Charr leadership, history, motivations, relations with other major races, etc.

Note: This is a Spoiler, for those who have not completed the game, I advise you not to read this.





I've read in the past people questioning the leaders of the Charr, this screenshot proves that the Titans are whom the Charr look up to.



After doing Nolani Academy for about the 6th time, (yes on different characters), I finally decided to go out the front door, and skip on the bonus. I have never looked closely at this burning figure, and since it just looked like a pile of burning wood from the back I never considered it as anything.

This thread kind of turns into a question of the plot in Guild Wars.

I'm confused. What I don't get is the fact that Vizier Khilbron, the ultimate leader of the Titans and Charr, also controls the Mursaat. What I don't also understand is how did the Vizier get such a big hold over Kryta. The Vizier and his forces, were supposed to come from the Northern Province of Drascir, (northern part of Ascalon), this meant that Kryta and the Kingdom of Orr was safe, atleast until after Ascalon fell. After Ascalon had been broken through, the King of Orr had opened the sacred scrolls below in the Catacombs of Arah, and had stopped the Charr from invading the Kingdom of Orr but had sinked the entire peninsula. At the same time, Kryta was considered safe, due to the arrival of Saul D'Alessio, he who had worshiped the Unseen Ones, also known as the Mursaat, after having a vision he had went back to Kryta to form the White Mantle, and had "protected Kryta from the Charr Threat".

So after all of this... I'm guessing Krytan's were decieved by the White Mantle, then the White Mantle were decieved by the Vizier? (The Vizier had us kill White Mantle at one point.)

I have also wondered about this picture, i took it too, it seems that Titans are in Charr fooklore or something? Vizier is powerful also, its really easy when your the undead lich

Ya its a tribute to when Charr fought the titans and they light one whenever you NEVER did the firestarters quest so they started a fire.

Not quite. He's the leader of the Titans in this incarnation, via the Scepter of Orr. However, ancient creatures such as the Seer have knowledge of the Titans in Tyria before, meaning this isn't the first time they were set loose... You'll notice the Titan Source is in dragon's gullet. Most likely the charr either fought against them when they were in Tyria before or ended up somehow worshipping them, hence they create an effigy of a Burning Titan to watch over them.

The mursaat, ancient spellcasters likely determined the nature of the Door of Komalie and began constructing defences against them. Whatever foray brought them to Kryta, they were found by Saul D'allesio, and thus the White mantle were formed in semi-unknowing defence of the door of Komalie.

The charr arrived out of total obscurity, it is possible their development was somehow rapidly forwarded by the arrival of the Titans. After some time, they began the invasion. Khilbron blew up Orr, etc, because the Lich. While undead, he most likely discovered the Flameseeker prophecies and sought to capitalize on the next arrival of the Titans, having knowledge of how their possible relation to the Charr obliterated much of Tyria.

Well that my theory... completely forgot about that effigy. Good post.

EDIT : After using the lump of matter known as my brain, I'm confindent nearly everything I wrote above is nonsense in it's entirety, because doesn't the manual timeline mention the last sighting of the Titans in Tyria is very, very, long ago? I think the likelyhood is that the Charr found a solid, dead Titan and worshipped it as a statue, somewhere in Dragon's Gullet.

The visier doesn't control Kryta or the Mursaat... he controls the undead who where assaulting Kryta, and possibly the Charr through visions/promises of their lost gods, the Titans, return to power in the world.

The visier was always at odds with the Mursaat and Kryta, because they held the Scepter of Orr and the Bloodstones. They stood in the way of his ambitions to unleash the Titans and control them. The problem lies in that the Mursaat weren't nice guys either, so the visier, by being at odds with them, could scoot you along to defeat them for him. However, since both sides were bad guys, which ever one wins the hero still loses.

I'm not sure where you got that the visier controlled the Mursaat...

There are those statue-esque things in presearing... across the wall. Dunno if that means anything though.

Check out the Lore Forum on GWO, they discuss stuff like that there.

But yes, the Charr do worship the Titans, which is rather odd since it seemed not even the Vizier knew what was sealed behind the Door of Komalie. They've also got effigies of a creature that's either the Mursaat or the Lich, it's pretty unclear.

