guild wars: is it really all skill? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

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Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 May 2005 at 10:27 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by riddler251

And when you do them you don;t get drops like in traditional MMOs. At least in like Diablo there was an economy and the game.I don;t know I like the game but I don;t like it. Put it this way it could be so much better in some areas.

Yes you do. This game has an economy. That's why Celestial Sigils are so expensive, as a Dragon Swords. It's Runes and Dyes, weapon upgrades, weapons. This game has a better economy than Diablo, because in this game, gold is actually worth something. Find me a player willing to trade his Enigma for some gold.

Jab

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

18 May 2005 at 17:04 - 85

I think the game has skill to a certain extent. having a group that has compliment skills to each other is going to be pretty powerful, but if an entire group of 6 or 8 is focusing directly on you for whatever reason, then it doesn't matter if your the greatest player in the game, your about to die. I think skill plays a bigger role in pve in right now since the enemy groups are designed to be hard and have powerful skills. Pvp can still be considered to somewhat be a click fest.

sama

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

EST

K A R M A

18 May 2005 at 20:26 - 86

it would seem that people have different opinions as to what they consider is grind. many of those opinions are based on experiences from other similiar games from WoW to Unreal Tournament. well, i say, perhaps we should look at the level of "grind" from one of the core philosophies of the game, skill > time spent, and let us not be biased by our past experiences.

as an avid pvp'er, that idea of skill > time was the revolutionary feature of this game, not the no monthly fee. granted, every trade, every profession, every game takes time to master and perfect, but i was under the impression that in guild wars, my time would of been spent becoming more proficient at pvp, instead of spending my time leveling up multiple characters, doing fedex quests, portaling in and out of zones 25 times trying to spawn bosses, and completing obnoxiously long and buggy missions over and over again. That's the reason why the "grind" is constantly being compared to other MMOs -- it's within range of comparison. To that end, Guild Wars has failed to be revolutionary.

My guild, K A R M A, is very a very active pvp guild. We have 20+ members that spend 6+ hours a day on this game. 3/4 of our time is spent doing the same missions over and over and farming runes. We have gotten so good at doing missions that we rarely fail them anymore. However, that's not really an accomplishment to us. In fact, it saddens me that we can't work on our pvp because all of our members are still trying to unlock skills. Ideally, we would like to spend our time testing out builds (which requires the unlocking of many skills), practicing our tactics and strategies, working on our coordination, scrimmaging our sister guild, and earning valuable pvp-specific experience. Again, Guild Wars has fallen short of their goals for pvp'ers.

I'm not trying to bash Anet in this post, this is merely a critique. The only reason why I went into detail about my guild is to provide perspective as the main source of contention among the pve and pvp crowd is a lack of understanding of each other's concerns. Many of the changes proposed to speed up development of characters have no effect on pve players. In fact, having all the skills actually encourages creativity of builds and diversity of tactics in pvp -- a wonderfully great thing for the longevity of Guild Wars.

Mr. Alex Weekes has already commented on this issue and acknowledge the concerns us pvp'ers have. Hopefully a solution will come soon.

Ordas

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

18 May 2005 at 21:46 - 87

I've read a couple pages of this thread and I'm sorry if I'm repeating something already said later...

But why do PvP'ers think they are entitled every last thing? You can reach level 20 in a week or so easily if you don't mess around too much. Then you can grab all the skills you want. The only skills you can't buy are the Elites. But think of Elites like rare items. You are not entitled to every item in the game, and so you are not entitled to every skill in the game.

Rare items are rare for a reason, so that whoever gets one feels that it is very valuable... rather than "just another item". They are not REQUIRED to play. Same with Elites. Are you really going to miss that 1 skill in your skillbar? Sure it might be a good skill, but you can replace it with another skill you have and still be competative.

