[Renamed]Should Fame be Wiped?

Fame is great for showing off emotes especially when Europe has favor , which lately has been a lot. Think I'll help the States get favor, oh wait, not rank 3, nevermind.

I don't want to insult, but that is a very narrowminded view.

Ever since IWAY has existed, it has been used to farm fame. As a result, fame can not be used as a method of determining player skill. So what IS the point of fame?

Fame as it stands only serves to alienate new factions players who will never ever reach the same rank as prophecies players - so anet are essentially providing an artificial divide between the players that serves no purpose other than bragging rights.

I can understand people not wanting to lose their rank, but then that already happens in gvg, but you don't hear guilds complaining about ladder resets do you? (granted they are regular resets, though)

If fame was a variable points system similar to guild rank whereby lower teams are better rewarded for beating higher teams then it would be fine. This sort of system allows new teams to fight up the ladder and catch up, it also prevents noob bashing as a means of gaining rank. Fame on the other hand is a rigid points system that offers no means of catchup and allows low level noob bashing as a means of gaining points. With no reset, it is nigh on impossible for a new factions player to ever surpass a prophecies player, even if he eventually surpasses that player in terms of skill.

A.net's own policy states that a player who owns only factions should not experience any relative disadvantage over someone who owns both games. That point in itself is arguable (not in this thread though), but continuously inflating fame doesn't seem to fit into that ethic imo.

Please don't flame in response to this post, it's only an opinion after all.

If fame is valueless then it follows that it cannot be viably used to alienate anyone.

The notion that fame levels create an unfair playing field is false. Despite ANets efforts, new players or players with only factions or only prophecies are going to be at a disadvantage because they have less skills. I'm sure the new skills will be balanced but it doesn't stop HA groups excluding players into their build or particular FotM because they do not have an intrinsic skill.

Too bad all you see at Heroes Ascent is

R 3++++ or R6 ....

I don't think fame should be wiped. But I do think that "fame elitism" is a problem. ANet probably designed fame as a way to reflect "time played" in Hero's Ascent, however the community is using it to reflect "player skill," in absence of any other measure.

What would a fame system more reflective of player skill than time spent consist of? Consider this, what if fame was not awarded until you won consecutive wins greater than or equal to your rank divided by 2 OR until you won the Hall of Heroes. I think this minor modification would greatly make this system of fame much more reflective of skill.

If ANet, created another measure/system (e.g. "fame2") which is a better indicator of "player skill," (than time spent) I think that would reduce "fame elitism." (or at the very least fame elitism would be better justified)

You do realize a change like that is just about the same thing as fame right? So uh, lfg farm fame2?!!? rofl

Fame will only destory HA. Pvp needs fresh blood to make it worth while. Tell me how fun is it when you are a new player to pvp. I see rank as the bully that picks on the noobs. For exmaple rank 12 says he wants more rank to show off, so lets farm noobs. Now the noobs found a way they can farm fame. The higher ranks are now pissed that these noobs have turned the tide. As they is more new players there will be smart players coming to help the noobs out. In the end pvp will die.

If you wipe fame think of the poor nubs who got all the way to pheonix, plus people would be playing iway 24/7 to regain rank so they could be highest in the game at the time.

I've been playing for quite some time now and even getting rank 2 was a feat. Wiping fame below r9 would just give the people above it more extent to bragging rights.

Translated:

Like I said....just remove the emoticon, this way they can show off their precious rank all they want during fight.

Comparing Rank to Pve is a rather moot point, it takes 1 day to get to lvl 20, months for r3. And in PvE the level of discrimination is way less than PVP. Its not like people accept people with fissure armor over one that has regular armor, you can't spam I got 10 million gold! and get into a group faster than it takes the regular guy. Even with some of the class and build picking its still way faster to get into group in PvE.

1.) "Levelling" time varies
2.) More discrimination because it's more competitive
3.) Slower to get into groups, mostly because of #2.

