How can we as a community get our voice heard with the devs regarding grind?

Any advantage is an advantage chowdah, no matter how small. If a person spawned with 110 health instead of 100 health in quake it's a minimal difference but it's still an advantage. No amount of arguing is going to convince you a level playing field is the best for fairplay and an enjoyable gaming experience.

It is obviously the best, barring extenuating circumstances. Such as that of creating a dicotomy between PvP and PvE. You couldn't be the best in the world. You could only hope to be the best in PvP or PvE. Sux.

As far as skills are concerned, I don't think there would be any significant problems with allowing everyone, even PvE characters, access to them all in PvP matches. After all, it's so very easy to change them around anyway.

Allowing all items, however ... that's a pickle. You can't let PvE characters have access to all of them, because they can't change their items around without significant work.

Maybe ... there could be an "Arena Quartermaster" NPC in each PvP arena. Talk to him and he'll give you whatever you want, but you have to give it back when you leave (in other words, it dissapears if you go into any non-PvP area).

That might work, but I'd feel really really stupid walking around with my normal armor in PvE when I knew there was really awesome stuff just around the corner.

If it were everquest mentality we'd be a year into the game by now. With people getting their elites and full characters after ONE month, I don't think you can even relate this to EQ, FFXI, DAoC, SWG or ANY mmo available that has grind. I don't play nearly as much as I had to for EQ and I have two 'nearly' full built characters.

Ya know, I truly am doing my best to understnd this "I can't have fun without all the toys" hyper-competative mindset you seem to thrive on. It just doesn't strike me as fun to have to stress over if Joe Schmoe on the other team might possibly have a skill I don't have. I just go out and play and do my damndest to win and if I lose I try to figure it out and try something different the next time. If I get tired of losing or tired of winning for that matter, I go do something else.. Its about fun and not about stressing over what the next guy has.

Obviously you and those like you are incapable of simply relaxing and enjoying the game as it was designed.. I truly feel sorry for you. It must be a somewhat tortured existance to see every facet of even a simple game as some sort of desperate competition like it's a life and death mission and not a recreational activity.

I'm sure the folks at ANet are looking at what they can do to make you people happier, but I'm afraid that nothing short of breaking the game and catering to your need for instant gratification is ever going to make any of you happier with what you are playing. They have already made plans to make skill and rune acquisition easier for you and you are not happy. Rather than even waiting to see how it turns out you still persist in wanting a "give it all to me right now" button.

Is your need for gratification so great that you would rather they rip their masterpiece to shreds just to make you happy? Do you care about all the other players that do not share your point of view? Take a long honest look at what you are asking for.

Personally I hope that they do find a way that will function for PvP people to get the things they need without having to spend too much time in the other side of the game. I honestly don't think it totally fair that you have to spend as much time as you do getting things unlocked. But they are addressing this issue. They are trying things a little at a time to see at what point it satisfies the needs of the majority without messing up their baby.

I didn't and still don't like the fact that PvE guilds have to rely on PvP players to get sigils for guild halls. The reason is that having a guild hall is an essential part of the game regardless of how you play it and should not be held away from anyone based on playing style. To be honest I didn't expect the sigil situation to improve as it has since they made the changes a few days ago. But it has improved to the point where people are about done stressing over it.

Have patience and let the devs do their thing. You may never be completely happy with what the end results are, but hopefully satisfied enough to keep playing. The thing is you just have to wait and see.



But do try to stop taking it all too seriously.. In the end.. It's just a game.

GJ to all of you believing there must be grind and an uneven playing field. It doesn't matter how comparatively it is to other mmorpgs; there's still significant mindnumbingly repetitive actions you must do before you can play pvp on a level playing field. I just can't understand how you believe there must be a completely arbitrary uneven playing field when it could be even and fair. We'll have to agree to disagree before I start namecalling.

Your mentality that acquiring runes through farming is somehow "earning" it and a level pvp playing field is having it "handed to you on a silver platter" is severely flawed.

It comes down to the fact.

With runes and skills you have an advantage.

Coming from an alpha player, competitive player, etc.

The skills unlocked gives about a 25% bonus to how good you are.

The runes unlocked give about another 25% bonus.

Now this difference is huge on all levels of play.


