Charr leadership, history, motivations, relations with other major races, etc.

It's not a 'The Seers are bad, the Mursaat are good'

It's more likely that the Seers and Mursaat, being very similar races, were caught in a large war and the Door of Komalie was simply held by the Mursaat. It is possible the Seers did not know or care about the Titans behind the gate, as they were only in direct war on the Mursaat.

What seems odd is that the Seer certainly knew about the titans, yet never attempted to inform you about them and only directed you against them after the Mursaat had been swept. In my opinion, it was the Seer who really understood what was going on, and wanted you to open the gate, destroy the Mursaat, and then fix the problem for the glory of the Seer race. The Seer can be seen as one of the antagonists in this aspect, as it's them that drives you for their own gain. Once the Mursaat were gone in entirety, then the Seer gets you to close the door and destroy the Titans before they can cause additional harm (bonus quest). By the way, can someone name the seer race? Only that particular one is a Seer, the rest are something else. If nobody wants to, I can try to go think one up

This is not exactly correct. The chain of command goes like so.

Charr -> Bosses -> Lords -> Flame Lords

Of which all worship the Titans, which are controlled by the Lich. The Charr, however, would not obey the Lich directly, they are more of an uncontrolled factor that increase the might of the Titan armies by following them directly.

The Titans themselves are what appear to be constructs of the gods, and sealed behind a bloodstone, appear to be incarnated Destruction. The reason the Sceptre of Orr commands them is because Orr used to be the Kingdom where the gods dwelled, likely the Sceptre was created and left behind by them and thus can control their devastating weapons left behind (the titans). The Titans remind me of the Weapons of FF7, constructed by the planet in defence, only the other way around (contructed by the gods for the purpose of oblivion, for whatever purpose).

Then how come the undead are in Kryta? and there are no Skellies in the desert, which would pose no problem to creatures who dont need water or food. plus the Quest "Orrian Excavation" where you have to find orrian artefacts takes you to the North Coast of Kryta.

Im pretty sure The Seer is a Mursaat just in different armour with it's wingy bits tucked in, part of some dissident group who are fighting the majority of the Mursaat.

The seers may be another faction of mursaat, or had been mursaat themselves somewhere down the line.

Still, what can we ponder about the titans...the charr met them at one time, meaning they had been free in the past. What was their purpose for creation? Were they like Halo's firing system, created for some last resort purpose, or are they just demons from hell?

The true splitting of the bloodstone was in order to prevent any race from controlling all the magic and such, I am not sure if by intention the bloodstones were also to use the souls of those killed on them to power the soul batteries and keep the Door of Komalie closed (of which may not have even been constructed at that time).

The Seer is not a Mursaat. I quote from the Seer '..you are going to do what my entire race could not... you are going to destroy the Mursaat.'

The Seer speaks of their own race seperately from the Mursaat. Hence, they are not the same (similar though, I'll grant).

The Undead are in Kryta because the Lich is trying to secure the Sceptre of Orr, and taking no chances with losing it. He constantly hunted it with undead, and used the Shining blade as well (2x the chance of success!). Also note the guilds were at war with each other... maybe the Lich wants vengeance on Kryta for what it did to Orr earlier.

Ahh of course "my entire race" i should have remmbered that, still i wish there were some skeletons to fight in the desert and it would make sense if Orr is that close.
what puzzles me is how the Charr could get through the shiverpeaks or the desert to the broken islands, especially without totally destroying Ascalon first

Back then, the broken islands were a solid landmass, connected to the peninsula, of which was also not scorched back then. It was the cataclysm that shattered Orr into a cluster of islands. The shiverpeaks, though, I'm not sure. The grawl made it through to Witman, so it's possible for the Charr to.

Perhaps the charr used portals? Kind of like the titan portals?

Order of events:

1) Charr start the searing.
2) Shortly later, they head out to Kryta and Orr.

-Events below take place in lord knows what order, I'm not sure if they made
it to Orr first or Kryta-

3) Vizier Khilbron intentionally sets off the Cataclysm, destroying Orr, the Orrians, as well as the invading Charr.
4) Saul D'Alessio spreads the word of the Mursaat, the White Mantle is formed.
5) The Mantle drive off the Charr army.

3&5 are at roughly the same time, where 4 is ~50 years before (im pretty sure.) what interests me is why isnt there anything in dwarven tales about the charr crossing the shiverpeaks??

