guild wars: is it really all skill?

The subject keeps coming up, over and over. There is more effort placed into finding the skills one wants for a particular build, rather than practicing how to use those skills in actual gameplay. Unless one has prior alpha or beta experience, then the vast majority of PvP builds presented and discussed are just theoretical in nature, as one doesn't get access to the majority of skills until having gone through a considerable amount of PvE first.

Of all the threads I've seen on these forums, one of the rarest discussions that I come across are PvP specific strategies and team based techniques on the different types of games themselves. It's mostly questions about PvE, farming for items, skill searching and building of characters. Hopefully this will change over time. But for now, PvP itself doesn't seem to get discussed very much.

That's what I mean by this discussion itself supporting the idea that too much emphasis is going toward finding and unlocking skills/items, and not enough on the actual application of those skills/items themselves. If this entire discussion was moot, then we'd all be discussing how to effectively play PvP, rather than debating on the merits and definitions of grinding.

Because the PVP player had those things handed to them at no cost while the PVM player put in effort to get them. Unless the PVP players are prevented from ever interacting with PVM players, or unless PVM characters get the same access as PVP chars during PVP matches, this would cause nothing but grief. The playing field has to be even, or it might as well not exist.

Truer words have rarely been said.

That's almost certainly because people who seriously PVP are bloody unlikely to give away their secrets.

I wouldn't call +$50 cash, several weeks worth of researching into builds and gameplay dynamics, the hours spent designing team based builds with other players and guild members, and then the hours spent practicing and refining those strategies both online and offline as "no cost."

A dedicated PvP player using a pre-designed template build who spends 4 to 10 hours a week ingame is not on an even playing field with a PvE player who spends 10 to 40 hours a week unlocking every skill and item. The latter player has the natural advantage of experience due to the increased play time, so to then give that same player access to custom builds and upgraded items on top of their natural advantage only makes it more difficult for the more casual player to get into it and enjoy the game.

I don't understand why making the PvP aspect more accessible and enjoyable is threatening to so many "experienced" players. One would think they'd actually enjoy having more of a challenge. Very strange, indeed.

All players spend the same amount of money on the game, making that hardly a valid point. As for time spent practicing for PVP, that also doesn't matter, since the PVM playershave to spend the same amount of time.

The reason its threatening is because people do not want to have to switch away from their PVM characters to PVP. Give PVM characters the same options as PVP characters when PVPing and only when PVPing, and there would be no problem.

So you're saying that, if a.net implemented an all-unlock feature for pvp chars, that if a pve character stepped into an arena they should be provided with a full kit and skills for just the arena.

Sounds good to me, anyone else think this is a good solution to the problem?

Laz

I don't think I've ever read anyone suggesting that PVE(M?) characters should be penalized in PvP. The whole point is to create a level playing field, where everyone in PvP has access to the same things, and then chooses the build they want to take ingame.

Anyway, round and round we go; where she stops, nobody knows...

Think I'll leave this one for the time being.

Just make PvP and PvE separate and unlock everything for PvP. I doubt PvE people would want to play against PvP characters that have everything unlocked for them. PvP characters who care about skill would only want to play against other PvP characters anyways, so there, everyone will be happy.

I always knew that MMO pvps cannot be real 'skill'. As in the case of GW, i think they have an excuse by saying the 'skill' they refer to is the ingame 'skill', like 'Power Shot, Backfire, Firestorm,etc'. Lol

Then again, i play games for fun, and to avoid a game because it 'doesnt require skill' defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in the first place. If a game is more fun because it requires skill, than its good cause it helps with the primary reason why i play games, but if a game is fun even though its skilless, then avoiding it would make me like the countless 'loser geeks' out there.

I agree. I'd expect the PvP'er to win big time. Or rather, a balanced team of such PvP'er would defeat a balanced team of such PvE'ers. Effective PvE combat strategies are build around the fact the the monsters are predictable, and are thus of little use in PvP. And the advantage of better access to skills and items are insignificant compared to the advantage of better strategies and tactics.

The outcome of a 1vs1 match would depend on who choose rock, scissor or paper, and would thus not be enlightening.

imo... to capture all skills you want, you need to grind alot which i dont want to do ;/

In all of my MMORPG playing this game takes the least amount of time by far.