Runed:

+1 bonus to all skills, no cost.
+50 health, no cost.
+2 bonus to a skill, -50 health
+3 bonus to a skill, -75 health.

So you can basically

Runed:

16 Fire Magic, -25 health, 12 base +1 hat, +3 rune,

unruned,

13 Fire Magic, 12 base +1 hat.

Now,

13 vrs 16

7 damage a skill point on a skill such as fireball, meteor shower, etc.

7x3 = 21.

21 Extra damage.

Now this 21 extra damage over 8 characters, the bonus giving the team an advantage.

Now imagine this same bonus for monks, which is at a much higher rate.

Orison

3.5 health per point, so the difference is 10.5,

63.5 health per heal from orison, Unruned,

74 health per heal orison, runed.

86% as effective.

Now, This does not include the +1 bonus to divine favor aka +3.

so say, 12 divine,
vrs
13 divine

36 vrs 39,

so it adds in another +3 health per heal.

This may seem small,

but this +10% etc advantage is a lot!

not to mention you can sup/major etc.

Now this is just in runes, with skills you have a lot more options.

#1. With more skills you can learn the game a lot faster!

You can see all the skills, test different combinations on a whim, not have to spend x hours to get new skills you need. With experience in UAS it was clear the competition was getting tougher and tougher.

#2 Ability to put together good builds

Putting down a build on paper and knowing it will be a few weeks - roughly 3-4 weeks for your ENTIRE team to get the skills to even run it. Which is ridiculous, understand this is a TEAM game, therefore all 8 need to be set, anythign less is less effective.

Now understand how the game works and people have diff skills and unlocked things, so you cant just have someone play whatever is needed, its impossible because he wont have the skills nor practice with the skills to compete.

#3

It's not fun having to grind. It MAY not be grind to you, but to a PORTION of the community it is, this portion is very large imo, and should be heard.



Now what this creates is a crappy PVP game, and thank you all for your great insights into High level pvp which you have never experienced. I'm sure I could go to your work and tell you how to do it much better, even though ive never done it before.

It's the same thing, you infer its not so bad when you have never TRIED getting all the skills. Some people are content with being sucky at PvP, I for one have not grinding out more then 1/6 of the skills.

It is just plain stupid I have to WORK in a game i play for FUN.

(off the record, I think they should take away internet access at the special schools so less people will post on these forums.)

All of the following is qouted directly from www.guildwars.com



Built for Competition

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.


them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games.

and are creating a game that is both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

This question needs to be posed to all those who keep screaming at the pvp crowd to either like the game as is or leave. How does having pvp only districts with all unlocked affect normal pve play? It splits the game in two...so? The ones who are doing the unreasonable whining are those who have to feel that the time they spend grinding is meaningful, not those that simply want to play the well-balanced pvp portion of the game. If i wanted grind i'd go to a game that did it better. At least their treadmills have more perks.

The devs have until their expansion pack or until a competitor releases a game that does what GW promised to do, whichever comes first. Its one of the nice things about this game not being p2p. That said, they're going to have a hell of a time winning me personally back to spend money on something they release. In the meantime, i'm badmouthing this game to any and all people i know who were interested in buying it.

Laz

If you read one of the other post the Devs actually stated that this is not going to happen and that some wont like this but tuff. They are looking at alternative methods, they are adding more bosses and opportunities to gain these Elite skills, they have already altered the runes drops.
So be happy with what you are getting.

Good luck to you, seeing as every review has given it 85%+ bad mouth it all day, in the end people will just think as I do, if its that bad don't playing and it is obviously not the game for you.
Total War:Rome got 85%+ reviews, but I wouldn't buy it as it is not my type of game, if I did buy it I would chalk it up as experiance and not waste my breath bad mouthing it as with every thing its horses for courses.

I run a NWN campaign PW, and the amount of times I have had players "spit there dummies out over something they don't like is untrue." My answer as always been if you threatening to leave, leave, the rest of the community wont miss you, infact they will be glad you are gone as they wont have to put up with you whinging.
This comment is not directed at you personally Laz, more to all the players of that mentality.

I've already dissuaded 2 people i know from buying the game, and they were all set to do so. Because of my getting the game, a.net has lost 50 dollars. A small victory perhaps, but a real one nonetheless. As this thread is about finding ways to have a.net hear the voices of its players, a protest targetted at their pocketbook seems appropriate.