We know little of dwarven culture to begin with...though the dwarves and humans once had "Old Alliances". Whether these were used during the Guild Wars (if so, which kingdom did the Deldrimor Dwarves tema up with?) or some other affairs, I'm not sure. It seems as if the Charr didn't really even harm the dwarves, they mainly seemed to just pass through quickly. I, too, wonder however how the Charr got through the desert without being eaten by a Sand Wurm.

Still, the Charr are one of the more cultured and civilized non-human races, plus they had an entire legion of Charr at their disposal at this time, in comparison to the puny, spread out groups of level 8s fought in the post-searing missions. Plus, again, if we could scarcely overcome the forgotten in a group of six or eight for one mission, a legion could definitely probably clear a significant amount of land. Also, the Charr did not have any ascension matters on their minds to drive them apart, unlike the Elonians.

The manual mentions the Charr swept south after completely devastating Ascalon after the Searing. Most likely they flanked Ascalon and would have come back to obliterate them, if they were not demolished at Orr.

The Charr, as far as I can discern, all came down from the north. They probably went north of the Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta, as it mentions the Mantle drove them back into the north.

yeah i agree

I have a feeling the Searing was the Charr's crusade to free the Titans from their prison. They must have known about the Flameseeker Prophesies themselves and had their own 'Flameseeker' - maybe it was Bonfazz Burntfur (the flire ele boss you kill in Rin), or maybe it was another.

I think they both worshipped Titans and wanted to control them, in the same way fantasy races sometimes summon greater demons in the hope of making powerful allies.

The Searing was a brute force attempt to find the Titan's mythical prison in humanity's hour of weakness. The human kingdoms had been crippled by civil wars - the guild wars - and the charr took advantage to raze the human lands in their search. I don't think the charr knew where the Door of Khomalie was... their plan was just to burn everything in their path until they found it

The odd thing about the Door of Khomalie and the Flameseeker Prophesies is that immediately after the door is "closed", the whole place explodes. The Seals of the soul batteries have not been replaced since the heroes destroyed them - meaning there is nothing to keep the lich's soul imprisoned!

Without any seals, the lich can cheat death (as they do) and invoked a vengeful cataclysm similar to the one he invoked in Orr. This would explain the eruption - a pretty good way of killing the heroes and turning them into a new undead army in the process. The heroes escape the cataclysm, but the Door of Khomalie must have been obliterated in the process.

The chances are fairly good that the Door wasn't a prison, and instead it was a portal to the Titan realm - a little Mursaat experiment gone wrong. Being too powerful for the Mursaat to control, the Door was sealed until they could figure out how to control them.

The destruction of the Door was probably Glint's true aim, as just sealing the door would require a constant stream of sacrifices to keep the soul batteries topped up, and the possible release of the Titans would still be a threat.

Glint and the Forgotten are servants of the gods; it is fair to say that it is the gods who are behind the Prophesy and the destruction of the Door, to put an end to the Bloodstone sacrifices, and to regain their human worshippers from the Mursaat. With the fall of the White Mantle, the Krytan royal family will be free to take over again and the worship of the old gods will be restored (to support the White Mantle's fall, there are quests to restore the royal bloodline in Fishermen's Haven)

The remaining problem is that the world is now FULL of Titans! Titan lords are all over the place commanding their legions, thanks to the Lich's portals.

There are even different types of titan - while some are living rock and magma, others are tree-like. Even though the Door is gone, the Titans could be here to stay.

It still doesn't explain how the Charr first met the Titans though... the only thing I can think of is that they could summon them at some point? Can they still summon Titans? Hmmm

I heard somewhere that in the Flame Temple Corridor or Dragon's Gullet, there are things that appear to be sealed-off titan portals? It's possible, then, that they had summoned them in the past.

The ranger spirits look like that as well... but who knows?

I just read this whole thread through. Very interesting discussion, guys.

I think this is a bit of an issue, Anet's lore on the charr has left us on the edge pondering what the facts are that fill in the gaps.

