solutions for pvp "stalemates"? (50 minutes of monotony)

(copy of a post I wrote on another forum)

Earlier this evening I joined an Arena PvP random 4vs4 game.

Our team was pretty good, and we quickly racked up 8 consecutive wins,
just about all of them without a single party member death (flawless).

At this point we wanted to see how long of a run we could go on...

In our ninth battle, we quickly dispatched 3 out of the 4 opposing members
in a few minutes. However, the fourth member, Leet Runna Zooooom [CR],
made it a point to to live up to his namesake and keep on runnning away.
He had no res, and his dead teammates all logged out knowing that there
was realistically no way he'd be able to win.

OTOH, our team makeup was such that two of us had no offense...only
heals/prots, one of us smiting, and one melee. None of us had
slow/knockdown skills/spells...and we didn't have enough spike offense to
take him down before he'd run away.

In my conversation with Leet, he knew he couldn't beat us, but he wanted
one of us to quit before he'd quit....just to give himself the satisfaction I imagine.

...so our team decided to wait.

50 minutes.

It took 50 minutes before Leet Runna Zoooooom decided he had enough "fun"
and logged out. It could've gone on for hours, days, weeks, months...

Our hope was that through this example, and other examples, Areanet can
come up with a solution to STOP these stalemates. A time limit perhaps,
which takes into account the remaining amount of members left?

We were never able to see how long our run could last as half the team went
afk after about thirty minutes of this madness.

I know many will cry that we didn't have enough skill to take him down...
nevertheless, there has to be some solution to a true stalemate that could go
on for eternity. Otherwise a few people can ruin what is otherwise an
awesome gameplay experience.

So what do you think Areanet could implement to curb situations such as
this?

screenshots:

Whatever it is I hope it is not to get rid of the speed skills.

All it would have taken is for ONE of you to have one of the many spells or skills that can slow a player down. I think it is very odd that nobody had this and this battle was probably a fluke that won't often be repeated. It is probably not going to be common enough for AN to have to take action.

It is certainly a strategy that is easily counterable.

Besides what is wrong with a stalemate? If anything, after a certain amount of time passes without a victor a stalemate should be declared. In chess you don't say that the person with the most peices won if no further move can be made. It is a tie game.


Pop

First of all, I hope that next time, you make an attempt to bring a skill that can take down a runner like that if it doesn't interfere with your build too much. But I do agree that something like this would annoy the crap out of me. There should be a 5 minute countdown if the last person standing doesn't have res. That way, if that person has the skill, they can pull off a last minute upset. If not, which might be the case 99% of the time, there won't be a ridiculous 50 minute long stalemate. That should give the last person a chance to make a comeback and still have the battle end in an acceptable amount of time.

There is nothing wrong with a stalemate. However, this game doesn't HAVE a stalemate in Arena PvP. You will just sit there for eternity until people decide to log off...and break up their random PVP group.
Hence, the need for a possible solution...

Perhaps a cool way to set a time limit would be to introduce (at a given point) a wurm that would attack indiscriminately, if the two teams band together to kill the wurm another comes.

Don’t think I agree with anyone running around for that long in any type of pvp fight and I do share your *grief* as the exact same scenario happened to a team I was in.

I don’t see how a time limit would work or at least may not be as easy as we think to implement properly, we have to keep in mind that 2 on one 1 at the end of a fight can be a long up and down battle and even if the 2 should win, it is possible for the lone fighter to over come the odds.

Just taking into matter the different possibilities here, I think complicates a lot more than we think adding a timer in the game for this purposes, when does it start, in what situations and so on.

I’m not saying this to ridicule or insult anyone here, but Anet as already put in GW things to counter such actions, the obvious of course knockdowns and slowdowns, but you also can use degen skills and long range Ele attacks.

Yes it is extremely frustrating to see a fight drag on 20-50 minutes more than it should, but let me ask you this. Next time you go in an arena battle, are you going to make sure someone brings a skill that will counter this? I know I started making sure of this after the first time it happened, since then I’ve seen this many times and it never lasted more than 2 to 3 minutes.

Rack one up for experience and good gaming.

Unik

Hmm..........I've never had any such experience. I have had a lot of times in the Tombs where both my team and their's just stand there and wait for the other to attack....which never happened. I don't think it's really necessary though.

@original poster: if you didn't kill all the opposing team members, then you did not win the match. nor should you expect the opposing team member to commit suicide to gratify you

if your team can't kill him, it's your own problem. whether or not he had resurrect on him and whether or not he could have killed all your team members is a moot point

if i was Leet, i would have stayed in the game forever. it is not griefing and there is nothing wrong with what he did. i would say you were unfairly ruining his gameplay experience by insisting that he commit suicide when there is no legitimate reason why he should have

the devs do not need to change a thing in regards to this issue.