Like someone else mentioned, say PvP was given everything easily, then PvE'ers would need something to make their time playing in the PvE world translate even a little bit into the PvP Arenas. And maybe that's what Anet did with the Elites. Much like with rare weapons, elites are hard to get, and so when you have it, you feel a sense of accomplishment.

Basically, set your expectation for a maxed character at high powered weapons and all the non-elite skills. And for every rare item/rune/elite skill that you get after that, think of it as a BONUS, not an REQUIREMENT to PvP.

Think about racing cars. People race all sorts of cars, on all sorts of levels with different setups inside and out of their car. They don't all get the most expensive and most powerful car automatically. But they still race! why? because its fun to see if you have enough skill to beat the other guy, whether he had put an extra $5k into his engine or not.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 May 2005 at 22:00 - 88

Quote:

But why do PvP'ers think they are entitled every last thing? You can reach level 20 in a week or so easily if you don't mess around too much. Then you can grab all the skills you want. The only skills you can't buy are the Elites. But think of Elites like rare items. You are not entitled to every item in the game, and so you are not entitled to every skill in the game.

That right there - entitled - is where your views differ fundamentally from a pvper. To you there is some inherent accomplishment from getting a rare skill or item or rune. To a pvper or a pvp guild, its just another hoop to jump through before you can actually get to the good parts of the game.

I personally have problems understanding this concept. Do i feel 'entitled' to having a full chessboard? To having a full tech tree in an RTS? More broadly - to have game options available to me from the start?

Limiting elites to SoC is at best a balancing function for pve, and has no real role in pvp battles. Its similar to giving progressively better armors as you progress through the storyline. These things have meaning and value from the perspective of the pve game because your character progresses from level 1 through 20, picks up skills along the way and faces different challenges throughout their 'life'. PvP doesn't have this particular form of variety nor does it require it. You will be facing challenges in pvp that cosist of characters that have a full rune set for their armor, a full skillbar selection so they can tailor their builds to their team easily, equal numbers and equal or greater weaponry - and the most important piece of all, they have brains. These are fundamentally different challenges than in pve and progressive increases in skill no longer matter because there isn't progression in the challenge. There are no divisions in pvp - you have your newbie arenas and after that you're thrown right up against tier 1 players even if you're tier 4.

Adding a character power disparity through runes and skills merely exacerbates the issue and doesn't have to.

Laz

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

18 May 2005 at 22:33 - 89

if possible i would like Blackace and several other hardcore pvp to seriously answer this for me if they would

if you eliminated the elites and the superior runes from competition so they were not a farming factor would that be an acceptable compromise by making a level field much easier and quicker to obtain?

that way neither side could use them or have the advantage of them and thereby shutting down the elite arms race

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

18 May 2005 at 22:42 - 90

That's a good idea, just make it so that runes and what not aren't allowed in PvP...but that would get in the way of elite skills that you'd need to go get.

I like the idea of having different arenas, kinda like you have arena, tournament, etc. You could have like an arena where runes are allowed, and one where they aren't, etc. Then PvPers who didn't want to go out and farm could still play PvE characters, the PvE characters would just not have their runes with them, and while this may be a bit of a bummer to the PvE players who want to use their runes, they can go into the arena that allows them.

It's like, when I start up a PvP character I get to choose between entering arena, trounament, or GvG I think the last one is or whatever. There could just be an option between Arena-Runes, Arena-No Runes, same with tournament, etc.

Then, if PvPers didn't want to have to face people who've done the farming, they could just not face them by entering the other arena. If a PvPer wanted more of a challenge they could enter the arena that allows the specially obtained items through PvE.

What do you guys think? I personally would like this idea a lot. That way, it isn't seperating PvP and PvE characters period, it's allowing them to choose what LEVEL of playing field they want to go on.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 May 2005 at 22:42 - 91

So you're saying what, make elites a pve only exclusive? Assuming guild wars has been balanced with elites in mind, this seems like it'll cause more problems than it will solve. You're removing 15 skills per class - about 20% of their total. That is non-trivial loss and is compounded by the fact that you're taking many of their more unique abilities away from each class. Arguing that elites should be balanced correctly to begin with and killing the armsrace before it begins is really a seperate discussion, because that deals with skill balance, not acquisition balance.

