The financial degree of decay

I would like to make a suggestion about the Player-to-Player and the Player-to-Merchant trades.

First of all, I'll introduce myself. I have been playing Guild Wars for over 500 hours for now, from somewhere in July 2005 and I have noticed alot of things changing. Some changes, that have been around for some time already now, have seriously damaged the game in my opinion. But more of this later.

The most important way of getting your desires in surely money. Also in Guild Wars, money is very important. But as you well know, there are problems with money-buying over Ebay, money that usually comes from sweat shops in Korea. (One can spot this time-killing job when he would visit Augury Rock, international districts.) Of course the Guild Wars developement team tries to find these people and shuts down the accounts of those that buy the money, but it's impossible to eradicate all "cheaters" like this.

What's wrong?
The problem is basically very simple: The game got too easy. Everyone can get what he/she wants, and for a cheap price, 6 or 7 items aside. If you decide to make a new character, it's not difficult to get socalled "Perfect" items in Ascalon City. Then all you need to do is buy Superior Runes for the amazing price of 100gold and there you go, you can already wield your max damage weapon.
A long time ago, you were priviliged to have Superior Runes. They were really really rare and just any Superior Rune could give you about 30-60k, Vigor and Absorption aside. That whole concept of having "rare" armor got deleted by adding the Rune Trader. Same goes for the Dye Trader though.
No problem, you still have those Perfect Weapons, who can easily sell for over 100k! Then you decided to add green weapons, that sell for 5-50k and are easy to farm.
Due to these changes, Dye, Rune and Weapon markets collapsed. Prices fell way down, and people could just get richer and richer, which would make the game way less exciting, since you got everything anyway.
Then there were the genious "money sinks": 15k and Fissure of Woe armor. Now that was a very good idea and all, but what's it worth, they have the exact same stats! Isn't it normal that if you pay at least 20x the cost of your previous armor, you at least get something a BIT better, aside a different look? That's what went wrong:
The economy.

(All the above is an actual mind flow from me and many gamers i know in real life or from my guild. This is actually where the suggestions begin.)

How could you fix this?
Player-to-Merchant
I'd begin with REMOVING the Dye and Rune traders. A bit late now, since everyone allready has got everything he/she wants, but I think it would be important for beginning players and players that make new characters. Doing this before the release of Guild Wars: Factions in Europe and America would mean a huge rise in prices, so everyone gets the same chances for the expansion. "Won't this just encourage more people to buy money via Ebay?" you'll ask? Yes, but you could track if an account suddenly gains a ridiculous amount of gold, but doesn't give anything in return. Then you can easily root out the "cheaters", and give them a harsh treatment. Also: reset their accounts, no warnings, THEY cheated on YOU first, and thought they could get away with it.
Assuming you excecute this plan, you'd also have to make green items alot harder to get, and i mean alot, like the new UW items. But then still they're easy to get. So maybe create higher level creatures? There aren't many very difficult areas in the game. I found: 3. 1) The part outside Lion's Arch, when you go north 2) Thunderhead Keep Mission 3) The Ring of Fire islands group. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but you might want to take an example from these areas and creatures.
Another way of solving this, would be creating weapons that exceed the "perfect" weapons from now, but make them really hard to get, nearly unique. World of Warcraft has succeeded in creating uniques, and their market is very good. Not only because they actually have very good weapons and nearly no traders whatsoever, but also because their weapons require a certain level, not an amount of attribute points. I'm not saying you should just copy the whole WoW system (that's illegal anyway), but it's certainly a good example. Many of my friends stopped playing GW when they discovered WoW, because it's just more challenging and exciting. I stayed, basically because I like Guild Wars better, and because I think it can be a better game, just because it's free.
Player-to-Player
Another thing WoW has, is the Auctionhouse. In opposition to the Trade Channel, you can just "put items on the Auctionhouse" and other people can come and perform search actions to find just what they want. Then the buyer and seller have a little chat and exchange items and gold without any problems. The Auctionhouse is just so fantastic, because you don't need to spam some channel to tell others you're selling, you jsut "put it on there" and then others can just come in and find what they seek, with a simple menu-submenu system.

Anyway, to make things short, in my opinion you could:
-Remove Traders [Dye and Rune] (keep the merchants).
-Make harder-to-get items, taht are worth to get them.
-Make Money Sinks worth it (add another 20 armor to FoW armor for instance, or more energy bonusses for tattoo/scar, etc).
-Make better weapons, and make them rarer.

Well, I'm just a fool with a vision, stating my opinion. If you read all of the above, you deserve a medal. Cheers.

Hmm ill read it when I get the time...