As far as the issue is concerned, the theory in this post is similar to what I believe. However, there are still several unanswered questions:

1) How did the Charr cross the Shiverpeaks to Kryta and make it past the Deldrimor Dwarves?
If this is true, surely then, the edges of the map that we see in the game are not in fact the edges of the world, and so there is land that stretches north, above the Shiverpeaks.
I read something somewhere a while ago, and went looking for it ingame and in the manual just now. Either it has been deleted, changed, it was my imagination, or I just didn't find it, but I believe it was somewhere along these lines:
'There are two ways to cross the Shiverpeaks. One is Borlis Pass, the other is much farther north, deep in Charr territory.'
When I went searching, the NPCs in the area made no mention of this, but instead they talked of two passes, those being Borlis Pass, and the one further north that heads over Anvil Rock, guarded heavily by Stone Summit.
Confusing.

2) Which way did the Charr go to reach Orr?
The thing is, in-game, after the Searing, you don't actually see very many Charr below the wall. Did they sweep through in those 'two years' between when we were in the Academy Mission and arriving outside the shattered Ascalon City? That could make sense.
The other theory would be that they flanked Ascalon on its eastern edge - but there is no sign of that in Pockmark Flats. They couldn't have gone round the west side, as Rin was still holding against them.
And after that...head down the map from Ascalon. You reach a sort of 'wall of mountains' separating the grey land of Ascalon from the creamy land of the Crystal Desert. Did the Charr head through some kind of tunnel through this wall? And then...did they head through the Crystal Desert itself? There is no evidence I have seen in-game to prove this, I think it is highly unlikely. The only way they could have gone is along the northern, slightly greener, more passable coastline along to Orr. And there, they were wiped out.

3)So...where did the Charr first encounter or come into knowing of the Titans? Did some godly being visit them, and tell them about the titans? Did a titan pop in for a chat through a portal? Did they see the titans in action? Or did they just have sense in their brain from the beginning that the Titans existed, and worshipped them?
And furthermore...who created the Charr in the first place? Surely if the gods made all of Tyria...they would have favoured the great human nations rather than this horde of beasts? Or did they just create a few Charr and leave them to evolve? Or did they create them with the intention of disturbing the human nations?

Regardless of these questions, this is extremely interesting. Keep it up, hopefully from this discussion we can solve these mysteries.

The only definate relationship I know of is the one show in the OP's pic - the burning effigy of a Titan. They've definately seen them in the past.

It could be that the gods have many appearances - we see tham as humans, but they may appear before the Charr as Charr deities. I'll have to read the Tyrian history in the GW booklet that came in the box again... I'm pretty sure humans are not granted any special favour though.

In regards to how the Charr got to Kryta and how the Dwarves survived..
If you look at where Droknar's forge is on the world map, Its far to the south of either pass through the mountains. which would mean the dwarves likely caught wind of the Charr invasion of ascalon and retreated south to Forge and Thunderhead Keep, letting the Charr go on their marry way.
Alternitively, the dwarves, being briliant engeneers, likely collapsed and blocked several key passes to corral the charr through to kryta, with out risking any of their settlements.

Since Lions arch is south of the caves where you exit the shiverpeaks, they likely came from there. Also, there seems to be a northern passage between the the Great Salt Basin and the mountains them selves. If the charr didnt go through the mountains, they went through there.

If the Dwarves did not get out of the way in time, they probobly used their superior knowlage of the mountains and its passes to avoid the charr. since becon's perch and grubles gulch arent very high tech, consisting mostly of Palisaide walls, they support the theory that the dwarves didnt exactly get out of the way in time.

The centaur camps east of beacons pearch are likely new as well.

In regards to how they got to Orr...

They likely sailed to Orr from the coasts around Lions Arch. I believe Ive seen Npcs refer to the Charr useing slaves, so its likely they enslaved a number of Krytans to sail them to Orr.

If they sail, the probobly swept through the desert like they did in ascalon. Bruttaly, quickly, and suddenly. Being led by a divine mission, they would not have been slowed down by much. If the charr went through the desert, they probobly viewed it as a test by the gods.
"And thus sayith our hairy lord.. 'I am your god! attack Orr! head south from ascalon throgh the Desert! if you dont make it, I will personaly obliterate your race because you are unworthy of my gaze!....

...Fear me!' Char bible, cave 5, wall 4."

In regards to the Viseirs plan to take over Tyria....

