In response to the monk love thread...
Why do we have this reliance on monks? Can we not go into a mission with a N/Mo and a E/Mo and expect to come out the other side? Have you never taken a full team of 8 rangers though ring of fire?
Why the dependence?
Personally, ive been a part of a team thats finished Iron Mines, and Ring of Fire without a monk tagging along. It can be done, people. Stance tank farmers, armour of earth/kinetic armour eles can take on half the game by themselves.
Wouldn't it be cool to see a full contingent of blood spike necros able to take out the Lich?
The Challenge:: Find a nice hard level - Thunderhead, Abaddon's Mouth, the Underworld. Get a team together with some self heals, potentially a seconday monk, who has plently of offensive spells too. See if you can complete the mission without a monk, then report back here.
Are primary monks -really- that necessary?
Le Grinder
calamitykell
Pre-conceived notion that healing damage is always better than preventing/avoiding it. Besides "zomg, monk can heal, lets aggro 2x as much to maek it fastar!!11".
Fake edit: people are retards
Fake edit: people are retards
wolfblade1
'missions' are easy, try doing FoW/UW or Tomb with no primary monk
Le Grinder
Well, i've finished Tombs plenty of times in spike teams when the monk has dropped.
Also, the more attacks/interrupts a team is doing the less damage the enemy is going to do, and they will be around for a shorter time...
Also, the more attacks/interrupts a team is doing the less damage the enemy is going to do, and they will be around for a shorter time...
Poison Ivy
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Originally Posted by wolfblade1
'missions' are easy, try doing FoW/UW or Tomb with no primary monk
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UW - 4 man trapper team
Sagius Truthbarron
I wouldn't say a primary monk is always better than a secondairy in PvE. One that knows how to -play- monk is better most of the time than one who -is- a monk 
I actually think a Necromancer/Monk is better than a primary monk in some cases.
I think, though, that the E/mo healer is a terrible idea sometimes. It has basically no energy managment in most cases, and if it does, sacrifices cast time or safety for the enrgy ability. (Glyphs or Ether Prodigy). The whole "I can heal great for a good 50 seconds!" thing is just.. Stupid. E/mo Protection is a different story.
I actually think a Necromancer/Monk is better than a primary monk in some cases.
I think, though, that the E/mo healer is a terrible idea sometimes. It has basically no energy managment in most cases, and if it does, sacrifices cast time or safety for the enrgy ability. (Glyphs or Ether Prodigy). The whole "I can heal great for a good 50 seconds!" thing is just.. Stupid. E/mo Protection is a different story.
coolsti
Its definitely hard to get by without one or two primary monks, because the primary monk skill adds so much to their healing.
But lets face it, people depend all too much on monks. It makes me laugh when I hear groups being formed for whatever mission or farming location stating that they need 3 monks. If they need 3 monks, they are not playing well. 3 monks means more healing but much less damage dealing.
Then there are players who refuse to take a bit of self healing with them. Like I was out with a ranger friend, I was ranger also. Our entire party got killed except for us two in FOW. We also got damaged quite heavily running away from siege worms. I applied Troll Unguent to heal myself but noticed that my party friend's health remained very low. So I asked, uh, don't you have Troll Unguent? Reply: never take it. Gak! I mean, when I play ranger, I really need healing by the monks because I tend to get in the front lines once in a while; but at least I try to keep myself healed as much as possible.
Then there are the players that refuse to move their characters back out of the danger zone when the situation looks hopeless. When monks run out of energy or when they can't keep up with the damage being done, its time for everyone to abandon the dead and retreat. However, most PUGs just don't know how to do this.
And then there are the players who don't realize that the henchy monks are there to fill in when no human monk is available.
But lets face it, people depend all too much on monks. It makes me laugh when I hear groups being formed for whatever mission or farming location stating that they need 3 monks. If they need 3 monks, they are not playing well. 3 monks means more healing but much less damage dealing.
Then there are players who refuse to take a bit of self healing with them. Like I was out with a ranger friend, I was ranger also. Our entire party got killed except for us two in FOW. We also got damaged quite heavily running away from siege worms. I applied Troll Unguent to heal myself but noticed that my party friend's health remained very low. So I asked, uh, don't you have Troll Unguent? Reply: never take it. Gak! I mean, when I play ranger, I really need healing by the monks because I tend to get in the front lines once in a while; but at least I try to keep myself healed as much as possible.