As to the rest of the community not missing people that leave. thats true right up until the point where the game dies alone and forgotten. Probably not going to happen soon with GW, but a company *cannot* use this as a business model and hope to survive.

Folks, I'm not saying grinding is all great. Like I said.. I honestly hope they can fix it well enough so that at least the majority of you will be content enough to play the game.

I'd liken what you are talking about as grind as to having to do all those damnable infusion runs over and over and over and...Only for skills and things. I appreciate that you want to have a more level playing field for optimum competition in PvP.

But the way the game is designed it isn't possible without breaking the system totally in two. They can put things in place to make it "easier" to get skills and lessen the grinding you see yourselves as doing. But they have to do that in such a way that it doesn't totally nerf the game for all the hundreds of thousands of people that play the game for PvE only..

Actually it would be rather interesting if they had a seperate game that was something along the line of "Guild Wars; Arena" where it was PvP only .. no rp and everyone had everything they wanted or needed without it interfereing with the balance they have put in placew in the current system. It would damn sure cut out all this complaining from the two camps that we have now.

I apologize if I really offended any of your sensibilities, but I honestly can't fathom how getting yourselves so wound up like you do. Most all of you admit that GW has a lot less grind than you see in your typical MMO. SO it isn't perfect. It probably won't be anytime soon. A lot of you got spoiled during the BWE's. I think that has a lot to do with it. If they'd have had the system in play during BWE's like it was on release, I doubt we'd be seeing nearly as much intensity in the complaints. You'd all still grumble, but would be happy that it wasn't going to take you nearly as long as in other games.

You've all paid for your game and got what was advertised if not what you thought you were getting. The devs are working on the proble to try to alleviate some of your concerns. Give it a chance and stop worrying so much for now. ALL of you are in the same boat. Every guild has its members that can play the extra hours and get a few more skills or runes that the more casual player doesn't have time for. But the system is so random that you don't know for certain who has what. Until and IF you ever get your level playing field, think of it as an extra challenge and raise your game to the best level you can. WIth the exception of individuals, overall there isn't any one guild that is going to have an overwhelming advantage unless it is a group that does nothing else all day and night.. every day. Your chances right now are as good as the next person's.

However badly I've put it, that is what I've been trying to say.. you are all in the same boat. It isn't like there are a few mystery guilds that have everything while you are suffering away.. All of you are suffering pretty much equally. And it sux that some folks have decided to put more time in or have just plain been luckier, but you either have to do the best with what you have for now or quit playing. If you were truly of a mind to quit, you would have.. so apparently you like the game and just want it to be better for your play style.

Just do your best and enjoy it as best you can. Hopefully it will improve enough that if not truly happy, you'll at least be somewhat satisfied.

You're saying PvPers should suffer to play the game on a level competitive playing field, and that we should suffer through it just because that's the way it is. Awesome.

I'd prefer a segregated PvP playerbase rather than the current situation. The higher boss spawns and the new rune changes are not a good compromise and still requires hours of grinding.

What I'm saying.. and I'll try this one last time so try not to take things out of context this time.. For now at least, things are not going to be what you want them to be and may well never be. While it would be great if they can fix it so that you can compete the way you folks want to, it will take time at the very least. So in that light yes, if you want to play GW, you'll have to slog through it for now and hope like hell they can fix it at least well enough that you are content with it. Seriously though in what other game other than a FPS have you ever had a truly level playing field?

You have to realize that what you are asking them to do would totally disrupt the balance in this game that they have put in place. The game is made to be played in its entirety not just one side or the other. If one were to do that then the game is about perfect playwise as is. Not necesarily a pefect game but balanced between the 2 aspects

Obviously for people that have no interest in PvE, its not what you want it to be. I think EVEYONE should be able to enjoy the game. But if and when they make it so that you PvP folks have your level playing field, it won't likely be soon. I think that they will try to accomodate as much of the community as they can, but won't compromise the integrety of the system that they have designed. I'm sorry that it makes the game less than palatable for you all. Right now the only solution I see is to split the game in two and I can't see that happening.

I've actually made the suggestion before and I'll make it again:

What needs done is that we all as a commnity, collectively come up with ideas to accomodate ALL of us.. or at leat the majority. That means getting out of the "My side is more important that yours" mindset and actually work together to give the devs ideas on how they might approach this mess.