Well, I'd say that while the Fame<->Levels comparison was indeed crude, if that's all there is wrong with it then I still stand by it because the basis remains.

I actually think it would be faster to get into group since there will be a larger population to choose from, considering there are way more lower ranked people than high ranked people.

And please don't say people would just go with guild and friends. There are SO many people I know that does not have a guild nor a lot of people on friends list. Its not that they are low ranked, its that they don't have too much time to dedicate to a guild.

That "translation" up there is one of the funniest messed up things I've read in a while. I'm mainly a PvE player, and I just about fell on the floor laughing at that joke.

Anyways, with Fame and Rank. I have 0 for each. I've played in the RA from time to time for some fun PvP, and it is fun. I can imagine getting into coordinated teams that use tactics and plans would provide an even more enjoyable experience (aka TA and HA). However with everything I've read in threads regarding the HA it doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort to even step into a district and attempt to play there. Not so long as the elitist crap continues to exist. I'll just keep my PvP fix with RA, or other games like CS - don't have any 'grouping' issues there.

Clarify: I'm saying that above to say that I'm unlikely to be alone in this thinking. Therefore there are plenty of people out there that would PvP and bring 'new blood' into the HA but will not due to the migraine inducing elitists.

I was just wondering where the bandwagon stops, so that I could get on too??

I wouldn't mind a fame wipe but only if they dropped the intervals or added emotes for each rank..

hmm then, all ur lvl 20 characters and all your gold and weapons should be wiped too?

One could argue that the ability to put aside one's own biases in order to do what it takes to win, not the least of which is playing the characters and builds that give a player the best chance to win, is the most basic level of skill. People who have run iWay to rank 3 or 6 or 9 have done something that players without those emotes have done - they have won, and won a lot. If winning is what emotes are about then how are those not earned?

Talking about how iWay wins 'don't count' doesn't win you any games. It doesn't help you gain ranks or become a good player. It just makes you look like a scrub. While you were busy complaining about the lack of mixed teams in HA, other players adapted to the times, played iWay, and won. Guess who I'd rather have on my team?

The point of fame is to give a reward for PvPing, and to make grouping easier. Yes, easier. Even if your friends aren't on, if you have a /rank emote you can find other people with comparable experience, get a group, and go play. Yes, experience. You can say all you want that fame is not an indicator of player skill, and I'll agree with you. It's an indicator of experience winning in HA, a combination of player skill and time spent. Unranked players, without exception, are either not very good or have not spent much time in HA. Most of the time it's both.

Scrubs aren't magically going to get into good groups just because there was a fame wipe. In a competitive environment players always find ways to discriminate between those who will contribute to a group and those who will be a liability. New players are always going to be left out, because the good players want to win, not train scrubs.

The players who would be most hurt by a fame wipe would be those caught in the middle. The players who aren't 'tombs rats', but have been at it a while and are appreciating being able to get competent groups now that they've proven their worth. It's a pretty sizable chunk of the population, and it's not terribly well known. A wipe would drop them back into the dark ages of bad groups and bad players. What does that accomplish?

Hell, who does this help at all? The scrub population that's sick of having to team up with other scrubs? I think it's a pretty safe bet that your average unranked player thinks they're better than they actually are. A lot of them think they're actually good players, but it's just rank snobbery that keeps 'em down. And you know what, in some cases it's true, particularly for people who've spent a *lot* of time in the arenas. But in general they're unranked because they aren't that good and aren't very experienced, and they're the kinds of players that experienced teams *should* be passing over if they're trying to win.

Want to get in a good group? Stop sucking and win more. Winning solves the rank problem faster than anything.

If they wanted to make fame a better tool for a more casual player (and, really, that's who it's for), I think there needs to be one minor, but very significant change to the system:

Fame from the arenas.

Not a lot. Say, 1 fame for a 10 game win streak in competition arenas (making it to team arena), and 1 fame for every 5 consecutive wins in team arena. That rate would be glacial compared to what a competent team gets in HA. But it would have value because of what it does for newer players - it lets a newer player who's interested in the pick-up PvP scene learn the ropes in the arenas and have something to show for it.