Give me a break. Next time at least one of your melee types should bring a cripple or speed boosting skill. Do not blame others for entering the arena unprepared. Valarian.

You get 3 mo and w/mo u can pretend to be good in any 4 on 4 and never die but if u cant stop runner then your team isnt worth much. I would do the same thing if i was him and had some time on my hands, just to make a point. Bottom line is he was prepared and your team wasnt.

On another topic i hate it when i am in a group with 2 rangers and neither of em has pin down. Rangers are not that great at doing dmg, rangers are best at annoying/harrassing the other team thru snares, traps, interrupts so dont load 5 dmg bow attacks,pet, trolls ugument and storm runner.

Navaros,

Don't you believe that there is an obligation to fight in the arena. Isn't that the purpose of the Arena? Doesn't a player owe it to his teammates and the opposition to do his best to win? From your earlier posts, you strike me as someone who strongly believes that everyone should do their part to help the team and in doing so, improve the game.

How does Leet's behavior meet that obligation? If he were a monk, this would be a different story but he owed it to his teammates and to the opposition to put up a fight. There is little class or character in what he did and little consistency in your attitude if you support him.

putting up a fight if it is guaranteed suicide, is outright stupid. Leet was not obligated to put up a fight vs. suicidal odds. just as no player is forced to stay in one spot during matches whilst he gets beaten on til he is dead.

a good player would never purposely commit suicide vs. a team that could not kill him. nor is there any obligation to.

the purpose of the Arena is to win by any legal means necessary. what Leet did was certainly attempting to win within necessary legal means.

BodyBlock works, though griefing in Arena is somewhat still painful no matter what you do.

In boxing, if you don't win by knockout within a certain time, a winner is chosen based on points. Maybe that is the answer. PvP battles, after 30 minutes without resolution, end with the winner being the team that inflicted the most damage (or made the most kills).

That also adds another level of complexity, just like many major sports such as football and basketball are timed, with "clock management" being an element of strategy.

The funniest part of the deal is the name backs up the action.

I get where it would be annoying as stink and personally I would end it, but with the name Leet Runna Zoooooooom - you should have known you couldn't win.

I like this idea.

This is silly. Arenanet said this is a team game and a game of skill. Allowing this goes directly against that and ruins gameplay experiences. You should've had some damage hex or snare, though.

thanks for all the responses.

to clarify though, i never intended to paint Leet as the loser.
that's why i call it a stalemate...no one wins.

currently the only way to resolve a stalemate is to log out...which hurts *both* sides...causing both groups to disband in the random pvp arena setting...

although doubtful, who knows what would happen if there is a genuine tourney or ladder match on hand. the situation could arise again...depending on who was left standing...

in regards to the necessity of a slow/bash/hex/skill/etc. i fully understand that, but i feel that does not address the issue of what happens (rather what doesn't happen) in a true stalemate.

regardless of HOW the stalmate situation arises...games should NOT be won simply by waiting for someone to log out.

a solution should be implemented.

in my view, this statement is completely untrue

if Guild Wars is a game of skill, then that is precisely the reason why players such as Leet should not be penalized with an illegitimate loss if they have not been killed. the other team was not skilled enough to kill him, therefore they did not win. nor do they deserve to have winned.

arbitarily changing the rules of the game simply to cater to players who are frustated because they do not have all the necessary skill to succeed under the current rules would be what ruins gameplay experiences.

EDIT: this was posted this before i saw original poster's latest response

who says leet should have been penalized?

no one on either side wins in such a situation. both teams should go on, or refight, or SOMETHING.
not simply log out.

edit: this was written before i saw navarros's edit. lol

That's exactly how some of the arena maps operate.....whichever team makes the most kills in the allotted time wins. Unfortunately, this wasn't such an instance. I don't think ANet should change the game to avoid the rare instance where one person can avoid getting killed by superior numbers however I like that this thread was started as it has revealed a fair amount of hypocrisy.

Yes, in a random arena, make sure all of your melee types bring a diverse skill bar to accomodate every situation. That makes total sense. Furthermore, who is the original poster blaming? I don't see any blame except directed towards this Leet guy and I certainly wouldn't call him unprepared. In keeping with the theme of your post, I would think you would want to blame others for entering the arena unprepared. None of what you wrote makes any sense.

The original poster can correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't see him pretending to be good or trying to promote his team any more than they deserved. They won 8 consecutive matches.....sounds decent to me but who cares, that's not what this is about anyway. Again, it is ludidcrous to believe that in a randomly selected arena, you can field a team that is prepared for every situation and yet I'm seeing hindsight criticism of this guy from people demanding that every character should be universally prepared. Bottom line is you guys are hypocrites for criticizing random arena teams for not doing the impossible.


