW, I have an ele with 2 million XP, and a full curse necro with almost 1 million XP. The ele can't come close to a good necro for damage output anymore. Ice Golems nuking not included.

As someone who plays both a Fire Nuker and an SS Necro, I can acknowledge that there's less demand for Eles now in the higher level missions and even less in SF. Luckily, I've already finished the game (including the Titan Quests) with both Chars so it doesn't affect me in the slightest. My Ele spends a lot of time in Tombs now, where there is still a big demand for experienced nukers and they are still very effective. I'll take her to UW/FoW on occasion too because there does still seem to be a demand for experienced nukers there. I divide my time between Tombs and ToA with my SS Necro, popping into SF sometimes, but the number of noobs there is more than I care for most of the time, so it's only rarely.

I love my Necro. She's very powerful and she was my first real character in Post. She'll always have a special place in my heart. But I have more fun playing my Ele. With my Necro, I can cast spells and sit back (not really, but you get my drift). With my Ele, I have to be smart and play more strategically. And when I nuke a group and see all those negative yellow number rising above their heads, I get a lot of satisfaction. **

Edit --> ** This is personal preference, of course. Your milage may vary. Please do not try this at home, etc.

dont put mesmers in the same group as eles, mesmers rock and eles dont anymore
though eles have a monopoly in the new UW, most groups have 2-3 echo nukers in them

heh well you see, people in games are as stupid as in real life They go through phases. Right now, the phase is "omg aoe is useless".

Many people play as only one or two classes. They don't have a clue what other classes are able to do, and as such take other peoples word on things. So the mesmer can do no damage (lets forget all about Backfire doing 150+ dmg everytime the enemy casts), Eles are only good as AoE nukers, Necros are worthless unless they SS/battery, Rangers are only worth it in a trapper group, Warriors are all brainless morons who die in 2 seconds and Monks are only there to prot bond you.

I'm still seeing the usual "group looking for nuker/bonder/tanks" messages. I'm still not seeing people ask for rangers or mesmers. But then I usually have local chat turned off (since I now refuse to PUG).

I'm trying to get an Ele going myself (lvl 10, frostgate) and so far i'm having fun with her and the henchies. I was thinking of a Water/Earth ele, but now you guys say Water is so rubbish... hehe. I'll try it all out though. I know its pretty nice against Plague Devourers (seems they don't like cold, it does double dmg to them so I can hit them for over 100 each spell hehe).

Oh and as already said, AoE still rules. They never seem to run until after 3 hits, so thats (3 x damage) x *amount of enemies* which is still nice, AND stops them attacking you AND stops monks healing themselves/others. A well timed AoE can really help make the fight.

Anyhoo guess my overall opinion is that 90% of gw players are too ignorant of the game, or too stuck in their ways to ever know what to truly look for in a team. Phases are gonna come and go, in fact its just like FOTM builds in PvP. Just more like FOTY for PvE

Ok, as a life-long water ele, I think I need to set some people straight about water magic. Do you ever wonder why water magic doesn't do a whole lot of damage? Maybe, and here's the kicker, It's not supposed to do lots of damage!!! Just clicking on spells and making things go boom is not what water is about. It's about hexes. Lots and lots of hexes. AoE hexes. Hexes that can cover other hexes and can fuel some other conditional skills. You know that necro elite Feast of Corruption? Now, imagine a team using that after a water ele cast deep freeze on a group. Another useful thing is, Ward against harm in the RoF missions. You know how everyone hates fighting the inferno imps? Set up a ward and anyone smart enough to stand inside it will not die nearly as fast as people outside it. I personally think people don't like water because it takes more skill than "What spells in this line can I use to do the most damage so I can put all my points into it and Energy Storage?" It's meant to work with your secondary and even other people's secondaries. Oh, and never tell me it's not fun to kite a warrior after slowing him down and spamming water trident. And, with that, I close.

Oh BTW I agree with Mathias Deathwater aout water being extremely useful.

SUPPORT:
Ward vs. Harm
Rust (3x longer signet cast time = warrior enemies die faster)
Blurred Vision (50% miss rate on ALL attacks by enemies)
Armor of Frost (Survivability in locations with no fire damage)
Frozen Burst (good for W/E, a 66% slower snare)
Maelstrom (a GREAT 10 second PvE interrupt for caster groups, Terror Web Dryders in particular)
Mist Form (like Blurred Vission, but 100% miss)
Water Trident (knockdown when the target moves)

As you can see, the skills that I like all do not really do damage. That is because water is a SUPPORT LINE.

because it gives extra armor against fire

PvE mainly in my opinion. But there is at least 1 air spell that does extra damage to one under a water hex.