The Vizier retreats behind the Mursaat in Hell. You'd think he would be oblitrated by the Mursaat with such a massive army if he wasn't on their side, so I don't see how he doesn't control, or have an alliance with them.

Thank you for the spoiler warning

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. There are no Mursaat in Hell's Precipice and it's stated quite clearly that the Mursaat were guarding the Door of Komalie. Khilbron wanted to open the Door so he could release and control the Titans. So the Mursaat and Khilbron have opposite goals and are enemies.

I came into this topic expecting to see Charr with skirts and pompoms.

Where does this take place? I've never seen that.

Anyway, I agree with alot of what Avarre said. Also, Avarre, they timeline is talking about those gigantic skeletons you see in Dragon's Gullet and in the Desert. Those aren't titans, they are referred to as the Great Beasts.

It would seem most likely that the Charr worshipped (Atleast the fire based ones) the Titans. And whether this was from battle in the past, or just devoute loyalty right away no one knows. What is known is that they're methods are similar. Titans infest an area, the leave no creature alive. Charr do the exact same thing. The Charr and their relationship with the Titans are alot like a native tribe and their gods. Alot of time, tribal societies base their religion off creatures that actually exist. They create statues and likenesses of these animals or other things to give them strength.

As far as Khilborn goes. Not knowing what you're talking about with the Vizier hiding behind the Muursat, I've never witnessed any connection between him and them. He seemed completely determined to have them destroyed so the Door of Komalie would be completely unguarded and easy to open.

One of the things I dont agree with from what Avarre said was the reasoning behind Orr's destruction. There had to be other ways to protect Orr with the Scepter other than blowing it up in the backfire. I'm pretty sure the Vizier knew exactly what he was doing, what that paticular spell would turn him into and what power he would have because of it.

Thinking this way, the Vizier destroyed Orr knowing he would become the Lich, and now has an entire dead country to use as his army while trying to enact the Flameseeker Prophecies. I'm pretty sure he knew all about them before destroying Orr, and it was his plan all along.

Whether the Charr coming there was his doing, or if it simply provided him the opportunity he was waiting for, we cant really be sure. It would be helpful if Anet provided the manuscript of the prophecies.

Seriously though, the quest Last Day Dawns, will paint a good image just who'se in control of these charrs.

What they're getting at about him retreating past the mursaat, is how does he always get in a mursaat infested area, and never get attacked?

He teleports. plain and simple. he just teleports in, and teleports out.

Now, I wanna know more about the seers. they are mursaat i believe, and are against the mursaat for some reason.

So this is just coming to Guru now?

A guy over at GWOnline, I forget his name, has done EXTENSIVE research into this stuff, and made quite a few connections.

His research articles are long reads, but very interesting.

I remember he was proving that the Forgotten Bows and Swords are a lesser 'species' of Mursaat. They spikyness at the back like Mursaat, but do not float. They also have an identical logo on their attire to that of the Mursaat.

Nah, we knew this already since last year. We just didn't want to be rude and rub it in to Uchiha saying "this is old news."

This really belongs in the Druids Overlook section... anyway if memory serves, there's such an effigy in presearing even, if you venture far enough beyond the wall

Several in fact. I know them well.

Yea well here at GWG people tend to not be quite as FANBOI as those at GuildWars Online, where any word against the lauded Anet gets quickly edited out, or just erased all together.
Thank God for a forum where people can actually express their POV without having to worry about the MODS editing out anything they dont agree with, any statements portraying Anet in anything less than glowing terms, which is all too common at GWO.
So if it comes down to me having to wait a year to find out some trivial piece of info(not saying it isnt interesting), Ill wait thanks(GWOFTL).

dude thats a Oakheart on fire, havent you ever gone charr farming in pre sear. They are everywhere.

So what does this have to do with Data?I am a Star Trek Gamers Super Moderator btw.

Don't hackjack the thread please.

Anyway, I really wonder about the charr invasion if anything. They can be,

a. They just happened to decide to invade Tyria.
b. They recieved oracle from the prophecies, and decide to free their god with the flameseeker prophecies.
c. The Mursaat want to elminate all the possible chosen, therefore they pursade/force Charr to attack the human kingdoms, as chosen come from them.
d. The Charr was told by their priest that the Titan God had spoken to them, that they must invade Tyria to free the god.

