Was someone trying to scam me?

Or maybe they should have stopped whining about it, kept him on the team and gone for another round to win another one.

The question is if one of them had gotten the drop would they have rerolled to give the two addon players a chance for it. I believe their actions prove they would not have done that. The lesson here is if your guild is going in for the sig mainly a little message before entering the tombs is a small price to pay. From his post its sounds like if they had maintained a little decorum and asked politely he would have probably given to them outright anyway.

I've read your post and I think that yes they were trying to scam you. It's not really nice, and I suspect that if they had asked you nicely and offered a trade that they could have gotten it for a lot less than Sigils are currently trading for.
I've read this whole thread and a lot of people are discussing the morality of the situation. Morally the 6 guildmates didn't have a leg to stand on. They have no claim on anything that drops for you, just as you have no claim on anything that drops for them.
Some people have stated that you should have give them the sigil because you didn't need it. On re-reading your post it is clear that you didn't state either way whether you were in a guild (that perhaps could use the sigil) or not. Your "need" for the sigil is irrelevent to whether or not they were trying to scam you. Just not really an issue here.
Your question was whether rolling for the sigil is an accepted practice or scam. I vote "SCAM"

Moral relativism is a useless philosophy and has no value in a discussion such as this. Let's call it "preference" with the understanding that nobody's preference is superior.

If I was in this situation and they had asked if we could roll for it (they collectively get six chances at my sigil while I only get one? As if!), I would have laughed at them and told them to take a hike. If, on the other hand, they had simply asked for it without pretense or offered me a fair trade then I would have been more willing to listen. That is my preference, and I stand by it.

I agree!

And how much do you want to bet there would have been no talk of dice-rolling if the sigil had dropped with their name on it?

Ahhh but nonetheless your "preference" as you so well put it, are just a result of your moral justificiations. Just so you don't feel bad there isn't one decision you make that doesn't involve morals. It's a broad term thats why I used it, not a philosophy as you seem to think. Maybe your reffering to Kantism or Utilitarianism? Either which I'd be more than obliged so serve you with. It's an issue of morals. Period.

Never said my morals we're better than yours, but they are in "my" perspective. Someone said something about them mentioning the sigil drop beforehand. They might have. He may have not noticed it in chat, or he's just not mentioning it, can't take one persons story without vindicative proof. Or they may never have. Doesn't matter, told you what "I" would do based on my moral system.... the rest of you I see as pathetic and "low" that's just how "my" personal view of you is. Not saying it's justified, just how I judged you by your statements

Doing so at this point I think would only promote that their behavior was acceptable. In gaming, as in life, you are not rewarded for acting like a complete fool, and that's exactly how they were acting last night.

My main intent for creating this thread was to make sure there there wasn't some sort of unwritten protocol for this kind of thing that I was unaware of. As you can tell, I don't exactly win sigils often, despite the ridiculus amount of time I sometimes spend in the tombs.

Once again, had the situation been approached differently by the guild, then I would be much more willing to make some sort of deal, or just hand the thing over altogether. Unfortunately, since that wasn't the case, I can think of a handful of better things to do with it.

EDIT: I should also mention that they told me they already had a hall, and I guess were just looking to sell the thing.

As I said, do what you like with it. Wether you keep it or not is not the case, neither way is wrong. It is a matter of morals, people have different morals, it is neither good or bad.

All this talk of morality is confusing. Do all you "moral" people honestly believe that if one of the guild members had gotten the sigil they would have called for a roll?

I would ask how you can judge how much effort the person put into the group if you weren't there, but unfortunately I know from real life experiences that people who claim to have higher morals than everyone else are usually the first to judge when they have no clue what they are talking about...

If the 6 guild members were capable of getting the sigil without the others they would have done it. They took a gamble with pretty good odds and it didn't work out. Instead of saying, "congrats, enjoy your new guild hall" or "congrats, you're a good player why don't you join our guild" or "congrats, hey we don't have a sigil can we trade some runes or a weapon for it" they tried to swindle it, and saying someone doesn't have high morals because they don't give in to swindlers is ridiculous.

Never said it wasn't your choice. And I just want to state this... many guilds are a small group of friends. Their behavior is because they knew each other and we're spending time together. Then when it came to seriousness again... well you saw what happened they probably freaked out that not one of them got the sigil. I think it was wrong what they did, and several pointed out better solutions. You seem intelligent, surely you noticed this was a group of teenagers or immature adults that are probably best buds in real life. But if what you say is true and they didn't make a "normal" offer or beg and plead. Then I'll admit, even I'd be hard pressed to give it to them. But I honestly believe I would. And as for your last statement.. yeh who can't. Screw over some other guy with it, charge 100k or sell it on ebay for $40+.

