Fansite Friday #38

yay for skills being quest rewards! i wish gaile could have given some hard details about availability and the whole profession changing deal though..

I'm really happy about the 4v4 teams. Sometimes the 20-30 minute wait time for getting an 8 person team together.. as well as what Scapes call the drama of it all makes me want to scream. This will definitely help with the "pick-up and play" aspect of the game..

Thank you Gaile.

Can't say I'm too excited about getting skills as quest rewards - wow, Shatter Delusions, can I really mommy? I know it's a brainless quickstart, but is dumping Flare on every new Elementalist, or Sever Artery on every new Warrior really promoting diversity or creative play? Why don't they just hand out skill points and let people choose their paths?

Since we're, in theory, allowed to re-roll our secondary profession (which is a great addition), can we also re-roll our skills? I am a huge advocate of letting people do what they want with their characters, and getting obsolete / nerfed / trash skills out of their list is always a worthy goal. It would, of course, also promote diversity as every character wouldn't have an identical set of quest reward skills.

Organized 4v4 arena is an excellent addition for quick PvP runs. One thing to think about would be to make the random arenas act like the academy - that is, you can pair up with one other person who will be on your team once you're in the arena. That maintains the random aspect, but lets you play with / train a friend or guildie if that's what you're after. It might foster a bit more strategy than 'play a character designed to solo the other team' as well.

There are arguments for keeping things the way they are, though, so I won't push that issue.

Peace,
-CxE

ITS TORTURE! TORTURE I TELL YOU!

Anyway, this business of re rolling your secondary, I am not sure I picked that up correctly. Does this mean you could switch from a Ra/mes to a Ra/nec without wiping the character? (and as such gold and armor etc) IF this is true, someone please advise how this would work, and how one would go about it.

Voice acting? That is great, except I won't be starting a character till release so I'll just have to assume they did a good job on the voices.

Some people were wanting a dueling element added to the game (in other threads) I think that the 4v4 non random is about as close as we will get to that. So, I think it may make those people happy.

Thanks Gaile!

That one really excites me. My 8v8 matches have always seemed chaotic and frankly less strategic than they could be. I think 4v4 would be about the perfect size for making a tight, focused, coordinated team. And not so large that you can really be prepared for everything, either -- you need to pick and choose more carefully what you're really going to be prepared to counter. It sounds like more fun to me...

Only if you can pick your opponent. Then you can arrange a duel, as for the other three people, maybe a second and a couple of observers? I dunno, I don't think it's really going to make anyone who wants dueling implemented happy. I like the 4v4 idea, but it's not anything like being able to challenge someone to a duel. How we're ever going to resolve questions of honor, I just don't know...

What I liked:
-Voice Acting. Thank you, this was a big improvement. Next up: synching.
-4v4 Arena with choosable teams. Awesome! If past work is any indicator, this will be really well-done and is a great addition.
-Making skill points easier to acquire. Necessary if we're going to be rerolling our secondaries.

On the Fence:
-Rerolling secondaries. This helps monks, because there really aren't any natural secondaries. I can see how it is of some benefit to most players, but I don't really want people able to switch back and forth and back and forth as it suits them. That wouldn't promote diversity, it means there will be more and more "Flavor of the Month" PVE characters.

Didn't like:
-The explanation of new skill acquisition system.

I don't see how giving everyone the same or similar skills as quest rewards promotes diversity. Instead this reduces variety: If you give every new elementalist fireball as their new spell, they're all going to continue to use fire. How does that teach them that the ward spells are really effective?

The skills available from trainers in the early game already have a HUGE impact on how each profession is played. Giving out skills as mission rewards is just going to have more characters with the same skills on their bar. Continue to give skill points as rewards, and make more skills available from the trainers. Then we'll have more choices, and that will promote diversity. Don't usher us all along the same path.

Next is the claim that removing skill charms promotes diversity, and that the change BENEFITS PvP characters.

That's a bunch of hooey.

Skill charms were flawed because you didn't have to spend a skill point to use them, not because they taught you skills.

From the article:
I thought that was the point of the charm system- I can buy a charm of a skill I don't already know, so that I can learn a NEW skill.

Instead, we now have:
So this means if I learn Searing Heat with my Elementalist Mesmer that my PVP Warrior Necro would know it, if only he was an elementalist. How exactly is this better than giving me a charm of a skill I want?

Hoping and expecting wont provide variety. Teaching everyone searing heat as a mission reward only means everyone in the game is going to have searing heat when they beat mission one. Skill charms weren't reducing diversity, they were promoting skill choices. If you knew a skill was out there, you had to find someone who would sell you the charm. Now you have to go do the mission yourself, which is apparently the goal of the new policy.