Runes i have no problem with ditching, they're essentially bonus levels to your char that don't change your '20' to '23' or whatever.

Laz

Mariena Feladon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Netherlands

Silhouette Stars [sil]

Mo/N

18 May 2005 at 22:49 - 92

I only play PvE, as I don't like PvP at all. Why? I guess I'm not that competitive, and it saves me from the thing called 'grinding'.

Funny, I may be just lucky, but I don't seem to have any trouble finding the right Elite skills and items. I found 4 elites just yesterday and those bosses were simply on my path while I was heading for a new area. Lucky, I guess.

Still, as a non-pvp'er, I see the problem the PVP'ers have. They don't want to grind (that much) in order to be competitive. It may have already been suggested, but my suggestion is...

Why can't the PVP'ers have their skills already, which are not available in their PvE characters (without unlocking them)? This will allow PvP to have all the skills they want, yet they don't have them in PvE as you still won't be able to buy them at vendors. Grind in PvE (if you really care), no grind in PvP. In my opinion, it's really that simple.

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

18 May 2005 at 22:52 - 93

It's because then in the arenas you'll be pitting PvE players against PvP players, the PvP players will have all their skills without having to go through what the PvE players do, so in matches you'll have super PvP characters with all their stuff for free facing PvE players still trying to get what they need to match the now overpowered PvP players.

Mariena Feladon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Netherlands

Silhouette Stars [sil]

Mo/N

18 May 2005 at 23:04 - 94

I thought the PvE PVP and the PvP PVP (that's confusing) were seperated from each other? I thought that was the initial plan of making a PvE character and a PvP character?

Hmmmz.. I guess it's more complicated than I thought it would be. I best keep quiet.

Eternal [ZEN]

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2005

K A R M A

18 May 2005 at 23:35 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

It's because then in the arenas you'll be pitting PvE players against PvP players, the PvP players will have all their skills without having to go through what the PvE players do, so in matches you'll have super PvP characters with all their stuff for free facing PvE players still trying to get what they need to match the now overpowered PvP players.

Huh? What stops a PvE enjoying player from making a PvP character to do some PvP with? And if you enjoy PvE then by all means, go grind the skills you want. The whole point here is that somepeople would rather not do any PvE and jump straight into PvP.

Eternal [ZEN]

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2005

K A R M A

18 May 2005 at 23:38 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariena Feladon

... snip ...

Why can't the PVP'ers have their skills already, which are not available in their PvE characters (without unlocking them)? This will allow PvP to have all the skills they want, yet they don't have them in PvE as you still won't be able to buy them at vendors. Grind in PvE (if you really care), no grind in PvP. In my opinion, it's really that simple.

Thank you for being about the only PvE'er out of 100s that gets it.

asdar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

18 May 2005 at 23:40 - 97

At the start of this thread I agreed with the PvE'rs. I'm one of those but I've been convinced by the PvP'rs.

The great thing about this game is that it's of such good quality PvP that they don't NEED to stretch out the game to keep people playing.

That's great for all of us, so why don't they just have an ultimate PvP. I'm a PvE'r and I'd keep one slot open for a PvP guy. I wouldn't WANT to have an unfair advantage over someone in the ultimate battle PvP. I want to beat them through skill and execution.

PvP wouldn't get an unfair advantage because we PvE'rs can just keep one slot for PvP if we want. I'm happy, I get to PvE and PvP and all that, and they're happy PvP'ing their brains out.

Buoyancy

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

19 May 2005 at 02:18 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eternal [ZEN]

Huh? What stops a PvE enjoying player from making a PvP character to do some PvP with?

Their character's name is already taken, it's not the same character that they are attached too, etc. There are many reasons such as these that lead to resentment.