Our freind, the Lich was probobly behind the scenes controlling everything from the Charr invasion to the Mantle's rise to power and The Shining Blade's knowlage of Mantle acctivities. He likely, useing the abilities granted to him by being a lich, conjured an image of a Titain, and incited the Charr invasion. Once the charr approached Orr, the Vizeir "aided" the defeat of any military force that the Orrians had with his magic. (again, he can move him self at will, make you move and attack faster, and change form, im sure he helped the Charr alot, if not just by intimidateing the Orrians with his Titain illusion). Once the Charr approached the capital of Orr, he patitioned the king to grant him access to the Scepter of Orr, in order to try his "Trump Card." Seeing no other option, the king granted access to the scepter and the rest is a bloodstained history.

For the record, cairn is a pile of stones.

Ranger spirits look like Redwood Shepherds/Oakhearts/Entangling Roots. Think of the enemies I just mentioned as tree ents. The spirits are technically spirits of the ents...spirits of nature. While they are a tad similar to the Titans, the Titans walk upright. The Risen Ashen Hulks DO look like these spirits/ents, in fact, it's the same model, just bigger and with an ash skin.

Titans have three "legs", the spirits have four I think...think of them like apes or something, hunching down on all four, and they hurl their projectile from one of the front legs.

The charr passed south to Orr over land. The little booklet mentions the Charr assault on Orr did not take place until after the searing. After the devastation, there were abandoned places in the wall that the main charr force was able to traverse, and then close on Orr (which we already know had a pathway to, since humans travelled).

The Vizier did not become a Lich until after the Cataclysm. I stand by my opinion that he did not intend the Cataclysm to happen. His back was clearly against the wall, or else he would not have obliterated so much at such a risk. The scroll was forbidden and he did not have access to it, so I doubt he knew exactly what would happen. Nowhere in the prophecy does it say he had to be dead, and the Orrian army 'was the equal of any.' If he had been planning it from before, I'd think he's stay in human form with the sceptre and an Orrian army. Since he did not make any notion of going after the Titans, most likely the Charr simple overwhelmed him and as a desperation move, destroyed Orr. After he awoke, he eventually learned of the prophecies (most likely through allying with the Seer, who harbours an intense hatred of the Mursaat that guard the gate), and together plotted the downfall of the Mursaat, and subsequently all of Tyria. The seer too was misled by the Lich, and probably did not realize how far it would go (while they did know of the Titans, they aided the Lich's cause). Once the Lich revealed his full intentions, only then does the Seer try to fight him. Notice that the seer and Lich have the same attack (dark damage from their hands). Maybe the Seer's race is actually an ancient Necromancer race?

If we take that rather wild assumption, we can draw a new story. After finding the Seer (now being assumed to be a necromantic race or so), the Seer taught him how the whole becoming a Lich could be done, and the prophecies. From there, the story unfolded, and the Lich betrayed the Seer.

Well, avarre, while your story sells closely to what is put in the manual, you have to remember, the viseir betrayed you, the shining blade, and essentialy everyone he allied with. Its not a far cry for him to be betraying and schemeing long before our parts in the story.

Also, the manual may say one thing, but its a historical account and historical accounts are not always 100% true.

Im not saying your compleately wrong, heck im not saying im compleately right. all im saying is you shouldent discount someones take on historical events just by a few lines of debateable text (expecaly in a game manual where someone is trying to avoid spoilers like the plauge)

lol :P

i dont think he knew how titan look like.
or do u think they have photo-bands with pictures of them in it with the description: this is the owning titan, he owns ur ass, u can control him like that. conjuring an image of it works like that:...

well...
i think he didnt know how they look like before he saw them...

(the underlined and italic parts are just to seperate the two
"statements" )

Do we know if the Vizier even had the Scepter of Orr in his possession back then to begin with?

"A sight for sore eyes. One of the greatest treasures of my now-ruined home."
He most likely means Orr, not his royal quarters.

How on earth was the scepter taken all the way to Kryta and ended up in that tomb? That still remains unknown, perhaps it buried itself? Or maybe Glint whisked it away (like at the end of Hell's).

Most likely in desperation, the Vizier unleashed the magic of a Forbidden Scroll. However, the scepter was located in Orr. I can imagine a plaque about it in an Orrian Museum.

"He who wields the Scepter shall wield power eternal, as he commands destruction in its purest form - the Titans."

