The GW Community - whats wrong?

I didn't say the idea was a particularly good one...

Ok. This isn't as true as it may seem, there is not a good way to dump someone who is a problem without having good communication paths with the other people in your team. Of course, if you are in a guild, that is easy, but this scenerio happened on many occasions:

My friends and I would have 2-4 people, and we'd invite another 2-4 people to play along. Unfortunately, one of those 4 we invited turned out to be problems. So, we'd have to _break_ the team, and reconvene in a particular district to drop the fella. That sucked, especially when you were 1/2 way through the mission when you got tired of all the profanity/stupidity. Further, trying to get those innocent 1-3 people to join back with you was difficult.

Perhaps a 'kick' button (for the team leader) would be useful. Perhaps in a mission, it would even replace the dead-beat with a henchman of the same class?

P.S. Now that you mention it, I was actually a bit rude during one of the tombs matches. I was trying to be funny, but the other team took it the wrong way ;( Worse, I didn't say anything when we won -- a good game would have been much more appropriate. Thanks for reminding me that manners apply on-line.

Well not enough people remember that in a mmorpg you are playing with people, not just npc's.

Yes, you can. I spent most of the weekend doing the earlier missions just as you described, helping people who were having trouble to find the mission objectives. I've never made it past the D'Alessio Seaboard mission because I enjoy helping others with the earlier missions. Part of this is because I remember how frustrated I was getting from asking questions and never getting any responses. Everytime I see someone asking a question I can answer I'll answer it. Last month I spent several hours just running people to the Census. Since I didn't start a new character this month, I had no idea where it was, or if it was even a quest any more. I also really liked the fact that a lot of the maps had changed, although it was pretty confusing at first. If anyone wants help with anything next month, send me a private message and I'll give you my in game name.

I spent around 1/4 of my time on the begining levels this weekend. I got no xp, but helped a few noobs get past the begining levels. I remember how tough it was originally for me to figure things out.

I helped a few less experienced (lower level) characters through earlier missions so I could farm and pick up a few odds and ends...I didn't get much "stuff" out of it, but one of them gave me some silver dye from a drop...It was one of those feel-good moves you make once in a while for the momentary glory of it and the praise of the few...

Later though, what a mess! I couldn't get to Lion's Arch...VERY frustrating...Mostly issues with people just not working together as a team...lots of running blindly into the fray (or unneccissarily causing the fray to start with)...How many times can you tell someone to kill the sorcerrers who are making the minions FIRST. I thought Rangers called shots for a reason...Would you beleive I finally gave up on "live" groups for an hour and ran with all henchies to find the sweet spots...On average, I got farther with four bots than with five "live" folks...something to be said for AI that does its job, eh?

Overall, folks were friendly and some of them were very entertaining...I got a real sense (on more than one occasion) of what it would be like to see The Three Stooges in the land of GW...I actually waited for 15 minutes to finish a dragon run while two of my teammates bickered over the price of a hammer that dropped...It was assigned to a character who couldn't use it and insisted on selling it for top dollar...uh, "gold peice"...because it said in the info that it was worth 120gp...the warrior wouldn't move on until the sale was complete...I was temped to fire an arrow at a dragon or two just to increase the urgency of the situation, but it started to get funny:

elementalist: "c'mon ladies, let's get going already..."
me: "really, can't you wait til we get there?"
warrior:"You don't understand...this is IMPORTANT...I could SO pwn with that hammer..." *turns back to necro* "50gp is better than you'll get for it from an outfitter..."
dragon: *yawns*
mesmer:"brb...gotta pee"
me: "me too...and get more coffee"
*five minutes later*
warrior: "Dude, seriously...60gp and that's my final offer."
*monk smites dragon...fight is on...*
necro: but it's worth 120"
*dragons (4) pound monk silly*
warrior: "I only have 70..."
necro: "ok...i'll take 90 for it"
me: "a little help here..."
*monk runs...dies*
me:"wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww" *got confused and tried to run while messaging...died*

you get the idea...STUPIDITY=entertainment, from the right perspective...thank you, devs, for secondary monks with res.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03-19

I really enjoyed this BWE. Well, to be honest it was my first BWE (tx to those *** Euro-sellers). I played with a group of friends from another MMORPG (or whatever) and I must admit, GW community is friendly.

