Why are there so few mesmers around in PvE?

Me=Dumb

My bad.

i have a male mesmer (one of my only 2 male characters - of 7 total), and the reason i made him male was simply because they RIVERDANCE! every time i see that it reminds me of the opening scene from "Baseketball" and i still laugh.

seriously tho, a friend of mine got me into this game and told me it was created to be alot like MtG (a game i had gotten him into YEARS ago). he compared the mesmer to playing a blue deck- said that the mesmer often REACTS instead of acts (which to me is a lot like a counterspell deck in MtG). ive found that to be very true, and in my opinion, the mesmer is the most difficult class to play well. that, to me, is part of the reason they arent as common - the difficulty. another reason i think we see fewer mesmers is that they arent as useful or flashy until later areas of PvE. heck, they arent even NEEDED until then. but once the boss monsters start getting harder and harder, the mesmer shines. when interrupts count more than damage and energy denial comes into play, no character can do that better than a mesmer.

1. When I created my Mesmer, I henchied her all the way from Ascalon to Desert. The rest of the missions I did with guild teams. I never even tried to get her into a PUG since it's a well known fact that Mesmers aren't welcome anywhere. That's ONE possible explaination why you rarely see Mesmers - they don't hang around much in towns and outpost. Why would they when nobody wants to have them anyway? Grabbing henchies and go doesn't take much time.

2. The fact the Mesmers aren't welcomed by the vast majority of GW players is well known. You can safely assume that it kept a LOT of Mesmer characters from being born. If you aren't in a large guild, why would you even create a character you can't get into a group with?

3. No other class comes with that many stereotypical prejudices attached than a Mesmer. You constantly have to explain people why Mesmers are even valuable. I know for a fact that a number of people deleted their Mesmers at a certain point when they couldn't stand hearing all that bullshit anymore (e.g. "Rangers can bring more to the group than Mesmers"... ROTFL... No, they can't. A Mesmer can't replace a Ranger either. They are different classes, with different skills and different objectives. Both are useful and valuable.).

Unfortunately, a lot of people think along the line like Ensign put it above. It's true that Mesmers are harder to play then any other class (I have played all six). Thus a player needs to be somewhat skilled to use that class to its potential. While this argument is perfectly valid, the worst than can happen to you is that the slot is being wasted. A bad Mesmer usually isn't dangerous to the party, though. An aggro happy Warrior is dangerous. A clueless fire nuker is dangerous, too. A clueless healer Monk will lead to the entire party getting killed. I'd rather have a useless Mesmer in my party than a dangerous Warrior or a clueless monk...

Baseline: Either I have some trust that the human I am going to pick up will sufficiently perform or I don't. If I don't, I am better off with henchies anyway - regardless of the class. Why this argument is directed against Mesmers more than other classes is beyond me, to be honest.

PS: The main point of Energy Surge is NOT to do AoE damage, the main point of ES is to suck the target's mana away and do AoE damage as a (most welcome) side effect. Comparing ES to Desecrate Enchantments is kinda funny, to say to least. But yes, I agree that SS should have been a Mesmer skill...

Wherever I go in PvE as mesemer... I will have to be the party leader, there are no 2nd about it.

One of the biggest thing about Mesemer is that one do not see what they are doing. Not like someone will bother to toggle through all the monsters around to see if they have -10 degen on them or not, nor will they bother toggle through to see if all the monk monsters are backfired.

People can see monk healing, and feel monk healing; people can see warriors tanking, and enjoy the safety; people can see elementalist dropping meteors or wards, as they just eat some BBQ after; people can see minions outnumbering the mobs, as if resident&evil re-live on your side; people can see ranger placing many traps, and see mobs' HP drop by half before reaching the tanks.

People can not see mesemer making opponent miss; people assume all blindness came from ranger or elementalist; people assume interruption are all by ranger; people do not realize degen decrease the life of each group of mobs; people assume backfire's damage was from warrior or elementalist. There are defintely more.

Mesemers' effect are just not "visual" enough for majority of the people out there. In that sense, mesemer in the group only leech for exp, gold, and a free ride.

The only chance mesemer get notice is through their 2ndary. Their primary abilities are hard to notice even by the most elite out there, unless you are personally under a mesemer's pressure or your team mate just scold you to get rid of that mesemer.

*hug*

However, mesmers are unlike blue decks in that blue was the most overwhelmingly overpowered color for many years

Debating mesmer PvEness is so drowned in opinions and varying understandings and experiences that I'd prefer not to touch it with a 10 foot defensive staff of defence.

