[Renamed]Should Fame be Wiped?

A wise suggestion.
I took this as veiled sarcasm. If it wasn't, consider yourself vindicated. In any case what I wrote was a general response to the posts in this thread more than in reaction to you specifically.

This game didn't always have fame. What did people PvP for back then?


It's kinda funny. PvEers grinding for loot and gold. PvPers grinding for fame.

Easy, the person gets into a non-ranked group. I mean there's going to be a ton of new players so it's not a problem.

Personally, I think it would be pointless to have a fame wipe. I'm rank 2 at the moment, and it's because I simply don't do Heros that much. Ok so maybe a fame-wipe would slightly increase my chances of getting a group for awhile because everyone would be even. But I only do Heros about 2 times a week, so I'd eventually fall behind again anyways.

I think this stands for the vast majority of players. Sur eeveryone would be "equal" in terms of getting groups for awhile, but if your only rank 1-2 a wipe isn't going to help much because chances are you play Heros alot less, than let's say someone who got rank 9. I think a wipe is unfair to those who have their ranks since as I said even if everyone is even in ranks for a time, the people who have the higher ranks tend to play more Heros Ascent anyways so it would end up being the same thing pretty quickly.

OMG WTF NEW PLAYERS WILL BE LEVEL 1 BUT WE'RE ALL LEVEL 20 WE SHOULD RESET XP.

This will never happen. Fame emotes may eventually be removed entirely, but the fame itself will always be there. The problem, as too many people fail to understand, is not the fame... its the fact that you can explode an animal into someones face and show how much you have. One of the very basic facts of HoHing is that you gain fame over time (like XP for PVE), and taking that away is just not going to happen.

New players will have no fame. They will also have no HoH experience. They will have to gain it before they can be on par.

Yes, there is a rift from high to low fame. But I'm with the new people, been r2 forever (Damn sms farmers, get off your asses and pvp!). So if anything, I'll have some company down at the emoteless levels.

There really isn't anything to say that hasn't been said.

Best Idea Ever.

/signed

I don't agree for the Competition Arenas.
1) Twinkers in low level arenas will abuse of it. Farmers with a lot of time are everywhere.
2) Winning in Random Arena is a matter of luck more than a matter of skill. Sure if you are skilled you will increase your odds of winning, but, if only one guy in your team suck (by rushing, having a silly build, don't know the basics of positioning and movement) you can loose too easily.

Getting Fame from Team arenas is maybe a solution, but also GvG! A GvG player-based rank would be really interesting.

I think you missed the second paragraph (or failed to understand it).

Fame as currently structured is "experience points" for playing Hero's Ascent. In the absence of any other measures, just as in Player vs Environment Pick Up Groups (PvE PUGs) people group with more experienced (higher level) characters because all other factors being equal a higher level increases your chance at success. However, just like in PvE PUGs "experience points" is mostly a measure of time played, not necessarily player skill.

Does the current fame system reflect the Guild Wars design of "player skill being more valued than time played?"

If there were two fame systems: one measuring time played and one measuring player skill, which system would be used in forming PUGs in Hero's Ascent? Which system would be more equitable to new players?

That's your personal opinion. I play only HA, never GvG. Because to a player like me, GvG is utterly unfun. My guild has nothing to win there and everything to lose. Tell me ONE single reason why we would want to GvG when there is no chance ever for us to make it in the Top 100?

Also, i'd ALWAYS prefer a ranked player in HA over someone wearing a famous guild tag, but no emote. You know, he could be someone who never actually participated in his guild getting famous. Lately there was even a discussion going on about some Top 100 guild selling off places in their guild...

a.k.a. being experienced. Which is the point of fame...

I like the idea of getting fame by winning in TA, by the way. 1 fame per 5 consecutives sounds good to me, too. That would be enough to slowly get to R3 but not for any high level emotes. Together with an in game group matching system it would help new players to get into HA. And it would make a lot more sense than those whiners' suggestion to erase fame.

Ensign, i see your point there about how they want to win more, therefore they want people with a rank emote. But to some newbies to the game, they want to try Heros out, but then all they see are people advertising for R3 or more players to be on their team and therefore, cannot get in a group.

Basically:
-To get into a group, you need fame.
-To earn rank and fame, you need to get into a group.

I was in Heros once, and someone just said to me "You should of gotten your rank while everyone else did noob" yea easy for you to say, when you started from no rank, the rank elitism didnt exist.