Of course you have the lil' kids spamming "DEAD N00b" after they won at the arena and the Sell&Spam-sellers in every city, but on the whole I think this isn't such a bad community. Almost every city I visited, I saw little "LFG". Why? Cause most of the time ppl were inviting eachother into groups and starting missions. Yes, there were some stupid groups ("I'm targeting BIG HORDE OF MONSTERS" - while 2 ele and a monk were recharging energy), but most of them were fun. In one group someone even asked me if they could see the entire cinema-thing halfway the mission, cause they missed it last times. At the end I found out that it was possible to complete a mission with a 60pct death penalty

If I would compare this game with others I played: D2/UO (aka Hackers Heaven), Knight Online (getting spammed in Turkish is quite an experience) and my last RPG-experience Conquer Online (CO: see a community go downhill in a year ) I must say that GuildWars lived up to my expectations. No looting or KSing, just some very few curses and all in all a great game and community.

I have to agree on that one, i also played multiple online games, mostly RTS tho, If you compare the GW-community with Starcraft and other RTS online gamecommunities, you will find that the GW-community is relatively friendly. As some stated allready, there will always be a bunch of guys who think they own the place and start flaming everybody...

The problems described here are pretty much a function of human nature and will be found in pretty much any online game.

You do have to be aware of a certain silent segment of the population. A lot of guilds, (mine included) communicate almost entirely on teamspeak and rarely even look at the chat interface. So that's a lot of quality people that you aren't hearing from. (and probably won't unless you join the guild)

Eventually though, one way or another, you will build up some sort of social support structure. You'll find those decent, like-minded individuals that you can have fun playing with. Then you can pretty much ignore the Suckmuppets and l337 []D [] []v[] []D pains in the arses and just have a good time playing with people that you know and respect.

If the GW community at large isn't up to standard for you, then find a bunch of people that feel the same way and make it better (at least for yourselves)

I think you honestly nailed it on the head Romak. The people who are doing this are not used to a team setting. Let's face it (especially in FPS games) there are those player, those good players, those Great players. And the Great player tend to be the ones who make the win. This I've seen happens in most RPG's too (the higher the lvl the more expectation). This game however not only asks for characters to work cooperatively but DEMANDS it. If you want to run in front of the team and do your own thing then you have doomed your team. As everyone previously said, there are some really great teams (and many sucky ones), noone has encountered this type of game before (except maybe AD&D players... the board type) and doesn't know what to expect or do. But this problem will only disappear when those accept it, or log off... and if they want to fight by themselves there is that ability in GW too.

Lansing Kai Don

P.S. I think most of the vulgar language comes out of frustration... which if they ever stop and think about it... is what makes games great games (noone plays an easy game long... unless it is freakin hilarious).

P.P.S Sorry for the choppy sentence structure, replying at work

i will be helping out for 2 simple reasons

1 i enjoy it

2 the more people who are helped and find out they like the game instead of dropping it in frustration and go on to tell their friends

*here is a good game, join me* is one or more sales to keep the game going instead of bankrupt

i win both ways

It's simple ...really....


No matter what online game you play (I've played D2 up to now..same thing there), you are ALWAYS going to run into this sort of game player.

Just learn to sort them out and be done with them. True..during something like these BWE they will be the majority, but that will not hold for long. Upon release of the game..a good number of them will be gone. Their own frustrations at not being able to do anything because even though they "know everything" yet can't accomplish anything will sour them to the actual game. Not a problem. It just means that soon enough I'll be able to find more players like me. Though I have zero experience in PvP , you get the same thing running PvE. All good things take time. Be willing to take it to find the right ones to run with and enjoy the company. And above all..be willing to listen once in a while. I've run with a few warrior or mage types that mistook this for a typical onliner more than once....(rush the group of baddies like your a god and smite them).....they died VERY quickly and painfully...
Myself; I didn't die..hang back call out a target or two..make them come to me then wipe them out at my own leisure.

All online games require a certain level of "wading" boots awareness
(if you're mature enough to understand that..you're mature enough to give a go at running with in my book)....

This past BWE I made a new character, met a few people..about 3/4 I disregarded, and genrally had a great deal of fun

I did create my own guild..but purely to know how to do it..and because like minded PvE people may be encouraged to join in the future..but otherwise..I didn't really run into too many trash problems because I didn't let them be an issue to me.

