Henchman AI Behavior Issues

Hello
I wanted to gather as many issues everyone has had regarding Henchman behavior into one post, so list actual problems our henchmen have in regards to game mechanics, and not our dislike for certain ones (since they all react mechanically equal in regards to their programming). The only skill/spell I'd like to see listed is resurrection related only, since several issues arise from that set (we all know Dunham uses Distortion repeatedly, and that Orion uses Fire Storm after everything is dead, but these aren't actual mechanics issues, just poor AI skill configuration )

1) In regards to the Resurrection skills/spells:
A) If your party includes 2 healer henchmen, they will both try to resurrect the same target simultaneously
B) If you yourself are resurrecting one of the 2 healer henchman, the other healer will simultaneously attempt to resurrect the same target, rather than another fallen party member
C) Using Resurrection (particularly Mhenlo) after a complete party wipe and reviving at the nearest shrine
D) 1 of the 2 healer henchman running entirely out of the aggro bubble, and sometimes even radar range, to resurrect the other fallen healer, rather than resurrecting the closest fallen party member inches away

2) In regards to morale boosts/signet recharge:
A) Henchmen take death penalties just like the rest of us, but do not benefit from morale boosts, thus are unable to recharge their resurrection signets
B) Henchmen do not recover from death penalty over time

3) In regards to mechanics/behavior:
A) When selecting your henchmen in an outpost, regardless of what order you select them, once you leave the outpost the order is completely scrambled, thus placing your sensative targets sometimes in front (such as casters) and your warriors in the rear
B) Pathfinding - Upon approach of a large mob of creatures which may wrap around an obstacle or bridge, when you turn to backtrack, henchmen may sometimes continue and 'meet you on the other side' rather than follow your path the way you came
C) Fleeing 1 - Typical when your character is a distance fighter, when you turn to flee, 75% of your henchmen stay behind well beyond radar range, only to break combat after they have suffered roughly 90% damage
D) Fleeing 2 - Typical when you are of any character type, but especially a caster, when a mob surrounds the entire party, and you are targeted and are taking serious damage, you attempt to move behind your henchman fighters, only to watch them run ahead of you and break combat. Thus you are still taking damage, and are now being targeted by their former targets.
E) Area of Effect - Henchmen (particularly casters) are still not responding to AoE spells such as Maelstrom, Chaos Storm, and even Searing Heat. Rather than avoid these spells much like our enemy counterparts, they will gleefully invite masochistic suicide

Thanks for your time, and feel free to add/dispute/discuss anything above. Please stay along the same topic. We all know henchmen can be frustrating given their particular skill sets, but again, that's just poor configuration, and not an actual behavioral issue. If their is another skill that could be addressed that has mechanics issues, please add to the list and explain. Thanks everyone

I dunno about the DP part, i had 45% DP doing henchie queen run with 4 other henchies, all died and ressed up. Around 25 scarabs around there and we took them on no problem. Actually I died and the henchies killed rest. Either they have way alot of life or dunno but we finished it and 2 staffs dropped . 5 Man queen run rocks.

While I agree with everything in your post regarding AI, what I quoted I have to point out. When this happens, and Alesia runs into a mob of 15 to rez someone, rather than wait for the group to eliminate the threat... it pisses me off to no end. The only solution is to not bring Monk henchies AT ALL.

Fix this, ANet, please. It absolutely makes me NOT enjoy playing when I have to deal with that.

I believe the very first thing that needs to be fixed in GW is making the healer henchmen heal. I don't choose healers to be tanks.

Gaile has mentioned they are working on the AI for the henchmen, I personally love when I have to keep Alesia alive (as another heal / protect monk).

Just give us the ability to command them.

I for one would be perfectly content with a setting to tell henchmen whether I want to be at the front or back during a battle. Running as a healer with henchmen is useless since they all expect you to tank for them...


As for the origional poster, gj on catching the major issues with henchies. One thing I didn't really see mentioned though, was when a whole party is dead and spread out except for one healer/prot henchman, they will run back and forth for long periods of time unable to decide who to rez. Also if there is a dead party member surrounded by enemies and the healer/prot henchie is near by, they will often run as close as they can to they dead ally without aggroing, then run away, then run back over and over until they finally aggro all the enemies...

