Sorrows Furnace. Play your role.

Ok, I've been having trouble finding descent Sorrows Furnace groups lately. It's usually a good group, with the exception of 1 guy not doing his part. In a 5 man group, if 1 guy isnt doing his intended role, the whole team can suffer. I'm making a little guideline for you new players that want to try out sorrows furnace farming.

Tank:
Do not bring attack skills. You're going to be holding a keg or a gear the entire time inside the furnace. Bring stances and shouts, and if you're a warrior/monk, bring balthazar's spirit and cast it upon yourself. Simple as that. Never drop the keg/gear, spam your stances and shouts. In my experience, the best elite to bring is Gladiatiors Defense, but if you want to bring Shield of Judgement or something else, thats fine. As long as you stick to stances/shouts, and NOT attack skills.

Minion Master:
16 Death Magic is a must. Your role is to make minions and keep them alive. You do not need to bring attack skills. Deathly swarm should not be on your skillbar. Bring fiends and horrors. Your elite skill should be Offering of Blood or Tainted Flesh. There's no need for you to bring spiteful spirit. Put as many points in soul reaping as you have leftover from death.

Spiteful Spirit:
16 Curses a must. You must be a Necromancer/mesmer. Don't bother arguing, N/Me is the most effective SS build. You MUST bring Spinal Shivers. Without that, killing monk bosses is going to take forever, or it will be impossible. Other than spiteful spirit and spinal shivers and arcane echo, you're pretty much free to bring whatever you want. I like to bring malaise, parasitic bond, and weaken armor, a hex removal from the mesmer skillbase, mantra of resolve, and rez sig or blood ritual. There is no need for you to bring any attack skills, and do not bring Mark of Pain. It causes enemies to scatter, making Spiteful less effective.


The problem usually lies with these 3 players. The monks seem to always be good. I know this may sound like basic knowledge to some of you, and it is, but for some people, they just don't know. It's frustrating for me and other experienced players to team up with unexperienced players and waste time.

I hope this helped, and I hope that people can start playing their roles a little better.

As a warrior I always bring disrupting chop/distracting blow/savage slash especially in SF. Why? because monk bosses usign ressurect = no fun.


Spinal shivers only works if water damage is being dealt. Curses and blood wands do dark damage. Death magic wands do cold.

LifeInfusion
actually Villnar's set does cold dmg to

:P So vague, everyone knows warriors need cold weapons for spinal.
Deathly Swarm is not a bad skill for helping at the begining.
And OoB is useless if you're using soul reaping.
MM necros should bring a few curses as well.
Spiteful just needs to concentrate on his spinal shivers and SS, dont overcomplicate that. :[

Despite a couple of apparent rough spots (I wouldn't know), this is a very useful thread IMO. I've decided to shelve my (apparently) useless Ele for these higher missions and am working on a Necro specifically for farming SF and other places.

Hopefully, this will go a long way towards saving me from a lot of "You Idiot!" and "WTF! N00B!" type comments. Thanks

I love how PvErs feel they are doomed to failure or inefficient if they don't have the exact same build, skill-for-skill, attribute-for-attribute or if they try something differant.

Amusing.

Monsters don't change like opposing pvp teams. Not like we have to keep up with them alternating skills, we always know what to expect from areas that have been played through.

I avoid those groups mainly. I don't like to nag on them for playing their way (or not really playing it as some believe) and so just avoid them altogether. When I get into groups with friends, guildies, etc they all know that I like to actually play if I'm a tank, or prefer to actually let the tank in our group play. That means I set the rules beforehand (since I'm the guild leader) that there will be no keg/torch/book holding during this run. If they want to stand there and hold a book, or shoot at mobs while someone holds a book I kindly tell them they can go to IGE.com (yes, the place that's against the EULA) and buy their gold because it's about as interactive as holding a book. Some of us believe that the book/keg/torch trick is a bug and thus if you are exploiting a bug (against the EULA) then in out mind its no more wrong to tell someone to just buy gold at a gold merchant in real life.

I for one enjoy playing my warrior and his level 20 warthog and don't disgrace him (ok I'm an old roleplayer so that may have something to do with it) by making him a sacrificial ornament on the battlefield. This procludes me from many fissure groups and sorrow's furnace groups, but really I don't mind that much. I only posted this message for those out there that feel dirty doing this in order to let them know that they're not alone. I'm sure some of them join the oro groups or fissure groups just to screw up the lame ones (using a book/keg/torch trick), and I'll tell them that it's better to let them be and go do your own thing.