First of all....I'm sorry but I can't answer what's wrong with the community but I noticed it too...last BWE, my very first ones I started playing and once i reached around LvL 6 I decided to enter the Academy....didn't know that it'd warp me away and I wouldn't be able to go back...well then the good part started, the PvP and the Grawl-Mission, I really REALLY enjoyed the short PvP and when I arrived in the other town I was wondering where to do PvP there since I was very addicted...sad thing I had to run through 5 districts and spam for help till I found ONE person willing to lead me to the Arena and really help me....quite sad, still the greatest game ever

You really have to understand that the type of game your playing has an impact on determining the community you deal with. Were not going to see the same kind of arrogance you have in most traditional mmorpgs but its not going to be the kind of "quick chat" u get in alot of FPS. This game is different from every game really, so im guessing the community will be different than most other games.

Just like the battlenet community evolved into what it is known for, this game, in its own time will develop its own unique community. I guess all you can do is wait and see.

.02

isnt it a wonderful feeling when the bottom sinks just that tiny bit and a small edge allows a trickle of cold water in before you can backpedal?

Glad I am not alone, HotSnack.

Since I am a N/R, I usually rise the corpses. My 9th and 10th times through Gates were very pleasant and quick. We barely stopped and only one person ever died (we were attacked by 5 drakes at the same time ).

I really have to agree here. Since GW is a game also for the casual gamer, you should also expect to find people who come on to play for a little bit of PvP -- and that means fast, intense, and then, you go back to your life. Unfortunately, when I go into cities, I don't stand around waiting for questions.. I almost never even look at chat, since it's mostly market spam. When I set foot in cities, it's usually because I need a skill, item, or some other clear objective that I'm there for. And then I leave.

I chat and fool around in the GH.

This might not seem very friendly, but at the same time, I really doubt that anyone screams, "STFU U NEWB.." and all other pleasant things like that. I find that people tend to be pretty independent on this game. And, especially with the incredible wealth of information not only on this site, but also in the abundance of well-made GW fansites out there, you can pretty much get every question answered if you just bother to look.

I might be a bit harsh here, but I've always had a habit of searching for things first before asking (unless I'm in a great rush), and well, unfortunately, I tend to expect the same of others. It might be a bit cold.. but it's nothing personal, and independence isn't a bad thing. I could stand around answering questions all day long in Ascalon, or they can just go to GWG and read the articles in that new players' center. It's like that saying of "give a man a fish, and he'll be full for a day. Teach him how to fish, and you'll feed him for life."

Just my .02 also.. or rather, it's probably already been a dollar.

Guys,

Thanks so much for all that replied. You gave me some great ideas.

FYI - I am a Guild Leader with about 20 great people in it (Dark Knightz). I just wish people would listen to (or help) others that are truly good people.

I guess I will just wait to see how this pans out and play the RETAIL game.

I just wish there was a way to have your Guild members join you in the Arena - meaning you can select who goes with you into battle...it then would truly be a "Guild War"...just my .02 cents.

Thanks,

FUBAR

Well you could come on really early when no one is playing and then have your guild slaughter themselves

Just an idea.

Why not just GvG? You can have plenty of wars with another guild, but only on a 1 guild vs 1 guild basis. And I'm glad to hear that you have a great guild -- but just to throw another two cents in (I'm running out of change..).. the forums are a great way to meet people, also. I just said in another post that everytime I go to LA, I see someone that I recognize from one of the fansites. It's incredibly eerie, but at the same time, rather nice to have a community like that -- even if it's a bit hard to break through in the beginning. The shortcut? Forums!

P.S.. LOL Kiwi..

I generally find it best for me to be quiet. Especially at the beginning. Im still learning alot about the game and trying to figure stuff out. Im quiet for Im not going to tell someone how to do something unless I am sure I know what I am talking about. Plus, just because people arent talking out loud doenst mean that they are being cold. I'm in guild already and I spent 90% of my chat time talking to my guild. I bet there are others who are doing the same thing.

im sorry but i dont think there is anything wrong with the community of gw.

try loggin on to diablo realms and see how many times you get disrespected just for standing still in town.

so far from my expireince in guildwars, in the tombs before the match starts, i see alot of people saying things like

"hi"
"gl"
"hello"
etc..

and after the match is done, even the loosers say "gg" = good game
no not everyone speaks in such good manor but i must say, the % of people with good manners in the tombs before/during/after matches is pretty high compaired to other games ive played.

i havnt gotten mad not once while playing pvp in gw's. due to many people being friendly and whatnot.

being a diablo fan for some time, i cant stand it after an hour or two now.
all you see in the pvp games is a bunch of kids naking everyone and calling others "nubs" you very seldom come across somebody with good manors in diablo.

i cant wait to crack my diablo cd and toss it in the trash. april 27th we go.