You are absolutely right about that I didn't want an enormous post just from me, so thanks for your input and also mentioning that quirk as well. I knew I wasn't alone when it came to our sadist henchfolk.

And having even simple commands like Diablo stated, such as 'Stay Put' or 'Hold Ground', would be most welcomed. Ever find it frustrating trying to grab a patrol mob using your flatbow (or whatever ) only to have your fleet-of-foot warrior henchfolk invoke 'Charge' and gather not just that 3-person mob, but the 6-8 pack you were so dilligently trying to avoid?

I can't understand why we still don't have this feature.
Taking henchmen is almost getting pointless to a point, unless you simply want fodder for the mobs to hit on while you (I) do all the killing... and even this doesn't work all the time. Someone already mentioned trying to move away from danger so as not to die, and your henchies try to flee or move with you. Even calling the targets to your henchies doesn't lock them in place.
Simply put, we need commands and a way to make them work as they need too. AI just wont cut it, especially when the mob AI keeps getting better (a good thing), yet henchies stay dumb as rocks (a bad thing).
This even brings up another AI issue with henchies and mobs. How is it, henchy healers suicide to heal, yet mob healers don't? Why is it, the little roaches (scarabs) work better in a group then the henchies do? Why is it, the mob archers target and interupt casters all the time, yet henchy rangers/mesmers seem to never (I've never seen them do it) interupt mob casters? See... mob AI (which are mostly "creatures" have a higher IQ then "human" henchies...) is higher than the henchy AI. Sooo, Uh, can I hire mob henchmen instead? PLEASE?

I agree about the commands, especially when I play a healer. I don't really enjoy having to stay at the front, making myself the target of every critters aggression. I have tried attacking and pulling back before I actually wand at them, but the henchies don't seem to get the idea.

Another thing, and this may not be mechanical, but when I go down, they all fall over themselves to be the first to use their rez sig on me unless the protector hench is there. Usually if I go down, its because I got caught right in the middle of the action, which *duh* is not a good place to be when you are trying to heal.

Thanks for putting up with me, carry on.

I wish there was a /stay command for hench. Pulling is hard as they like to charge on ahead the moment I attack something to draw back to a safe area.

Henchman are so hard to control this happeneds to me many times,

Im test running different places with henchies as meat shields, my healers die a way back and all i have are the two wars henchman, i die but the henchman stay alive but then they go back and forth trying tio res me and the healers so i get stuck and have to go all the way back....

Really? I've never heard that they don't get morale boosts or can't recover from death penalty. I don't see why they would have henchmen affected differently like that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, since we can't see their HP numbers or their DP/Morale indicator icons (either of which would be a big help). If henchmen can't get morale boosts and can't recover from DP, that's totally stupid and it should be changed.

And basic henchman controls (Stay, Heal, Attack, Retreat) would be a godsend

Some observations of mine:
Warrior hanchmen will not use their heal signet if they are losing health from degen. Too often have I watched Thom/Stefan die *after* a battle has concluded because they were poisoned/bleeding/diseased.
Further, the healer henchmen seem reluctant to repsond to degen with anything other than regen. This is particularly noticable in the new scarab infested Prophets Path. Get Poisoned and Diseased by the Scarabs while in Well of the Profane, and watch as the healers do absolutley nothing (they cant healing breeze and wont orison.. and Lina is just useless at this point).

I would also like to see some basic awareness of their environment. For example, you stop on an island in the middle of the poison water to catch your breath. Henches stand in the poison. Same with lava- henches feel no desire to get the heck out of it, even though it is killing them rather quickly. This last makes capping some of those hard to find skills in RoF with henches much more difficult than it needs to be.