Let's call it for what it is: It's a plus for people who enjoy exploring and looking for skills, but it's another hurdle for people who never enjoyed questing for skills to begin with. Skill charms were a prime way for people who didn't want to grind for skills to get them quickly. Now everyone who wants to know a skill is going to have to put in the same grind, beat the same mission, or get to the same trainer. I'm not saying it's a horrible idea, but let's not kid ourselves and say it benefits those who play PVP equally.

My impression is that you are misinturpreting Gaile; imo she is saying that quests (not the missions that everyone plays, but the quests that you can go on in the explorable areas) can give you skill rewards. This currently only happens in the pre-searing ascalon, but if it continues to happen throughout the game, and there is a similarly large concentration of quests as there are in the pre-searing ascalong, then one is going to find that different players do different quests for skills, probably based on which skills they want. One might guess that some dwarf at the top of one of the shiverpeaks has a quest for a powerfull water spell, etc etc.

So, just because most skills are available as quest rewards, that doesnt mean that they are available early in the game, or that they are easy to get. What it does mean, however, is that one doesnt need extra skill points for them (important if one has run out and not getting any more at level 20). This substantially improves the benefits to doing quests for a player aiming to collect all the skills.

And as such, I like it.

I like the idea of questing for skills because I would enjoy doing a quest featuring a story specifically related to the skill I'm attempting to learn. I think Sphynx is right that, with so many skills being available, different people will end up doing different quests depending on what they want.

First, you have your ordering wrong. For the *vast* majority of players, you'll end up doing the quest without knowing what skill the reward is going to be for. You won't 'just do the quests for the skills you want', you'll do whatever quests you happen to find. Only a small minority of the gaming public will read the guides on which skills are available where.

Second, the only limiting factor on free skill acquisition is time. There's absolutely no reason why a PvE player won't complete every sidequest for his class, and get all of the appropriate free skills.


You're right, it doesn't mean that at all. What it does mean, however, is that *every* character of the appropriate class can know the skill at no cost - there are no choices to be made.


It does mean that you need to be careful what you spend your skill points on - you don't want to 'waste' a skill point on a skill that you can learn through a quest.

I like how giving out skills makes for a practical reward for doing sidequests. I don't like how it typecasts characters and leads to 'wasting' skill points and the like. I'd much rather they handed out skill points for completing a quest, allowing a player to learn the skill they want instead of the same skill everyone else has. In combination with obscure skill trainers, this accomplishes everything that the 'skill rewards' system does, but with more player control and flexability.


I agree that quests of this sort are solid additions to the game. At the same time, I think that giving someone a skill point when they complete the quest, and turning the quest giver into a skill trainer that can teach you that specific skill, is just a better solution. It makes the quest reward worthwhile for all players, it gives players more control over what skills they know, it avoids typecasting every character into the same mold with the same skills, and it gets rid of issues like 'wasting' a skill point at a trainer when you could get it for free elsewhere.

Basically they already have a more extensible solution to what they want to accomplish, so I'm advocating using that instead of introducing kludgier mechanics with new problems. It's more consistent, more elegant, and just plain better.

Peace,
-CxE

I don't think I've misinterpreted Gaile. As you noted, the only place you gain skills as quest rewards is in Pre-Searing. Has anyone ever been rewarded a skill, free of cost, after the Searing? If they have, please let us all know, it would certainly enlighten the conversation.

Secondly, as Ensign pointed out (and I did earlier) if you give everyone the same skill, you're promoting uniformity, not diversity.
At the very least, make the reward a skill point and a trainer that teaches only 1 skill. If I don't want the skill, then I'll walk away with my one skill point. Because I guarantee you I never want to learn Ressurrect when Restore Life is available, or Seeking Blade when Savage Slash is available.

Finally, it still doesn't address the issue of PvP characters.
I have no problem giving out skillpoints as quest rewards, but PvP characters are still losing out in this change. To learn a skill, one of my PVE characters must have unlocked it. Before I could give him a ring and a charm- what was the problem with that system? (Outside of not costing a skill point, which I already addressed) It just means I have to grind for every skill in the game- rings and charms gave you a way to buy out of that paradigm. Personally I preferred the charm system, just make them cost a skill point. If you wanted to, you could make quest rewards a ring and a charm of a skill, instead of making the skill itself the reward? Who does that hurt?

But isn't that in and of itself a problem? If acquiring skills becomes utterly time-based, then isn't that a detraction from GW's idea of skill being more significant than time, since it'll end up being whoever has more time to grab skills has the clear advantage?

hi Ensign

regardless of how many and how easy the skills are to get to me that means a better choice of the 8 skills i bring to the table

rather than promoting conformity would not a larger choice bring less confprming as people experiment with the better selection of skills?

EDIT

it was stated that a great majority would be available at trainers as well which would cut quest time down

The game has a wonderfully conflicted relationship with 'grind' and time spent building up characters. Grind, character development, item acquisition, and the like are neccessary parts of the game - just look at the number of people who fear the level cap because it keeps them from grinding out more levels. The search for the next upgrade is a critical part of the game, that they can't eliminate entirely and still be successful.