Obviously the UAS idea isn't gonna fly. SO what will?

Do we separate the game? That would work. But which side would control things like WaW? WHo's side of play determines which of the 3 regions gets acces to the underworld and gets their team or guild name splashed all over the game?

I'm sure part of that your intense sense of competition would compel you PvP ONLY people to think it should depend on you, but the effects are for PvE/PvP folks. Not so sure about that one.

SO what would you have to do as a PvP ONLY side to get gamewide recognition? It's have to be something different.

Or is there perhaps some other approach to getting you access to skills and items IN the PvP side of the game without seperating it in two.

Make seperate tournament tiers with some sort of option to acquire what you need through PvP action on one level and the REAL deal tournament action on a completely seperate tier.

It would still involve grinding in a way, but it would be in direct PvP competion so that you would be getting skills as a reward for kicking some other teams ass and not a bunch of AI mobs. Would that be more acceptable? It might take some time to get what you want, but if it were set up right, teams or even individuals with everyting already unlocked could not compete in the acquisition tournaments.

Come on guys work with me here. I'm not against you at all, but this really has to be a united effort if its to be something that ANet is gonna take seriously.

I can suggest many things better to do with your life than to build it around bringing down a game company which didn't satisfy your desires. But if that's your style then so be it... and good luck. If the game does die alone and forgotten then we will be none the worse for it, having moved on to some other game. Your goal will have been accomplished and you will be successful... sort of... In the meantime, trying to convert us is rather pointless. You're wasting your time on a forum for people who obviously already like and wish to continue this game when you could be out on the street passing out anti-gw fliers and signs and picketing games stores...

besides, how would you feel if you were one of the members of the top guilds that have spent days getting superior runes (or the money to get them) and elite skills, suddenly to be told 'oh, some people couldn't be bothered to get them, so we've added them all in for no effort'. That would make me quit and badmouth the game to others...(not that i am in a top guild or have loads of runes). While people with runes and skills have an advantage, does it actually ruin your enjoyment? PvP isn't just about winning ffs, it's about having fun trying to win. But then i'm sure that if UAS was implemented and you still didn't win you'd be complaining about imbalances, GW isn't really skill based, the top guilds attract all the best players blah blah blah.

Sounds more like a lot of spoiled brats to me, but that's just my opinion.

Basically if there was no "grind" there would be no reason for the PvE. If there was no PvE this would not be the game they are trying to make.

I respect game makers for what they do. I either like a game and play it, or I don't like it and don't play it.

Personally this is exactly the kind of game I am looking for, so I'm happy with it. Coming from WoW and CoH I don't see any grind at all. But it won't be the kind of game everyone is looking for.

That makes no sense at all.

Personally I played the PvE game because I enjoyed the story and graphics the first time through .

Everything after that first time has been needless grind to get the runes and elites I need to be competitive in PvP.

For those saying it would "break" the game to make two seperate ladders (one with UAS, one for PvE RPG avas) .... How?

How would it break the game? I don't understand.

If a level playing field is SO important to SO many PvP'ers ... what's so bad about the devs doing it (dual ladder) to make us (PvP'ers) happy?

I think in truth the real problem for many PvE'ers is this ... they fear that if a dual ladder was created EVERYBODY would use the "competitive" UAS ladder to compete in and the PvE RPG ladder would be a barren wasteland. Some PvE'ers just can't stand the thought of "fair play" ... they gain their sense of pride from the amount of time they have grinded out their runes and skills ... a UAS ladder would invalidate the sense of pride they get from the amount of time they have spent grinding. Personally I think that's pathetic but that's just me.

UAS promotes a level playing field, one that is based on PLAYER SKILL not the amount of time one has spent in game collecting runes and skills.

A dual ladder is the best solution I've seen out there, a solution that will provide BOTH camps with the playstyle they prefer.

In a dual ladder system, they'd still have their "earned" advantage in the non-UAS ladder.

I understand where you're trying to say Corwin, but there are only two compromises I can see working from my perspective. Making it easier to grind and farm is not a compromise since it still would require the investment of dozens of hours of farming. The ability to obtain runes, weapon mods, and skills through purely playing pvp in 4v4 and 8v8 or a dual ladder system are the ideas I favor the most.