Why can't people understand this is BALANCED game? Anet will never make an expensive armour better statwise. But I like the idea on dye and rune traders (makes ettin farming much moooore profitable ) but it would be very difficult for the average player to find their value.

Items that exceed the standard of damage or armor without severe penalties would imbalance the game.

Auction houses have already been mentioned by Anet.

Creating rarer/better weapons would defeat Anet's motto with guild wars which would be along the lines of "Player skill, not rarity of items matters in combat". I dont care about your uber rare crystalline, but if dont even know how to work as part of a proper team, you are useless.

They have green items and collector items and weapon crafters if you dont feel like spending a lot of money.

So basically, you want to take expensive items, and make them even MORE expensive, so newer players have 0 chance at being on par with everyone else?

Screw you too.

Yeah that's true, it is a good idea to remove merchants, the game's gotten WAY too easy, but I do diagree with you warkst on the weapons thing.

I agree all the way. GW is balanced and it should stay that way, with weapons and armor at least.

[QUOTE=warkst]Another thing WoW has, is the Auctionhouse. In opposition to the Trade Channel, you can just "put items on the Auctionhouse" and other people can come and perform search actions to find just what they want. Then the buyer and seller have a little chat and exchange items and gold without any problems. The Auctionhouse is just so fantastic, because you don't need to spam some channel to tell others you're selling, you jsut "put it on there" and then others can just come in and find what they seek, with a simple menu-submenu system.[/warkst]

If you like to compare GW to WoW, then go play WoW. WoW haters don't ever say WoW is better than GW in any way. Sorry if that offended you or anyone else in any way. (I said WoW alot of times in there )

Taking merchants out of the game will imbalance it. You can take merchants out of the game as soon as monsters are able to drop armor, until then just keep em in. I always thought it was a bit of a sob as soon as I found out that monsters didnt drop armor....

You think it's quite a change since July of '05, it's massively different than when the game was released originally---for the better I'll add. Everything, from rune traders to FoW armor only LOOKING different was done for a reason, and a good reason at that. This game is meant for balance, you shouldn't have to be able to have any "1337" armors, or any "godly" weapons. PieXags gives this a /not signed.

No it isn't.

Post invalidated.

No, i wanna take expensive items and make them MORE expensive, so that every new player has an equal chance. This may work as a money sink for the more hardcore gamer who want their nice FoW armor to be nice and black, and then make it harder again for them to get rich(er) again. It would balance out the game after some time, though indeed it might imbalance it at first.

The first monsters are to drop armor are char. So remove merchants from ascalon, according to your theory? You can just increase the rune-carrying armor drops if you think there aren't enough rune drops.

wrrrrong. I have 3 accounts. I transfer large sums of money between them sometimes, and then don't go on one for weeks. Does this mean I should be banned to, because they can easily root me out as a 'cheater'?

Everyone would just turn to ebay if prices were increased to unattainable heights especially because anet is nerfing all public farming areas.

I never even mentioned the words "Godly" or "1337". I said, better weapons. Since people are willing to pay tons for a 10% chance armor penetration, i think 17-30 exceeds 15-28 bows, but that doesn't make them "1337" right?

You've just proven me right on the sloppy supervision. In fact, they should ban you for owning multiple accounts, right?

Your suggestions would completely unbalance PvP.

I can see there are alot of negative responses on my point of view regarding the weapons. Agreed, maybe I got carried away this afternoon, but don't you people think it can be really annoying when you get ranger spiked by a Rare Vampiric Eternal Bow Of Fortitude in the ascalon arenas? I'm sure the game wasn't meant to be played like that.
And making insanely difficult to get weapons/items wouldn't imbalance the game, and it would prove that only a group of 8 disciplined players that know Teamwork can get those better things, which would prove that you get better results through making friends and being skilled.

PvP is unbalanced already. IWAY, VIM, R-spike, Ele-spike: proves teamplay, but it still renders other skills pretty useless. I personally think R-spike is the best build for HA(=HoH). Therefor, all rangers are good for (in PvP) is ranger spike (or VIM, but that aside) and tehrefor have like 100 other "useless" skills in their skill list.

+1

Wealth is truely a matter of personal perception.


I used to play runescape, I had over 400 Million (I was pretty wealthy) in that game before it struck me i was being a sad-arse fool wasting my life, i was competing with idiots. Money don't matter, it's nice for fancy armours, vanity weps, etc, but this game does NOT lend it's self to the traditional MMORPG accumulation of wealth and showing it off with stats, hence why i've only made about 5-7million in the game, a huge amount to some but it's really not much at all compared to dedicated merch's - there's just no motivation for me...I wan't to play games again, not re-create myself in a game, which is I find the persuasion of mmorpgs. in runescape EVERYTHING was about wealth, endless inflation, continual input of new items, price fixing etc...