Navaros, you put yourself in the shoes of one of the members on this team facing Leet and you'd be singing a different tune. The validity of his tactic would be replaced by how precious your time is and that morons such as Leet should be banned from the arena. You've admitted to grouping with such morons that have wasted your time. In the end, what did Leet do except waste everyone's time? He didn't win, he eventually quit. What was the point of his tactic except to ruin the experience for everyone involved? Again, hypocritical of you to support him based on the importance you put on your time.

what about a button that comes up to agree to stalemate - like the skip cinematic button - if both teams click the button - it is over and there is no winner.

So who returns? Tie goes to the defending champ and they return losing the consecutive winning streak..

just a thought.

Greif, plain and very simple. Anyone who defends running around for 50 minutes as acceptable is either:

a. an idiot.
b. a griefer themselves.

"Bla bla bla, should have there slowdown skills".. its a 4 on 4 pick up game. Very little strategy, its supposed to be a fun quick way to kill each other.

Suggestion to fix: create one high hitpoint npc as a secondary objective. Winning team defends him, New team attacks.

I'm a man who fight those one as Testament J.

All I wanted to say is there are some need to be defined "Win/Lose" or "Tie".
In this case,if the system called the result in any way, we would agree that at least...even it was lost.

Please don't consider as I didn't make any effort for him.
I did have cripple-skill and speed boosting and did I use too.
He used MendAilment,Convert Hexes,Barbed Trap,Troll Unguent,and some skill for running.
It was hard a way to catch up and attack him though I tried.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with the current situation, I don't believe that there's any reason to be harsh with the original poster for his frustration and point of view.

That being said, what it amounts to is that your team obviously wasn't using any tactics with any effectiveness, and it surprises me no one's mentioned that yet. And no, "using skills is using tactics," that's not necessarily true.

You should've baited him into a place with no exits, blocking him off so he couldn't run away anywhere. Flushing him into certain directions, using the proper skills at the proper time and using the environment to your advantage should've allowed 4 people to kill 1 person rather quickly. If he managed to evade 4 people for 50 minutes, then that definitely describes a lack of efficient communication and tactical ability on the winning team.

Nothing should be changed.

- Kymber

Another vote for "Not A Problem".

It would be a problem if they made it so you couldn't run away. There are many skills/spells in the game that counter the "run away" strategy, and every class has access to some. Bring one along next time and you wont be beat. He brought skills that allowed him to survive, and you didn't bring a counter. Sounds like bitter grapes.

Using your reasoning, I could ask them to put a limit on healing, because I didn't bring any offensive abilities to counter his heals.

ok, so far members have come up with these possible "stalemate" solutions:

1. after a set time a stalemate is declared and the match ends.

2. a time limit which begins when the last person standing does not have the ability to resurrect.

3. after a set time an npc(s) is introduced to indiscriminately attack the remaining players.

4. after a set time the winner is declared based on "points"...damage inflicted or amount of kills.

5. the introduction of a "stalemate" button.

6. after a set time a secondary objective is introduced to further gameplay... (e.g. one side defends an npc while the other attempts to kill it.)


A good point was raised in that the Arena PvP matches were meant to be a quick way to PvP. Having a match without end goes against the spirit of the Arena PvP. While the easiest solution to code would be a time limit after which a stalemate is declared...

I like the idea of NPC's being introduced to attack the players. They could start out with one or two, and increase to a full-on invasion. The last team standing wins, and if both sides die at the same time a draw is declared. This would be in the spirit of an "Arena"...where historically animals could be introduced to attack the gladiators in the event that things became...BORING.

There are pro's and con's to having a button to either issue a stalemate or to issue in the introduction of NPC's...which can be discussed further.

A stalemate situation can also arise in Tombs...and there should be provisions made in case such a situation occurs...especially in a ladder situation.
Such a solution should perhaps be different than the one for the quick Arena PvP.

To everyone else, understand that stalemates have happened and will continue to happen...please look outside the conditions of this specific situation.

just look at sports, where there are provisions for tie games or matches...

look at strategy games such as chess...where stalemates can be declared or resolved.

even look at video games such as bomberman, where the playing field gets slowly reduced to nil after a set time period.

This is not about sour grapes or frustration...it is about a glaring oversight in the game which should be addressed. To say that a stalemate SHOULD not or WILL not happen (for whatever reason) is naive at best....

In any case, I'd love to hear futher suggestions!

I agree with Navaros. If you couldn’t kill him he didn’t lose.

I personally feel that slowing skills are very important in PvP. They help warriors catch runners, and non warriors run from warriors. I'm surprised that between the W/N and then Me/Mo there was no slow skill.

I Agree with con_ritmo. I had to waste 3 hours of my life until this guy decided to quit the game. He could not kill me and I could not kill him. Neither one of us would leave so we played the wait game. ANet definately needs to add some kind of time limit to stop this crap.

there was 4 of you...why didn't you just box him in?