Maybe that's what the OP is encountering. Hopefully some of them will read this and quit taunting those people that feel comfortable with something like that and leave them be. They have as much right to play the game (play used loosely) the way they want as you have to play the game you want. So please if you don't want to be a librarian/torch bearer/beer hauler, just avoid the groups..

To the OP: I hope that helps.. Good luck in your adventures..

Please put your IGN in your profile. The other 999,999 account holders can then PM you before each battle to have you critique the skill button they are about to depress.

Contrary to your own belief, the world doesn't need you telling us what our roles are. I am pretty sure you didn't pay the $50 for each of the 1 million + accounts on GW, so how about to stop trying to dictate how other people play the game that they paid for?

Nice to see that you've got this down to a precise little cookie-cutter formula for everybody else to play by, but I'll pass on farming SF with you for the moment. I'm having more fun experimenting with FoC and Soul Leech / Backfire builds than I'd be playing everything to everyone else's specifications.

Actually, there is no such thing as "water damage," except in my basement, which is not where I play Guild Wars.

"Cold damage" is what's required for Spinal Shivers.

The attributes commonly associated with cold damage are Water Magic and Death Magic, but as noted above Vilnar's is a max-damage Curses-based weapon that does cold damage.

3 necros 1 warrior 1 monk > 2 necros 1 warrior 2 monks

FoC x 2 + SS = win.

And spinal shivers is crap.

Edit: Make that x 6 as it will be arcane echoed and mimicry

Strange - my level 15 Death Magic MM has completed tons of runs without a single problem - and I do have a single attack skill!

Also strange - most of the experienced MMs I've been friends with all say the same thing: Fiends only.

But of course, you're the expert here, not us.

The OP seems frustrated with the quality of those who do the Sorrow's run right now because the truth is that there are a lot of new farmers there. In fact, there always will be as it is there are no start up costs to farm a new spot and people get bored so don't stick to a spot long.

Cookie cutter PUG groups are how new farmers and people without a regular group farm this. Both groups are not open to experimentation. However, in reality there are more effective ways to farm sorrows then the standard 5 man if you play around.

I won't go into all the possible builds and combinations of teams, but simply reply to what has been posted.

OP is more or less right about no attack skills. The keg holder should have all utility and defense. However, having an interrupt is a nice piece of utility. If the keg tank brings shield of judgment, kick him immediately. It kills momentum and overall lowers damage per second. The spiteful should be on the fastest acting enemies and this knockdown means it slows them from working themselves to death, the extra damage from the spell is junk.

MM should have level 18 bone fiends. However, he should also be built to maintain them. MM who don't maintain bones are like having a dead slot on your team. Additionally, this job is a total sham. MM is an exploit of necros being good on gaining momentum. If you team (SS) can't maintain the momentum, he is often a dead spot. If your MM is carrying curse line for damage, stop. He needs to self manage energy and curse doesn't help this. Self managed energy means he is operating at 100% capacity CONSTANTLY casting something that makes more babies, feeds the babies, or gets the energy to do the first two. A MM's children are an investment in the future, don't neglect your children!

SS should carry spinal. That said, it is junk. Spinal is good for a "hard lock." By this I mean he puts it on a enemy to shut them down, but it also shuts down the SS as well. If they are casting rapidly the necro will drain out of energy and if there aren't enough minions to force damage on enemies you will lose momentum.

One common misperception is that the SS should carry blood ritual. PUGs want this because the players are too inexperienced to self manage energy. Your MM should NEVER run out of energy and should be able to exploit EVERY corpse without a blood ritual. If the SS carries blood ritual it ties him to the blood line which is weak for his job. Additionally, the only times the MM (or either monk) needs energy is at the same time the SS has none to spare. SS should run himself dry on pretty much every group by casting 4 SS and maybe even some other tricks to stop rez or wells. Awaken sucks, the extra touch of damage is not worth the energy lost (they will die just as fast without) and you will find nothing else on the blood line which helps this job at all. If your SS doesn't carry blood, he can open up the domination line and find many tricks and utility great for making the whole run faster.