Then there are the players that refuse to move their characters back out of the danger zone when the situation looks hopeless. When monks run out of energy or when they can't keep up with the damage being done, its time for everyone to abandon the dead and retreat. However, most PUGs just don't know how to do this.
And then there are the players who don't realize that the henchy monks are there to fill in when no human monk is available.
Silent Kitty
I like to see that. 
You know that all melee and ranged suck at staying alive. Without a good monk, you have no one to gather your bodies after you've been creamed
You know that all melee and ranged suck at staying alive. Without a good monk, you have no one to gather your bodies after you've been creamed
KvanCetre
Yeah secondary healers are great if you don't care at all about Divine Favor...
Hex Nexus
Well first off, Monks have Divine Favor, boosting their heals. They also, have head-piece and runes to boost their skills even further. This is not to say another caster such as, N/Mo E/Mo, would not be competent. It just means that monks have the superiour heals.
Sagius Truthbarron
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Originally Posted by coolsti
Then there are the players that refuse to move their characters back out of the danger zone when the situation looks hopeless. |
Reminds me of a custom game my friend and I play for Warcraft 3. Its based on Resident Evil and has completely all the same puzzles and stuff. Sometimes we take real people to play with us and continually tell them how stupid it is not to backup when Zombies get to close to you, as letting them pound on you for too long is unneccisary and often leads to death.. Not to mention a waste of healing supplies.
Well, nobody ever listens and for a 5 hour game, the longest we have ever had anyone last was 1 hour
Too bad its not so easy to zone back and kick the people who wouln't listen in FoW/UW.
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Originally Posted by Hex Nexus
It just means that monks have the superiour heals.
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dont feel no pain
people dont respect monks >_<
Le Grinder
Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.
And each class has their own benefits -
Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks.
Energy and E's - no comment needed
Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc...
As for runes, well, the other classes can take superior runes to help them deal more damage, so that they will never have to heal as much. Or to lay down wards, or weaken/slow enemies, or to backfire/interrupt their casters. To prevent, rather than cure.
And each class has their own benefits -
Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks.
Energy and E's - no comment needed
Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc...
As for runes, well, the other classes can take superior runes to help them deal more damage, so that they will never have to heal as much. Or to lay down wards, or weaken/slow enemies, or to backfire/interrupt their casters. To prevent, rather than cure.
TimberOwl
Ive been through THK (Not bonus) without any monks, had 2 nuke, 2 SS, 1 w/mo (With no healing except mending), myself as w/n, and two rangers using traps.
Most stuff can be done, just make sure you all have some form of self heal, work as a unit, not as a rabble, and most of all, talk to each other.
Most stuff can be done, just make sure you all have some form of self heal, work as a unit, not as a rabble, and most of all, talk to each other.
Le Grinder
2 SS's? <3
Must have been wonderful
Must have been wonderful
TimberOwl
Yeah we kicked ass, totally. Mind you, 5 of us were guildies, which made a big difference instead of PUG.
Crazy SMS guild....gonna get themself killed one day
Crazy SMS guild....gonna get themself killed one day
xxSilhouette
They aren't needed for missions really...But they are really helpful, its nice to have a really good monk or two in your group so when you are fighting you don't have to worry about your health so much, Plus i notice when being in a group for a mission without a monk if someone dies, or if a couple of people die, it seems the people that are alive dont have rez.
TimberOwl
Oh yeah, if you want high risk factor, don't take a monk, but being primarily a monk myself alot of the time,most groups need one. The majority of people can't actually step outside of a city without a monk..
Esprit
You could make the same argument, asking whether primary X profession is necessary, for any of the current professions. You can probably build a team to compensate for what you lack.
And so the love/hate war of monks continues.
And so the love/hate war of monks continues.
Minus Sign
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Originally Posted by Le Grinder
The Challenge...Get a team together with some self heals, potentially a seconday monk, who has plently of offensive spells too.
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Fact is, the vast majority of PvE builds out there have no self healing ability, relying completely on "someone else" to worry about their HP. Add to that, when people group, the main reason they take Mo as their alt proffession is for hard rez and ONLY hard rez.
Its not that people don't respect monks per se. Its that people don't respect the need to keep their own HP up.
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| Most stuff can be done, just make sure you all have some form of self heal, work as a unit, not as a rabble, and most of all, talk to each other. |
And theres the rub. When things go south, its up to someone to heal you. If you can self heal after fighting yourself into a corner, all the more to you and tell me yer build! But if you can't, and the healer can't, monk or alt monk, who gets the blame?