Just trying to point somethings out

wiping out all fame would be utter chaos. first off to get rank 9 even with iway takes at least a month ide say even if you highered a fame farmer.theres a ton of ppl who have spent a great deal of time workn to get there rank. and its just like pve would you want them to wipe out all ectos that have been gotten from farming with a 55 monk? yeah my thoughts exactly. wiping out all fame would prob end up with the loss of quite a few valuable players. as for iway its a build that did not break any of the rules. it was simply a build that was thought of which became powered. its kind of like spike builds in the since that its been discovered what skills work together to be the most balanced in both att and def. meaning like the necro spike uses 4 necro skills for spiking and then the rest r heals used after a spike to keep the team going. as for iway it used all attack skills except for iway which was a self heal after ur pet allies have died thus giving it more attack power and requireing less heals than most other builds. in my opinion people are mad about iway because of how much it has grown and there jeleous that they didn't come up with it. with the new balancing of the skills we have seen much more builds that are even better including things like the pressure fast cast aoe build which is really fun and if ur opponent is balled up when its used as a spike it will wipe out the entire team at once. trust me ive done it and its awesome

What is the real disadvantage? I dont see any real loss to me other than bragging rights and the use of emotes. The "advantage" prophecies players have over factions-only players is no different than the "advantage" somebody playing for a year has over somebody playing for a month. I think reseting it would level a playing field that should not be leveled. If someone has earned that fame, then it should remain as it is, because there is no real benefit from it and they have spent the time earning it. It could be compared to taking all the items away from Prophecies players because the factions players will start out with nothing. Something people have earned should not be taken away to make it fair for newbs.

Wow this has to be one of the most double edged swords you can post about. I mean come on, seriously.

Everyone who has hit their r9 or better will have an extensive list of friends that they have made during their pvp'ing to get that r9, and will be easily able to run and get that r9 again WITHOUT the people that this supposed reset would fix. the same high ranked players will regain their rank, and the same no-ranked players will still have nothing.

So in 6 months, well be right back here having this same argument that "OMG i cant get into a grp because they only want r6/r9+!!"

Im sorry, but if im trusting someone to get america favor/grp with when i want to pvp, i would much rather trust a grp thats around my own rank than an unranked grp that will not have the expierence. Can a r0 pug read a spike? can the r0 grp know what tactics work well with different maps? can the r0 grp tell me what strats to use for alter matches vs relic runs vs normal maps w/ priest vs normal maps w/ only ghostly? All of these things come with expierence and learning from different builds.

The problem ive seen is that since there is no one that could get into these grps to learn these things, they formed mass IWAY grps. well IWAY does have its tactics and does rely on some strategy on certian maps, but then how is that IWAY player going to learn an obsidian flame spike? or a ranger spike? or blood spike? simple answer... hes not. And when he tries, since all hes played was IWAY until that r3/r6, he doesnt know how to kite with a monk, or play a warder, or how to catch a heal in time with infuse, and thus he gets booted from the grp for being a so called "bad player" (seen it happen way too often) because they have never run that particular build/class, and thus without being into a grp to learn these things effectively, they go back to pugging IWAY.... vicious cycle

That's really just what happens. Which is why I really hope Anet does something to make HA more accessible for new players. In the meantime, let me tell you that I got my rank when the rank discrimination already existed for a long time. Was it hard? You bet. Is getting to R3 still possible for a new player? Yes, it is. All you need is time and determination and no rank discrimination system will ever stop you. There ARE unranked groups forming all the time. Yes, it might take longer to get into a group than for a ranked person, but if you have some patience, you will find a group.

I didn't say anything about the low level arenas. I think it goes without saying that those are just cesspools of abuse and no one wants to give fame for winning there.


Let me turn this question around for you - is it *that* much more luck-based than getting a win with an unranked pug in HA?

But at the same time remember what I said about the rate of fame gain in competition arenas - *GLACIAL*. One fame for managing to peel off a 10-game win streak and getting to team arenas, which, if this change were in place, would be much more competitive. A comp arena team won't peel off 10 in a row unless they're doing something right, usually a competent monk combined with a decent to good player on offense and a couple other guys who know how to do damage.

