Why sundering mods are bad.

Sixty

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

In general, sundering mods are bad. They provide very little benefit in comparison with other mods. First of all, there are only two classes that can even use a sundering mod: the ranger and the warrior. So, in order to explain how other mods can be better for you, consider this:

Q: Why do you use a sundering mod on a warrior or ranger?
A: To increase your DPS, of course.

Now, if you wanted to take this from a technical standpoint, you can. Since an axe or sword attaks a 1.33 second attack rate. With a perfect sundering modification, a perfect +35% ideal axe will only increase the average dps 0.293 (against an unbuffed 60 armor target). For that extra 0.293 dps, you're spending a large sum of gold for that modification.
On the other hand, you can equip zealous modification for superior energy management. With 1 pip of energy regeneration and with 1 hit for every 1.33 seconds, you'll have around 1.08 energy per second. So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.
Now, assume, you didn't want to use your energy skills. You want to run some sort of warrior loaded up solely on adrenaline skills. First of all, that's a bad idea - using frenzy can easily help your dps better than a sundering. So, compare this to other mods:
Using an elemental mod, you can negate other warriors' +20 armor bonuses, which turns that 100 armor to 80, so you'll be causing another 25% damage.
If you didn't want to do that, saying you won't be able to kill rangers well, then you can also use a vampiric weapon. A vamp will increase your dps to 25.91, with five damage per hit armor-ignoring.
Finally, people think that their sundering mod will help their damage against a higher-armored target, such as a warrior. Well, so what? With your 10% sundering mod, your DPS will be increased by just .207 to just 11.127. A vampiric mod, however, will cause 10.92 DPS plus 3.76 from the vampiric mod, for a total of 14.68 DPS. Finally, using an elemental mod against a warrior target will cause your DPS to be 15.44 against that warrior. Your zealous mod will give you 16.3 DPS. Looking at those numbers, even against higher armored targets, sundering mods can provide less benefits than any other mods, except perhaps furious and elemental (in the case that it's not against a warrior.
When you look at these numbers, you come up with this:
22.133 DPS against a 60 armor target with a 10% sundering mod.
21.84 DPS against a 60 armor target with a zealous mod, but you gain around 1 energy per second (including energy regen), and frenzy can be used to kick up your DPS to 32.6. In addition, using frenzy will increase your DPS further.
Even an elemental damage mod will increase your damage better, with a 25% bonus damage on a warrior.
A vampiric weapon will give you -1 health degeneration but will increase your DPS to 25.91, but will give you 5 health per hit.

Finally, sundering is the most expensive of them all. A sundering mod will cost tens of plat, while a zealous mod will be a could plat at most, and elemental mods are mere hundreds. A perfect vampiric may cost 20-30 plats or so (not sure; it's been months since I last played pve) at the most.

Hopefully this post will help the mistaken GW players that are intent on using their sundering mod. All numbers were taken using the GW damage calculator and the built-in computer calculator.

Lt.Crumpet

Lt.Crumpet

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Michigan

R/

ok A: you rock. number crunchers are just plain frikin cool.
B: dont kno ( and im too lazy to look ), but i THINK this may have been addressed before. not to rain on your parade tho, good job with all that.
thanks from us all

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
21.84 DPS against a 60 armor target with a zealous mod, but you gain around 1 energy per second (including energy regen), and frenzy can be used to kick up your DPS to 32.6. In addition, using frenzy will increase your DPS further. Is it just me, or did you mention frenzy twice? Other than that, good job.

Ristaron

Ristaron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Canada, eh?

Legion Of Valhalla

E/

unienaule beat me to saying it, so I'll just pass on my congratulations and spare you the critisism.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

I always knew sundering was useless and only good for selling so that you can buy 6 vampiric and other mods :P

linkid

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

ETGD

N/Mo

I don't really know how sundering mods work, but you need to correct the zealous mod:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixty
On the other hand, you can equip zealous modification for superior energy management. With 1 pip of energy regeneration and with 1 hit for every 1.33 seconds, you'll have around 1.08 energy per second. So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.
You gain 1 pip of energy degeneration, so you'll only gain 1 energy per 1.33 seconds (or 4/3) and lose 1 energy per 3 seconds. In a twelve second cycle, you will attack 9 times (gain of 9 energy) and lose 4 energy due to degen, for a net gain of 5 energy (assuming you hit every 1.33 seconds). 5/12 is 0.417, which is far off the 1.08 you hinted (which would be correct if you gained 4 energy in the 12 second cycle like you suggested). Still, I do agree the zealous mod is better than sundering in most cases. Frenzy can be used anyways and maintained without a zealous hilt (8 seconds, 5 energy, warriors gain 2/3 * 8 or 16/3 or 5.333 energy in 8 seonds without zealous). But then if you use frenzy why not use a zealous mod

Good point about the elemental hilts. You can always have 3 (collector) weapons, one with zealous, another with elemental, and one plain (or vamp/sundering) for maximum effects of each.