But they don't want the item and skill grind to be the biggest factor of success. A good player with mediocre equipment and skills should beat a mediocre player with good equipment and skills. Granted, all else being equal the better equipped team will win. But when things are unequal player skill should dominate.

Is there a problem with making access to the best skills a time sensitive endeavor? Sure. Is it going to be game breaking? Probably not. Putting skill trainers in far off areas that people have to quest to seems to be perfectly reasonable to me. It'll take some more time to build up your character to PvP efficiency, sure, but that's part of what makes the game work - for better or worse.


Absolutely. Higher skill availability translates directly into a more diverse selection of skills used. There's a limit to this, granted, but we're not in danger of hitting that. If you give every Elementalist Flare for damage and no other choices, every Elementalist will use Flare. If you give a newbie Elementalist the choice of Flare, Lightning Strike, Stone Daggers, and Ice Spear, you'll see four different classes of low level Elementalists in some proportion that we can guess at. Crank up the number of skills available even higher, and you'll get even more diversity.

That's the whole point of giving players choices, so that they can make them and play the game in different ways. That's why I'm advocating skill choices from the very beginning, so that players can choose their path instead of being led down a single one. How many Elementalists use Fire not because they want to, but because by the time they are given any real choice they already have a skill bar full of fire skills that they're familiar with?

Peace,
-CxE

This would be easy enough to fix. Simply have the NPC giving the quest display the quest reward, so you'll know whether or not you want to bother undertaking it. I know people don't like comparing GW in any way to other mmorpg's, but it's worth noting that this method is used in WoW and works very well. You know before you ever hit the "accept" button whether you want the quest reward or not.

People will eventually be able to get every skill anyway, regardless of how they're learned. Whether it's through skill points, gems, or any other method, every skill is available to anyone who wants it. Especially now that it's going to be possible to switch secondary classes. If only certain skills were available through questing, it would promote uniformity but with nearly every skill available through quests (which is, I believe, the way Gaile said it would be) it's simply a different option for gaining them.

and you could decline the reward if you didnt want that skill and still have the fun of the quest and the exp on the way to completing it

maybe an automatic exp reward for the quest with an option on the skill to decline it

They really should have it an option...
"As a reward I can teach you one of these skills, or you can gain a skill point to learn another skill."
Pick your reward. Should be skills from different attribute lines to choose from, to allow for some more diversity.

I am strictly a PvE player so I won't trash you for wanting your PvP options...

I just don't see why they have to always please one side of an arguement. By nature of the diversity of players they want, they are going to compromise.

From what I have always known, they want this to be enticeing to all kinds of players. Compromise means nobody gets everything and everybody gets something. Most skills are available from trainers now. That means you get your points... you go see trainer...get what you want from them and move on. If somebody like me wants to go quest and get offered a skill as a reward, why not. I went for the quest. They won't offer me a quest if it isn't something my character can learn anyways. (that from pre-searing... two different characters talking to same person got different responses... ok if you do this I'll give you this...or I'll just be on my way ...aka.. no bother me)

There are a lot of things I don't like concerning some aspects of the game...still willing to accept them though. I can't have it all and why would I want to. Ideal = Utopian...never gonna get it....

They took skill charms away and made trainers....what's so bad about that.
You don't have to go bribing somebody to get...just go buy it yourself...and if you don't want to buy it....go learn it in a quest....hmm look options..... power through and do nothing you don't want except grab skills and level to go PvP or go questing and take your time and learn things from quests. Not like you'd be using most of the quest skills anyways.....you'd be too busy filling a niche for the guild or harassing somebody for not following the same team only play logic.

Either way...nobody wins..and everybody gets something. I'll be content wherever it goes..just as long as I get my one consideration out of it for my play style.

Actually, no. One only actually needs 8 skills on a character. If you are short of time, chose the skills you want, look them up on a nice website like GW Guru (which will presumably be adding quest rewards to the listings of how to get skills too), and just go questing for those skills.

The player who has spent lots of time questing for all the skills will have more flexability, but if the person who only has 8 skills has exactly the right set of 8 synergistic skills, then their build could still be better.

And when putting a PvP team together, one doesnt necessarily need all your players to be able to play any character type. A team is always going to be able to use a healer, a protection monk or a warrior tank. The players with fixed skills play their one character, the players with flexibility fill out the team with the other stuff it needs.

May be in order to promote diversity when the quest is finished and a skill is granted to the player then instead of getting a fixed skill then the player will have a choice between different skills from different attributes of both his primary and his secondary proffessions. For example if a Wa/Mo completes the quest then it would propose a skill from Strength a skill from Swordmanship a skill from Axe Mastery, a skill from Hammer mastery, a skill from Tactics, a skill from Divine Favor, a skill from Healing Prayers, a skill from Protection Prayers, and a skill from Smiting Prayers.