But really, look at the numbers. You need a 10 game win streak to get one fame, with a random team. Even if you're a super-stud comp arena monk who always gets on a good team, it'll still usually take you an hour to peel off those 10 wins. That's one fame per hour in comp arena. Assuming you spend an evening doing that 3 times a night you're looking at *two months* of doing comp arena every evening to get a rank 3 emote. If you're just an ok player who's relying on the luck of the draw to get on a good team, you might get on a good team that makes it to team arenas every night - in which case it would take *SIX MONTHS* of continuous play to get a rank 3 emote.

The one fame really isn't anything in the grand scheme of things. But for a new player, it's enough to get them interested. It's a small reward for a player seeing that amount of success. It might be random, and yeah, some bad players will luck out and get a bit of fame. But to get enough for an emote? You're looking at thousands of hours in comp arenas before luck takes over and they get an emote, and at that point you can let them be a happy anomoly.


I don't really like the idea of fame from GvG, not just because it's a different gametype but a different crowd. It doesn't have the pickup scene that HA or the arenas do, and I really don't want to see it get that. At the same time GvG does need some rewards, particularly for lower-rated guilds who really don't have a reason to play. I think they should be guild-specific, though, not player specific. Things like guild storage, or other unlocked guild features would be great.

Standing out I like on a guild-basis. I like the guild cape borders because they're distinctive but they put emphasis on the guild's banner. I'm not big on the idea of a guild /rank emote because it feels too much like a personal, 'look at me!' thing. Rewards should glorify the guild, not the player, because success in GvG is absolutely a guild thing.


Fame is actually very aptly name, a high fame is a very good measure of, well, how famous an individual would be in Heroes Ascent. Fame is a combination of presence and success, and while you can rag on a weaker player with a high rank from playing a lot, that player probably is famous for, well, always being there.


There are two basic problems with a 'fame' system that doesn't reward time spent, ala it will go down over time if you lose.

The first is obvious, an individual player cannot carry a team in 8v8. You need a good team to go anywhere. This would be particularly problematic for a new, unconnected player. He'll be stuck with other unconnected players, and is in all likelihood going to be losing a lot more than he's winning. His 'fame' is going nowhere but down. Even if you put a zero point on it he's going to have any progress he makes erased quickly with every loss. If you think the fame game now is unfair, just imagine what it'd be like if you couldn't even keep the little fame you get.

The second is that if you think rank snobbery is bad now just imagine what it'd be like if people had their own ranks on the line when they formed a group. Not only would you never get into a higher ranked group by chance, but a higher ranked player would *never* play with those of lower rank. It would also virtually destroy the pickup scene. Sometimes a friend will message me to fill out a team going into HA, or someone from these forums will ask me to tag along on a run and give pointers. Under the current system that's perfectly good fun and I enjoy doing it if I'm not busy. But if my rank was going to drop if I did that? Well you can kiss any sort of pickup team goodbye. For me, at least, making it ranked would ruin the entire point of HA, going in with pickup groups and seeing what you can do. I'd want to stick to guild teams to give myself the best chance of winning, and if I'm doing that I'd rather be in GvG.

HA is the highest level of pickup PvP for most people, but it really is a casual environment. People play a lot of gimmick builds there for easy team formation but also because they just want to play and not worry about all sorts of strategic implications. You play, you win, you lose, weird stuff happens, but hey you get some fame at the end of the night so who cares? With a player rating system I don't know that I'd play HA at all, and I don't think the change would benefit anybody. It would make a run at the Hall less rewarding and less satisfying for just about everyone involved. I can't understand how that would possibly be a good thing.


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. People want rank 3+ players because they know a rank 3 player isn't a complete newbie, and a slow trickle of fame in arenas would let people who *clearly* aren't PvP newbies show off that level of competence. To get a deer in team arena would still take at least 900 wins, more if they don't all come in multiples of 5. Even for a fast team that's around 60 hours of consecutive wins in team arena, which I'm pretty sure is a good enough indication that someone's competent.

A group matching system would be nice all around in game (PvE players would like it as well for their pickups), but that'd be a pretty intensive new feature. An easier feature to put in, I'd think, were rank-specific staging areas. If the rank 3 and rank 6 groups had access to their own exclusive staging areas it'd make forming groups easier for them, and the unranked players would be left in the 'basic' staging area without all the rank snobbery. It's a quick and dirty solution that I think would satisfy everyone.