You could easily have a good group of friends in a guild complete all the missions while getting the majority of the skills you need for PvP in under 48-72 hours per character if you know what your doing.

Two to three playing days per maxed (level and the best PvP based spells) character and people are still bitching.

I've got a level 20 El/Mo (has the best El and Mo spells already) that is amassing skill points (35 of em now) for El/Me El/N conversion. A level 18 Me/N that is finishing up Sanctum Cay at 46 hours played and another level 10 R/W.

The game is two weeks old and I am close to having two characters done and finished as far as getting them PvP readied.

The reason why there are people complaining is because during beta the game was toted as skill over time spent. If you want to compare this to something compare it to D2 meets pokemon but don't compare it to a mmorpg.

Totally agree! It took me about 60h to get to lvl 20 on my first character, and 40h on my second. Both times I did it either alone or in random groups. If you're doing things in a guild, you can go through that much faster, and still have lots of time for exploring. Provided the group you're in is skilled and tactical, you can finish the final missions in half a day and have access to all of the areas with important elite skills.

It is always lovely to read posts by people that think they will get their point across by trying to sound like they are more intelligent than everyone else... before you make comments about people using dictionaries, fix your own spelling and capitalization.

The update INCREASED drop rates of rares. "Increased drop rates for Uncommon and Rare items in Explorable Areas." http://www.guildwars.com/news/gameupdates.html

The game is not about skill, but strategy, and the two words are often interchanged when talking about gw.

Reducing the "grind" would be wrong, there is already so little time involved in getting lvl 20 chars with the appropriate skills. Also, "grind" has never, ever been used to describe a game like this - it is always farming repeatedly just to boost EXP. In this game, you never need to do that - do quests, then compete in Arenas. EXP and skills, no grind whatsoever.

If any changes were made to the game, I would like even more quests and areas - oh wait that is coming out in the next live update. GW rocks.

EDIT: Sorry if this came off as a little harsh, but I got a really condescending vibe from the first post, and that does not sit well with me. I just want to state my reasons for disagreeing and point out that I don't like the first post.

Areas? thier adding new areas next live update?

*looks at guildwars.com* I'll be darned. With all the neat new content you gotta wonder what there holding back for the first expansion

Kinda suprised to see this debate still raging, but then again ya gotta fight what you belive in. Beginning to wonder how a.net will deal with it.

Yet some people will not be happy untill they have the "unlock all X" back. (Something I belive the dev.s have said is not going to happen, don't quote me tho.)

Skills, or rahter, Elites:
Current---some solution---Remove Random from Bosses---some solution---Unlock All

Removing the random spawn function of bosses would help a lot I feel, while not removing the capturing component totally from the game.

On the other hand it would even more make "skill" = "reading boss lists on forums"

Drops, or rather, Major Runes:
Current---some solution---Increase Drops---some solution---Unlock Some, Unlock All

As for Item and Rune drops, I really don't see a good solution except upping drop rates and perhaps getting drops in PVP.

Perhaps like with skills making some bosses drop non-randomized items?
Would questing or hunting a boss become less grindy if you know you only have to finnish it once?

Would "beating the story-line = unlock all for these two professions" be acceptable?

How about trying to post some resonable solutions?

I've been following this debate for some time as my main char is level 16 and if I quit playing the others he will be level 20 soon and I will be looking for a good pvp guild to join because by that time I will probably lose interest in the pve portion of the game. It concerns me because I really don't relish the thought of doing the same quests over and over again with alternate characters to have all the skills, items and upgrades available to fully enjoy the pvp aspect of the game, much less hunting down obscure monsters and killing them over and over again to have access to all the elite skills. One of the reasons I bought this game was because of all the hype about skill vs. time spent as I work excessive hours and don't get to play as much as I'd like.
Everyone dismisses the "unlock all" button out of hand because it somehow "cheapens" someone else's experience. I can't see how this is the case. Everyone here paid for a copy of the game in the hopes of enjoying it. If someone enjoys using the CD as a coaster , by all means use it as a coaster. If someone else enjoys spending 1000 hours hunting down elite skills, then have at it. If someone else wants to push a button and watch the entire game play itself out then why not put it in the game? When you talk about forcing people into a set routine to do the things they want in the game your really saying limit someone else's enjoyment of the game (who paid the same price as you) because you feel "cheated". As long as everyone has the same options available to them no one can claim to be cheated. There have been several ideas put forward to allow those so inclined to skip the pve portion of the game and still have full access to the pvp portion. Guild Wars is a great game BECAUSE it offers enjoyment to many different types of gamer, any improvements that give MORE options just make it even better.