Thusly, we do not know if he had intentionally started the Cataclysm or not. In the end, the dark magic of the Cataclysm had corrupted the souls of the Orrians so greatly that they could not find rest, and were brought back as undead. The Lich, being the most intelligent (why? Perhaps as the caster of the cataclysm, he retained his memories or something, that or he was already the most powerful mage in all of Orr, which in its own way helped him keep his memories.), used the undead to search for the Scepter. We do not know how he learned of the Flameseeker Prophecies, for only the powerful beings (Glint, Seers, Mursaat) know of it in detail. Orr was near the Crystal Desert...perhaps a vision of Glint was conjured to speak of that which would fortell Orr's doom...and tread off-topic onto the story of the prophecy.

The mursaat and seers are not really good or bad. Think of them simply as factions. The Mursaat must stop the Titans from overrunning Tyria, yet in turn, they slaughter (well, their worshippers slaughter) countless innocents. The Seers seem more into just seeking vengeance on the Mursaat for reasons nobody knows. The Titans are not the main focus of the prophecy for the Seers and Mursaat.

Meerak The Shouter knew of the prophecy, either he was enlightened (in which case, perhaps Lichie was enlightened, too), or, being an ex-scribe, he uncovered a physical story about the prophecy, and in that case, so did Khilbron, but both kept it a secret.

We are still lacking much information about Orr. Since Arah was the holy city, and former home of the Gods, there are many supernatural ways in which Khilbron may have learned of the prophecy.

Either way, he began planning and planning. Evennia was in desperation to find allies in the losing battle against the Mantle, so I guess it's kind of understandable that she trusted a suspicious fellow.

ok my take on the charr invasion of kryta this is my thoughts as a runner you leave ascalon head to the mountans you can avoid every dwarven town and out post in its full and head to the green lands of kryta it is able to be done and with a force like you can move quickly and with out being cought,
hence the dwarvs (sp) not knowing or mentioning anything about them im looking in to a feasable way to get to orr at the moment ill post more of what i think and i know i cant spell dont flame

Quite true. However more of my opinions of the Vizier's motives are drawn from an examination of him. He was just a human when he read it, and I seriously doubt he had everything planned entirely.

Evidence "It worked! Just as the prophecy said, it worked!" - the Vizier, upon taking control of the Titans

This tells me he was never really sure about what would happen. The sceptre's use was probably vaguely referenced in the prophecies only, hence his exuberence that it worked. Therefore I seriously doubt this:

It wouldn't be so clear in a prophecy, as Glint quotes a part of it after the
Vizier died. The sceptre could easily have been blasted that distance. Either way, if the Vizier knew he'd need the sceptre, he'd probably go get it if it was already gone. If he had it, he wouldn't have wasted the time to blow everything up - he would have left Orr instead. Therefore I draw the conclusion that the devastation of the Cataclysm was unintentional. The Lich transformation (Seer theory) is a different story.

It is possible he met up with the Seer at a later date. What is certain, is that the two have similar goals. The Seer knows about the Titans, and I wouldn't doubt they were the one that told the Vizier about the 'allies' behind the door. Since Glint gave the prophecy, I doubt that the Vizier could have read about it. It seems more passed around by word of mouth, and I doubt anyone really understood what it were about. Remember, very few knew about the existance of the Door itself. Only those involved in the Mursaat wars, and Glint knew. So someone told the Lich about it, and I stand by what I said in that it was the Seer.

well... seems your idea works far better than mine. :P

(still, mine is so much cooler than the acctual events! XD)

Well if we were going for all out coolness...

I would have the lich rise up, then the seer come out and challenge him to a boxing match, then when both are busy fighting, Mad King Thorn would come out, kill them both instantly, and explode. After which the Titans would be beaten back by a legion of Gretchies shouting 'ZERG RUSH!!'

That would be cool

But it would make for a terrible game

on topic, Vizeir to me, seems like the kind of baddy that would be pulling strings on every event in the world though. I mean come on, he can teleport anywhere he wants, change into a human, and enchant you with some hella good powers.

I still stand by my theorie that Orr is not on the Tyrian map, but is some distance North of Kryta.
I mean think about it; it's deeply unlikely that the Charr, a race accustomed to fire and wasteland, could traverse the shiverpeaks whilst still maintaining their flame altars and a supply chain for their massive force.
What about the desert? i hear you say. Well for one thing they would have to go through Ascalon and i severely doubt there would still be as much of it left if they had.
So ultimately it is more fesible (hope thats how it's spelt) to have Orr north of Tyria, not only to explain the charr being able to get there, but also to explain the undead insurgence into Kryta and the possibility of any sort of land conflict during the Guild Wars between Kryta and Orr.

so there.