Assuming perfect timing and never losing a game, getting a deer in team arena would take 900 consecutive wins. For most players that'd be pushing 100 hours of PvP. I don't think there'd be any argument that someone who's won that much in arena is very likely competent, and at the very least experienced as hell. That's the qualification that people are expecting out of someone who's rank 3, it's a distinction between an experienced player and the utter n00bs. I believe that the r3 jump is the most significant one in HA.

A little bit of fame in the arenas won't mean much in the long term, but for people who have played a lot and are competent it will effectively lower the barrier of entry for HA. The players without rank really will be noob for the most part, and people who have trained in team arenas (which is actually a more skill-intensive format than HA, the competition is just lacking) will be able to prove to others that they are, in fact, competent. It's a minor change that'd solve a lot of problems with the current system, and I can't help but hope that it's put in.

Peace,
-CxE

I don't really agree that fame is to make grouping easier, because right now, even at higher rank, it still takes quite some time to form a group that's not IWAY or some other cookie cutter build.

With IWAY, Smite, Spirit Spam, etc. etc. It has become considerably harder to get out of "noob status". 5 months ago its r3, now r6 is considered borderline. WIth the slow process of forming a normal group, its impossible to catch up to the ever increasing rank requirement 1 fame at a time.

This is why we need a better group forming system, an alternative to gaining rank, AND a way for people to lose rank so they can't farm all day and drag the requirement up.

I would say to remove the emoticon altogether like I did before, but I would really prefer a method that makes people leave.

EDIT: I think Ensign has a good idea. As TA actually does require skill to win consecutively and it gives people a little reward when they're playing TA. At least then you won't be doing TA for no reason (like Balthazar's Faction)

Problem w/ fame is that people use it to discriminate. I know (no names) quite a few players who went IWAY crazy and have like Rank 9 or 10, yet they CANNOT run any builds beside that. One of them is my Guildie (unfortunately). He bitches about the IWAY nerf CONSTANTLY in guild chat and says it is so unfair. Yet, we try to take him on a balanced, spike or trapper group. What do we get? A player with no skill whatsoever and no idea how to run a build. The only thing he knows what to do is drop spirits (since IWAY had spirits). He has been kicked because that is all he knew how to do and I'm sure he has gotten in another guild with his Rank 9 or 10 (I forget, but he did have the Tiger emote). Then, he might get kicked again due to lack of skill (unless that guild runs IWAY).

I have heard many solutions, like
*you can't do a Rank emote in HA, so you have to take them to a town or outpost to see, which is a pain in the ass
*you can't form groups and it is random (HORRIBLE AND HIDEOUS idea)
*and some other ridiculous ideas

At first, I thought the first idea was reasonable. But after further thought, what if a guy just claims to be say Rank 6. Then you win a few matches. And then, in green text, you see

"{insert name here} has just become Rank 1!!"

I wouldn't be that pissed if we had already won a few rounds. A little pissed for lying. But, then there would be a lot of people who don't know maps posing so they can play w/ the big boys.

How do you get to Rank 3 when everybody is in Rank 3 Groups only?
*don't pay, because then you will still be a noob in HA and not know anything
*grind possibly until you learn the maps well, then join a guild or get a few good friends to help guide you

I had to grind to Rank 3 w/ friends because nowadays all groups are like R3 +++.

Anyways, just my two cents. I'ma go out somewhere cuz of the whole system reset.

A W/R?

Ppl that complain about it want to play in grps that are FUN for them...Do u know what that is? You know how you play a game for FUN..i know its a hard concept to grasp. Anyway

With fame exists 1) Elitists 2)ppl that think they are good because they have lots of time on their hands 3) Hard to find grps because of discrimination.

Without fame exists the higher possibility to find the grp you are wanting. Simple. It might not be the greatest but you will eternally have that problem.