Be honest. How many people spam "Why didn't I heal myself???" in the chat text when they die?
Its not a reliance on monks thats the problem with PUGs. Its dependence on others.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by Le Grinder
Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.
And each class has their own benefits - Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks. Energy and E's - no comment needed Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc... As for runes, well, the other classes can take superior runes to help them deal more damage, so that they will never have to heal as much. Or to lay down wards, or weaken/slow enemies, or to backfire/interrupt their casters. To prevent, rather than cure. |
A necro is going to have more energy because things are dying. But they're only healing 60 per cast. For arguments sake, lets make it heal other with a lovely recharge of 3 seconds. 151 Healing. Divine favor would have brought that up to 179 and gone to hit orison for another 98. 277 healed out of 15 energy with two spells cast as opposed to 211.
Say we add a third heal to this wonderful mess (zoomj, three heals in one battle?) Dwayna's, which heals for a measly 51 and for the hell of it, lets have an enchantment on this person cause that wammo loves his mending. 68 heal from a necro. Boom, 106 from the monk. Now your necro has healed a total of 279, three casts and it just 2 health better than the monk's 2 with divine favor. It's still 114 short of what the monk could bust out in three moves.
Now for a fourth spell. Getting to 152 short. Fifth, 190 short. Sixth, 228 short. Your tank is now dying because you can't heal him fast enough. No, well of blood isn't going to outheal that damage. Your tank is now dead. The monsters are coming for you.
It's okay though, you have full energy.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Its not a reliance on monks thats the problem with PUGs. Its dependence on others.
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Zakarr
Typical PvE PUGs:
Party has 8 of 8 players.
Random player1: "zomggm, we don't have any monks!!!"
Random player2: "kick two! get monks!"
Leader: "we can survive without monks besides there is no monks in here"
Random player3: "take alesia and lina!"
Random player1: "im leaving if you don't get monks!11!1"
Leader: "everyone just bring some healing skill and be more careful"
Random player4: "we have more offensive power because there is no monks so enemies die faster and we get less damage because of that"
Random player1: "you are n00bzz!!!"
*Random player1 leaves*
*Random player2 leaves*
*Random player3 leaves*
Ascalon and Northern Shiverpeaks are the only areas where I have managed to get full PUG party easily without primary monks. Everywhere else they either demand monks or leave when we are doing missions.
Party has 8 of 8 players.
Random player1: "zomggm, we don't have any monks!!!"
Random player2: "kick two! get monks!"
Leader: "we can survive without monks besides there is no monks in here"
Random player3: "take alesia and lina!"
Random player1: "im leaving if you don't get monks!11!1"
Leader: "everyone just bring some healing skill and be more careful"
Random player4: "we have more offensive power because there is no monks so enemies die faster and we get less damage because of that"
Random player1: "you are n00bzz!!!"
*Random player1 leaves*
*Random player2 leaves*
*Random player3 leaves*
Ascalon and Northern Shiverpeaks are the only areas where I have managed to get full PUG party easily without primary monks. Everywhere else they either demand monks or leave when we are doing missions.
Silent Kitty
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
It's okay though, you have full energy. |
Raxxman
Monks aren't needed, no one class is needed.
Still having a warrior to take heat off squishys is handy yah?
Still having a warrior to take heat off squishys is handy yah?
Le Grinder
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Lets take DF and HP both at 12. That's +38 healing each spell cast. Orison is going to heal for 60 and divine favour is going to bring it up to +98 heal. That's for 5 energy. One cast.
A necro is going to have more energy because things are dying. But they're only healing 60 per cast. For arguments sake, lets make it heal other with a lovely recharge of 3 seconds. 151 Healing. Divine favor would have brought that up to 179 and gone to hit orison for another 98. 277 healed out of 15 energy with two spells cast as opposed to 211. Say we add a third heal to this wonderful mess (zoomj, three heals in one battle?) Dwayna's, which heals for a measly 51 and for the hell of it, lets have an enchantment on this person cause that wammo loves his mending. 68 heal from a necro. Boom, 106 from the monk. Now your necro has healed a total of 279, three casts and it just 2 health better than the monk's 2 with divine favor. It's still 114 short of what the monk could bust out in three moves. Now for a fourth spell. Getting to 152 short. Fifth, 190 short. Sixth, 228 short. Your tank is now dying because you can't heal him fast enough. No, well of blood isn't going to outheal that damage. Your tank is now dead. The monsters are coming for you. It's okay though, you have full energy. |
So a Nerc with all these marvelous healing spells is just sitting around not using them, with full energy? Sounds like someone isn't playing their character properly.