Every SS you meet probably carries a vilnar weapon either because they think it is the best curses weapon (no) or because it is convenient to have the cold dam while still having a curse req. However, better SS carry a cold dam sword or axe for the faster attack speed (in addition to the vilnars, sometimes you don't want to be in melee but still lay cold dam). Also, EVERY member of the team should have a cold weapon. I actually have a screen shot of 5 players with IDS raging on a Monk boss. One person with a staff attack won't hit EVERY cast which will slow you down and you will lose momentum.

On a positive note there are very good players on these runs and this is how you identify them.

Tank: Knows maps and mobs and plays into this by getting whole mobs in tight groups at choke points. Sprints constantly.

SS: You will never see a rez or well, also many enemies frequently die at the same time (3 binders in a mob you may see a well).

MM: Good energy management and grab every corpse.

Bonder: No healer is needed.

Healer: No bonder is needed.

Note: You can finish sorrows with any of the common 5 group missing, therefore, if the group falls apart and you think it is that one clearly sucks, it is really because several suck. I have had all the possible positions err=7 out and finished the missions without them. All 4 man combinations can be done (tanking as a SS is a lot of fun ).

Sure, but how do you get 2 elites on your skillbar, short of when you're capping? :P

Well they said 3 necros so one would make the more correct assumption that 2 of the necros are FoC and 1 is SS not both skills on the same necro.

Hopefully that's cleared some misconceptions up.

Dosen't Arcane Mimacry copy a teamates elite?

As for the thread... Why do you want everyone to be such a natzi build specialist? I've seen some poor players who basically don't understand their builde they are playing... but everyone can go find their own build and actually have FUN with it...

Candy Cane wands do cold damage.

Plus, it's very cool to take down a monk boss with a pepermint stick!

see threads like this are, to me, part of whats wrong in the game right now.

no offense to the writer, but why are so many people falling into the cookie cutter "theres only one way to do this" builds ? the lack of creativity or out of the box thinking is sad.

before long noone will build anything other than W/Mo, Mo/W, and SS Necros .. at least until that gets nerfed

im still amazed at how many ppl thing that a mm has to be n/mo... echo is such a useful skill on veritas...

Yes monks are usually good. little hint for the bonder... bring essence bond to throw on gear/keg tank healer can use this too. i love playing bonder there and having my energy bar full during a fight

Um, that's a contradiction isn't it? How can I load up OoB if all my points are in SR? You're probably running OoB if you are also running Healing.

So basically, it should read: "Put as many points in Soul Reaping as you have leftover from Death, Blood and/or Healing.

The best thing that could happen to PvE would be randomized mob composition every instance, maybe even with some degree of skill variation on the monsters.

No super-specialized build would be possible, since you wouldn't know what you were going to face.

That, and kill the gear trick.


Cause your saccing a LOT of health without self-healing. Then the monk has to cover you doing your job, as well as mitigate team damage.

And when he doesn't.... they yell at the monk, not the MM who caused the problem.

ok try this trick and when you have double the amount of minions because they are not constantly degenning, then you being a monk wont mind the occasional heal other on the necro due to the fact that you have twice the army you normally have.

My healing monk brings along distracting shot. Its amazing how often this one skill makes up for the "incompetent" or missing SS necro.

There are tons of variations to the standard 5 man team. For instance a good Ranger can shutdown just as effectivly as a SS necro.

SO once you're in the forge and the tank has the gear... how difficult is it to toss a breeze on the MM every once in a while? Come on now. Once a MM gets his army rolling, monks tend to be almost as bored as the tank.

I know about the trick, you can do it with Glyph of Renewal also. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

Where does this idea come from that an extra 9 seconds of VS doubles your minion count? Cause thats all you gain, and at a HUGE sacrifice penalty. Did you completely discount HA?

Sure you can maintain VS constantly, but take a look at the price it costs:

N/E running GoR+VS casts both every 15 seconds. Assuming 480 health on the necro, thats 288 health per minute, not counting BotM, which can push that to beyond 400 health per minute....continuously, for as long as you have minions.

N/Me running AE/Echo + VS is very similar.

Run whatever you want though, run W/N MM if it makes you happy

Don't tell me... You're a PvP IWAY drone right?

I'm a mesmer. What role is there for me?

Oh, that's right. There isn't one.

Got to love the cookie-cutter mentality.