That's a different problem. Basically, the players who both understand HA well enough to organize a team strategy, and have enough initiative to form a group, are generally not unranked players. The players who have initiative get ranks quickly and the experienced players who could organize a team have the ranks to go with that experience. I don't believe for a minute that there aren't a lot of unranked players in the HA lobby. It's just that they're new players to HA (by definition), they don't have the experience to really get something going and, for the most part, they aren't really the types or aren't comfortable trying to organize something.

When the game first came out everyone was unranked, but there were distinctions. There were people from the closed test or the beta weekends who had some idea what they were doing, and you could tell the leaders. They were busy forming teams in the staging areas. Those players gained ranks fairly quickly and many of them eventually migrated to GvG. The big difference now is that there aren't those leaders in the unranked community, to get things going. I think you'd see that if there were rank-specific staging areas. Maybe the lack of rank snobbery would bring people out a bit more and lubricate the grouping process. But I'd guess it'd be pretty similar to what you see in PvE, people silently sending join requests around.

Basically I don't think the problem is rank elitism, as much as the demographics of the current unranked crowd. Which is why I think there need to be new features to help with group formation and fame acquisition for people who missed the initial wave - ala small bits of fame in the arenas and perhaps rank-specific districts to make it easier for people to form teams.

Peace,
-CxE

heh...i stopped bothering to try to get into HA teams. When I first got the game, i was one of those PvE noobs that learned how to use skills the hard way (people bitching at me even though i got the game as early as I could). However, I also TA and GvG a lot. Yet I have no rank...I'm an experienced player (a mesmer at heart in PvP even, and can conform to many builds) and yet i can't find a group. Despite this, I'm not entirely for a fame wipe.

Pros of a Fame Wipe:
-Experienced PvPers like myself (over 200k faction- playing all different classes and help guildies with pve and such) would be able to get a group. (did this game come out in US before Canada? jw...dont remember- so long ago heh)
-No more R6+ groups and no more "guild recruiting rank 3+ or 300k faction pvpers". Like rank 3 doens't equal 300k faction...most likely farmed (although in some cases no)
-Easier for PvPers to get into a competitive guild (and for those guilds to HoH...my guild isn't experienced enough for HoH, so its very hard to get rank)

Cons:
-For those who worked very hard for their fame, it would be sad for it to go away.
-A lot of noob groups, although essentially this isn't a bad thing
-etc...too many pros and cons

Rank shouldn't be used to determine whether a player is experienced or not...thats where i hate rank. I have had the game for a very long time, and when people call me noob because of my rank, it is VERY frustrating. Too bad I like shutting down monks in PvP...at least i can play in TA

So what should be done?
IMO Either:

A) Rank shouldn't be viewable to the public in all aspects (to friends and guild members)
B) Make rank obtainable in GvG (that would be useful wouldn't it? If rank is meant to show off 'experience', rank should be obtainable in GvG, as it requires as much (if not more) communication and skill then HA (and i have been in many failing HA groups. The problem- no communication))

However, in all honesty, a fame wipe in a future game wouldn't be that bad...it's a new game isn't it? Doesn't everyone want to try out a factions battle (with so many people). However, I think something needs to be done to stop this rank prejudice.

True, people w/ Factions would be at a TOTAL loss. Using Ensign's idea because they can't get into HA groups, it would still take them forever and would totally alienate them.

Rank would have to be viewable as that was the original intent, to be able to show off. Did ANet know it would turn into a form of discrimination? It is impossible to know the future, but I'm sure SOMEBODY there foresaw the possibility.

Oh, and if there was a fame wipe. It would be newb groups mostly, not noob groups, lol.

Problem w/ GvG giving fame is that it already has its own rewards. Such as moving up the guild ladder. I think for most people there is already an incentive to GvG (counting on the fact that they are in a competent guild).

Also, a lot of people lie about how much faction they have. Rank can be shown. Some people go:
"Oh, let us see, faction...Oh! I have used 340,670 faction out of 346,520!'

Personally, this will be a problem for newcomers (Factions and beyond) and is currently a problem for those under R3. Sometimes I go in an unranked group because sometimes they actually aren't bad.

Ok pvp players you have a choice. keep your emote and you might see ha die. The second choice get rid of emotes no more farming noobs, fresh blood to pvp. It may or may not get get better from there.

I think this up to the people who love pvp on this one. I can only see ha getting worse if emotes are not fixed. more farming. more stuff like Iway.

Maybe anet can come with better rewards like umber wepons for pvp players or something.