I run with henchies quite a bit to complete things (despite their AI problems they're still more reliable than PUGs). I think I'm pretty adept at controlling them. But a few things are still problematic:

1) Dowright atrocious resurrection priorities. Whenever one of the monk henchies stops healing for a combat Restore Life you can't do anything but cringe. When Alesia charges into melee range for a combat Restore Life on a warrior henchie you prepare for the wipe. In theory all the other henchmen have resurrection signets, but you'd never know that because they don't use the bloody things. They won't even think about using one until all the monks and player characters with res skills are dead, then they use one just to help build DP on a monk henchie. I have never seen those sigs do anything else.

I know a lot of players are incompetent and want to save sigs like that, but simply put they are wrong. Sigs are used in combat to prevent wipes. When someone dies one of the henchies should res him with a sig immediately, korean style. The monk henchies need to only use Restore Life outside of combat, but honestly they should just not use it period if a living player has a hard res. The AI is downright incompetent with it and oftentimes it's just a 'commit suicide' skill.

2) It is nigh-impossible to escape from a bad pull. You can turn tail and run, but any henchie that has some aggro will happily sit there swinging even if you're half a radar away. This is a hard thing to deal with because you don't want warriors breaking aggro just because a caster player is kiting in the back. But it's still problematic because you have to play flawlessly or fail.

3) Touch range skills on melee characters. Claude running up to Blood Ritual the warriors is oftentimes a turning point in a battle that starts off an ugly chain of events (Claude rambos it up to Blood Ritual Thom, mobs destroy the squishy necro sacrificing himself in front, Alesia stops healing and rambos it up to res Claude, party wipes). Alesia is guilty of this as well, ramboing it up to Healing Touch a warrior. Clean up the AI to not use these skills on people attacking with melee weapons, please.

4) There is no healing response to degen, just Breeze. If you're sitting there at no health degenning out they won't even think about hitting you with a Word until something smacks you. People under degen but not taking hits aren't exactly priority targets so this isn't a terrible AI routine, but letting characters degen to death is just retarded.

Peace,
-CxE

The AI running script fails to factor in that lava, in the Ring of Fire missions, hurts. All the AI script sees is that the lava is a plane that can be moved across, just like regular ground. Time and time again I've walked next to the lava with the henchmen, only for half of them to go tromping through it. I've seen henchmen monks die in the pools because they stand in it to heal the rest of the henchies who were walking through it.

/signed They should have corrected that long ago.

I'd like to see the henchmen given some better skills, like Stefan, the way he loves to use power attack and griffon sweep, he would make a perfect Flourish warrior, have him spam power attack, griffon sweep, pure strick, and seeking blade then use flourish. This would make him far more useful than he is now since he often does no damage. Also how about a better stance than Balanced stance, maybe Defencive stance.

Thom is ok IMO, Thom can at least solo Rockshots unlike Stefan. Claude on the other hand needs to be changed up. He primarily uses blood so why not have him use BiP (since he seems to enjoy suiciding, at least this way he can do it in the back near the healers), Well of Power, or even better Life Transfer.

I think that Reyna should be given at least 1 interrupt skill, maybe Punishing Shot later on in the game. Dunham needs to be able to interrupt at least some or deal more damage or effects. Clumsiness would be a good skill to add to his skill line, and maybe Migraine or Crippling Anguish for his Elite.

Orion needs a complete overhaul since the anti-AoE patch. He always casts Firestorm when you really don't want it, although he tends to cast it right as his target dies 90% of the time. There's quite a few skills he could use instead such as incendiary bonds or Rodgort's Invocation. And since he has so much trouble with energy management later in the game he could use Elemental Attunement.

Alesia: "OOMFG THIS LAVA IS BURNING ME ALIVE!!1! But I must continue to stand here and remain calm and stare at the leader..."

The reason the henchies do such stupid things is because they're simulating real players... >:)

eudas

Henchies are great. All they need to do is remove charge from them so it's easier to pull.

Also, it would help if the Healer henchies stopped to heal whenever they were fleeing or backing away, becuase sometimes I'll backup and they will too - refusing to heal a dying party member.

It would likewise help if all the henchies (besides the healers) had res signets on ever map and USED THEM when someone dies in battle.

hmmm ive killed that damn boss 3 times now and no avail. no green for me. is this a myth?ive done it with 2 monks and 2 wars and myself.