Now besides that...its usually Guild grps that win halls not pugs anyway. Also, because fame is so inflated, it doesnt mean anything. So you got lucky enough times to get on teams that won and you are r3 or r6 gj. Just because there is a grp full of r6s doesnt mean its harder to find bad players. If a grp cant tell if the player knows what hes doing by his skill lineup then there is a good chance he has some idea.

If everyone that has devoted way too much time to HA wants to keep their fame, idc, thats cute. But there needs to be a way for them to lose it. i promise that it will start to distinguish skill lvls much more.

Later

Edit**

To those that keep talking about how if fame is wiped so should gold and items to give everyone a fair chance, that is just stupid...The only discrimination based off of items in pve is due to Warrior Full set Knights Armor.(and that happens in pvp too) Im pretty sure ive never heard someone advertise for a "Warrior with a 15^50 wep only plz". So plz stfu.

i don't think you'd want this. becuz you would be permanently stuck at 0 fame.

most r9's didn't get there from grinding single digit fame.

people need to wake up and realize that r9s will be better than r0s. PERIOD.

There are also people who want to WIN. Do you know what that is? That's the main goal in PvP. While having fun is important, some people don't find being in a clueless group very enjoyable.

You mean to say people who think they're good because they are. They're experienced. They have lots of time on their hands, and that makes them a better player than you because they've played it more times than you have.

The chances of winning also go down. Hey, you're 100% guaranteed to find a team in Random Arenas. Team Arenas also isn't that bad.

You do know that every character in the group is important, right? If you suck, your whole group goes down. It sounds like your definition of "FUN" is being dragged around HA by experienced groups.

Also, you can find skill lineups all over the internet. Doesn't say anything about things such as how they can react to the constant changes in battle.

Way too much time, huh? You like to mention playing time. So, what's your definition of 'just enough'? How much you play?

That's cute, but the game doesn't revolve around you.

the point of playing the tombs is to get fame. people are technically "farming fame" if they devote themselves to tombs playing ANY builds, folks, not just IWAY or any other FOTMs. if a person plays tombs almost all the time tells me that the real reason why he plays it because its fun, ill just think that he's BSing me. GvG is more fun than tombs.

fame was never a good indicator that he can play all the classes there is superbly. fame is somehow an indicator of how well he plays his class when he almost got his fame playing that class. fame is a reward to a team of 8 people WINNING in tombs and an accumulated fame gives rise to rank, which is an emote indicating that one joined a good group and win, win, win.

the more you advocate fame wipe, the more you overvalue fame. if someone /rank you, just shrug it off and carry on with your thing.

You have to realize that fun is subjective. Just because it's not fun for you doesn't mean it's impossible that other people could find it fun.

im not sure what side of the boat im on about this topic any more.

ever since i hit rank 9 i have allmost completly stopped tombing.
that was 6 months ago. got tired of seeing iway groups.
i quit tombing after spirit spam for about a week, but then they fixed that junk really soon. the way i see it, tombs will not be as fun as gvg until they do something more drastic to discourage the use of iway.

i like the fact that i have a tiger, but when i show it lately i get called a iway newb or iway RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. and that really sux. it actually bothers me a little bit, because fighting against iway all the time is what lead me to nearly quit tombs all together.

so now my tiger emote that is 6 months old is frowned apon by the low ranking players. its not even worth showing publicly anymore.
worked hard to get where i am today, as i was against spirit spam, ranger spike for the most part, altho it was alot more beatable than spirit spam, and iway.

i got fame thru balance, mostly guild group balance. and now it means nothing. so im not sure where i stand on the fame issue.

id be fine if it did get whiped, just let me keep my tiger.
id be fien if it didnt get whiped, just prevent "fame farming" and try to keep tombs more balanced and fun.
then again, id be fine gettin in 5 gvg matches every day and say the hell with tombs.

solution to the problem in my opinion......

just quit guildwars if you cant live with the current situation.


because, i can live with it, perhaps i dont like it, but i can live with it because gvg is where its at nowadays.