If PVP was meant to be skill based and not who can spend the most time unlock skills, then level the playing field. One standard character for each class, nothing can be added, nothing taken away. Or add this as a second "class" of competition, sort of a standard and unlimited class, standard template char for competition or a completely unlock char's for the unlimited class.

Exactly. To turn an old phrase, one person's grind is another person's gameplay.

You play another game since Guild Wars is obviously not for you.

How about this... if you hit the unlock all button then you only fight other players with the unlock all option and there is no global rank/fame/xp. Basically two sets of fame/rank - one for unlock anything arena battles and the other for PVE players and PvPer who don't hit the magic give all button.

My view is that ArenaNet did something pretty impressive when they allowed you to pull up a lv 20 character out of the box. I think the current situation is a pretty reasonable compromise, but that is just my opinion. I do think there are other options but none will please everyone IF you keep the "one world" basic premise.

I played in all the weekend beta events myself.

Sure there are some changes since Guild Wars went live and I am more than happy with them because I have experienced some horrible time sinks in other games (which prompty made me leave those games, Trials of Atlantis expansion / Scars of Velious expansion). Comparative to what is out there Guild Wars has the easiest leveling (instant travel, hencmen, every class can solo) with minimal time spent (48-72 hours to complete all missions with gaining a good amount of elite skills) when it comes to time spent building up your character.

Either your going to enjoy the game and the hoops (i.e. grind) you have to jump through to get what you want out of it or simply just don't play the game.

Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.

I happen to think that this game has minimized the grind exceptionally. Anyone that has played just about ANY of the big time MMOs will agree.

No-grind dose not = easy.

I just cant see how people can be complaining about grind in GW. This game takes SOOOO much more skill than others of the same type can claim.

*Sigh* I grow tired of constantly defending my point of view on this.

To me there is no grind in this game.

Thank you... BTW how do people imagine games without 'grind'? If there would be even less 'grind' then there's in GW then you would end up with 1 boss and 25 missions equal 25 bosses to kill in total, which would make the game about an hour worth of playing. Also, if they would still want to implant the various landscapes then you would be walking around 50 minutes and killing 1 minute and then walk around 50 minutes again to complete a mission. Furthermore, this is an extreme look on the situation and it's just an example so please don't counter this (pretending to be smart) by saying; They could make it 2 bosses a mission and you'll have 2 hours worth of playing omg...

BTW This would be considered 'grind' by some people who keep arguing about it; OMG 2 bosses a mission?! Why not just 1?! '-.-

[QUOTE=Manderlock]Grind is such a fickel word. What is grind to you may not be grind to someone else.
QUOTE]

another word that is being thrown around with gay abandon is *COMPETITIVE*

Anet meaning of *competitive* is that a 50 hour player has an honest CHANCE against a 500 hour person

not that good a chance admittedly but still a genuine chance

pick your favorite personal experience game (wow, ff. etc) and tell me if that 50 hour player has any chance against the 500 hour player

or if it will simply be an execution

[QUOTE=Loviatar]
*shivers as he thinks of WoW*

Ill get the chopping block ready me lord.

No, it is not all skill but a good chunk of it can be seen as skill/knowledge. If you are used to MMORPGs, strategical games or just plain a good team player then GW should be atleast somewhat easy. I do believe I have spent all together about 136 playing GW, that includes bringing Striker up to lvl 20, bringing 5 other characters up to about lvl 10, and the beta weekends that usually costed me many hours of sleep and I had gotten to lvl 15 on the beta as well. The whole point is, it all depends on what you are used to. I have been playing MMORPGs on and off for the past 5 or 6 years so I am somewhat used to this, and it is possibly the closest to fair PvP I have ever seen.