And for the love of god, please ANet fix the monk AI so they stop battlefield-rezzing! I've lost count of the times I've wiped because both mhenlo & wotsherface has decided to stop healing & protecting in the middle of a pitched battle to rez Dunham or Claude.

Can't say I've had many problems with henchmen.. it just took some trial and error to figure out how to control them.

It also helps if there are 2 human players in the group (not just one). You gain much more thorough control if the burden is shared.

A couple of tips..

1 - Always call your targets (helps if you know what targets to take down first.. but nonetheless, call what you're attacking), and your henchmen will always follow your lead. Lather, rinse, repeat <- meaning call EVERY target, not just the first one. If you don't call each target your henchmen will, from time to time, choose their own (and not necessarily the ones you want).

2 - Don't attack to pull aggro. Just run into aggro range, and run back (if you actually have a run skill to get ahead of your henchmen, use it). There's always an off chance that a mob will initiate combat with one of your henchies, but just keep going backwards and they will eventually follow. If you attack, you're initiating combat, and your henchies will take this as a sign to fight to the bloody death.

3 - Keep in mind that Mhenlo will always rez Lina first (if she's dead) before any other henchmen, and vice versa. Monks take care of their own.

4 - If you don't want a dead party member ressurected mid-battle then move the battle out of range of the corpse. This should keep your healer hench pre-occupied. There are odd times when they'll start running back and forth between the fight and the corpse, incapable of deciding which is more important, but they'll rarely decide the rez is more important than the current battle.

5 - Much like #4, if you don't want your henchmen to stand in a chaos storm, or meteor shower, or whatever fiery flaming death is falling from the sky (or coming up from beneath you).. simply move away from it. If you move enough, they'll move, too.


For best control of your henchmen, though, you need 2 human players (as I mentioned above). You can pull aggro easier, control it more effectively, heck.. you can even run with an effective trapper. Just have one player stay back and keep moving (side to side works), and the henchmen will stay back with them. Have your other player go forward to gather aggro, trap, or do whatever. So long as the first dude stays to the back and keeps the henchies dancing from side to side, they won't come up and pester whoever's out front until they're brought foward.


My Fiance and I have taken a crapload of characters through the game, using nothing but henchmen. It's so easy I'm almost tempted to say that A-net should make it harder.

I’ve experienced all those and a few odd ones, for some reason all the henchmen decided to attack separate targets other then the one I called. And I wish they would do something about Dunham always casting distortion all the time.

I'm gonna say I agree with you on this. My wife and I have been eating through the game pretty much nonstop with henchies. Once you've got the hang of how to deal with their quirks, they're easier to work with than a normal PUG by far.

Some things could be fixed (not going into it since it has been covered many times over), but they are definately a breath of fresh air. Somewhat skilled teammates that don't talk back, go AFK, call you a noob, or quit in the middle of a mish.

Make it harder? Well... I would say smarten up the mobs, but just make sure your henchies aren't any dumber than the mobs.

While they did fix the hench not to stand in AoE, I still think they have trouble sorting out their priorities (like the healer who can't decide who to rez.) I was trying to cap a skill in perdition rock the other day, and one of the hydras cast meteor shower. I moved out from under it and they followed. Then they realized they weren't killing hydras, so they ran back in. Then they realized that those meteors HURT so they ran back out. Then they realized they weren't killing hydras...you get the picture. I'd almost rather they just stand under the damn thing and maybe do some damage while they're getting themselves killed.

The three below, But there is one thing that SERIOUSLY effects the game, When in a GVG, and I have one human monk and one henchmen monk, MY flag runner goes to get a flag and ALESIA FRICKEN FOLLOWS HIM! thus my whole team gets slaughter from lack of heal, and hence I have lost the GVG, because Arenanet cannot give equal brain distribution to monster and henchmen AI.