All up in the air...

and... WILL GWEN BECOME A SUPER WOMAN CHARR SLAYER? =P

Seems like in the last two missions the lich and the mursaat were in cahoots but i never really payed much attention

the char definately worship the titans...the titans have gotten out before...last day dawns does explain/show char following big titan bosses

Ok, I was wrong about being wrong then

I think the Vizier never intended to become the lich. If he had really meant to, he wouldn't have waited till the Charr overran Orr. I stand by what I said, that after the Charr crushed Orr, the Vizier used his last capability to throw them back, destroying Orr. When the Vizier awoke as the Lich, he learned about the possible Titan interference with the Charr, and took steps to capitalize on the second coming of the Charr in the Flameseeker Prophecies.

Is it really so complicated?
The Charr's religion says that Titans are gods, so they build effigies of them,
much like Hindus build statues of Hindu gods.

My understanding is the Lich needed to get past the mursaat in order to call forth the titans. It was the mursaat that were preventing the titans from spreading across the land. Whats sort of confusing is back in the Maguuma(sp) jungle when your facing the white mantle... they have mursaat like monuments found again in the fire island. Yet when your in the shiverpeaks... example being the iron mines... the mursaat and the mantle do not seem to be getting along. I have seen them attacking eachother.

I almost have to wonder what the heck it all means. Mursaat are a pain in the ass... the charr destroyed ascalon... The mantle have their own little war going on and also try and kill the Vizor who we know is the Lich who is on their side anyway??? I'm giving myself a headache. Maybe I just better complete Last Days Dawn since I have it

I'm not sure if this was said already, but think of it like this:

1) The charr worship the titans, and are their Gods. How on earth did they encounter them in the past is beyond me.

2) Perhaps the charr know of the prophecy. The titans most likely gave them the power to start the searing (if they already had such power they would have blown Ascalon to pieces some time ago). The charr had used the powers to intentionally create the searing. Thusly, they drove the chosen into the Nolani Academy mission, and thusly, the searing created a chain reaction that ended with the chosen being led by the Lich/Vizier Khilbron to the Ring of Fire to unleash their Gods.

3) The second-in-command charr are the charr lords, the third-in-command...well, do you remember in pre-searing, north of the wall, you can travel to the fire shrine that the charr used to conjure the searing? I think all those bosses there are the third-in-command, think of it as a High Council or the Elite Magi, or something of the sort.

4) The lich simply wanted to use the titans to rule Tyria. Not much relevancy there to that of the charr.

5) Vizier Khilbron most likely, as stated above, did intentionally create The Cataclysm. He was probably very aware that the dark magic from such powerful spells would be enough to be so unholy and...well...evil, that it would cause those killed to never find rest, bringing them back as undead.

6) The enchanted are just magical, animated sets of armor and weaponry, brought to "life" by the Forgotten, since they are mainly spellcasters, they had no chance at any melee/archery, hence the need to create them. Similar story with the Mursaat. Due to their inability to excel at much not related to magic, they animated jade and weapons to create Armors/Bows. Ever notice many jade bosses have Cairn in the name? (To name a few, Cairn the Troubling, Cairn the Smug) Maybe Cairn is a popular name...or maybe it's Mursaat-lingo for something like "elite combatant"?

7) The Mursaat, like the lich, don't really care much about what the Charr do with the Titans. They are one of the few races (next to the seers and charr) to know of the prophecy in full detail, and it says they will be destroyed by the Titans. Thusly, they must slaughter those destined to unleash the Titans and assure their doom. Thanks to Saul D'Alessio, the White Mantle worship the Mursaat, so they use them as pawns to do all the chosen-killing for them. The Mursaat prefer to be in hiding, their villages are deep in the jungle, and they did not show themselves until it was truly necessary for them to get involved (after the Crystal Desert, the Chosen have gained so much power and are getting so close that they, themselves, must help attempt to stop them).

Cairn: a heap of stones set up as a landmark, monument, tombstone, etc.

Probably used as a name because the Jade statues are tombs of chosen souls, which power them. Whereas enchanted are, afaik, simply animated armor, Jades have chosen souls, bound to the will of the Mursaat, acting as power. The captain that takes you to RoF from Perdition mentions this.