As an 'experienced' merch and long-term player I honestly think GWs rejects the importance of personal wealth...The amount of ebayer's is perplexing however, it's like they picked up the wrong game, I was speaking to someone only yesterday, he had played for one week and already had 2.5million/15^50 fellblade/chaos axe, blablah...Why? I suppose people will interpret this game in their own way, and whilsts I still feel pangs of want for those 15^50 crystallines, dwarvens, serpents...oh, always damage no penalty weps, the 'rares' (ebayers) market otherwise is so dull it's obscene...hilarious too.

I hope factions put's an end to the turgid thing that is called PvE in this game and completes the promise of war, of random fighting and killing in the middle of huge maps, HoH for everyone, kinda.

The only way to make things EQUAL for newer players is to make things CHEAPER, not more expensive.

._. omg...you're...i can't believe...-.o wow.

That just completely defeats any sensible business model a company would have.

Ascalon Arena is not a good example. Its full of twinkers already. It needs fixing itself.

Besides, having a vamp bow while level 10...not very smart since you are dropping points into all your marks to get the requirement, and that would make you have very little in Wilderness survival to self heal.

I vote yes on rarer SKINS of weapons, but they MUST be equal to stats of collectors or easy to get weapons. That way, owning them gives you ZERO advantage.

Making more powerful and rare weapons is not the way to go.

Thats why they NERF and BUFF. Or in case you havent noticed? Guild Wars is one of the few online rpgs that actually tries to balance its PVP system sincerely.

I ment wearable items not char armors or summit...

On the GW website somewhere it actually says they can sell you a limit of (6 or something) account codes over the internet off the same credit card, after that you must buy additional copies of the game.
So we can't buy more than 6 accounts off the same credit card, but we cant OWN more than 1?

I don't agree, that makes things easier for the richer.

Then fix it! By not letting people get stuff they aren't supposed to be able to have yet!

I can get 10 in marks on lvl 9 only using minor runes, and STILL have 5 in wilderniss.

Okay, of course there must be collectors with the same items, but at least make them a bit hard to reach, because if you're just going to trade 5 frigid hearts (which you can get in under an hour) with a trader just outside an outpost,... that's just making it TOO easy.

True, they try hard and succeed, but it could still be improved. Maybe the Guild Wars Developement team can add a check for green items in the Ascalon Arenas and forbid you to enter if you have any in your inventory? Just a thought

I didn't even know that. Lame?

You can't balence things in PvE or PvP by changing monetary/item exchange rates.

If you want to balence out the arenas and lower level gameplay, put level restrictions on armor and weapons. People in Ascalon Arena should never have had max dmg weapons or Drok's in the first place.

The idea was balenced gameplay as you progress upward. Not, you start at the top and get bored. (Unless you start a PvP only char)

I don't even have 100k, this might change upo factions arriving. Been stockpiling materials lately. But what am I gonna spend my new small fortune on? Easy, outfiting my new Assassin and my Warrior with new armors.

It's ironic. A.Net didn't want gold to be "worthless", but they made it "worthless" by letting everyone have access to everything, everywhere, so price actually dropped to sad levels, and now everyone can afford good equipment, immediately. There's no challenge at all.

I understand, "we want balence", but balence with no challenge is unrewarding and boring.

The disjunction that force A.Net to take the challenge out of PvE occured at the following place:

-Game is released
-Players can choose to do PvE (Progressive Balence), or PvP (Immediate Balence)
-PvE players decide to try PvP
-PvP players start with best armors and gear, they don't have to earn like the PvE, thus PvE vs. PvP = Lose for PvE. (IMBALENCE)

The problem occured because the PvP players may have had to earn skills but not the armor or weapons. They didn't have to "upgrade" themselves in any sort of time frame. This lead to an unexpected imbalence when PvE players attempted to take on the PvPers and lost, badly.

So in a very unfortunate attempt to 'balence" PvE and PvP, they took the challenge out of both.

What they should have done was add a little challenge to PvP, let you be lvl 20, but make you win in lower level arenas with lower level skills/armor/weapons, and move up. Not slowly, so as to remove the "I want to fight NOW" template, but to give the PvE players time to move along WITH the PvP community.

Now, everyone is balenced immediately, barely anyone under lvl 20 goes to arenas, and those that do, got run, have top gear and wipe the floor with newbies in the lower arenas. And there is a severe divide in the PvE/PvP community.

Maybe Factions can do some first aid...maybe.

That's what I'm pleading for, changes. :-)

What on earth is wrong with having more than one account?! I only need the one, but if someone wants to give Anet more money, they arent going to say 'no'.

You can own as many as you want. No such limit exists.