Another scenario: what happens if this damage is being dealt by two attaxes, or by 3 grasps? The monk can sit there, casting their orisons and heal others, healing a good, say 30% more than the Nerc could? What happens when the Nerc casts enfeeble, or shadow of fear? Suddenly all the haling they have to do is reduced to 33% of what they had to do. Or to 17% if both are cast. Protective spirit could be used as a comparitive measure, but thats only going to last 10 seconds as opposed to 30, for the energy cost.
I'd have to say that from my experice, laying down shadow of fear on the fist and hand titans as they pop up is the most effective damage reduction (healing countermeasure) you can do.
(Also, if the tank dies, thats another 10 energy to heal everyone else that little bit more
)
FalconDance
For some missions, monks are not needed if the party works well together. Yesterday my ele, a warrior and a mesmer (all around lvl 14 and none of us monk-secondaries) did the mission and bonus at D'Alessio by ourselves with very little difficulty---after the two monks had dropped us (one went the wrong way and bitched when he died and the lvl 20 bitched we were n00bs and left) very early in. Of course, since we finished after they left, who were the n00bs?
Another party I was in were all casters and we tromped through the Maguuma with only a little difficulty. Based on that experience, would you say that warrior primaries really arent' needed in PvE?
Depends on where you are, what you're going against, and how well your team works together, I'd say. I've been in groups with three healers who couldn't keep themselves healed least of all the party---and I've been in parties with a monk-secondary who was very capable of keeping the entire group in good health.
Another party I was in were all casters and we tromped through the Maguuma with only a little difficulty. Based on that experience, would you say that warrior primaries really arent' needed in PvE?
Depends on where you are, what you're going against, and how well your team works together, I'd say. I've been in groups with three healers who couldn't keep themselves healed least of all the party---and I've been in parties with a monk-secondary who was very capable of keeping the entire group in good health.
Minus Sign
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Yes. How dare anyone think that this isn't a game meant for a team and everyone should look out for themselves instead of their team.
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Your right. You're absolutely right. GW is a team game, which means you are a part of a team and so, responsible to that team to do your part.
If its your turn at bat, are you going to blame the guy still warming the bench because you fouled out? Thats what people are doing to healers, no matter the class.
Accept the consquences of your own mistakes and learn from them. Bring the right skills to help yourself and better the group in the doing. And if you can't do this, don't demand it of others.
I stand by the statement you quoted. When you rely on someone, you trust them to do their part, so you can do yours the best you can. Reliance is not a problem, no matter the proffession.
When you reach a point of dependency though, you're crossing a line. You've lost the ability to survive on your own skill, another core of Guild Wars.
Why does my monk have to be your crutch whenever your Whammo agroes two mob groups with no damage reduction skills? By proxy, why does your necro "have to" bring Blood Ritual for my monks mana?
FalconDance
Minus Sign---agree whole heartedly! That's why my ele and warrior "wastes" (in others' words) a slot for her Troll Unguent, etc. Everyone should at least try to keep themselves going........
Last time my monk Cait was out with a group (helping a friend in the Maguuma), I told everyone that I expected a few things of them: warriors to have some sort of aggro control (they didn't but learned really quickly when I slowed healing on them), elementalists (any caster, really) are not tanks so don't run up and stand in the aggro (she was my personal mana sink for a while until she died a few times) and self-heal is a good thing......especially if your monk is running from the triple aggro the tanks just let through their ranks.
And having a necro battery around is nice, but I've found that few know how to use it efficiently or properly. I've only have the pleasure of working with *one* who understood the skill, and that was in the Fire Islands where it really counted.
Last time my monk Cait was out with a group (helping a friend in the Maguuma), I told everyone that I expected a few things of them: warriors to have some sort of aggro control (they didn't but learned really quickly when I slowed healing on them), elementalists (any caster, really) are not tanks so don't run up and stand in the aggro (she was my personal mana sink for a while until she died a few times) and self-heal is a good thing......especially if your monk is running from the triple aggro the tanks just let through their ranks.
And having a necro battery around is nice, but I've found that few know how to use it efficiently or properly. I've only have the pleasure of working with *one* who understood the skill, and that was in the Fire Islands where it really counted
.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Me first, you when I can. If you die, tough cookies, but if I can't help it without killing myself, better one of us die than both.