There are so many pages on this, but this replys to the first post.



seems like 75% of people online act like 12 year olds.

Your lucky you get the kinds that dont talk much, rather then the spammers that say things like "OmGz)o(rZ U pPls R eTH WL00z3rrsssss !!11 1!11!11!!1!1 1 oneoneone one eleven!1!!!!1"


Its very sad but online gaming is going down the generation.

The best thing you can do is find the mature people and stay with them.

Hey VOD, I tried to connect to your vent server, but it runs on an older version, oh well

I'm in a clan for Condition Zero and we have a vent server too, i'll be on the next beta also.

I agree. There are people who make the game worth playing and others who dont. The majority of games I palyed on Counter Strike: Source, when the game ended, people were saying gg and good job. Of course there was also those who went off on long foulmouthed rants calling everyone haxors and noobs. But they usually ended up getting pissed and leaving the server.
This isnt really a cure all solution, but if more people tried being more respectful of others playing, more people would be able to enjoy the game without these aggravations.

First of all,

Thanks FUBAR for posting this thread. I read the whole thing and can identify with yours and others frustrations.

I can also identify with the guys that had a blast!

Weezer says most of the players are assholes. I tend to agree some with that statement. I sometimes think - where the hell did he come from ? What planet did he arrive from ? It takes usually ONE ass to mess up a group. And as some other have said in this thread - LESS is sometimes more. I have finished countless missions with half the group.

I have a pretty bad strategy with asses when I play monk. If they rush and think they can solo - I let the suckers die. If they still continue to die - I wait a fair while untill I res them again.

On one occation I never ressed they guy - we just left him there , he he.

PVP Pick up groups!
I have been in some awesome groups in PvP. I had one where Zen knight and Limited Edition were group leaders. Man, did they rock. They also took the time to discuss strategy and give us assigned tasks and answer our questions. Needless to say - we had the Hall of Heros at our feet with a pretty standard group. That experience weigh up for all the bad ones.

Nash, told me in another thread to get into a Guild - and he is right. I am looking for a guild that use this community, in particular. If any of you guys got a good guild - hook me up!

I know the admins hook up with the Devs and I have run across Ensign and others in PvP - on the opposite team. I am a little jealous - since they seem to have well cordinated and fun groups.


I have many times replayed missions, we played Riverside with a Level 13 Monk, she was pretty good but lacked a lot of juice. My Warrior/Mo carried 6 healing spells on that mission, and I helped her out and we did just great with a lot of low level players. I was level 18 and could take a hit or two.

I sometimes replay some missions as high level - just to have some fun with PvP pick up groups are making me insane. It is sometimes a lot of fun. I am currently in a guild, but they have no high level players and they announced that thet were not doing any GvG this time...

Nash tried hard to put together a team from the Guild Hall, but it wasn't very successful, - no faults to Nash. Fault to noshows and some sucky players.

I still don't understand why groups can't Follow Target callers or listen to strategy, and just do random crayzy stuff that gets everybody killed...It is probably inexperienced players.

I do not think it is going to get better after release. You are going to see a lot of UBER groups. Fiannas days will be numbered. Pick up groups are going to be Cannon Fodder. Your only chance to ever se the Hall is to join a dedicated guild.


Again, FUBAR thanks for the thread.

In-game bad manners are, unfortunately, often part and parcel of the whole PvP thing. I'd like to say that too many people think that mannerly play is somehow unmanly play... but that would be make a gender-specific reference and I would never do that. *ahem* I think that we need to improve our filter for offensive words, so that people are disinclined to swear and name-call. And I think that as players we may need to develop a bit of a tough hide to let the insults of the poopie people roll off our backs. Lastly, I think we need to continue to try, continue to model good behavior. Never, ever sink to their level; always, always show the best that you can, and hopefully another player or another guild will rise to your high levels.