In response to your edit. Don't care. They took the time and made most of the team and created the team build. Unless you asked them to join you?

So your response is to punish them for bad morals? How is that justified? Since you weren't nice, you don't get your treat. Wow. And sorry if you feel those that talk about morals are usually the first to judge.. probably right. I judge and am not ashamed to admit it. I judged you by your statement and the moral system you represent. I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean from an outside viewpoint that either one of ours is better. Mine seems better than yours, and to you yours seems better. But to not look at the facts and base your decisions on the friendliness of the team... well it's an emotional response completely. If I like you then you get a treat, if I don't then I'm going to be mean and evil to you. Sounds childish. Admittedly that is way too generalized of statements used... and that emotions are part of the process and I can't deny I have them But IN a GAME, if 6 players put forth the effort and I was the fill in... then hell yes. They deserve the reward no matter how rude they're to me, after all YOU CAN LEAVE A GAME!

Never said that you said it wasn't my choice

I know they were young and immature, that's obviously a given. It's also not an excuse. I now know that what was done on their part was wrong, and again in my opinion, you don't reward someone for that kind of behavior.

The only thing that you've confused me a bit about is this "priority" for the 6 guild members. Everyone put in equal effort, guild and pick-ups alike, and as such, shouldn't everyone have equal opportunity for the sigil? Isn't that the reason A.net made the drop random in the first place?

As I said before, but elaborated:

I would have kept the sigil for myself and told them to go to buggery if they wanted to roll. However, I would have offered to continue on to help win the HoH again so they have another chance at the sigil.

It really is just like every other drop. Should the rest of the team that is a part of their own guild force a roll when you suddenly get a yellow item drop? A dragon sword? A superior rune of vigor? What about a dye or a shell? It's exactly the same thing. You are part of the team, so are they, it was a group effort to get there and the rolls are determined by the computer.

It would be a pretty shitty world if everyone thought that way, "Well, I shouldn't save that little girl from getting hit by a car. Because she wouldn't have saved me if she had the chance."

Well damn, if the world is getting to the point where when people act like immature kiddies and scream and whine and try and cheat their way to things AND get defended for it...well heck, it explains a lot of the people I meet in teaching.

You want your shiny - you ask for it NICELY. You say "Damn man, we were really after that sigil, I don't suppose you'd consider selling it?". If that was me, and I was set up with my guild hall I'd say "Sure thing man, I ain't gonna do anything with it." I'd do the same with any Superior Rune of Whatever that I could make use of. I'd scare people in WoW by crafting stuff for them for free because I couldn't use it. If I wasn't set up with my guild hall I'd say "Well...I would man, but I need one for my 20-strong guild, but tell you what, you up for a second round and the Sigil's then yours?"

This is called manners. If some little sod comes up to me in my class and screams 'I WANT MY PLAYTIME' and starts kicking my ankles do you think that I say 'Well sure thing little Johnny, you yelled and screamed and kicked loud enough, here you go." I sure as hell do NOT. Little Johnny gets a one way trip to the headmaster's office and parents on the phone.

Sides, reading the OP's later posts, he states that their guild ALREADY had a guild hall. Why then did they need the sigil? Probably to scam off to some other desperate guild. Excuse me if I don't go and cry a river for their 'loss'.

So it's 'morals' now to give things to people that whine and scream and generally act like selfish little gits who think the world owes them a living? Well damn, I must be the most immoral person around.

Punish? Playing fair and by the rules is punishment? Every person on that team deserved to get a sigil, because they won as a team. If the 6 could have won on their own they would have. You didn't answer my question, "if one of the 6 got the sigil would they have asked for a roll?"

If you want to give away all your gold and all your items in game, that does not make you "better" morally or any other way. The definition of morals is judging good and bad in people's behaviour. By using the word moral in this context you are implying that people who don't give in to swindlers are bad, and because you would comply you are "good".

I say that is BS...

What you describe is ethics. Morals are absolute. There is no such thing as "your set of morals" or "my set of morals". While ethics are derived from morals, they are more fluid, but morals themselves are absolute.

So in other words, you think you have a superior moral sense. Some might even call it arrogance. Hell, I would call it arrogance!

If you had simply stopped there then I would have no issue with you.

And this is where you keep getting yourself into trouble. You're not simply telling what you would have done. You take it a step further by insulting us and arrongantly--and illogically--stating that you have a superior moral system (implicite in your characterizing us as "low"). This is unacceptable behavior.