Hey there from M E A T B A L L ^^
Well if you want green items, just ask me for advice
Here are some screens from 2 men sorrow furnace runs

http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2556ak.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2516ne.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2528em.jpg
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2537fd.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2589ig.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2590mt.jpg

You can see the name of the bosses that are dead with the green letters
you usually get like 3-4 min items from all the bosses. Thats like 2 per run.
Thats the minimum, sometimes you can get like 8-9 items ^^

1 good warrior > any NPC in the game ^^

I never said other combinations don't work. But they are taking advantage of an exploit (gear trick) and in most cases, call it skill.

The day they fix the gear trick, will be the day N/E and N/Me dies as a MM build. Then the monks will have actual work to do, and you won't see sloppy inefficient builds propped up by exploits.

Then the real strengths of N/R and N/Mo will come to light, until then....run whatever makes you smile.

mesmer can mm, or healing or interupt in furnace

I use my Ele for SF, UW, Tombs, and FoW runs. My guild does a lot of balanced teams in these areas and a good nuker is a must. Ele's are in no way useless. They are fun to play with and can rip off some serious damage to whole groups a lot quicker than an SS could get the whole group cursed. Never doubt the power of a good ele. See this thread for my advanced Nuker build.

Looking through this I have a feeling this thread will soon turn into build nazi and anti-build nazi debate. To preempt this with more productive discussion:

The only person you should bring into any team farm run (if you can) should be a person who makes you laugh, reguardless of their build.

The best gear tank build I have seen is a R/E.

N/Me, N/Mo, and N/E minion mancers are equally good, the pilot is always the difference.

I would replace the MM or SS with a fire ele, dom mes (seen it run a couple dozen times), or barrage ranger ANY day of the week.

SS is not broken, it is just easy to use. If SS was nerfed to do less dam or a slower recharge or more energy cost it would create a large number of slow moving farm groups too babied by SS to stop using it while making it terrible for PvP. If AI was made to flee or stop attacking because SS was on it, it would instantly be the most powerful PvE spell ever and the SS necro would be required in every party from Kryta on.

well said jciardha

i find it amusing that they speak of a ranger being able to shut something down, but no love for the mesmers ?

I second that... I don't think I would ever join a group that was this way, and I don't like to play my characters like they're somebody else's robot. If I get into a group with somebody and they tell me exactly what skills to bring and in what order, I usually leave and tell them they should hench it. Reminds me of a time when I strolled into the tombs area with a R/Me, but nobody would accept me into a B/P team because I wasn't a R/Mo. Even though I had barrage, lvl 20 pet, and spirits, nobody wanted me. I asked why, and somebody told me, because I didn't have rebirth.

Or you can use a nuker that's use to nuking if you can't get the required people ...

It's ok if things are not exact, and if you force people that are not use to a build, it may not go so smooth you have to go with the flow sometimes.

I'm a monk and have good builds that work, but when I'm told to say do X, I'm fumbling with skills and timming (sometimes) due to most group not taking on the small mob groups (that can be avoided) along the way to get my practice in with said build.

Try other things.

A normal MM will have atleast 2 open skill bars. Deathly swarm is not a bad skill to use in the beginning. As things starting to die, then the MM should stop using it and concentrate on making minions.

It is very important for a MM to heal his/her minions (don't fully depend on monk's heal area because BoM heals more.) I have seen MM who just run around making minion without healing them -_- Without mainting a large number of minions, MM's ability to body block and attack will decrease greatly.

I personally like to use Tainted Flesh on the W before he/she runs to the mobs. TF only costs 5 energy and disease helps to kill stuff faster.

I can understand the frustration of the OP, but i have to agree with the notions that almost any 5 man build will work for farming. Ok, some will be more effective then others.
Being a fairly incompetent monk myself (people who played with me agree, i always end up dead 1st),but when we do farming with friends or guildies we always fill up the last 1 or 2 slots with someone random, and we let them bring the skills they like most to play with. It seems more effective to let people play with what they like, instead of demanding them to bring skills that they might feel uncomfortable with, or are inexperienced with. Also a friendly non-demanding attitude always does do wonders for team spirit. It always ends up being lots of fun, and no-one even complains if i forget that i am the monk and not the groups tank and we get a wipe out.

In conclusion: Less demanding = More fun = less complaints

(if anyone likes to die under my monking supervision, just PM me and we will try to have fun going down)


Flash Heart, aka Lady Flashheart

Shouldn't people who are new the Sorrow learn by themselves, thats the point to learn isn't it, my opinion is ur cheating the newcomers by giving them an easy way, yet there is still some leniceny in the necro ss skills

I'd say that Awaken the Blood is a must as well.....