Sorry i havent had anything to say about the Lich/Khilbron as im incredibly non-commital and have only recently got to the Ring of Fire despite having the game for 5 months :P

But... its mentioned... that Orr is in the desert there...

The vizier mentions when you take the boat to the Crystal desert, something along the lines of 'we make for the shores of my home'.

The little booklety thing says the charr went through ascalon, anyway. While not very detailed, what it says is the truth (factually, anyway).

The Charr lands are likely north of the Shiverpeaks, they invaded South into Kryta, and were driven back that way. They're probably based from a large wasteland in the north, around the Bloodstone of Destruction (it's not accounted for, and would explain the Titans being there and the power of the Searing).

Well, if Orr was north of Kryta, wouldn't they have to traverse Charr territory to have their Guild Wars?

Ok, to help with prove my probably-wrong-but-still-vaguely-interesting point
i have constructed a crude map in order to exlain the practicality of my theories.

Orr is most definately not where you've drawn it...

Why not?
It fits!

For the one millionth time, Orr was on/near the scorched peninsula adjacent to the Crystal Desert.



The red arrows represent how the Charr attacked. As suggested from a past post, it makes more sense if the Charr hired Krytan slaves to sail them to Orr, rather than go through the Desert and get eaten by Sand Wurms.

Orr was in the middle of the broken islands. Look in the centre and you see that the sea is light blue which means land is quite close to it.

The lore booklet that comes with the game, The GuildWars Manuscripts, states that Orr was on "a penninsula south of Ascalon and west of the Crystal Desert" (page 38, paragraph 2).

Right! It's time to pick up the manual!

This quote from the lore manual completely eliminates the theory of the Charr sailing to Orr:

'The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah.'

Also:

'they swept through the wall and moved on to Orr. The surviving humans of Ascalon have since retaken the wall and have held it against periodic attacks'

This indicates that in the two years between the Searing and when we actually appear in post-searing, the Charr army must have completely overwhelmed Ascalon's defences and swept through the breach in the wall, moving south and leaving the scarred landscape behind them. More, smaller waves of Charr are now being held off by the humans who have retaken the wall. In Orr, the Charr army was completely obliterated.

Also, in the manual there are repeated references to 'the beasts from the north'. This suggests that the land above Ascalon is not their immediate homeland, but just an area that they sort of settled in and made their own when they invaded Ascalon. The real homeland, surely, must lie above the current map, enabling the Charr to also come down from the north on Kryta.

However, this causes some confusion. Take this quote from the manual:

'Kryta and the While Mantle managed to push out the Charr, forcing them back over the mountains.'

The Charr must have come over the Shiverpeaks to reach Kryta, but in what direction is a mystery.

Furthermore, if you look at the game world map, there is a bay that looks almost like a flooded river which stretches as far as the Amnoon Oasis and into the Shiverpeaks. If this had been so when the Charr came, they would have been forced to cross the desert unless they had knowledge building rafts/ships to cross the sea, which I highly doubt.

So, I propose that the sinking of Orr raised the entire sea level. This caused the flooding of lowlands further away from Orr, including the area near Amnoon Oasis and a particular river coming from the Shiverpeaks. This would mean that the Charr could easily have moved around the desert before this land was flooded.

My overall thoughts of this post are illustrated in the picture below. Do not pay attention to the colours, just the mere outlines and basic shapes. All the water on the inside of the line I have drawn around Orr was land before the Cataclysm, but for a river coming from the Shiverpeaks that was of course much thinner until it was flooded. The red arrows show Charr routes.

Ah now that makes sense, much more than my rubbish anyway :3 The idea of the land actually changing on that scale did not occur to me, i officially retract my theorie in acceptance of this one.

Qust a thing on the Charr invasion of Kryta, King Symeon i would draw the shiverpeaks all the way up in your map, the charr lands on the right above ascalon. As for crossing into Kryta, there is a NPC dwarf that speaks of the TWO passes through the shiverpeaks, Borliss pass and one north deep in the Charrs territory. It was this pass that was used to sweep across then down into Kryta.

Canadian Bacon, could you perhaps copy that Charr invasion sequence you described in the Third Lore Project into here? Since so much has been discussed about the Charr and their invasion in here, it would make sense to continue discussing such things here (though of course they can be discussed elsewhere too).