Akshara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

19 May 2005 at 05:02 - 100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

Their character's name is already taken, it's not the same character that they are attached too, etc. There are many reasons such as these that lead to resentment.

PvE'r walks into an arena and up pops the same selection of skills and items available to every PvP'r. They have the choice to stick with what they have, swap them out for other choices, or create a blend of both. If below level 20, that character is temporarily boosted up to the same level as everyone else, with attribute points to distribute amongst their skills. The only limitation is that they can't switch professions without creating a new character, just like PvP'rs.

Afterwards, PvE'r walks out of the arena exactly as they walked in, only taking with them what they came in with, and being reset to the same attributes they came in with.

Not really that complicated at all... Arenanet would need to take a snapshot of the PvE character upon entering a PvP staging area, but that's no different than when we log in.

Shadow_Avenger

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Stolen Dreams

R/Me

19 May 2005 at 06:42 - 101

Hmm, not really complicated. It actually would mean creating a extra dummy acount, so each player would have 5 actual PC accounts, the 5th would be hidden and a temp accout. Basically you would have to duplicate the char as they walked in to the arena areas and replace their chrs with the duplicates.
Otherwise you would be asking for a whole world of pain with bugs etc.

Crito

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2005

down the street and take a left

aG

Me/

19 May 2005 at 13:59 - 102

Armor? Weapons? What if you wanted druids armor, but you dont have it on, where will your old stuff go? Really I think this is a kind of silly proposal because you can already do it to some extent. Just grb a PvP char and customize it with your skills. In the end nothing will change because the ones who want to be the best will work a little for it. Also what feeling accomplishment do you get when you reach 20 if you can be a 20 in every arena. Im a slow player so im not yet pvp worthy, but last night i could make a mock up of my guy and play w my guild. The mock up isnt as good as the reall guy will be but he;s a good start and i cant wait to get my runs weapon, ect. Enough from me.

CM

Griminald

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2005

New Jersey, USA

R/N

19 May 2005 at 14:17 - 103

I'd like to be one of the first to offer a hypothetical compromise.

I'm a person who likes both PvE and PvP, but after ascending with my Ranger, I have very little interest in running the PvE gauntlet all over again to have a different main at my disposal.

My ideal situation is that all skills for PvP characters would be unlocked -- after you Ascended on one PvE character. This would serve as a form of training for would-be PvPers who need to get used to the game's mechanics. And let's face it, grinding the same place over and over and over after that to unlock everything is just silly (although ArenaNet needs to retain subscribers between expansions, and in the eyes of a company, what better way to do that than to force you to grind?)

I'm trying to do just that as a Monk/Ele and it's already getting old to me.

Cs Coldize

Guild Wars Guru

Join Date: May 2005

Georgia

BEER

E/Mo

19 May 2005 at 15:25 - 104

I stopped reading at the counterstrike comment. That's wrong, I oughta know. What do you think the Cs means in my name lol. Well anyway, go on, cs is uber leet and is best fps ever. Im playing guildwars until I beat it, then going back to Cs, but ill still visit you all

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

19 May 2005 at 17:46 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griminald

I'd like to be one of the first to offer a hypothetical compromise.

(although ArenaNet needs to retain subscribers between expansions, and in the eyes of a company, what better way to do that than to force you to grind?)