I seriously doubt most PvEers farm and they simply play the PvE content. The PvPers are the ones who will farm because they need those runes and elite skills to play on a level playing field. Superior runes do make a significant difference and are not simply minor at high level play, even with their health penalty.

How about UAS with no ladder, locked with ladder - what would you play?

UAS with no ladder would be pointless and would not foster competition.

Coming from PvP oriented game (UT2k4) I understand why guilds who like competitive gaming are frustrated. I bet they believe entire PvE part of the game to be superfluous just like in FPS games single-player portion is disposable entertainment and part where you play against other humans is the real game. I feel the same way myself.

Whole "unlocking" thing is just a way to make people play PvE even if they don't feel like it. I for one don't understand it, what does Anet care what portion of the game people like to play? This is just driving people back in to games where gaming is more or less in equal terms from the first minutes. After all, PvE players are not hurt by PvP portion of the game being fully open to everyone. PvE player will never have snowballs chance in hell against dedicated PvP'r team if playing field is even simply because he doesn't have the dedication nor motivation to learn that portion of the game.

And if you wonder why competitive players are so serious about these things, it's very often that it's not "just a game" to them, it's a lifestyle and serious hobby. They play to win not for fun (winning or playing tough match is the fun). These people spend hours setting up correct skills and equipment for their character so that it perfectly complements their team and then play lots of practice matches to test if it works. They do it because they want to and feel that it's worth their time unlike playing PvE.

By the way, if you think competitive people are bit odd by demanding equal playing field from the start, you might be apalled to hear that things like frames per second rate your computer puts out or your connection latency (aka ping) are points of contention on competitive tourneys. If people have to deal with unequal chances in the game as well it just won't work. In Europe hub of competitive gaming is www.clanbase.com (there are other sites too, CB is just most established one) if you are interested in finding out how hardcore competitive community works. Match reports are quite a read sometimes...

BE|Dac and Zorlag have summed this up correctly in view to skills, pve and pvp.

This setup will only drive many serious gaming clans away from the game, like I know it already has, it won't surprise me if there is no change in the design that the expansions won't sell nearly as well.

The way it is setup now, guild wars is a compromise on roleplaying and compeditive play and whilst can deliver a fun experience it doesn't achieve either best, why bother when other games will fulfil both experiences better? A pity since the game could do both much better with the base it is already built on.

Just how I seen it, I don't really care, there are always (other) games to play

I am sorry, i just don't see item aquiring to be a "Grind" topic.. it's something that should take a while in the game... Although they did make a drastic change in farming (Which i noticed from the hill giants : ( i still wouldn't mention this as a grind topic like that.... i would mention it as a "drops" topic, in where you think more drops should be coming down... And that's something i TOTALY agree on, because it's what accounts for a stable economy, and TOTALY equaled pvp...

i have spent no time at all grinding for items/skills/gear etc. (although some of my guildmates have) and yet my guild sees me as one of the best monks there are in the guild, and we can consistently win HoH if we have the right people online. it doesnt take too much effort to make good builds for HoH and PvP, and if you want to gain elite skills, take skills that are designed to keep you moving quickly and keep you alive - i got all the skills i need very quickly, and i think the unlocking increases the gametime i will play by a massive amount, as once i have finished all the missions (I haven't quite yet) i'm gonna see how many skills i can get, and maybe i will aim to unlock all monk skills, for example. It's an aspect to the game that a lot of people out there enjoy, and i think its a very good thing indeed. just my two pence on the subject.

I have never seen this question conclusively answered:

Do "grinders" really have a genuine advantage in PvP solely because of the extra gear they've acquired and skills they've unlocked, or is it because they've put more time into the game and are thus inherently more skilled than other players?

To test this, take two teams of skillful players. Have one team use stock PvP characters and let the other use their fully tricked characters. Play five rounds and note which team has the most wins. Then have them switch roles with the former team using tricked out characters and the latter using stock. Play five more rounds. If after both rounds the team with the tricked out characters wins a majority of the time then it would seem that items and skills are the deciding factor. If, on the other hand, both teams are evenly matched no matter which characters they're using then we'll know that player skill is the more important.