But let's, for a moment, look at this from an unbiased perspective. Would you agree with the following statement: People have a moral right to keep what is rightfully theirs. I assume your answer would be yes, so from a strictly moral point of view, the original poster who did not give up the sigil that was rightfully his (it dropped with his name on it) acted morally. Now ethically there is certainly room for debate. You argue that those who worked hardest for it--in your opinion the guild members--should get the reward, but it is begging the question to say that the guild did work the hardest for it. I have no doubt the player in question worked every bit as hard as any individual guild member, so why should they not get to keep the reward that is, if you'll remember, rightfully theirs? Can a coorporate entity claim greater rights than the individual? I daresay it would be immoral to think so.

Now while you would have given over the sigil in such circumstances--with a guild trying to dupe you with what basically amounts to a fixed game of dice--this is not necessarily the the morally superior action, so drop the pretentiousness, o.k.?

You would compare getting an item in a video game to a girl getting hit by a car? Does this mean if someone were to call you on the phone to scam you out of your home, your car and all your money you would let them because of your "morals"?

There's a lot of talk about morals & ethics for what amounts to nothing more than strings of '0' and '1'.

The computer already rolled for it. Unless it was predetermined that the entire group would roll after the drop, the computer's roll stands.

well T I C i was the 2nd person in that group not in that guild, all i can say is yes its a morale issue BUT they told everyone (including me and you) that if you were joining them we all are going to roll on the sigil afterwards and we ALL agreed too (including you) so why would you roll, then lose, and refuse to give the sigil to the person who rightfully won? i know that its "random" but i've seen stories about HoH winning groups where 1 person has got all the sigils 4 consecutive times in 1 case, to me honestly i don't call that really random that is why this guild prolly has that extra precaution and that is why i agreed to that, now the other thing that bothered me when you said "its a 6v2 chance of them winning" sure 6 of em were in a guild and i came to found out they alrdy HAD a guild hall so why would they be anything remotely greedy when they usually give sigils to the guilds that fought with them? my best friends guild gotten a free sigil from them for just being a good sport during that roll, to me thats kind of a test.

Edit: forgot my other opinon..T I C i seriously think your just doin this to make yourself feel better after what you said to them, they never threatened with blacklist either makes ya wonder, i read up a bit more, no both T I C and i weren't asked to join the group we both asked them if we could see'in how we knew they won HoH numerous times before, also 1 last thing T I C why did you go afk for about 30 minutes after the group was done with HoH? i got ticked off and no doubt they all did as you saw by the numerous civil requests to you for the roll when you did finally come back you started slandering asking why do we need to roll (which you alrdy agreed too)

WOW... a soap opera in the making

**grabs popcorn**

Get's better and better. Though I will say this much. I think, IF the original poster agreed to roll BEFORE the match started, then he should roll and abide by the roll at the end. IF he agreed after it started, then it is his. Of course, since it is in the inventory of the OP, then it is his and it is up to him to decide what to do, fair or not... NO ONE has a right to ANYTHING in anyone else's possesions in this game (you want that, head over and play a thief in SB).


Jana

Yes, but they also did not agree NOT to roll.

And whoever said something about being scammed out of a house or car or such. What are you talking about? This guy was not scammed, the other players wanted to roll for the sigel, they didnt trick him in anyway.

I specifically stated that there was no mention of this procedure prior to the HoH win, and I made no such agreement to roll before or after. I stand by what I said in my first post. Take that for what it's worth. I didn't come here to argue about that.

To everyone else, you guys have already answered my questions, and once again I appreciate your input.

T I C, i'm sorry man but you did agreed to roll before tombs even started you can lie all you want dude but when the truth gets known your going to have to change that lie again and again. i'm sorry this got turned into a soap opera also ;p people like T I C who use good people for getting a sigil then changing his story afterwards disgusts me. btw T I C if i remeber correctly you said in that faithful HoH battle you were on TS correct? but on 1 of the other teams had a guildie of yours and was on TS, only the most creative mind can think what happened afterwards /eyeroll and thanks to the admins for letting this TIC charade continuing and not locking the thread before the truth was let out =)

This is my last post in this thread. Again, take it for what it's worth.

By the way, I have no guildies. It's a one man guild with a cape.

*laugh* I couldn't care less. No matter what happened, it was already a random chance that he ever won the item in the first place.

You can like it or not, but he gets to choose what he want's to do with it. Any other talk on this particular situation is merely melodrama.