1.Ok, first off: things easier for the rich make it easier for the poor. Hard for the rich, unnatainable for the poor.

2.The only things that can really be marked as shouldn't have is armour. Everything else can't be determined.

Your 3rd comment: does that still make you effective? No points in expertise...

4.Collectors MUST have easy access. Otherwise it puts the player at a disadvantage to PvP.

Major changes to the game are never good. Back to your original post, you have many hours, but lack information. So here's some:

Rare skins are all you'll ever get. No bonuses that will give you an advantage. Making it like WoW will...well suck. People want a different game to WoW so they come to GW. Now, you want to add these uniques, which they already have but they are attainable by everyone. All the expensive armours are money sinks. If you want looks. Then you pay. Making it give bonuses *gasp*
COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS your point. You want the rich to have less advantage over the poor...well, then, the rich will all go get their 15k or FoW armour and own all the forge noobs. MORE OF A GAP!

The weapons go for the same thing.

About the only thing i like about your suggestions so far is your post i have quoted here, right at the bottom. THe green item checker and the forge armour checker. Maybe even a weapon damage check....

If it will screw the balance, even slightly, DON'T SUGGEST IT! Unless you can make penalites to rebalance it.

Just admit it, there is no change or update that can make things fair and balanced again looking to the new players and old players. Only thing that will make this possible is a pwipe every now and then. Stop discussing its useless....

Thread closed imo

If they did a wipe, that would piss off a lot of players, destroying old customers. So, yeah, nothing ever really will balance the economy until we're all commies.

PvP characters, anyone?

Well, I'm asking for the Developement Team to change all that in the expansion.

Oh and, I didn't want to start a group discussion what you people thought would be best, I just wanted to find an agreement in what players would want to see (changed, removed or added) in the expansion. I'm going to start a poll about the Dye and Rune traders. Drop by if you want to.

/not signed

What is with people thinking that tedious=challenging?

That's the whole point of Guild Wars. The challenge is playing the game, not getting the stuff you need to play the game.

Sorry but didn't read that long post, but I skimmed it and the only thing I can say is, Balanced Game. Can't have one uber guy with godly weapons tearing up everyone in PVP.

i think what screwed up the pricing system was the green items? they are so cheap and made gold items worthless unless a rare skin.

Ectos are now the type of trade. I say that anet needs to make more content for rpg. I also say add food in the game. To control the raise or lower food depending on the inflation.

You call it challenging to get beaten to crap by some guy with enough money to get stuff he's not supposed to have yet? I call that unfair.

Ascalon Arena is BROKEN. If you find it unfair to pvp with twinkers, welcome to the club. Stay out of it, its not an enjoyable experience, stop being a massochist.

Creating rarer and more powerful weapons will not solve this problem. All it does is give people who can afford such things MORE of an advantage.

If you want to petition to fix Ascalon Arena, i will be the first to sign.

An armor handicapper, elite remover, etc. to make it an even match for lvl 10s, whatever.

Could be a good idea
problary why it wont happen...
anyways i dont like the idea.


/age
700 hours :P

actually, its far, far, far harder to get rich now than it was 6 months ago; especially with the massive inflation.
a million gold in july is like 5 million now, while i will concede that 6 months ago 15k wouldnt buy you a +28hp sword pommel, let alone a perfect weapon with perfect mods, the droprates have increased so much that while it is far easier to get adequete equipment, it is simentaneously far more difficult to get enough money to actually sustain someone with anything above bootm-of-the-line spending habits for more than 1 character.
the largest effect greens had was to invent a GW middle-class. 6 months ago there were 2 types of people; dirt poor, and filthy rich, with the top 1% of the GW population controlling 90% of the wealth; just like medieval europe. now the middle class controls most of the wealth, but because of the state of inflation for low-grade items, the price for the top-of-the-line equipment has actually grown, as rich people scramble to seperate themselves from the green-wielding masses; and theres pretty much no way logistically possible you could make enough money off of farming greens to buy, oh, say, a 15% req 9 no conditional weapon.

oh, and id like to add, that if they gave fissure armor an actual statistical benifit i'd go from my current three sets today, to 9 sets as of this time next week. im 100% against it, and while i have no objections to greens themselves, i do think anet needs to limit them to the least desireably skins possible; killing the high-end skins will only make the game a cookie-cutter bore-fest inside of 3 weeks. as ive said before, why even have rare skins to begin with if they are goign to make them accessable to the everyone.

Honestly I don't think the economy is skewed so much by the addition of in game elements as it is by third party websites selling gold. Personally I would like to see ANet crack down on these third party sites with some aggressivelaw suits or a more effective method of policing the game. I personally suggested a database query that would be relatively simple to implement which would make it much more difficult for third party sites to do business.