Fame and the importance people place on it is the stupidest thing in GW, IMO. Wipe it, don't wipe it, ego conscience players will then only allow people with FOW armor, or 3,000,000 exp, or some other silly method of determining a player's "skill".

My suggestions - go start up a guild, invite all of your leet like minded friends on your friends list, and play as a team in GvG. Let your GUILD ratings do the talking. Oh wait, that's just as meaningless, with all of the smurf teams on the ladder.

Novel idea - how about everyone play the game instead of worrying about the size of their e-weener.

If you fame farm you basically know the build(s) you played to farm for it, the maps, and some experience with the players around you that helped you. Unless you do PuGs all the time and don't care to start adding friends and create a possible awsome team for HoH or GvG, but thats rare anyway.

There are GvGs that players MUST be ranked to be in. So what makes HoH differnt from GvGs other than you can go up to possibly do 1v1v1v1v1 or something and get fame and the emote for it to show off to all your friends. Sometimes its fun and sometimes it isnt.

People will B---- and moan if there is no fame wipe and people will B---- and moan if there is a fame wipe.

Either way we're going to LIVE with the decision. Even if to live with the decision you either have to quit or stay and keep on playing and life goes on as normal as it can.

The grouping problem is that the current system is extremely discouraging to new players trying to play normally. It already takes an extremely long time for a group to complete because the problem of having to reroll characters and having to explain/listen about the build afterward. Then, there's the issue of TS/Vent communication. Now, add Rank requirement on top of all that, to finally get in and lose first round. Who wouldn't get frustrated?

Sure, some people manages to grind through it (like me, I feel so proud), but most would either quit, or do copycat easy build farming, and both situation is not good for PVP.

That kind of talk is the reason there is more problems in pvp.

Yeah!

There's no reason to think a r9 group would be more likely to win halls than a r0 group! Why would people think that?

You said it! Experience holds no bearing on success here! What do people think this is, a game based on skill?

The rank emotes make it easier for people to get in groups, thats why they are there and it works. If there was no emotes it would go back to the good old boy network. You would never get a group as a unknown that was worth a darn. We already been there done that. You havent been playing this game long and dont know the snobish history of Tombs it will become a very closed circle and you wont be in it. The emotes give you a chance to work you way into the scene, try paying your dues and learning to play with other r0-r2's then get on each other friends list and get r3 and r6 together.

No need for me to do that since I'm past that stage (R6) but I can see the frustration that newbies get, so basically I am speaking for them more than myself. Its way harder for new player to "pay their due" now since the noob status rank is increasing. R3 is now considered only marginally better than unranked, and R6 is the borderline point. Compare to months ago when R3 is all that is needed.

So, as I say before, people get frustrated and decides to go IWAY, smite, etc etc. to catch up, which in turn make the rank worth less, and then more IWAY, and higher rank req...etc etc.

You see what I mean?

Wow, some of you people are exceedingly stupid.

I venture the suggestion that perhaps experience AND skill can be important.

What you have to understand is that Guild Wars is not a pick up and play game like many other games (I'm thinking primarily of pvp here.) The experience that a high rank shows also indicates a certain level of skill as the rank rewards increase as you win strings of consecutive victories. In other words, if you play pvp for 1000 hours but lose 2/3 of the time, you will have far, far less fame than somebody who plays pvp for 1000 hours and wins 2/3 of the time. The fame gained will not be linked simply to number of victories but more attributed to consecutive victories.

Let us assume that we have two groups of players, both are unranked, both are playing HA for the first time. Both groups have similar unlocks and experience in pve. Both groups are running the same build.
Group 1 enters HA 8 times, and wins 4 of these games in a given time period, always losing on the second map. Group 2 enters HA 3 times in the same time period, and strings together a 4 win streak on one run, and loses in Underworld on both of the other two occasions. Now the 'luck factor' in terms of who each team faced cannot be discounted as a possible variable to this example, but winning 4 consecutive victories without facing at least one team which has a slight clue as to what they are doing would be rare. At the end of this run the members of Group 2 would have more fame than Group 1 even though they both had the same number of victories. Would you not agree then that Group 2 might be considered to have exhibited superior skill than Group 1 thus rendering the argument that fame has no correlation to skill void.