Unfortunately, nobody in the player community has taken the time to conduct such a test, so I don't see how anybody can conclusively say that "grinders" have an unfair advantage. On the other hand, I can almost guarentee that ArenaNet has conducted such tests during in-house testing, so it's unlikely they'll bow to the wishes of uninformed players.

I am willing to bet that a majority of the grinders in this game are dedicated PvPers. In teams of equal skill level, those with better equipment will simply win. If they're uneven skill, then it'd depend on the equipment and the skill gap. The actual act of using x combinations of abilities on y mobs for dozens of hours does not make you actually more skillful in the game and simply gives you an uneven playing field simply because you did the extremely unskillful timesink.

Stock PvP templates with no mods or acquired skills will simply get dominated by people with everything in the game unless the skill gap is large.

It's a simple intellectual exercise to see that having more abilities and runes and weapon mods than another player is an unfair advantage and is an unlevel playing field.

On a simple basis of common sense, it is obvious that Elite Skills do bring advantages. That said, it doesnt mean youre not competitive if you dont have them, or if you dont have them all. G vs G implies that every team should exploit their characters and every little "plus", even the slightest, is a must. But then again, were talking about Valandor, Clan St or Negative Zero or little less. If any of us wanted to reach those peaks, he should put a lot of time in learning tactics and strategies anyway. He should know his character/s perfectly, know what counters what, and so on.
The fact is, anyone could be fairly competitive even without them

I really dont understand the meaning of this thread. I respect every opinion, of course, even the most unpopular one, but things like these make me think that some communities are incredibly ungrateful and blind.

It means you're on an unlevel playing field. An unlevel playing field simply because of the rules of the game (with the exception of handicaps) is not a good competitive game.

I am getting tired of hearing this argument:
"If this game was about skill, then you should be able to defeat good teams even though you have less skills and equipment than they do!"
That argument is just such an obvious non sequiter to me. If someone really wants me to explain the flaw I will. Before I do, actually try to think why that argument is flawed.

Another bad argument:
"The grind in other MMORPGs is so much more than in Guild Wars! You should be thankful for what you have, ingrate!"
It does not matter whether or not the grind is minimally comparative. It still takes dozens and dozens of hours that many PvPers don't have the will or time to invest. Grind is an extremely repetitive action repeated for long durations of time. It is not doing the PvE missions. It's going out and farming x mob with y skill combination for dozens of hours.

Another bad argument:
"You don't HAVE to go out and grind! You can compete just perfectly fine with PvP templates!"
Those PvPers who have done the necessary evils (simply because they have more free time to dedicate rather than due to actual skill) will be playing with a huge advantage. A largely unlevel playing field is not the mark of a good competitive game.

Another bad argument:
"You shouldn't have everything just handed to you on a silver platter!"
Most proponents of the unlock all system only want it for the PvP side of the game. This unlocking would not influence the PvE side at all. If it doesn't influence PvE at all, why are you against it? Also, having all the skills and equipment means it's a level playing field which is crucial to a competitive game. A largely unlevel playing field is not the mark of a good competitive game.

See? That's all I ever get whenever I ask that question: speculation and hypotheticals. I'm looking for hard data, actual in-game tests that conclusively prove that "grinders" have an advantage for no other reason than having the "best" skills and equipment.

Until I see such proof, I'm going to remain unconvinced.

I think I'm going to curl up in the corner and cry, because that's all there's left to do when you've got yet another one of these threads. Christ a valid argument is one thing, but a valid argument being debated time and time...and time, again, is crap.

I guess I'll just sit here and pray.

Mountain Man, how about a top guild (which would consist mostly of grinders/farmers) against another top guild with just the pvp stock templates w/ no runes/abilities obtained/weapon mods. They'd be of comparative skill level. One has grinded and the other probably has but will just fight using pvp stock templates. I don't think that the test will actually have to be conducted to know that the stock template guild will get obliterated. The stock builds are pretty gimped in terms of customizability and the skills they possess.

*blinks* ooooohkay. Obviously simply looking at max rank attributes with and without grinding (as be|dac did) isn't hard data that shows an imbalance. Obviously the point of build flexibility to deal with available teams isn't hard data.