As to the community as a whole, and social aspects of the game, I wanted to toss in a couple of ideas, too:

All of our BWE guests are very intent on getting as much gaming into a weekend as they possibly can. There just doesn't feel as if there is time to be sociable because people want to take on another quest, go do a bit more PvP (not PK, silly, PvP! ) or run through a mission. I believe that when the game is out, we'll see a real switch to a more relaxed and sociable atmosphere. People won't feel they are "wasting time" by being in town; that will be part of the game experience.

I also believe that having chat filters -- which I know we will have at some point -- will help. When you can filter chat to remove, say, all the emotes, you will see a lot more chat and a lot less dancing, and waving, and all the other fun things that people enjoy doing with their characters.

When we institute the full in-game trade system, I think that we'll all see less trade spamming. I don't know what is coming on that or how it will be handled, but the designers know that a system is needed and they're clever people -- they'll nail it.

Lastly, a game takes time to mature, and so does the community. My first real online game was Diablo. I went online and it scared me to death! Scrolling chat, people using pretty awful language, aggressive smack talking. My innocent eyes had never seen such a thing. I was, literally, in a panic to get out of the chat room and into the game. "Hurry up, hurry up!" I was thinking as I closed my eyes and jumped out of chat.

Well, I "stayed a while and listened" one day. (Sorry, wrong edition, but you'll appreciate a good insider reference. ) I found amongst all the chatter a few thoughtful individuals trying to carry on a conversation. I found a few quite interesting, and yes, it wasn't easy, but it got better. Within a few weeks, more nice folks appeared, and we got to such a number that we started our own in-game "discipline." It involved such things as "This is our room, please don't talk like that." We couldn't ban people, as I recall we couldn't mute people, but with time, the nasty folks just stopped coming around. Diablo Retail USA-1 was ours. I met one of my favourite people in the world in that channel, and we're friends to this day.

I fully anticipate that this will happen in Guild Wars. Groups of people will find that they naturally gravitate to like people, and that those of us (and I am one) who enjoy the social exchanges nearly as much as the game itself will find that we end up in, say, Ascalon City 3, or Lion's Arch 12, or places like that. It will take time, but we will have time, and with that, we'll find and be in the places we most want to be.

I rarely had problems with really annoying people (like those you would expect to see from playing Counter-Strike 1.6). I have hardly ever seen "1337 sp33k" and quick-spelling (as in "You is not spelled U!"). Usually I only see these people at the gladiators arena. Don't know why. But the usual is just a bunch of "GG" at the bottom of the screen even if they "pwned j00 n00b" or whatever. My biggest problem with people is just that they are really annoyingly quiet. I feel like I'm playing with Henchmen even if I'm obviously not. I expect the 1337-sp33king "kiddies" to increase after release. No monthly fees seems to draw them like a magnet. But as long as we are quick to make them shut up or conform to our standards of morality, then it will be okay.

Couldn't agree more on this point. 80% of my friends list in-game consists of people I've met in this forum. Some are people who responded to my questions, others are people I asked to find in-game (people who are mature in the forums tend to be mature in the game as well). Threads like this one are encouraging to me becuase they demonstrate that there are still rational, thinking people who game.

Time spent getting acquainted in the forums=less time being frustrated in-game with jerks.

Ciao,
CT

PS--Aria, I'm interested in this splendid guild of which you are a member. Are you folks recruiting???

I'm one of those who play games in order to BE social, so I'm always looking for ways to humanize and socialize an environment that by it's very nature tends to do just the opposite. My problem is, and always has been, the slower speed of my uptake on learning how to relate to others in the various artificial game settings I find myself in. Like GW, for instance; I'm not sure how to actually communicate effectively, using the in game chat features, taking directions from my group leader, and still be able to be participate in the battles or group movements without being a hinderance to our success. A LAN party can do it, but unless Teamspeak, RogerWilco, or Ventrilo is being used by all involved, how do we all stay on top of things? Typing communications is just so cumbersome, especially while playing the game. Hopefully, I'll get better with practice. I, too, hope that the pacing of the game will slow down a bit after the full release, so that the more social aspects of gaming together with other PEOPLE can manifest itself. The Guild Wars "community" could really be something great, if enough of us try hard to encourage that, and just "behave" ourselves.