Air spiking is very effective when done correctly. IWAY can be made useless. 5 Lightning Orbs followed by 5 Lightning Strikes can take out most any +10 regen and spike healing.



As for Earth, this can be used for terrific tanking as I can get 212 armor with 3 skills that can be maintained about 95% of the time.

Whoa... I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite PvE skills. I must be losing it.

Oh, and I thought of another use for the snares. You know how IWAY warriors need to be close to do their damage? Enough said.

Mathias, glad you posted here, since Diablo 2 i love water and ice stuff, so I'll stick to my water ele hehe

"Why nuking (and offensive Elementalists in general) sucks"

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

>.>

Glad I could help. It just irks me that people completely dismiss water. Of course, that IS the very reason I decided to go water, because noone else would.

It's the suckers who think that Ele's can't do anything but Nuke.

Ele's can REALLY cause damage to a single target, and completly reverse an IWAY group with lots of immolats and air spikes. they drop like fly's.

As to Mathias Deathwater, What element is better than water? really, none. Water, in short, has some of the best Elites for Ele. Water Trident, and their slowdown skills, and their anti-attack, and the hexes, can bring warriors to their knees.

I like to think I've seen what most classes can do. I've been an E/Me, E/Mo, E/N, E/R, W/Mo, W/N, W/Me, W/E, N,Me, Me/E, Me/N, R/Mo, R/Me, R/E and the list goes on...

But at the end of the day, I'll always come back to my E/R. I have tried every Element since the AoE nerf and didn't like any one of them apart from Water; and I've never looked back. Water is my favourite Element just for the diversity. With my Magic, I snare the enemy, make him miss with attacks and poison him with my arrows. Then I hit him with Barrage and set Booboo (My Bear) on him. Now tell me Water Magic's Rubbish.

Reason I stopped picking up Ele's anywhere: Most of them have IQ's of -50 and act like idiots now that their precise AoE was nerfed.

Like in this group the other day doing one of the Southern Shiverpeak's missions. Alot of Warriors, 2 monks, 2 eles. That used to be like..the "Hulk Smash" everywhere group. Ok, We go up to some Mesmer enemies, and they of course give every one of the close range party members a helping of speed reduce. Whats the Eles doing? Of course BOTH are casting Firestorm on the thing, so the next 10 secs or so turns into half our team limping around uselessly while the enemies are going every which way degening and killing our team.

heh quite so, I'm like you Mathias. I refuse to be an echo nuker, or an SS necro. I play around to find the stuff I like. I've been a ranger from the start, who are always rejected unless trappers are wanted (i will trap, just coz thats downright fun ). As I said in my first post, most people want the quick, easy, thoughtless build, and to be honest, I can't blame them, but that means people like me who want to play something effective AND fun get rejected or forced into a different build. Hence I stick to my henchies. They love me no matter what, and as much as I hate Alesia and Mhenlo's healing, they're still 20 times better than most pug players.

I absolutely love Blinding Flash for my Air El. It has fast recharge and it ties up a htH combatent for 9 or 10 secs... giving that monk time to heal and/or run away. My first attack ALWAYS is to either Blind the enemy ranger or fighter.

But I tell Pugs that I'm using it and that my first spell is not going to be flashy. When our side is not getting hit as bad... folks come around.

You have obviously never gone with an order group. 1 war for tanking, 5 barrage/interrupters, 1 order, 1 monk. OOV/OOP (+17 at 16 curses, +19 at 18 curses) + 3 targets (avg of 40dmg) + 5/1 vamp string (15hp) * 5 rangers = Almost 1000dmg per Barrage volley. That's every 2 seconds or less folks.

In comparison, 5 air ele spikers can do about 590 for every Orb volley, if my memory serves correctly.

Just as a FYI, an Earth+Water Elementalist absolutely rocks in the new Tombs area, in particular a Warder. Using Ward Against Elements along with the water spell Ward Against Harm, you'll be amazed how much it helps against those Dryders. Also, Ward Against Melee and Ward Against Foes is very effective when those lovely little Grasping Ghoul thingies come swarming in on your group. Also throwing Deep Freeze in the mix is a good idea for slowing enemies up a bit. And for some damage and knockdowns, put in Earthquake and Eruption. Don't forget Earth Attunement, it helps on energy costs a bit. But anyway, in my Tombs groups, I always make sure we have a warder in the group. It was kind of funny/obnoxious how there was one person in one of our groups, who I guess you could label as "noob," who was going on and on how useless a warder is. But to make a long story short, he lagged out while loading into the Courtyards, and we finished Tombs in a total of under 2 hours, lol. So Elementalists that use other magic besides Fire do deserve a chance, if they know what they're doing, they can be a huge help. As far as your comment towards water magic in general, imo the best use for it are the slowing spells, and the status-affecting spells such as Blurred Vision, which can pretty much temporarily shutdown an annoying tank enemy that won't leave your monks alone. But above all, playing an Elementalist takes more pre-battle thought, and more skill in general is required. So despite what anyone says, Eles are not useless :P