This would be less amusing if it didn't come several posts after a mathematical explanation of why superior runes alone give teams 10-25% advantages in their spell power.

i am a pve person who is willing to live and let live.

would you be willing to answer a possibly stupid to the pvp community question?

it is in reference to the above

if a person had a lower FPS say 45 compared to anothers 145 FPS
and his ping was double the higher FPS person would he honestly be considered at a real disadvantage?

this is an honest question for information and not any attempt to troll

if somehow you consider it insulting i apologize in advance

He would be considered at an extreme disadvantage. In a competitive LAN setting, this would be extremely unacceptable. In other venues and leagues, it's an unfortunate circumstance of life that everyone is not on an even playing field in terms of hardware. There's a point where better hardware has an extremely minimal advantage (i.e. 130 fps over 100 or just 30 ms less ping), and it can be practically called a level playing field.

I'm going to preempt your claim that you have to "grind" in real life to get better hardware and an advantage and that this is somehow applicable to guild wars in some nonsense fallacy of logic. There's a certain baseline of hardware required for a game such as an fps where having better hardware is really a minimal advantage. Tweaking out that last 10 extra fps is a very minimal advantage and is practically not worth considering.

AirOnG, now I will explain EXTENSIVELY why this game has no grind.

With all due respect, I'm afraid your argument is flawed. Take me as an example.
I'm a 24 yrs old guy who's gonna finish the university exams, I still have some time to spare, but not so much. Since I was a quite skilled and trained Call of Duty sniper, I played many official competitions in Esl (Electronic Sports League) with my clan. Clan Wars were on a pretty high level, one bad shot means youre dead 90% of the times. Sometimes we won, sometimes we lost: on a scale of 1-10, we probably were around the 7. I had to play quite a lot to be competitive, but it didnt interfere with my life at all.

In GW, you have 8 slots for skills. This way, Elite Skills of any kind won't unbalance the fights so much: practicing and playing with your guild as a well organized team WILL. Because of the sheer number of skills, what major guilds look for is adaptability. Forget about the typical 13 yrs old W/MO: he will be owned everytime.
Looking for Elite Skills is a necessary evil only if you plan to be in the Olimpus of Guild Wars. If you dont, you just have to practice and choose your skills wisely. The time spent for Elite Skills or Runes whatsoever by the greatest guilds is similar to the time spent by the 16 yrs old members of a major Call of Duty clan. It's the time spent to be the best of the best, which is more or less proportional in any game. I think it's insane to waste all that time on a videogame, but thats my personal opinion.

If you need some kind of test, I can assure you I win roughly 50% of the PvPs (depending on my team, of course), and 70% of the time with my guild. It is obvious that we 'd be slaughtered by any guild in the top 100.

Hope I made things clearer, and please, for God's sake, stop whining...

[QUOTE=AirOnG]
I'm going to preempt your claim that you have to "grind" in real life to get better hardware and an advantage and that this is somehow applicable to guild wars in some nonsense fallacy of logic. QUOTE]

if you go over my posts i think you will find an absence of cheap aftershots like that

i had not considered making a comment like that or i would have been upfront with it as part of the original question.

just to set the record straight on that

Very large disadvantage. In Clanbase cups I have played having to play like that is called "pingrape". Even if better equipped/pinging player wins fairly it will be looked down as dishonorable game, so it's a real lose-lose situation. Computer specs are up to the player themselves so that is not thought to be a good excuse for losing even if it contributed but ping disadvantage is a serious matter and most online competitions have rules that dictate how to pick a server and how much disadvantage is acceptable (often not much, in Clanbase it's 20% difference for example).

And no I don't find it insulting, it's hard to understand how competitive people think if you haven't tried it yourself.

If it were feasable, the answer to this all would be making UAS available as a specialized PvP only character.

This would instantly stop the debate. True, it would cause "segregation" but I'd say there is already a pretty strong divide between PvE and PvP only players.

It's so simple. Leave the current system intact where you can make a PvP only character AND travel through the PvE game to augment your PvP characters.

Then, have the UAS PvP only characters with their own ladder and unable to compete or trade with the "normal" characters.

And there it would be, a normal server and a server made just for people who want to hop in and play PvP without any disadvantages.

I mean, I'm not a big PvPer (although I enjoy it on occasion) and would love for this option to be present. This way the "big league" elite players will be drawn to the UAS option leaving the "normal" server with less one-sided PvP matches in the tournament - since the UAS PvP would be seen as the "real" tournament to all the PvP people.

Zorlag
thank you for the courteous answer