/not a problem

i actually like runners.i use w/r,let them run for a little the whip out a bow from pve and pin down ftw.or i use knockdowns if im playing ele.almost everyone knows that people run in randoms so they should be prepared.

why would you waste that much time in the random arena? Don't blame arenanet...you hit a stalemate, random 4v4 means nothing, you should have just left. You need to implement a life.

Healing Monks and Rangers tend to be the worst culprits....

Running from a fight without any means of winning is nothing more than moronic.

Great so you can prolong the fight.....why..??

Your crappy running build has failed to kill anything or do anything and your team has lost, gg

Maybe next time you can bring some skills that might do something instead of 2 running skills and 2 defensive stances. Running with no means of winning shows that your build is trash -- nothing more


You shouldn't chase these idiots about the map -- simply stand together and ignore him/her -- they'll log-off after a few minutes

This garbage play only occurs at sewer level PvP, anyone reputable will simply quit or die with the /dance emote :P

Try Team Arena, GvG or Tombs instead for a higher standard of play

And I'm surprised you couldn't Plague Touch the Pin Down tbh -- that's how I kill most of the ranger runners...

There's a fine line between running so you can survive to fight later on....but running and running when you have no chance to win and when your other teammates are dead IS griefing.

There are people who actually go into random arenas with such griefing builds that don't do anything but have a few speed boosts and anti knockdown (balanced stance) or anti snare skills (mend condition to get rid of cripple).

It really irks me to hear people keep spouting nonsense such as "You obviously suck if you cant bring down a runner" If everyone brought a build specifically to bring down runners, it wouldnt be much of PVP then.

I don't expect people to stand still while melee types beat on them...but come on. If you're running just for the heck of it, you shouldnt be playing PVP.

EDIT: And come on, With a name like Leet Runna Zooom, how can you people be defending his actions? This person obviously made his character to run and grief people. He wasted everyone's time. He wasted his own team's time, he wasted the opposing team's time and wasted his own time too. It's sad that people find enjoyment in annoying people.

While I think that running is a valid tactic in the majority of situations, IMO this particular situation boils down to two very important questions:

1. Is it fun for the runner? (possibly, but even if it was at the beginning I'm more inclined to think running for 50 minutes is more stubbornness than it is fun)

2. Is it fun for the victims? (no)

The purpose of the game is to have fun. Therefore, if a situation is such that the best that can happen is that one side *might* be having fun, then I wonder whether it's really good for the game for it to be viable.

However, implementing a fix for this is a lot harder than it seems. For example, you can't use "no combat" since the runner could just fire an arrow now and then to keep from ending the match. You can't use "no deaths/resurrections" because two teams could simply be in one of those super-defensive monk battles where nobody dies for a long time before a team finally breaks. Etc Etc etc. It's a very slippery slope drawing the lines here and I can fully appreciate the possibility that Arenanet has not implemented a solution simply because they haven't found a good one.

I for one hate people who whine... Anet Nerfs everything

*BRING A SNARE
Read the above line...
Now read it one more time.

I don't care what you do just bring a snare and take him down.
As simple as that. If you don't bring a snare its a stalemate no one wins. Since there is no possible way of taking him down he wins. And because you can't beat him he wins/loses. It doesn't matter if he runs. You can't beat him. NO ONE needs a new stupid ass update.
Stinkin whiners crying to their ANET mom.

But I believe that they should also do like they do in boxing, like an above poster said. Count on # of points.

*Read this.

Thanks

Griefing - no doubt about it.

A. he did not attempt to win
B. There is no skill involved in running for eternity.
C. It penalizes players who are not on broadband connection. The game now depends on your internet connection and not on actual skill.
D. If this is acceptable - then all professions would put things on even kil. Right now - only to professions are the only plague by this problem. I doubt any supporters of this griefing would defend it then.

Con_Ritmo:

BTW - For using smiting group - i think it was Karma. Next time have a little more imagination in your group

This was random arena. You do realize that the teams are thrown together randomly in random arena, right?

Preach on brutha

I really believe EVERYONE should have a slowing skill. Settle down everyone.

Yeah, I tend to agree.

I mean, it was your 32 skills vs. his 8. Looks to me like he had what it took to stay alive longer than anyone on his team and avoid being killed by anyone on yours.. hardly a stalemate, since the odds are so very overwhelming that at least one out of your 32 skills was going to be a snare As it stands, had everyone on your team dropped except for one, Leet still would have had the upper hand! So if any number between one and eight of you can't kill him, I don't think he should be penalized, nor does it really seem fair that you'd receive the same accolades as him..

A stalemate in this game would be more like if everyone on both teams was still alive because no one could be killed off on either side (which I'm having a hard time imagining).


I think the 8 of you should have been gentlemen and simply accepted a loss.. but why not skip that and just pack a snare next time instead?