the random 4v4 arena is a quick and dirty way to get your hands into PvP and to test builds. people just go in there for 'instant action' and generally don't bother with forming full blown strategies, since you're playing with strangers and don't know their builds. i usually call a target if there's an obvious one.. a single monk or a spellcaster among warriors.. but that's as far as i would go. in the games that i played, ppl usually start talking more after a winning streak, cheering each other on etc... which is fine by me... the arena isn't the best place for conversation after all..

i also tried the Denravi arena.. that one has more seasoned players so you get a bit more conversation going on.. also less silly names and moronic behaviour...

Dark Knightz? Did you ever play CoH?

More onto topic, the pick up groups i encountered were a total mix... including about 4 that the entire team lagged out and i was stuck on the mission map alone, about 2 levels lower then everything i was fighting(yeah i like to be quick about things and rush through its fun to me)

Well 3 of the times i just tele'd back to town but the 4th one i said screw it im goin in and i soloed the mission(took about 2 hours =/ i know its not rushing >.> but it was fun, and guild chat got a kick out of all the cursing from the normally "lone warrior") I never really solo'd just didnt do it with the guild since it always seemed i was either a tad too early or abit too late to team with them.

I had one great group that i literally spent like 24 hours with last beta(we took breaks and decided to meet back in so many hours) i took the whole weekend off from everything just so i could do stuff like that But all in all it was a great experience and i think it will get better in time... before it starts a steep decline, all games die people all we can hope for is that this one has a good run before its time is up.

FUBAR, I guess it's just something that develops as the game gets older. It will probably get better within the first few weeks when GW releases.
(I also played both AC's. I loved PvP in it.)

As far as when you call out to join a group...

Maybe consider there were only a few guilds in the betas and many people were in guilds or only playing with guild members kinda stuff. Hopefully that will be better when it releases.

Well I haven't played GW as of yet, but I can tell you that you can be quite sure there's gonna be a part of the players that's gonna be acting like kids ingame. The big solution is propably just ignoring or not bothering with them.

I have played a load of other online games before and there's always been people flaming/calling names/... It's going to be impossible to change all those people's thoughts or behaviour. The best we can do is creating a good atmosphere ingame and hope the dev team disencourages the use of bad mannered words.

I'm also a roleplayer/socializer combined with an achiever in games, and found that there's a load of nice people on these forums. So relax, I'm sure there's going to be loads of good people out there on April 28th

All you have to do is find a nice Guild, eveluate there members behviour and skillwise, join them and you'r good for a long time. I've myself experienced so many failed missions in quests escpecially Maggum warriors etc but it was still fun the way our team put up a good effort. Besdies we were all going for new builds on PvE and were mostly bunch of lvl 14's fighting lvl 16 and higher monsters. We learned a lot from those failing quests about our guild members, how they behave on certain situations, who is more tactical etc.

There are more reasons than just a lack of experience.
1) Players may play just for fun. They don't really care about winning. Wins are fine when they happen, but a lot of players are not willing to do anything to improve chances of winning.
PvP players may also play just for fun at that moment (after all, they're not in a clan group so it's time to relax).
2) They don't think that you have a right to give orders to them. So they just ignore you. Besides, non-organized clans suffer from the same problem.

Hey, How about if they have some sort of a poll when you want to join a guild! Like...

----
Do you like fighting other people, Killing monsters, or both?

How serious or mature are you? on a 1-10 level, And is this important to you?

Do you like to curse or use language that might upset others, and is this important to you?

Are you new or experienced with this game? and does this matter to you?

Do you want a guild with voice chat or do you simply want to type in chat, And does this matter to you?
----

Perhaps everyone could fill it out and it would show them a couple guilds that are within there range, and guild leaders could just fill out the description of there guild and check a little thing that says "Looking for members." Or perhaps it could just automaticly send that person a guild invitation from one of the guilds that has atleast one person on.

Edit: And perhaps for guilds that don't want to use foul language, You can send a log to the guild leader every time someone breaks the no foul language rule in the guild. Like mabye just the message that had the bad word will be under some tab only the leader can see on the guild tab.

Heh, good one. Wonder how many got it though. :P

That's ok, Nash. You and I can have a quiet smile on it, eh?