I mainly agree with Ensign's pug mesmer view... even though I am one.(although I try to delude myself that I have a little skill )

Mesmers are soopah fun in PVP..

.. if I had one more character slot, I'd make a mesmer. I love mezzies so much. Just all my slots are full. One monk, one warrior, one necromancer (my first character), and one ranger--my latest.

I remember noticing one day that a lot of people ran enchantment-heavy in the random arenas, so I decided to bring a build with echo, shatter enchantment, energy denial, and mind rack.

Roffle.

Unfortunately, I fall prey to this belief, too. I'm normally reluctant to choos a mesmer in PvE if only because my understanding of mesmers (during the time I've used its secondary and my PVP experience) tells me that mesmers are very good for controlling a monster or two.

In PvE, when monster spawns are large and mostly uniform, I can't see a reason to bring a mesmer.. besides that mission in the Ring of Fire with the monk boss.. ;P

I'd hug ANet if they let me buy an extra character slot without purchasing another damn account.

i always got groups for missions as mesmer but each time id have 1 or 2 oarty members go "Why do we have a mesmer they suck" People really dont understand, dang racists

Go stand in thirsty river or any of the last missions and go afk, loads of fun. There the people have learnt the mesmer lesson :P Really just try it, it's almost like being a monk in the rest of the game.

I enjoy playing with my mesmer and I proudly have about 3.3mill exp on my male mesmer. I am still having much trouble finding groups that appriciate a mesmer...And when you are trying to kill the 4 monk team in FoW dont tell me a mesmer is not useful...

It wasn't until abaddon's mouth that I started seeing "GLF Mesmer with backfire"

it only takes till the end of the game for people to realise the usefulness of a mesmer.

If Anet wanted to increase the importance of the mesmer, start to include more nasty monk-type monsters in the game.

One reason is due to the ignorance of many people with the "farming team" mentality. They feel that since Mesmers' damage at times goes unnoticed, that they are useless when compared to a Nuker who sends out a series of Meteor Showers. It's ridiculous, but I do see that general assumption beginning to change. More and more are exploring different Mesmer builds in PvE, and finding that they make certain "impossible" missions much more bearable, are beginning to see how Mesmers can turn the tides of a battle with ease. Our guild, Acolytes of Lyssa, is making an effort to help promote the use of Mesmers in groups. So if you're having difficulty with a certain Mission/Quest, shoot a whisper over to my IGN when I'm on

I believe that most use mesmer as a secoundary eg N/Mes.They possibly tried playing primary mesmer but found it difficult.I made one up and I found that you can't specialize in one area say domination.You need an assortment of skill on you bar.I will agree playing this class is not easy but it still isn't as challenging as playing monk.

primary mesmer are excellent. the problem is that u actualy need to know how to play... it's not a character for noobs. i respect warriors, but anyone can create a warrior and slash some mobs.
u need brain to use correctly a mesmer.
we just beated defend denravi in 4, i was mesmer and i destroyed titans in 6 seconds. when someone is able to use epidemic the results are awesome

I run pure domination builds all the time and eat monk bosses for dessert. Not to be rude or such, but I'm confused as to how you made the conclusion a mesmer can't specialize in a particular line of magic.

what do you guys run the Mesmer with? or its pure Mesmer? reading this is it sounds like is not going to be easy to play with people thats why my question u run a pure mesmer? or M/x.?

I was thinking M/E what do you guys think? and this is for the people that have mesmers PvE not PvP .

I not looking for you guys to tell me what Build or skills i should use, i am looking more for a Mesmer that will be able to get me to drok with Hench, if find people to join is that hard. i dont fancy M/monk.

Ps. i never get run, i enjoy playing the game, so dont say pay a runner, and Mesmer forums look old posts and most is about PvP, that i know it already. need feedback from Mesmer PvE players. (again) plz post i want to make a mesmer TODAY

Thanks

In heroes ascent, mesmers are certainly not underappreciated; in fact almost every balanced group contains an e-surge,migraine or utility mes. I do agree that it's rare to see a group looking for one in most PvE areas though..ah well,just go make a 55 mes and solo the UW.

1. they're hard to play.
2. a lot of people are pretty ignorant and think anythnig other than ele, tank, monk, and occasional necro are terrible.
3. (in my opinion) I don't enjoy playing them, and i would guess there are many others out there who share the opinion.

Instead of M/E, go E/M for echo nuking.