You compared someone keeping a sigil the game gave them to allowing a girl to get hit by a car. If you were going to make a comparison to real life I was picking something more appropriate.

*IF* they didn't mention the roll beforehand it is a scam. They'd hoped with 75% odds they would get the sigil, but when they didn't they changed the rules to get another shot. I'll admit to mostly playing with guildmates but when I have partied with strangers I've never asked them for a roll on anything they got, and they have never asked me for a roll on anything I got.

Irregardless of the he said/she said, I was only posting because the term "morality" was being thrown around and I still say if you get something legally and someone tries to take that from you and you say "no" you are not "immoral" for doing so...

Since when is someone who wants to roll on something that's already random (which = big baby) someone with decent morals? That's make so sense whatsoever.

wasn't asking for your opinion here monarch =) because *I* don't care about what you think is fair or not =) if rules are set down before tombs even start and all parties AGREE on it does it mean *your* guilds rules take precedent? not in a million years =) some guilds do things differently then others fine with me, i was ok with the rules as was T I C apparently till he lost the roll. the issue here isn't "since its random'd in tomb he/she gets it" the issue is he (being T I C) agreed to a set of rules and when he lost the roll he completely changes his mind. now is it fair the group had 6 guild members? to most no, to others with logical reasoning would conclude by past posts the guild in question alrdy has a guild hall and (a regular sigil price of about 50k i usually see) split 6 ways wouldn't be worth all this "drama" would it? or did it occur that maybe the person who won the roll, guild or guildless would keep it for himself? or lets change the perspective what if T I C didn't get that sigil by random? say 1 of the guild members did and refused to hand it over even with the rules known before tomb started how would he re-act? from what i seen during that chat, it would be T I C right here and now with these words reversed i assure you. so the whole drama about it being random'd in HoH its rightfully his, sure i would go with that but this case is differen't from i've seen and i'm on neither parties side hell i don't even care about that sigil anymore nor would i believe that guild would either, my advice is just watch whom you try to help alot of snakes out there. i'm done its over, everyone just move on with your lives, till the snake comes out and there will be another post about the same situation

Edit: funny how some people think that the guild in question are "Selfish whinny little immature kids" never did they once acted in such a way, frankly i'm see'ing a whole lotta words being twisted to make a story look good for him and get people to agree to him so he wouldn't feel bad, if he didn't why would he be here seeking a communitys approval? my point exactly or is it just all biased stuff? /sarcasm oh look a "i think i got scammed" post! lets feel sympathic to him w/o ever having any proof of his claims and just take his word for it afterall thats a tried and true way" sure i don't have proof either wish i did took SS's or a video of that conversation but the gaping holes in his story should be a hint for some of you

1 last thing, dude you can't be serious about that stuff, the leader and a few others were telling the group to stop those drawings and wanna know who did it? i did, i thought it was funny so what and yes they did yell at me i can be immature at times who doesn't?, and from what i saw the guild always shows courtesy to foreigners if i remeber correctly and i quote i heard a certain person always saying "DIE koreans" and other obecenities and it wasn't them so bascially everything you based that quote from is from YOUR assumptions, thats a trustworthy source of "Attitude" coming from a person which "Attitude" is important.i wouldn't be here defending if i didn't have about 10 people on my ignore list right now. everybody is over the situation but you and your supposeive "1-man guild" is not. thank god for ignore list too

Okay, the way I see it is; here we have TiC saying the guild are being assholes and over here we have the guild (apparently) saying that TiC is being an asshole. I dunno about you, but following his story, you're all a bunch of assholes because it's the same 6 people's words (who are obviously in cahoots, according to his story of course) against the opposite of his.

Then following the guild's story, you have 6 people that are generally annoyed at TiC's tactics of duping the rest of the team against his words trying to seek approval.

From what I can see, there is no third party that is in no way connected to either of the two. Therefore the rule is final, and you both should shut the hell up and get on with it. Either way, you seemed to be a good enough team to get it in the first place, so why don't you just regroup and go for another round?

If I was a mod/admin, this topic would now be closed.

It was a scam.

Good call, mate.

If the guy honestly won the sigil, then he honestly deserves it. Those 6 players were showing no sportmanship. If they REALLY needed a sigil, 6 people could EASILY afford it in their combined efforts. I make 10k without trying. Its insane. 6 people saving up 50k is cakewalk.

Being respectable and honorable also requires you to accept your loss honorably and respectable like. That is more moral. If the guy won it then my morals would tell me to cheer him on and congratulate him on his win.