What I haven't been sure about is the "armor-ignoring" damage from vampiric weapons. If I put 0 points in axe and go up against let's say minotaurs, I only see -1s and -2s, although I have a 3/1 vamp mod. Maybe it does 3 extra damage that's not shown, but I've never been entirely sure about it. Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixty
A vampiric weapon will give you -1 health degeneration but will increase your DPS to 25.91, but will give you 5 health per hit. If you're talking about axe or sword (1.33 second attack cycle), it is only 3 health per hit max, which would change the math (again).

VGJustice

VGJustice

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tyria, cappin' ur bosses

Boston Guild [BG]

R/W

linkid, don't forget that with a Zealous mod, you gain energy one every hit. So, if you use a skill like Hundred Blades or Cyclone Axe, then the energy regen increases dramaticly.

Nit picking aside, nice work debunking the Sundering Mod with your l33t uber math skilz0rs. /clap

Vermilion Okeanos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2005

I think the article need a bit mroe organization.

From the start, I assume he talk about axe differences, yet near end he wrote "5 health per hit" (only hammer and bow is 5 /1). Then what happen in between? Was those all hammer or bow's DPS?

Other than that, nicely put.

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixty
So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.
Frenzy would make it 50% more damage. The increase in speed is in seconds per attack, not attacks per second. The game's funny like that.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=114209

Quote: Using an elemental mod, you can negate other warriors' +20 armor bonuses, which turns that 100 armor to 80, so you'll be causing another 25% damage. It's not 25% more damage.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Quote: A perfect vampiric may cost 20-30 plats or so (not sure; it's been months since I last played pve) at the most. 10-15k; prices tanked because idiots want Sundering instead.

Quote: Originally Posted by linkid
5/12 is 0.417, which is far off the 1.08 you hinted (which would be correct if you gained 4 energy in the 12 second cycle like you suggested). He's talking total energy regen. Normally a Warrior has 2/3 energy per second. 1/3 more energy per second, or one more pip, isn't too bad, especially with area attacks like Cyclone Axe.

Still, I do agree the zealous mod is better than sundering in most cases. Frenzy can be used anyways and maintained without a zealous hilt (8 seconds, 5 energy, warriors gain 2/3 * 8 or 16/3 or 5.333 energy in 8 seonds without zealous).
Quote:
But then if you use frenzy why not use a zealous mod Because I'd be using Vamp then.

Quote:
Good point about the elemental hilts. You can always have 3 (collector) weapons, one with zealous, another with elemental, and one plain (or vamp/sundering) for maximum effects of each. 1. Sundering is crap. Don't even suggest it.

2. There aren't collector 15^50 axes or swords, and only a craftable 15^50 sword at Drok's.

Quote:
What I haven't been sure about is the "armor-ignoring" damage from vampiric weapons. If I put 0 points in axe and go up against let's say minotaurs, I only see -1s and -2s, although I have a 3/1 vamp mod. Maybe it does 3 extra damage that's not shown, but I've never been entirely sure about it. It's shown as +3 health on you on your end, and to your enemy they take an additional -3 damage (Life Steal). It's not damage per se; try hitting someone with Mist Form with a vamp weapon, or watch a person taking damage from Warriors in Observer mode.

striderkaaru

striderkaaru

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer

W/

you forget to mention one more reason why sundering mods suck:
idiot sellers who put perfect sundering on a weapon and expect you to pay an extra 60k when all you want is the base weapon.

fiery

fiery

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2005

maryland

InYurFace Gaming [IYF]

R/

sundering on a bow negates the resistance through a elemental armor,damage through smiting, and not through piercing attacks i think.

BBoy_Manchild

BBoy_Manchild

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

dayton ohio

N/Mo

i think he just pulled numbers out of his butt, but hes right in that sundering is garbage, it just comes as common sense to me, dont need a flow chart and a bar graph to show me what i have known through good ol' experience

Hyunsai

Hyunsai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

A/Me

Always thought sundering was garbage the first time someone explained me what it was...
And when I think of the price of this, I always roll on the floor...

Destruction Exile

Destruction Exile

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

VA

Heavens Death Knights

W/E

all mods besides Vamp and aderline are pretty useless.
All you need is a weapon with 15% base and your pretty much good to go. Even modding it with the 20% plus is more useful than that.
People worry too much about the skin, but seriously...some might think is not even worth that much. Just because some people thinks that skin are important doesnt mean others will. Meaning if some1 called some1 eles a newb for not paying the C/O price, then screw it.