.

completely wrong in every respect on this

1. they are not subscribers as they pay no monthly fee

2. every person who plays and then does something else til the next chapter comes out and grabs it is a plus to the company as there is less overhead expence while keeping the same revenue flow from new content sales

they provide prebuilts for casual gamers and the only ones grinding are the powergamers who aspire to the very top level of competition

Roken

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Jacksonville, Florida (US)

Corpse Ecstacy[Crps]

N/R

19 May 2005 at 18:21 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickeyC

an editorial by Mickey C.

guild wars: is it really all skill?

you may recall opening the flap of the guild wars box and reading the sentence “You’ll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.” you may also recall feeling ecstatic about finally getting into a mmo-style game that doesn’t require you to spend countless hours fighting meaningless monsters all by yourself and being bored to tears while you search for one rare item. some of you still feel that guild wars has lived up to its promise. however, there are countless others who disagree.

at approximately 3:30pm, est, on monday afternoon, i logged onto gw and toured all of tyria asking everyone this very question: “all in favor of reducing the grind, say ‘yea!’ all opposed, say ‘nay!’” while most players felt no need to respond, i did get a clear picture of the feelings of the majority within about 5 minutes. the “nay” vote was a whopping 5 people, while the “yea” vote was put to shame at only 22. of course, there are several intelligent people who stand up for the game the way it is and claim the grind, if there is such a thing, isn’t all that bad. around the time i conducted my little poll, i interviewed the leader of the team that had just won in the hoh, Marquis De J. he had this to say: “it’s a lot more based on skill then other rpgs, and beside, even fps need some skills… i mean… even fps need some grind.” well said, marquis. why, i remember wasting several months of my life trying to find the right gun in counterstrike while attempting to avoid awps people were able to use within 5 minutes of gameplay.

some of you may at this point be asking yourselves “what is this raving lunatic talking about? there is no grind.” while i do agree that the grind involved in gw is rather small in comparison to other games, such as swg, daoc, and lineage 2, there is still an ominous grind that is inescapably present. (those of you nay-sayers who don’t know what big words like “ominous” mean can find a dictionary and look them up.) yes, you can enjoy the game by playing through the pve missions a time or two and be done with it all in a week. yes, you can attempt to play some pvp without looking for runes or skills and keep yourself entertained for another few days. but, for most gamers, the entertainment value of the game is related to both sides being on a level playing field as well as being capable of winning. it is painfully obvious (“painful” means “it hurts”) that it is virtually impossible to win a pvp match against teams that have had the chance to grind if your team hasn’t. it also clearly does not put the two sides on a level playing field.
in addition, you may protest by saying that it takes little time to unlock most of the skills you would need for one or two different pvp characters. however, some of the more serious players like variety, which involves playing different professions. yes, you can switch your secondary profession once you ascend, but if you’re going for the large variety most hardcore pvpers are going for, you won’t have the skill points to buy the skills for your new secondary. yes, you can get those skill points by leveling past 20, but that, again, requires grind time.

the bugs inside the game the devs are failing to do anything about just make the grind that much more excruciating. it took me three days to unlock one skill i needed for a spiking ele build because every time i went into the zone and died, my henchmen would respawn underground. then, when i died again due to a lack of healing or tanking from the missing henchmen, i couldn’t respawn because i had henchies still living far away from anything threatening deep beneath the surface of the ground. upon complaining about this grind to my guild leader, sama, he simply responded with “what do you expect? it’s grind wars.” further into the conversation, he said “a lot of people claim you can do well in this game without unlocking stuff if you have the skills. but, if you go up against a team that has all the runes unlocked, you’re at a huge disadvantage.” and how can you argue with that? but, in order to get those runes, rare items, and elite skills, you have to spend months on tedious pve. so, i ask you, is it really a skill based game?

my british friend, Eternal, says it is. when i asked him this question, he told me, “it is skill based. whoever grinds the best wins.” as we sulked to one another a while longer, he reiterated his feelings: “i believe the pve-ers are happy the way things are, so i don’t see why the devs can’t just leave the pve intact exactly the way it is and allow the pvpers to unlock what they need more freely.”

while i can’t argue that there is some need for a grind and that the “unlock all skills” button from the betas may be a little ludicrous, i do believe firmly that something must be done to reduce the grind from its current state; especially since the reduction of rare drops they implemented last patch. it now takes a solid three hours to get a single rare item, which is absolutely absurd.

i do feel a bit on the dumb side for posting this on the public forums, because i know it will get flamed to death, but keep in mind that i’m not arguing that anything be changed to impair the pve aspect of the game. i just want my pvp skills and my runes to come a little easier. is that really so much to ask?