I would not for one moment assert that the fame system is perfect, but I think its quite possible that most people who claim that fame is worthless have both not thought it through, and are likely themselves unranked and are thus clutching at possible ways of boosting their own status in a world they understand very little about.

Well of course the ranked groups are going to be running established builds more often. A vast majority of ranked players are ranked because they *want to win*. A tested, established build that people are familiar with gives them a better chance to win than something unfamiliar and untested.

If they hand hangups about not running 'cookie cutter' builds simply because they're 'cookie cutter' they very likely never would have earned that emote in the first place.


Suck less. Win more. The rank requirement is increasing because more people are hitting those ranks. If they're doing it you can too.


No, that's not the problem with fame, that's the point of fame. It's a tool to allow players to distinguish experienced HoH players from the masses of noobs in the same district. Discrimination is simply drawing a distinction, and making decisions based upon those distinctions. In the case of Guild Wars, that distinction is 'hmmm, one of these guys has over 1000 fame, and the other is unranked. I think I want the player who's done this before on my HoH team'. That is a far cry from irrational, social discrimination that plagues human society and has made that word almost taboo.


Plus, if you actually look at the argument it's downright comical. The *only* zone in the game where that emote has any meaning whatsoever is in the Hero's Ascent staging area. Why would you remove the ability to use your dinstinguishing tool in the only zone where it actually matters? That simply doesn't make any sense.


Scrubspeak.


I don't have fun unless I'm winning. Call it a personality flaw if you will.


Read: people who don't want to group with scrubs.


Read: experienced players that scrubs resent having to compete with during group formation.


They're choosing not to group with you because you're a noob. In my estimation they are making exactly the right call. I wouldn't want to group with you either.

The fame system, at least in your case, is a resounding success.


You mean scrubs will have a better chance to sneak into good groups. Erasing fame would make it that much *harder* for people who play to win to avoid scrubs. It cuts both ways.


Well of course they do. Players that play together a lot get used to each other's tendencies and form a team that's stronger than its individual players. When you play with the same people all the time you tend to be in the same guild.

This should surprise nobody.


Sure it is. A r6 player is statistically less likely to be terrible than a r0 player. That's why people care about fame. Are there terrible r6 players? Sure. Are there excellent r0 players? Sure. Are they both exceptions to the rule? You bet.


That's the biggest problem, and that's what I think needs to be addressed. The barrier of entry in HA is pretty high and it doesn't get any easier with the organized, ranked teams running around. Anything that'll make it easier for people to get involved without turning the entire format into a big, ugly, chaotic mess gets high marks in my book.

Peace,
-CxE

strong proof that fame is worthless is EvIL and other top GvG guilds who never/rarely do tombs. i read somewhere that some(correct me if im wrong) of EvIL is not even rank 6 or 9. yet they are the best in the game.

what am i saying? that fame is not an absolute indicator of skill, close to worthless if you may.


i will choose a rank 1 GvGer belonging to a top guild over a rank 10 hardcore tomber anyday.




and how about inexperienced rank 0-1 gvgers/pvpers? well thats another story.

Apparently.

Of course it is. Experience is a prerequisite for skill. I would also like to venture a suggestion: that I was not in disagreement with you.

Although I think a fame wipe would be a good idea, after seeing the bitching people had after the rollback today where the majority of people just lost 100 ectos that they didn't have a right to have anyway, I can just imagine the bitching over a fame wipe. Its a good idea, but I think that by now it would just not work.

My bad. I'd take a player from a top guild in my group over somebody with a better rank. Thats unrelated to the point that high generally correlates to success in HA. Sorry if i didn't illustrate that in my last post.

Theres a difference between an unranked gvger from The Last Pride and average joe in American District 1 spamming 'Saccer LF Minone factree!!1'