C) Fleeing 1 - Typical when your character is a distance fighter, when you turn to flee, 75% of your henchmen stay behind well beyond radar range, only to break combat after they have suffered roughly 90% damage
D) Fleeing 2 - Typical when you are of any character type, but especially a caster, when a mob surrounds the entire party, and you are targeted and are taking serious damage, you attempt to move behind your henchman fighters, only to watch them run ahead of you and break combat. Thus you are still taking damage, and are now being targeted by their former targets.
E) Area of Effect - Henchmen (particularly casters) are still not responding to AoE spells such as Maelstrom, Chaos Storm, and even Searing Heat. Rather than avoid these spells much like our enemy counterparts, they will gleefully invite masochistic suicide

One thing I hate about henchies is that if I change targets, they do, too. Will this still happen if I've called the original target for them, or will they stick with a called target?

Because you've got two human players--that makes a world of difference. When I play with a friend and henchies, it's so much easier because you can deal with more than one target at once, instead of everybody going after the same target.

I feel henchmen do need a bit of an update in skills. Perhaps a tiny tweek in AI.

Keep in mind, if henchmen get too good, then why would we want to group with normal players? Right now, I only group to help people to be nice or in PvE Tombs. However, my PvE Tombs grouping my go away now that I figured out how to do that with all henchmen, granted in a bit under 2 hours. Hopefully practice will lower that time.

Friends, guildies, family... they have this great ability to talk to us, while the henchies... well, you know. It's also more fun with people you know. There are those times though where:

1) no one is on you know and you don't want to hear whining.
2) are sick and tired of so called "elitests" complaining they died cause it was [cough] someone elses fault.
3) just not in the mood to group with anyone.

It's all really a matter of taste and opinion. I want the option of having henchies that are smarter (they are supposed to be human) than the roaches in the desert (scarabs). At the same time, I want the option to not have to sit idle for 10 to 20 minutes "lfg".

As a side note; I solo'd with henchies all the way to the desert. After that, the henchy IQ seemed to take a nose dive. Not sure if something was updated at that point or what, but till that point I found them useful. Once in the desert... well, I've stepped in stuff smarter than they are.

Edit: please note, I'm NOT asking for an easier game. I'm asking for smarter AI on both sides. Currently the mobs actually work togther as a team. Mob healers stay in the back, mesmers and rangers interupt, tanks rush to the front and go after the healers and eles. They work together.
Henchies, lol - we know how they act. Healers rush to the front lines to tank. Ranger and mesmer wand and shoot arrows doing as little damage as possible. And henchy eles do nothing but cause the "smarter" AI to break what aggro there is and charge the back lines.
Commands would go a long way to fix this. Other wise, the hechies should act like their mob counterparts. Tanks should rush the healers and mesmers, rangers and mesmers should interupt... blah blah blah. Henches should only concentrate on your target when you (or someone in group) calls it.

I could get mad but its so ridiculous i really laugh out loud. My fav is while at a low lvl , capping in snake dance , Alesia lets the party die to run in and res me in the middle of a pile up of 8 beastmasters. \,,/__(>.>)__\,,/

All too true, however I just haven't really clicked with anyone in game to really consider them a friend & add them (or vice versa) and my guild consists of my family - my brother & wife. I don't imagine I'm alone in this, nor do I think I'm a complete jerk to play with (quite the opposite I hope).

Beyond GvG and HoH, why would you want to do a random PuG if the henchies were better than a large part of the GW population? This is true at least in my experience. Thunderhead Keep hard? Not with henchies. Hell's Precipe rough? Not with henchies. Now for me, the only thing faster in PvE Tombs than my "henchway" group is a B/P group.

Around this time you are expected to have developed some strategy in the game. Rushing head first isn't going to cut it. So, you have to learn how to pull groups of monsters, or hit them when they're alone and sneak away ninja-like. Granted, pulling with henchmen is sometimes harder and where I feel some command to say /stay would be helpful.

Smater AI all around, but I'd rather the mobs be smarter than the henchies. The henchmen will always have at least one human player on their side, which should be more than enough. Right now, the only challenges I find are purposely handicapping the group with fewer members, Soloing FoW and PvE Tombs, and I appreciate a good challenge.