Your right. You're absolutely right. GW is a team game, which means you are a part of a team and so, responsible to that team to do your part. If its your turn at bat, are you going to blame the guy still warming the bench because you fouled out? Thats what people are doing to healers, no matter the class. Accept the consquences of your own mistakes and learn from them. Bring the right skills to help yourself and better the group in the doing. And if you can't do this, don't demand it of others. I stand by the statement you quoted. When you rely on someone, you trust them to do their part, so you can do yours the best you can. Reliance is not a problem, no matter the proffession. When you reach a point of dependency though, you're crossing a line. You've lost the ability to survive on your own skill, another core of Guild Wars. Why does my monk have to be your crutch whenever your Whammo agroes two mob groups with no damage reduction skills? By proxy, why does your necro "have to" bring Blood Ritual for my monks mana? |
As for Le Grinder, I never meant to put it forth that a monk is absolutely mandatory, but more that divine favor is superior to soul reaping when it comes to healing. Sure, over time, a necro has the energy to outcast a monk in battle, but monks give more bang for their buck, so to speak. Casting takes time, and when a monk can be on par with a necro with two casts while the necro casts three, then you have something good there.
Casting takes time, and if a lot of damage is being dealt fast, healing spells aren't exactly the fastest. You want the most you can get out of each cast and a necro just cannot compete.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
I've been trying to bring along Ether Feast more often lately, I just hope factions gives Mesmers another self heal. Ours is currently probably the worst one.
As for the topic: Are monks neccissary. Yes. Why? Because they are there. It doesnt matter if you can do the missions and quests without them, it matters that they are there to be taken into the party and make everything go smoother. Every single class has that exact same job. Make the task go smoother.
Monks have 3 possible roles. And with all classes they do their job better than what other classes with them as secondary could do it. I've also only seen mention made of Healer Monks in this thread and nothing about Prot or Smite.
As for the topic: Are monks neccissary. Yes. Why? Because they are there. It doesnt matter if you can do the missions and quests without them, it matters that they are there to be taken into the party and make everything go smoother. Every single class has that exact same job. Make the task go smoother.
Monks have 3 possible roles. And with all classes they do their job better than what other classes with them as secondary could do it. I've also only seen mention made of Healer Monks in this thread and nothing about Prot or Smite.
KvanCetre
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Originally Posted by Le Grinder
Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.
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12 healing prayers - 151
16 healing prayers - 190
Divine favor added in, lets go with 13 in that(39)
151 vs 229
Its a difference of 78 points of healing. That can be a pretty big save...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Le Grinder
And each class has their own benefits -
Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks. Energy and E's - no comment needed Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc... |
Effigy
Maybe people shouldn't rely on monks as much as they do, but it stands to reason that members of a group are better off specializing in what they do than trying to be a jack-of-all trades. Why should everyone in the group waste attributes, skill slots, and possibly a secondary profession for self-heals when one or two group members can just specialize in healing and everyone else focus on offense?
That's not to say that self-heals are bad, as long as you don't compromise your strengths to get them. Rangers are a good example--most ranger will have points in WS for preps and whatnot anyway, so taking Troll Ungent is no big deal. Same with warriors bringing Healing Signet from the Tactics line. However, not all professions and builds are that easy to fit self-heals into, and expecting them to do it simply so you don't have to take a real monk with you makes little sense to me.
That's not to say that self-heals are bad, as long as you don't compromise your strengths to get them. Rangers are a good example--most ranger will have points in WS for preps and whatnot anyway, so taking Troll Ungent is no big deal. Same with warriors bringing Healing Signet from the Tactics line. However, not all professions and builds are that easy to fit self-heals into, and expecting them to do it simply so you don't have to take a real monk with you makes little sense to me.
FalconDance
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Monks have 3 possible roles. And with all classes they do their job better than what other classes with them as secondary could do it. I've also only seen mention made of Healer Monks in this thread and nothing about Prot or Smite. |
). The last time I went out with a prot-boon monk, she wasn't able to use her skills efficiently (for whatever reason) and ended up switching to heal.
calamitykell
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
It's okay though, you have full energy.
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Just further proof that preventing damage is superior to healing damage.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by calamitykell
And after the Warrior dies, who's gonna heal the Elementalist that everything is attacking? The Monk who's down to 5 enegy from using all those heals on the Warrior? Sure, go ahead.