The Real Roy Keane

The Real Roy Keane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Dublin, Ireland

I've always been torn between Vamp and Furious(with a Zealous for switching of course.)..how about a thread comparing the merits of those 2 eh?

Esrever

Esrever

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Looking For Guild

Vamp wins. The extra damage it puts out beats Furious by a long shot.

BBoy_Manchild

BBoy_Manchild

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

dayton ohio

N/Mo

i use furious when farming against groups with less numbers then bon defense adrenaline number, never lets me down, even though its only 10%

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

I use Sundering on my PvP bows frequently when I dont want elemental damage, a vampiric or a zealous weapon

Poison Ivy

Poison Ivy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Toronto

Hopping

Mo/A

All I wanna say is that if anyone reads this thread, it's one less costomer for my max Sundering upgrades !

Ninjutsu Honor Code

Ninjutsu Honor Code

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Holland

Sidon, Order of Assasins

R/W

Max sundering is 10% right chance of that happening is super low you can compare it to hitting when your blind...

Effigy

Effigy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Illinois, US

Heroes of Talia [HoT]

Mo/

I think you guys are making this too complicated. It's easy to see why Sundering is weak: 10% penetration X 10% chance = 1% penetration over time, on average. That's right, on average a perfect Sundering mod is giving you 1% more armor penetration.

Zealous is nice for energy management, but if you want more DPS, vampiric is the way to go. Or elemental if you use conjures.

Nater

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Illusion Of Skill

W/

So there's absolutely zero point in putting any points into Strength save for the skills?

Sol_Vie

Sol_Vie

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Boston, MA

Blood Of Orr [BoO]

Wow an anti sundering thread that no one's flamed the OP for it. Amazing!

Vamp and Zealous are the only mods I'll currently use. I recently found a perfect furious mod and was wondering if by "Double Adren" is means that it doubles the amount you currently have or if it provides double the adren for that strike (i.e. you hit someone for 2 strikes of adren rather than the normal 1)?

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nater
So there's absolutely zero point in putting any points into Strength save for the skills? What else would you put them in? Tactics? The reason to put them into strength is because there's really not that much else that is useful to most warriors, and since you could easily get a 9 in Str with no effort at all, that's 9%, not 1% and a wasted mod slot on your weapon.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nater
So there's absolutely zero point in putting any points into Strength save for the skills? Pretty much. Also if you're going to be dumping points somewhere it at least gives you something.

Peace,
-CxE

Riotact

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

Australia

Elite Renegades

W/Mo

for an axe, whats better no upgrade or fire/ebon/lightning dmg? whats the difference if im a w/mo with no fire skills etc.

Effigy

Effigy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Illinois, US

Heroes of Talia [HoT]

Mo/

The difference between elemental mod and no mod is just the damage type. If the enemy has less fire/earth/cold/lightning resist than physical, it will do more damage. This is why it's good to use an elemental mod that isn't heavily resisted. Fire is the most common elemental resistance, so it's not a good choice usually.

Bleidd

Bleidd

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Effigy
Zealous is nice for energy management, but if you want more DPS, vampiric is the way to go. Or elemental if you use conjures.
Agreed. Furious I suppose if you're using an adrenaline-intensive build; honestly I don't see how Sundering begins to measure up to the others. I do enjoy selling them to people that seem to be unable to do simple math though. ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nater
So there's absolutely zero point in putting any points into Strength save for the skills? 1 point of Strength = 1% armour penetration per attack skill. That is, it doesn't affect your regular swings (so many people still seem to think this), only your attack skills (e.g. Cyclone Axe, Final Thrust, etc.).

From my own experience even 10% armour penetration (i.e. 10 Strength) doesn't amount to much. I'd probably drop Strength lower if I didn't use a Strength based shield (and only til I find a better Tactics one). Edit - This might be more effective with Axes or Hammers? I'm a sucker for swords and haven't really fooled with the other two.

My weapon of choice? Zealous [sword] of Defense, 15% ^50. But that suits my build. I guess I just fail to see where a Sundering mod would really compliment any build. Likewise with the Swordmanship et al mods...

Rajamic

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

IA

Chronicles of Heroes [CoH]

R/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Effigy
Zealous is nice for energy management, but if you want more DPS, vampiric is the way to go. I'm going to have to disagree with this. I use a Zealous bow to increase my DPS, by it allowing me to spam bow attacks as soon as they recharge without letting up for about 2 minutes. That definitely improves my DPS, I'd argue it has more effect than a 5/1 string does over a long haul.

Symbol

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Wait, wait. I thought strength was 2% AP per point on everything. But it's actually 1% per point on attack skills? Has it always been broken like this?