-Mickey C.
K A R M A [ZEN]

I stopped reading your post halfway through, about the same time I realized your post was nothing but pointless rambling and poor thought on your part.

First off, what is your definition of a grind? I can easily come up with 3 or 4, such as grinding for XP, attribute points, money, rares, and etc., but what is the game without a grind? Fun? Easy? Sure. But the grinding you're talking about is experience. More time input into your character means that your character is going to be more diverse than the other player's character, who did not put more time into his character.

Of course changing your character proffession at 20 is going to require grind time. Do you think they're going to just hand over all the skills up to 20 for you? That way, to unlock stuff in the game, you just get to 20 and change your profession 5 times, and BINGO! You have unlocked all the skills for PVP.

Ho...ly... crap. Are you an idiot? Of course people with more skills are shove your face into the dirt. If you do not take the time, yes I said the word you're dreading, time to unlock the skills, items, and runes, instead of sit here and complain your little moronic head off, then your character is going to flat out suck. Arenanet will not just hand you extremly rare items other people have taken their time out to farm just becuase you want the game to be fair. It's not Anet's fualt you have a life. This MMO is the best MMORPG to date. Its balanced, thought of ways to make the playing less agonizing, and the PvP is awesome.

To sum up my whole post, don't complain becuase someone owned you after they poured more hours into their character than you did.

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

19 May 2005 at 21:35 - 107

Roken, not to blow your post up in your face or anything, but the entire argument of this thread is that well...Right on the box, you've got the quote "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate."

It then goes on to state that this is true for both PvE and the "highest levels of tournament play".

The argument is basically that the people got lied to in this matter. Seeing as how a stock PvP character, is MORE LIKELY to lose to someone who farmed the runes and pulled all their elite skills. (Even though this isn't always the case, some PvPers take offense that in order to beat people with both skill and runes, that they'll need to go "grind" for them as well. Even though the grind in this game is about 1,000 times less as in...any other MMORPG, if you can call it that, it's still an issue.)

Now that I've reviewed the situation several times, I've decided that yeah, I don't care if you give the PvPers everything, in fact I might enjoy it as well if I ever get bored of PvE and want to try the different classes at high-level PvP without going out to get everything.

I say give the PvPers everything, the PvE people get the benefit of playing through the PvE portion of the game, having funny instances with henchmen, knowing the storyline, and all that jazz. Being a primarily PvE player myself, I know that I do get fun out of just playing the PvE for what it is, not necessarily because I'll be able to get all this badass equipment later on.

Give the PvPers what they want, if the PvE players want it then too, they can go and use their fourth character slot and quickly create a PvP character I guess. If it's really a HUGE deal that you need to use your PvE character, we could just make it so that whenever you enter the arenas, you get to set-up your PvE character while you're in there, as a PvP character.

Cheers.

Virtuoso

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

19 May 2005 at 21:53 - 108

These so called "PvPers" who can't play the game for 30 hours and get all the skills and items they need aren't PvPers at all. They came expecting a game like Counter-Strike, and found out the game was nothing like Counter-Strike. In Counter-Strike, do you call players PvPers? No, you don't. I have been a hardcore PvPer since UO first came out (late 97 I believe) and in my opinion, if you can't cough up 30 hours to "grind" your PvP character out then perhaps its time for you to find a new game to play.

-Virt

Akshara

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

19 May 2005 at 22:25 - 109

Quote:

they provide prebuilts for casual gamers and the only ones grinding are the powergamers who aspire to the very top level of competition

I just can't agree with this Loviathar. I've no intention of aspiring to the top level of competitive play, but none of the characters which my preferred playing style lean toward are available as pre-mades - I have three PvE characters, and none of them are or have been offered.