Just further proof that preventing damage is superior to healing damage. |
kryshnysh
My first character to finish the game was an E/Mo. I healed the party through THK, the Ring of Fire, and Hell's Precipice as the only healer on the team (everyone had to be a bit more self-sufficient, but even THK was comparatively easy with a good enough group). I was our healer, and a monk can do that better.
You don't need a healer on your team if you have a proper setup, but for the average/typical PuG, you need a monk (or healer/proter) a good bit more than you need a tank or anyone else.
Can you design around this? Yes.
Is it going to work well with said average/typical PuG? No.
I gave up going healer with my N/Mo, and Me/Mo (later characters, have more friends, guildies, and experience), I did fine healing, but its not the same as having a monk, and I was better suited for other roles. The only reason I can find to have N/Mo or Me/Mo healers is if you don't have enough people who do like healing (and would prefer it over using henchies) or really like the challenge.
You don't need a healer on your team if you have a proper setup, but for the average/typical PuG, you need a monk (or healer/proter) a good bit more than you need a tank or anyone else.
Can you design around this? Yes.
Is it going to work well with said average/typical PuG? No.
I gave up going healer with my N/Mo, and Me/Mo (later characters, have more friends, guildies, and experience), I did fine healing, but its not the same as having a monk, and I was better suited for other roles. The only reason I can find to have N/Mo or Me/Mo healers is if you don't have enough people who do like healing (and would prefer it over using henchies) or really like the challenge.
floplag
for me this is just more fuel to the fire of a serious lack of creative thinking in gaming these days. the vast majority of players go with the same cookie cutter builds and group makeups. i believe that every class has its role and purpose.
monks have created alot of ill will towards them with arrogance and gaul to actually charge to help a mission ... but not all are guilty of such acts.
but the bigger issue is that all you see, over and over, are the same crutches being used, and the same boring setups in use.. and little ability to actually think. does any group really NEED 2 monks ... doubtful. especially with the overabundance of Wammos out there that can take care of themselves in large part if they acutally think.
some places, if your not a monk, or wammo .. of some specific other build ... you cant even get a mission. going through the game as a mesmer showed me alot about the complete lack of creativity. i struggled to get groups much of the time .. yet when i did, things went so much easier.. usually attributed to grerat healing or wammo damage without realizing the complete shutdown of the bosses bu my simple little mesmer
personally, i like nothing better than to see a group of as many classes as possible ... makes for a helluva ride !
monks have created alot of ill will towards them with arrogance and gaul to actually charge to help a mission ... but not all are guilty of such acts.
but the bigger issue is that all you see, over and over, are the same crutches being used, and the same boring setups in use.. and little ability to actually think. does any group really NEED 2 monks ... doubtful. especially with the overabundance of Wammos out there that can take care of themselves in large part if they acutally think.
some places, if your not a monk, or wammo .. of some specific other build ... you cant even get a mission. going through the game as a mesmer showed me alot about the complete lack of creativity. i struggled to get groups much of the time .. yet when i did, things went so much easier.. usually attributed to grerat healing or wammo damage without realizing the complete shutdown of the bosses bu my simple little mesmer
personally, i like nothing better than to see a group of as many classes as possible ... makes for a helluva ride !
Jenosavel
I think a really important point was brought up above in that yes, self-healing is nice to have on as many people as can take it. However, if a character is sacrificing their other usefullness to the team to bring a self-heal then the team is worse shape than if they had foregone the self-heals and brought along a character dedicated to keeping them alive.
In particular, my favorite builds to run are axe warrior (of the insanely high DPS variety, not the stance tank variety), pet ranger, and minion master. None of these takes self-heals, because to do so would cripple their primary function. Does this mean I'm dependant on the monks of the group? Yes. Does it mean that I'm being a detriment to my team or in some way being less effective than if I had self-heals? Definitely not.
I think the idea of self-heals being good is more related to the player's awareness of their own hp and surroundings than the actual heal skill on their bar.
In particular, my favorite builds to run are axe warrior (of the insanely high DPS variety, not the stance tank variety), pet ranger, and minion master. None of these takes self-heals, because to do so would cripple their primary function. Does this mean I'm dependant on the monks of the group? Yes. Does it mean that I'm being a detriment to my team or in some way being less effective than if I had self-heals? Definitely not.
I think the idea of self-heals being good is more related to the player's awareness of their own hp and surroundings than the actual heal skill on their bar.
Raxxman
Self heals have major pressure off monk capacity, I'd say taking a self heal is as important as taking a Res sig.