There isn't much in the game can survive 3 - 4 meteor showers, and mobs cant run away with so many knockdowns. Nothing any mesmer can do comes close to that.

i undertand what u mean, but i have a ele and just wanted to try the Mesmer as Prim on PvE.

just wanted to know do u guys run Pure mesmer or use the 2nd proff? and what one u have Mes/? not asking what the Best yet

Thanks Again.

This was early in game for me as I only made it to Lions Arch.I just found I could specailize in one area maybe later in game you can.I found self healing a problem as well unlike necro and being in poisonous waters.We all know how Alesia is about that.I would give it a shot agian if I has way more char. slots.

Early on you'll probably be using mostly mesmer skills, backfire, empathy, conjure phantasm etc. If you can get to droks and pick up elites early, you could try warrior secondary for illusionary weaponry + flurry. It rips mobs apart in PvE until the jungle.

Later in the game you might try necro and combine the hexes with your mesmer ones.

I'd say more accurately that Mesmer skills are very situational, as are several non-Fire Elementalist skills and a good bit of Necromancer skills. These classes have to fine-tune themselves to that particular quest/mission to be most effective, whereas a Healing Monk will always be able to heal, a W/x will always be tanking/DPS. Couldn't comment on the Ranger, minimal experience with that profession.

Actually I meant just what I said, mesmers are situational no matter what skills they use. Only very late in the game when interrupts become most useful against bosses and they can put the hurt on casters do they become a real help to a group. With rangers being able to interrupt too one of those uses is gone.

It took the aoe nerf to force people to start looking at other classes, which is when the ranger really got noticed. Though where rangers were underappreciated, I dont agree that mesmers are. People know they can bring something to a group, but they're right in thinking it's not enough to pick them over other classes.

I can understand the frustration mesmers have finding groups, but other peoples ignorance isn't to blame. The fact PvE is made easy simply by tanks holding agro and monks healing/protecting while damage dealers slaughter everything means the class itself has little use outside of PvP.

I run mostly pure mesmer build... though I have 45 energy. I can if need be, become an echo-nuker. Now my ele had like 80 energy which makes echo nuking work like a charm. But thats the only thing I miss about my ele.

Ahem,
1 Interupt Mesmer + Grawl Unglodytes (sp?) = Ascalon foothills masacre
1 Mesmer + Shiverpeak Protectors = easy Borlis Pass and others.
Later those nasty Fire Imps get slaughtered by Mesmers.
Even the Jungle Trolls get slaughtered by Empathy.

Please, unless you REALLY know Mesmers, do not make generaized comments like that.

Yes, but that invariably turns into "WTF? wheres the heals? u are so noob, monk!"

This is exactly true. There was a time when it sucked to be Necro, too, but enough of us got out there and proved to monks how valuable it is to have a BiPer alongside them; then we proved the value of a solid Spiteful Spirit build; then we demonstrated effective Minion-running...

But it doesn't work so well for Mesmers, going back to the first comment (a Mesmer's work is near-invisible). If Mesmers can't show their value as easily, they'll have to start taking their credit.

During the early runs demonstrating BiP, I used to get monks complaining "why is your health dropping like that? Stop sacrificing health, noob." So I would. All of a sudden, everyone in the party would notice the monk pinging his energy and everyone complaining about the healing. There's ways to make a point.

Echo is one of your best niches. Show it off. Once people start taking notice, move on to Backfire and the various Power (Drain, Block, Leak) skills.

One other problem might also be the Mesmer armor value. I don't play Mes primary, so I don't know if this is just from poor evasive manouvers, but Mesmers seem to be frequently first down on the battlefield (or second to Eles).

Were you being serious with that post?...

In case you hadn't noticed all those mobs/areas are easy without the help of a mesmer. Why bother interrupting mobs when they die in seconds?

Sorry but I see nothing in that post that suggests you know anything about mesmers other than basics in the early areas of the game, so dont accuse me of not knowing the class.

Actually, I PvP with my PvE mesmer. I went from rank 3 to rank 6 playing mesmer. I beat all of the missions to Abadon's Mouth with hench and my mesmer. If we were to meet up and I found myself suddenly responsible for shutting you down, I would win.

I made those examples because they are early in the game and you said that...

You are ignorant to the uses of mesmers, I will not argue with you about this at this point, but because of your general ....tty attitude people in the PvE could go on believeing that mesmers are not for PvE.

They are very good, but ignorant people like you keep them from enjoying the game.

Its not that the mesmers die easily, but the mobs always know to target the biggest threat.