Well ever since the AI buff causing the enemies to scatter does make people who aren't particularly skilled in playing Elementalist just plain stink. It doesn't take a lot of skill in the first place to 'nuke' so I'm glad they made the monsters smart enough to get the heck out of there. Mesmer is a tough class to play with horrible armor and not too powerful skills, so most people don't want them with their party.

If you think the mesmer has not to powerful skills, your are VERY sadly mistaken

we are however very tempermental, and need EXACTLY the right skills in PVE, for every area

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this comment. Mesmer is a harder class to play, true, and some say it is the hardest. It takes the most pre-battle thought of any profession. But they have the same armor rating as any of the other casters (60), and if you use Noble or Virtuoso armor, you'll have more armor while casting. Rogue's armor is also good for better defense. Also their spells are indeed very powerful, if you know what you're doing. If you have 16 in Domination, put Backfire on an enemy monk. All it has to do is do its usual Orison spamming, so 3 Orisons would deal a quick 450-ish damage(~150 per), likely finishing off that enemy. Mesmers are all about taking out tough enemies, and very quickly. But sadly what you said is what most people do think, that simply being because they have not tried truly playing as a mesmer. But in a group that actually plays the game as it is meant to be played, not using "book tricks," etc, that is where Mesmers shine. Many whine how impossible Thunderhead is. Try having a mesmer in your party, one that targets the effectiveness of the bosses at the end. For that annoying Monk boss, use combos such as Arcane Conundrum, Power Spike, Power Leak, and Cry of Frustration. That slows its casting time, making it very easy to interupt. If it's the Perfected Armor you're having trouble with, use spells like Ineptitude(elite), Clumsiness, Empathy, and Soothing Images. This blinds the enemy, damages it every time it attacks, and prevents it from gaining adrenaline. So overall, a Mesmer is very powerful, you just need a knowledge of their skills, and a little thought as to what enemies you'll be facing.

I deleted my Ele for a Mesmer and have been having a lot of fun. Now I have to admit part of my reason behind deleting the Ele was because of the AoE nerf. I had months of playing the nuker, bombing the hell out of everything. It was a pretty brainless build that I had. With over 70 energy, I could cast firestorm, meteor shower, rogarts invocation, pheonix and what not in any order I wanted to killing pretty much everything I was up against because they just stood around. With the nerf nothing I was habit set into worked. I couldn't get around it or think up anything that worked. So I deleted her and made a mesmer.

Now the Mesmer is a totally different class of its own, very challanging to get something working right for you. If course though, like with my ele... I developed habits. This time however with the mesmer think build... good habits. I can interupt skills, I can energy or life drain. As mentioned... THK... I was shutting down everything I could... the main difficulty of the mission was not those I was up against, but those I was teamed with. I wasn't doing much damage against the Jade's but they couldn't get their skills cast as long as I had an interupt charged and ready to go.

I don't see Ele's becoming the new mesmer. I see the mesmer becoming that the Ele was before the nerf. People like myself, had to have our normal routine broken so we could see what else was out there. Instead of nuking (granted it was fun) I go into battle with stratagy and plans. To those who hate mesmer... remember how annoying it is to face a mesmer boss. Now think of what it would be like to have a mesmer on your team. Instead of being shut down and drained, your doing it. Mesmer shine in their own way indeed. Love thy mesmer. I love mine.

i welcome mesmers and earth/water eles in my group all the time, i appreciate the mesmers and off-normal eles

I like the mesmer, my first PvP like everyone else was the searing. 2 mesmers, stepan and alesia. We look at each other and decide to go out fighting. We hex everyting that moves, and steam roll them 11-1.

Lets face it "I'm a wammo with a sup absorbtion and Droks",

cool "I'm a mesmer that cast hexes that ignore armor" we can melt their life right out of them.

My old guildbattle/Halls Ele build tanked damage better than 55 monks and tank warriors, but only if I was casting continously. Usually we'd run two of them (my friend was better at it than I was), where we'd tie up the entire other guild trying to kill a single Ele, while the rest of us walk up the back while they're too frustrated with the invincible ele to notice that they're getting ganked.

But that was aaaggeeees ago. They've nerfed Ether Renewal twice since, I think.