Actually, I feel that tanks should intercept the other tanks, which is how I use my henchmen. Also, you are able to wand one baddie and cast on another without the henchmen changing targets. Granted, I do wish the ranger & mesmer were a bit brighter and the monks need a few skills looked at. However, I was impressed to see the Tombs monks using Remove Hex. I do wish they both wouldn't try to rez the same char at the exact same time. I also end up getting double-heals like this. I would like to see them be a little more independent and split up the heals & such, along with condition removal.

Something to also consider would be perhaps adding some secondary skills to henchmen? I wouldn't mind that on the baddies either.

Hmm. Every time I cast, the henchies change target to the opponent I'm casting on. What's the key combo to change target and cast without alerting the henchies?

you can't, unfortunately.

also with the new update, henchies seem to be able to trigger aggro as well.

Thanks for all the input

I wasn't suggesting the henchfolk be revamped to make the game easier by any means. Honestly, GuildWars isn't difficult with the henchmen at all, however I was trying to create a list of mechanical issues that they seem to have (such as the double-resurrection/heal, and the always make-me-giggle resurrecting at the shrine after we've all been reborn - who is Mhenlo trying to bring to life anyway?) :P

Some possible fixes to help control how our henchmen react (rather than act) is what I was shooting for, such as pinging the radar to call them back instantly, or recognize their own aggro bubble to avoid running in to resurrect within a nasty bunch of who-knows-what. Oh and the monk looking after the monk is certainly correct - but even the worst group of PCs I've been with recognize that during a grizzly fight, putting your secondary healer out for 8 seconds while they try to resurrect (if using a spell) is all it would take to turn your last hour in Tombs into just that: an hour, with the familiar descriptive addition of wasted in front of it

P.S. - Thank you again for the input, and thanks for staying on topic *waves*

I really wouldn't, but then, I don't general go with PuGs these days anyway. All it would mean for me (others may go differently) is a faster way to get something done. I was just trying to cover a possible "ideal" blanket possiblity.

Yup, I would hope so. I was simply refering to my first time through the desert, learned real fast too. However, as you also say, pulling with henchies is more difficult. I call it an effort in frustration and an instant head ache giver.

Henchies with humans is true, and we can hope the human is smarter than the henchies. However, without a way to control the henchies, we will never know. If the henchies did their class roles even half as well as the mobs did theirs, then we could have a real battle going on. We could up the mobs health, armor, add more skills to the mobs lists and much more. Why? Cause the AI could allow it. Balance being the name of the game here, mobs too much better than the henchies would chase away all the people who don't want too group.

Tanks vs tanks, tanks vs healers... it's all situational. But you get the idea. Being able to tell "boombsie" and "nitwit" (insert your favorite henchies) to attack mob X would be ideal.

Or the henchies, if they would actually use the skills rather than run around like a clown in the circus. Excellent idea.
The real point for me, I guess, is to make the henchies more useful than fodder.
If someone puts a group together and can't find a monk, wouldn't it be nice to be able to take the monk henchmen and know the nitwt wont suicide or try to tank? Yea, I know, I've seen some human monks try and tank too... but that's beside the point. lol

I will say this ever since the AI update the henchies have gotten worse.I can not believe that Alesia and Lina both have ressing contests when one is dead they both stop to res this is the level 17 to 20s.I was trying to cap feast of corruption up in DD and it took me me like 6 trips from the res shrine.The same goes for the rest of them except Reyna who is alway there and is the last one standing and has a good bow shot.I haven't seen the henchies this bad since the game came out when they would fly off.The only good Alesia is level 3 and 6 when it comes to 10 she likes to tank as well as Claude.I know Anet would rather us use reall players as the game was intended to be the henchies are just there if you need that extra party member and it has bee 15 min since forming groups.I would rather take a Pug over henchies any day.

/rant

Something I thought was ridiculous from day one was the lack of henchmen controls.

If we could set them up with primary/secondary objectives before a fight, and had simple onscreen buttons for Fleeing, Attacking(so you dont always have to go first) and I don't know what else, it seems some of these problems may be avoided.

Besides, we're "paying" them, they should do what we want.