Edit: NM, I just checked it out in game. Apparently it's intentional and the in game description is correct.

Effigy

Effigy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Illinois, US

Heroes of Talia [HoT]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajamic
I'm going to have to disagree with this. I use a Zealous bow to increase my DPS, by it allowing me to spam bow attacks as soon as they recharge without letting up for about 2 minutes. That definitely improves my DPS, I'd argue it has more effect than a 5/1 string does over a long haul. Well, you have a good point but you're looking at it kind of obliquely. Zealous helps energy management, not DPS. Energy management helps you sustain skill spamming for an extended period of time, which in turn raises your damage output. DPS is damage per second, and zealous isn't going to raise that because it doesn't increase your damage per hit and you can spam skills with or without the mod, you can just do it for a longer time period with. Hence, vampiric will improve your spike damage and zealous will improve your damage over time (assuming you use a fair amount of energy skills).

Mandy Memory

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

5 vampiric damage and 1.33 attack time? you are using multiple weapons there...

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

California

[Dark]

W/

lol billy
did you calculate the 10% chance that the sundering will even come into effect?

Warskull

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2005

[out]

I have no clue where the actual numbers came from in this post and would not rely on them to be accurate at all. However the underlying message is true. Sundering is one of the worst mods in the game. If you want damage, vampic gives it. Zealous gives superb energy. If you want a weapon to swap to with no drawbacks furious is the way to go. Sundering is a miniscule damage increase.

As for strength, it really isn't that great. It will get you a couple of points of damage on your attack skills. It is really there for the skills and as a point dump.

erezsol

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mo/Me

BTW, can you put a Zealous / Vamp / Furious mod on an IDS/FDS?

kvndoom

kvndoom

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Communistwealth of Virginia

Uninstalled

W/Mo

Sundering is e-penis enhancement. It sounds cool, you know. "Sundering!"

sun·der
v. sun·dered, sun·der·ing, sun·ders
v. tr.

To break or wrench apart; sever

Yes, my weapon is SUNDERING! I am leet and mighty!

No lie, I saw a W/Mo in Thunderhead last week spamming "W/Mo with 15k plate and Sundering Chaos Axe LFG." Uh, those are good credentials if I ever saw any. Sign him up, there's no way we can lose!

I know I sometimes rant in the anti-farming threads about the game being based on money and not skill, but that's not true. The economy is based on vanity, but thank goodness that money can't buy skill.

It's the Emperor's new clothes, folks... that false sense of security that you got something better just because you paid more.

H2SO4

H2SO4

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Ireland

A/

meh aside form all the sums I see thisL: 10% chance of 10% armour penetration to me thats a 1 in ten chance of there being an extra 1/10 damage or whatever. I do have a sundering upgrade but only coz I canott get a bleeding one at the moment

Ghull Ka

Ghull Ka

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Seattle, WA

Grenths Helpdesk

N/

Firstly: I agree with the spirit that sundering is little more than a vanity device. Second, I hope that none of the patsies that I will be trying to sell that stinky Victo's Axe will read this thread. :-)

Worst mod in the game, preset on one of the neatest looking skins. Tragedy.

Warskull

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2005

[out]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghull Ka
Firstly: I agree with the spirit that sundering is little more than a vanity device. Second, I hope that none of the patsies that I will be trying to sell that stinky Victo's Axe will read this thread. :-)

Worst mod in the game, preset on one of the neatest looking skins. Tragedy. The best part is how the price on Victo's Blade plummeted while that is actually a perfect weapon. 15>50%, 3/1 Vampic, +30 HP. While armor may be more useful than HP, +30 HP is still a very respectable mod. People just don't like vampic weapons because they fail to understand how they are susposed to be used. You switch to a non-vampic between fights in PvE.

master_ranger_matt

master_ranger_matt

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Salt Lake City, Utah.... no im not mormon

Radicals Against Tyrants [RAT]

R/Me

Sundering does not do that bad against tanks, and in PVP and PVE past kryta, elemental strings, hilts, etc. are terrible. The damage a sundering takes away is like taking away half of a piece of tank armor, which no matter your viewpoint is pretty good. Zealous is just plain bad i think because most of the time you are not actually attacking, and after experimenting with it, I don't think it works at all. So that leaves you with vampiric. they give decent damage, but they give that nasty -1 health degen. Vampiric isn't that bad, but not that good either. for PVP and PVE I always just use sundering because it is easier and a piddly 1-5 extra damge doesnt matter a whole lot (admit it, It might oinly give you 1 extra kill out of 50, not really worth the money, and not really worth the faction unless you have some to spare). So basically most mods don't really matter in thw whole scope of things. Sundering just gives you bragging rights and makes you seem rich.