Mo/Wa - healing prayers w/ tactics
Ele/Mo - fire magic w/ healing prayers
Mes/Ele - domination/inspiration magic w/ air magic

Right now, the premade healers and the mesmer are pretty lame, and don't really allow one to use the characters to their best extent. At least that's been my experience so far. The premades are a lot more limiting than may appear at first glance, and are designed more for individual players to jump into the random fray, rather than being designed to fit within a team.

Casual does not necessarily refer to the players approach or desire to play well. It refers to the total time they can commit in the longterm. Just because one has limited time to give doesn't mean they'll play whatever and don't care one way or the other.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

19 May 2005 at 22:58 - 110

one small point
not to argue but to offer some hope

they are still adding and changing the mix of prebuilds and who knows that the next set will have something to your taste

it just came out and i personally will give them time to see what happens

i am talking weeks and months not days

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

20 May 2005 at 06:09 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

These so called "PvPers" who can't play the game for 30 hours and get all the skills and items they need aren't PvPers at all. They came expecting a game like Counter-Strike, and found out the game was nothing like Counter-Strike. In Counter-Strike, do you call players PvPers? No, you don't. I have been a hardcore PvPer since UO first came out (late 97 I believe) and in my opinion, if you can't cough up 30 hours to "grind" your PvP character out then perhaps its time for you to find a new game to play.

-Virt

I agree with you on your points that people came expecting a game like CS, everything open lets go kill peoples. But that isn't ALL the people who play PvP, many of them are people who've played MMORPGs in the past, and really enjoyed the PvP portion but didn't so much like the grind. Some people just really like RPG PvP, but they've not the time available in their daily lives to spend making a character. And 30 hours...isn't going to get you everything you'll need to get the best gear/runes/skills/etc. Unless you've beaten the game a time or two before and know where everything is at. Which is hardly the case with most people.

Despite the fact that people should have EXPECTED a relatively small bit of grind to prepare for PvP, I feel that we can still bend a little bit to give them what they want. After all, it's not like giving them all the available things in the game to create and use on PvP characters will affect the PvE characters because the PvE players can create a PvP character of their own to use against them while still having their PvE characters. So it won't be hurting the PvE players in any real sense, it will just make more people happy with Guild Wars.

At least that's the way I see it.

Luphrecio

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

20 May 2005 at 06:30 - 112

whoa hold the phones stop the presses. . .the name o fthe game is called Guild wars. . .AAAH! wow what a concept. . . .yo folks, you're not going to get much fun out of this game if you are just trying to go solo or with like 3 or 4 friends, what you need is a guild. . .the game was desined for guilds, hence the name "guild wars" 1) there is no grind, grind is something you really dont want to do. . .there are thigns i dont want to do in this game. . .so i dont do them. . . .yes there is skill involved. . .and you need to spend time to do that, but you really dont need to spend too much time learning how to do this game. . .you just need a brain, and the ability to get along with others. .that's really it, do that, keep our mouth shut, dont piss people off (in game) test out a few guilds and bam you should be ok, but if you're not the kind of person to go and find people (or expect that to be really really easy) then stop playing this game now, return the box and cd or give it to someone who wants the game, this game obviously isnt for you

YOU DOnT need elite skills! sure they are nice (actaull most of them suck anyway i just use my regular skills and i am fine)but you wil still get pwned if you have a craptacular team, and most team are. . .craptacular, guild or pugs, it is very rare to find a really good guild that can work together in quests missions pvp while having fun etc. . .the guilds that can do that (few and far between) are the ones that will be on top. And the ones who run around like chickens with their heads cut off will be the ones getting pwned by the good guilds out there who know what teamwork is. . . this game was designed like that, and if you dont like it, go play a single player game, you're not going to amount to the things you want to be here without the help of others. . . sorry but just bein honest, If you cant find people, then you wont have fun here

Teamwork/Metting good people and guild=FUN and maybe pwning in guild wars

SOT

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

East Texas

20 May 2005 at 06:48 - 113

Do you level up in this game? Then you are grinding

Luphrecio

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

20 May 2005 at 06:58 - 114

Really? I thought I was PLAYING A VIDEO GAME. . .anyway you guys bitch and whine all you want, I said my piece, I'm going to bed, got work tommorow

Ah CRAP! I fed the troll. . . . .