The Mantle have Mursaat statues in many places (Temple of Tolerance, for example). It's possible the Mursaat left them for additional defence of the Mantle, or that the Mantle simply raised unpowered ones in honor of the Mursaat. The ones in Maguuma, however, are raised over the bloodstones, absorbing the charge.

At the Onyx gate, there is a small port where jade statues are packed for shipping. This leads me to believe that the charged statues in Maguuma are transported (probably by the Mantle) and shipped elsewhere as well. The shipping of statues is how the Mantle got them in the first place.

Just a random note about the Mursaat, it's fairly obvious who their leader is. Only one Mursaat has no title, and that's Optimus Caliph (Caliph : A leader of an Islamic polity, regarded as a successor of Muhammad and by tradition always male).

So his name is something like Optimized Leader?

Lol, it's possible. The forest troll leader in the WarCraft series, Zul'jin...some crude translations reveal that "Zul" means "Great" and "Jin" means "Leader". Great Leader...hehe.

Which statues? The jade ones (aka the ones that crumble into Jades near Markis, the ones surrounding the Shrine Of Mending at the Temple Of Tolerance, etc)? As seen at the end of Abaddon's Mouth, there are more of these "statues". These spires jut upward, supported by the ether seals at their bases. Other jade structures float in the air, linked to these spires, most likely helping power the door. They do not appear in the Hell's Precipice outpost. Either they did not want to bother with the graphic intensity, or they "collapsed" when the door was opened. In which case, for some reason they re-appear at the end of Hell's, when you return to the door.

Okay, here's what I'm pulling from the plot...

1) The charr invade Ascalon. Because that's what Charr do. Ascalon retreats to the mountains.

2) The Stone Summit dwarves just don't like anyone. So they attempt to kick out the Ascalonians who are now in their territory. The Ascalonians run to Kryta.

3) You work with the White Mantle to help make the area safe for the Ascalonian settlers as well as calm relations between Kryta and Ascalon.

4) You discover that the White Mantle are killing "chosen" people to please their masters. You join up with the rebellious Shining Blade to fight against them.

5) Khilbron shows up and tells you that while you may defeat the White Mantle, you are no match for their masters (the Mursaat). You have to go to the desert to ascend, and THEN you can trounce the Mursaat. We now know that Khilbron doesn't like the Mursaat.

6) It's the job of the Forgotten and their Enchanted pets to make your life difficult as you try to ascend.

7) You go to the Southern Shiverpeaks because your Deldimor buddies are having a rough time against the Stone Summit. In exchange, they'll offer to help you against the Mursaat.

8) Given that the White Mantle and the Stone Summit can be seen fighting in Iron Mines of Moladune, we know that the Mursaat and the Stone Summit are not getting along. But seeing as how the Stone Summit hate everyone, this isn't surprising and doesn't mean you've got new allies from anyone.

9) The Mursaat want to take you out because they know you are the only ones who can stop them (a la Flameseeker Prophecies, as learned from Glint). The seers want to help you because of an ages-long war between the two races. To hinder your progress, the Mursaat want to take out all your allies, hoping to isolate you and make you as easy to kill as possible.

10) You save Deldimor, so now the dwarves want to help repay the debt and take out the Mursaat. Which is what Khilbron wants. -Flash forward through RoF missions-.

11) So... Khilbron wanted the Scepter of Orr to have the power to control the Titans. The Mursaat feared the titans, and kept them locked away. Khilbron used you as a battering ram to free the titans. By controlling the titans, Khilbron also gains control of the Charr, who worship them. He couldn't control the Charr before, when he blew up Orr. But that Cataclysm made him a Lich, so he could gain the power needed to rule the world.

The Mursaat just sort of got in his way. Poor Ascalon got kicked around. I think the Charr might have been an unintentional side effect of controlling the Titans that just sort of worked out in Khilbron's favor. By killing lots of people, he could raise a big undead nation, with him at the lead. The titans were good at killing things. The charr liked killing things.

That would be what is known as a 'bug'. Mantle worship mursaat.. man have none of you read the lore book that came with the game?