Mesmer armor is base 60. Same as Monk, Necro & Ele.

Yeah, lets blame my attitude for the lack of interest in mesmers instead of class design and game mechanics.

The blue analogy with MTG is a good one.

I used to play control decks in MTG and was drawn to Mesmer for just that reason when introduced to GW.

In MTG Blue had SOME key powers (countering) but a mono deck was never very effective : crap at dealing damage, crap at getting the win, great at controlling the environment.

In MTG there were 3 (ancestral recall, time walk, and timetwister) that were so broken people had to play them in most decks - the equivalent would be 3 totally overpowered weapons or skills in GW - MTG banned those cards, GW would nerf them

So to be effective blue players in MTG always combined it with other colours (pretty much)
In GW therefore - a mesmer wouldnt be solely a mesmer - they'd need something else for the win - either themselves, or in their other team mates.

Funnily enough when you FIRST started playing magic - you looked at blue and saw the HUGE creatures (10/10 Leviathan) and thought WOW - and didnt notice the countering until you were a bit more experienced.

As you go along in magic you start to see how blue is supposed to be used, and if slow thoughtful (and very annoying) control suits you - you started using it yourself .... that's why it's really tough to play Mesmer in PVE as you simply dont get that opportunity to see how it's played well against you. I daresay it's more possible to see that if you PVP / observe PVP - but it still doesnt help you much for PVE as the environment and foes are so different.

I dumped my mesmer and moved on to creating a monk as I realised that I simply wasn't *getting* Mesmer - I knew it was *like* blue in magic - but my skill level was not up to it.

I think it still isnt .... working through monk, necro and ranger but think it will be a long time before I can be an effective Mesmer.

Sister Spice

In terms of farming groups, Mesmers tend to be less helpful, because most farming groups go for places where the standard Tank, Monk, Nuker will be able to clear it out very fast, after all farming is all about making money as fast as possible (then again, most of the good farmers do it with their guild or solo, which are both more efficient that pickup farming groups).

In the early parts of the game, Mesmers also tend to be less useful. Most enemies are pretty weak and just using brute damage is enough to get the job done. Enemies don't have any particularly nasty spells that needs to be shutdown.

However, in the late game, Mesmers really shine. With the right build a Mesmer can easily shut down 2 or more enemies. Since most of the time you are not fighting more than 4 or 5 enemies, a Mesmer can effectively "tank" half of the enemies. I really don't get the purpose of the second or third "tank" warrior in pick up group. The same is true for an extra Monk. Two monks are not needed at all if half of the enemies are disabled. In terms of dealing damage, Mesmers can do a lot by using echo to place empathy or phantasm on several enemies very quickly, which usually does more damage than a warrior can.

However, all of this is theoretical. In order to use a Mesmer with this much efficiency, you must know the mission and area well. You must know what types of enemies you will face (ex: the Shiverpeak areas that have gnashers, heretics, ice imps, and siege golems tend to place many hexes on your party, echo, shattered hex, inspired hex, maybe hex breaker or mantra of frost will allow you to shatter hexes many times and stay at very high energy, so you can cast other stuff such as backfire or interrupts. You will probably do as much damage as a fire nuker while getting rid of hexes). However, when you pick up mesmers most likely they do not know the area that well and will bring the wrong skills. This is not only true with Mesmers but also true with all other classes. One common example is warriors who advertise as tanks (I'm not picking on warriors, but it's just the most common one). A warrior is not a tank because they have some more armor than the other classes. An elementalist with earth spells, a mesmer with mantras/resistance, a ranger with stances, a protection monk... they can all tank better than warrior armor. A warrior is a tank when they have stances or armor enchancing skills such as dolyak signet and watch yourself (in areas without enchantment removal, some monk healing/protection spells will work as well). Warriors can be the ultimate tanks if they choose to be (in many missions, a super tank is not needed, so they can optimize their build for another function).

Basically all classes can do a few specific tasks very well. For a mesmer, some of these include interrupt, shutdown, and hex/enchantment removal. In the end, whether the build is effective or not depends on what the party needs. For example, a party can choose not to need any monks at all. Heavy tanks, interrupters/shutdown and maybe one or two nukers can do fine with one basic healing spell because all the damage sources are tanked and/or shutdown (for those who don't believe me, note that warriors have been able to solo almost all of Mineral Springs and much of Ring of Fire and some parts of FoW and UW with healing signet as the only source of healing, add a bit of shutdown, condition/hex removal, and a damage source and you should be able to take on just about any PvE area without a monk primary if your party is smart enough).