This is by far the most inappropriate use of the word "grind" ever. GW is a not a grind. If you think it is, feel free to play a MMORPG, then come back. You don't need all the skills to be effective. You don't need all the elite skills. The elite skills are incentive to actually play through the storyline at least once. They're a little extra bonus, and most of the time they aren't very helpful anyway. I've been PvPing, have almost all my skills unlocked, and I have most of the missions done. Oh, and BTW, I do believe if you do want to have everything handed to you on a diamond encrusted golden platter, just change your damn secondary class to whatever it is you want to play and then go to the final skill trainer. He should have all the abilities that aren't elite available. Don't have enough skill points? Well, either PVP the experience to get more, or actually do one or two quests to get them, of course, the quests might be fatal to you guys, so maybe you should just stick with the EXP grind...

Grind is doing drake runs 20 times in a row. Practice is something completely different from grind, dont confuse the two.

I think Grind is being confused with "level your character up." There is no grind on this game, sure you kill monsters over and over again, but not because you sit there and wait for them to respawn like in a REAL grind - but because you travel places and they attack you, or because you cannot find somebody to trade you a certain drop. Geeze, this game takes so very little time to level your character up, yet people are still complaining about it... I guess everybody now that the playing field ALREADY IS LEVEL that people are trying to find excuses as to why they cannot win in PVP.

I for one (as a general PvE-er) would be happy with at least one place that is a true level playing field.
If it was PvP teams w/unlock all ONLY for one area, normal PvE teams ONLY for another.

I wouldn't have a problem with PvE having all skills unlocked ONLY in the arena to balance with unlocked PvP-ers, as someone else mentioned...

Don't you see, the balance has already been struck.

They can create characters already level 20, but off default templates and underequipped. A fully equipped non level 20 could not only hold his own against it, but would probably beat it down - unless the lower level lacked strategy, and the 20 used it well.

Everything has already been thought of. The GWs people probably considered every single thing we are coming up with, and, in the end, determined that this was the best possible route to go... and I agree with them. The current system heavily rewards strategy, rewards doing the PvE, and allows PvP fans to not wait to play. The only thing the game does not do, as I mentioned before, is leave excuses for the losing team.

48 to 72 hours per character... two to three playing days...

While I recognize there are hardcore gamers to whom this seems entirely reasonable, as I was one myself many moons ago, to the rest of us who have to balance and manage our available time between work, family and normal day to day responsibilites, spending 72 hours ingame over three days is simply inconceivable and/or impossible.

The three biggest reasons many bought this game are: 1) no monthly fee; 2) multiplayer PvP game styles; and 3) that the level cap and focus on skill vs. time played would make the game accessible to those with limited time. This third one, however much thought and effort went toward accomplishing that, has been a genuine letdown. That's not bitching or whining... it's just a simple truth.

If one plays for 8 hours a week, which is a generous amount of time to give to any entertainment on a weekly basis, and considers that they either don't know what they're doing, or simply goes through much slower than the hardcore gamer who can do it all in three days, it could take that person three months or longer of dedicated PvE time to reach lvl 20 and unlock the skills for two professions with one character.

Three months... just to PvP with a single custom character competitively. The game has only been out for two weeks, so let's get some perspective on this. We're talking another ten weeks or longer just to begin. Ooookaaayy...

Regardless of what anyone says, that's a little surprising and disheartening to the one who reads the promo and reviews, buys the game and loads it up to PvP with their Ele/Mo or Mo/Wa build that they've designed in anticipation of online competition. Three months or longer to even begin playing PvP competitively, let alone learning the nuances and dynamics of the game styles themselves.

I'm going through PvE and enjoying it just fine, and at my own pace. My hope and excitement upon buying this game was to play Capture the Flag and King of the Hill with other good players, since those are multiplayer game styles I enjoy immensely, along with the ocassional PvE RP experience. And sometime around late August or September, I'll get to do that.

So you all can say whatever you want. If one can't hear what we're saying, can't respect our feelings nor recognize how this situation might be somewhat disappointing to many of us, then so be it. I doubt that the majority of those who are against opening PvP up would voluntarily wait another ten to twelve weeks before playing their characters, and just noodle around in PvE in the meantime.