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

20 May 2005 at 08:09 - 115

Luphrecio...did you read anything in this topic? I'm sorry I had to ask that, but based on your responses...I don't really see how you...provided any counter-points...at all, to any of the main ideas in this thread. It was basically just "Yeah you don't need that stuff quit bitching there's no grind if you have no friends you won't have fun". And that was about it.

Firstly, I am NOT in a guild in the game. The name Guild Wars is NOT there because the point is to be in a guild, the name Guild Wars comes from the "Guild Wars" that took place between the three human kingdoms before the Charr invasion and what not, in the storyline. Sure there are guilds involved, but you do not need a guild to pass the game or anything.

I personally have not joined a guild because I do not enjoy clans and/or "guilds" that are created for the purpose of competition, its like clans in FPS games to me. I don't give a damn about scrimmages or tournaments, I just want to play the damn game and have fun with good people that I know. So far, I've yet to find just a laid back group of good people who just want to have fun, talk on teamspeak/ventrilo and what not. People are all about "guild websites", and PvP and that sort of thing. I want my guild to be a group of good friends, not the sort of thing where it's like "Anyone want to be in our guild?! Just pm me and let me know if you want to join Warriors of Chaos!" (random name or something). I'm not into recruiting/guild battles, or any of that sort of thing. So don't bring guilds into this as they've not been part of the main ideas as a whole, and you CAN have just as much fun as other people if you are not in a guild, or always with people.

The main debate in this thread was whether or not giving the PvP characters everything would benefit us as a whole. Not...how much people like to bitch about not having friends or...whatever it is you were going on about mate.

There's a little grind, not like in other games by any stretch, but a little. PvPers just want to play PvP, and not have to raise a character spending hours of their time (whether it be 3 or 100) preparing a character. I just say...give it to 'em, it won't affect us PvEers really. Cheers people.

Zetor

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Bp, Hungary

Jademoon

E/

20 May 2005 at 08:27 - 116

I can see both sides of this debate. On one hand, I like PvE a lot (a lot of "PvPers" are immature smack-talking idjits in any game, monster bashing with friends is a lot more relaxing), on the other hand, GW had the chance to have a unique no-grind PvP system among all MMOGs. The prebuilts and the ability to mix them up is "ok", but if you haven't unlocked a superior vigor rune (or a bow grip of fortitude... or whatever) you'll be at a massive disadvantage.
I currently play WoW (and have been playing online games since 1995 - MUDs, UO, AO, SWG, etc), where the PvP is almost entirely decided by the TIME you poured into your character, GW was supposed to be a nice change of pace. Why change the system to what it is now? I (as a primarily PvE player) enjoy finding new and interesting items / skills as much as anyone, but PvP battles shouldn't be decided by who got lucky in PvE.

And yeah, just equalizing the items / skills wouldn't make PvP "fair". There are guilds that bully and overpower smaller guilds at will, guilds that practice 80 hours a week, guilds that know all the dirty tricks / exploits (not necessarily hacks... things like "how to use lag to your advantage", the gold stacking dealio, etc), there may even be collusion (which is hard to monitor with no GMs - no monthly fees). It happened in every competitive game, it'll happen again, "hardcore" PvPers have more than their share of bad apples.
It's why I probably will never play in anything beyond level 20 random arenas and will get called a "noob" all the time /shrug.

I understand I'm probably just reiterating points made a few hundred times on this thread, but I'm bored at work!

wasting your time with 10-minute posts at a time,

-- Z.