My wife got a second account, and has one char in each profession. She reports that the mesmer is pretty good, but not quite as good as the Ne/Me. On the plus side, I think she looks really good in her nightgown armor ...

What I'm not convinced of in PvE is the big advantage to making mesmer a PRIMARY class. Obviously, that depends on the strategy. Does Fast Casting really matter when interrupting monsters? Does it matter enough for any other purpose at all (OK, rezmers)? I have a few elementalist builds in which I'd like Fast Casting over Energy Storage, but not enough to give up the fire runes.

Next, if you're going interrupt, are the runes all that valuable? If not, is there a high value to the extra attribute points in any line except Domination? And even there, isn't the temptation to echo your favorite spells, in which case you'd really appreciate a bit of energy (and healing) from an elementalist primary?

My uninformed guess is that there's something to be said for a PvE Domination/Inspiration build, but that a mesmer primary doesn't have the same versatility of strategies to be worth taking as a PRIMARY character.

Another reason for not taking mesmer as a primary profession is that it makes a great secondary for almost everybody.

Elementalist: Ether Feast is wonderful early in the game -- over 50 points of self-healing without attribute points. And the most popular late-game builds are the echoed ones.

SS Necro: See Elementalist. Also, disruption is thematic.

Warrior: Epidemic could be fun for a conditioning strategy, especially if you don't need the energy elsewhere. I imagine SV would be nice for a tank. Plague Touch can become great defense. And the stances last a lot longer than warrior stances, if you want to use "in a stance" items but focus on other skills.

Ranger: Actually, I see less of a fit here, but a ranger has so much going on that secondary professions aren't that important anyway.

Monk: My wife thinks the Blood line is better for energy gain than the alternatives. If she's right, I'm not sure there's a great fit here either.

Anyhow, my point is that a lot of people play around with mesmers as their secondaries, which is another reason not to play them as primaries.

And as a bonus:

Second Easiest Ascension Ever (at least that I've heard of): Mine, with Backfire + Ice Spear
Easiest Ascension Ever: My wife's Ne/Me, with Backfire + sacrifice spells

I have a male Mesmer.
My Mesmer is such a powerhouse Spiker for PVE, but most people need Eles and such.
Figured I can do ~550 dmg with the skill set I have excluding Backfire. So I think my Mesmer is fun.
Just I think Mesmers start to get alot of their good skills at and after Droks which is why most people dont follow through with them unlike how Rangers, Monk, and Warriors tend to get tons of skills before Droks.

My reason - 4 character slots.

I just had to have a ranger.

Necromancer looked interesting so I had to have that too.

I made a w/mo and I was bored out of my mind so I wiped and casted a M/wo - much better. I enjoy playing supporting class and healing people's sorry backsides.

That left elementalists and mesmers for last slot. It wasn't an easy decision but I eventually went with elementalist so I can play hydro/geomancer.

There are days when i wish I made a mesmer instead. I even considered buying one more account just so I can make a mesmer. But now that Factions are coming up, I'm hoping they will have more than two new character slots so I can use extra slot (sorry I must have assassin and ritualist) for mesmer. Warrior is definitely last on my list but if Factions come with 4 slots I'd make a warrior so I'd be able to play all classes.

I would just like to say that I completely agree with you. I started the game out with Mesmer, mainly because everyone everywhere said that it takes the most skill and it's not for the new player. So, the danger looking person I am, I decided I'd only half-take thier warning and put on a monk secondary, since after all that seemed the most sensible to have (and actually it is, necromancer is the only other good secondary in my oppinion.)

As it turns out... I was right. No other classes take any skill to play, with a few exceptions, and everyone just constantly runs crappy cookie cutter classes. And the sad thing is... they can win with them. So much for the skill in the game, I can fight a warrior with a mesmer, but without a monk on the team, you're ultimately screwed. No random arena for mesmer. Ever. Don't even know why they bother putting it on the map when you play mesmer.

EDIT: I noticed someone mentioned Rezmer. Notice when I was talking above I was saying how I started as a Mesmer/Monk. Me and my friend created Minion Factory build, whether or not you believe it, it's the truth. We originally used a 55 monk with IoW for the deaths, and then I had max fast casting with resurrect. At the time I really didn't know much about necros, I knew they could sacrifice life, I just didn't know how well. Unfortunately when we created it, E/Mo smiters were the FOTM, so smite+undead=failure. But fun.