A little community support, empathy and encouragement could go a long way toward helping the situation whether it changes or not, at least in making the rest of us feel welcomed and inspired to keep moving forward toward eventual PvP participation. Right now it kinda feels like the majority would be completely happy if all of us more casual players never participated in PvP at all, and just played something else. That's what it sounds like anyway.

Not to be a dick, but if you only play 8 hours a week you're still problably going to lose to someone who's been playing for 100 hours a week despite whether or not they have the superior runes and all their skills unlocked, I mean they've had more experience and more time to practice.

They could problably beat you with a stock character only playing that often, I mean lets say this:

A guy plays a stock PvP character very frequently and becomes very familiar with him over the hundreds of hours he's played in the two weeks the game has been out.

You created a stock character at the same time, but only played 8 hours a week.

...you're problably going to lose anyway man. Whether they spent the time farming or practicing PvP, they've still had more experience and problably better skill anyways. If you only play 8 hours a week you're not going to have a lot of time to master PvP or farm, in that case I'd just play AS a casual gamer. Hardcore PvPers are really the only ones needed to be concerned with winning in the hall of heroes or in some big competitions. Casual people (and I know many who play PvP only), well they just seem to like to...do just that, play casually. Win, lose, even match, screwed up match, whatever 'eh? They can get a bit tweaked from time to time, but so can people who farm.

That's not necessarily the case. I've participated in competitive CTF with many teams over the years (albeit mostly FPS), and am very familiar with the dynamics of multiplayer team games. Once the initial learning curve is taken care of, it's easy for one to jump in for 4 to 10 hours a week and be a strong asset to a team. I've been playing computer games regularly for so long now (over 25 years), none of this is very difficult and even GW comes as second nature.

Sorry, but I feel that this is a common stereotype regarding older gamers who have less time to devote to it. We do play to win, and we do it well.

You used a 1v1 example, and in such a case you may be right. Yet if in your example I could design my own build, it's quite possible that my general gaming experience would win out. But this is not about a 1v1 experience, or about my character being better than yours. It's about team strategy and finding the best role for ourselves within that strategy.

When I said 8 hours a week, that was actual ingame hours not considering offline discussions, strategies, forum researches, guild meetings, etc. There are many older players who are "casual" in that they can't invest unlimited hours a week into playing, but that doesn't mean their gameplay itself is casual or offhanded. These are often very good players that any team or guild would be fortunate to have on their side.

Edit: Fwiw, I bought the game on Apr. 29th, and based on the /age settings between my three characters, and adding in the initial tests that were deleted, have already logged well over 60 hours ingame (took some time off at work to do this). The hope was to get through the initial learning curve, then drop back to a more reasonable amount of time per week. None of my characters are even close to lvl 20 or to having unlocked nearly enough for PvP'ing with a custom build. Of that 60+ hours, most of it has been in PvE developing characters, and I've barely scratched the surface when it comes to real team based PvP... still a lot of fun, but not what I expected at all.

Anyway, this topic has diverged quite a bit. I was merely expressing one point of view regarding this issue. It would be more enjoyable to go in and design a custom character that suits a team, rather than just take one of the pre-designed templates and learn it. I do wish that good team based PvP was more readily accessible to those of us with time restictions.

But things are as they are until or if they change. I'm sure the GW people are learning and adapting through this whole process, and we very well may see some new features and additions specific to PvP as new chapters are released.

I just wanted to add this perspective to the discussion, if any GW devs were researching it here. Imho, if PvP did open all or more possibilities to players in a directly accessible manner, it would have a positive effect on team based play and strategies, with less focus on individual character building. Players would get to try more combinations out, and discover approaches they wouldn't otherwise. In the end, it would be more challenging and fun.

My two and a half cents.

I agree big grind. At least in traditional MMOs you got EXP for killing monstr and still did the quests. Here, the EXP sux for monster and the only way to lvl is to do the countless backbreaking quests. And when you do them you don;t get drops like in traditional MMOs. At least in like Diablo there was an economy and the game.I don;t know I like the game but I don;t like it. Put it this way it could be so much better in some areas.

And there is your problem, do missions not quests.


Only do quests that you need the reward for and youll be fine.