Yes, a gambling, drunk, hopeless man, Saul D'Alessio was known for working in this notorious gambling guild. For a time, he was exiled into the Maguuma Jungle. He prayed for salvation or something, and he stumbled upon a village of creatures (the mursaat). They cleaned him up and took care of him, and, in turn, when returning to Kryta, he was like a messenger, spreading the word of these great creatures, and, under his leadership, the White Mantle was formed, and the charr were chased out of Kryta.

Hmm, I wonder how the Charr coped with the dwarves? Since the charr travelled to Kryta back near the end of the last Guild War, I don't know if the Summit was formed back then (some npcs say it's a very recently-started civil war), but how did the Deldrimor stand up against the Charr? Also, how did the Charr get through the Crystal Desert to the peninsula Orr was supposedly located on, or adjacent to without being devoured by the Sand Wurms and other creatures over there?

The charr army devoured the guilds and nation armies. Can you imagine an army of Charr large enough to roll WM, EvIL, and iQ? That's how they got across alive

As far as I know it...

- Charr worship Titans, for having soooo much power (they met last time the Titans went walkabouts)
- The Titans are presumably creatures of the Underworld, and as such, can be controlled by the Sceptre of Orr, as can the Undead.
- I'm guessing that since the Vizier read the Forbidden Scroll in the vaults of Arah, he learned how to use the Sceptre to control these beasts.
- Meanwhile, the Mursaat are manipulating the White Mantle into destroying the Chosen to hold the Door of Komalie closed.
- The White Mantle enjoy this task (not good), and get a little, let's say over-zealous in this action; thus, some Krytans get suspicious and form the Shining Blade.

- The Vizier/Lich sees the White Mantle and Mursaat as a huge obstacle so sends you to Ascend so you can destroy them.
- You meet the Forgotten, the caretakers of Tyria and the guardians of the Prophet, Glint
- You push the Mursaat back and break open the Door of Komalie, thus allowing the Titans out again.

The Charr chain of command goes like this (I think):

Lich
^
Titans
^
Charr Lords
^
Normal Charr Bosses
^
Normal Charr

I have a question though; if the Mursaat were trying to stop the Door of Komalie opening, does that mean that they are good, and that the Seers are evil?

I think that the Mursaat and seers are the same species but two different factions and that the Mursaat won in a previous war against them and now the few remaining seers try to use the chosen to get revenge, perhaps orchestrated by the Lich to help the chosen open the gate of Komalie. I think the seers are really a bit out of the loop and problably are being played by the Lich. Poor guys.
Does anybody know exactly where Orr is supposed to be? I always thought that it was North of kryta, off the map, hopefully that northern area will be the new continent in an upcoming expansion and things will be much clearer.

Look at that scorched peninsula to the west of the Crystal Desert. That is supposedly part of of Orr - I mean, it is all scorched, The Cataclysm is a good cause for such. Many other islands are broken around that area, though the majority of Orr was probably thrusted into the sea, as mentioned in the manuscripts.

Perhaps the seers simply want to defeat the mursaat, and don't care for the titan aspect? I'm doubtful of that, but their race seems to mainly just be focused on fighting the mursaat.

Basically, the mantle and mursaat are, indeed, the good guys. The bad guys are the charr, the lich, and us (but we were tricked by what seemed to be an obvious traitor plot). It would not matter, though. The prophecy says we are supposed to let the titans out, knowingly or not.

actually he was gambling against this guild (The Lucky Horseshoe) but had uber debts, and started robbing merchants between beetletun and lions arch to pay them off, but was caught and exiled

Yes, Orr is supposedly in the area of broken islands between the desert and the Ring of Fire chain.

And then we have the Titan quests, to basically make up for our mistakes? Well, not really our mistake but whatever. Personally, I think just about everyone in the game is a bad guy and the poor Ascalonians just get screwed around with by everyone. :/


Ok, reading through all the posts, the whole story is starting to make more sense. The first time I went through the story I missed alot of things, interesting what you pick up when you go through again.

Can't really trust anyone but the Shining Blade, Glint, the Deldrimor Dwarves, and your fellow Ascalonians (though you don't encounter them much later ingame except for Last Day and Source).

Well...the Lionguard too, since they have now supposedly regained Kryta.