All the weird naked dancing people in Guild Wars.

So some goodlooking-females dancing are evil because... well... because they make you think of having sex. (what secures the survival of mankind since over 20000 years.)
And smashing the skulls of bandits (who might just be a product of their enviroment) or some creatures with your war hammer isn't evil because...?

Showing to kill someone with a hammer = OK
Showing someone burning to death = OK
Showing a female dancing in some kind of bikini = BAD

Whatever.
I wouldn't take this "sex/violence-in-computergames-thing" to serious. I won't sleep with the next women i see after watching a hot necromancer-woman dance. And also I won't kill the next person that annoys me just because I killed some virtual characters before.

yeah..i agree
release date less than a month...
im so lucky to found guildwars

im in
after all...we are all here to help each others out right?
lets show others what "guildwars" community is like(all friendly and helpful people)

I agree wholeheartedly, when I posted earlier I meant it in a funny way... after the lecture I laughed till it hurt. In my defense, it really is easy to fix by moving somewhere else or changing districts (kinda similar to switching channels on the t.v. if something offensive comes on). Everyone I hope you have a great gameplaying experience and if you see me don't forget to say hello.

Lansing Kai Don

While I can kinda understand where the originator of this thread came from, I have to make a more poinient observation. I also noticed that the originator of this thread didn't say that HE minded the dancing, only the shame from his wife/children seeing it. I also agree that you can switch districts very easily, and after release, this won't be an issue.

The ironic thing of this whole thread is this:

If your wife or child walked by the screen while you were viciously lopping the head off some monster while a fountain of blood erupted (with the appropriate sound effects), and viscera sprayed in all directions turning the screen into a bloodbath of gore, they'd probably keep walking.

I didn't notice a single thread saying that GW is too violent (not that I think GW is either too violent OR too risquee, I actually thought it was quite tame).

Why does American society love gore, but hate nudity? I was born nude, I wasn't born with a 4 foot sword/sawed-off shotgun in my hand...

my $0.02

DM

Why does American society love gore, but hate nudity? I was born nude, I wasn't born with a 4 foot sword/sawed-off shotgun in my hand...

That would be a very tricky delivery LoL

Ren

i might not be correct...
but according to threads i read, i think people are concerning about limits...

for example...
first person shooter has gore mode on and off
yes..shooting people is violent...but some people might not want to see guts and blood coming out...and body gets chooped off and stuff.

dancing naked, it applies similar rules i think
some people have no problem people dancing naked...
but they might be bit offended if they see naked warrior dancing in front of sitting female character or vise versa.(the thrust dancing thingie)

im not a parent myself...but when i put myself in their shoes...
for example...kids play super mario..
if blood, guts, and body parts comes out of mushroom man(?) or a turtle when mario steps on them... thats questionable
they might be ok for kids to see character with underwears...
but what happens if a character with underwear does thrust thingie in front of sitting female character?...also questionable

i dont know...since im not a parent myself..but it was my estimated thoughts i guess

This is a little off-topic, but the reason American Society loves gore and hates nudity is that it doesn't hate nudity? Yeh, that's right, if we hated nudity we wouldn't be the number one distributor of porn. The more releveant question is why do we think it's alright for our children (because hopefully your wife is an adult) to watch/play gorey games but not ones with semi-nude/nudity. To me there are two reasons I would allow one but not the other to my child.

1. I would (and I think this is for every man) try and avoid discussing the topic of nudity and sex to my young child. But, on the other hand, I could tell him/her that the reason blood comes out of the headless man is that the heart is still pumping. Basically, it's an awkwardness thing, the sex talk... every man's worst fear.

2. Gore is obviously wrong (well the stuff that makes gore happen) to do. Easy for the kid to know that I can't go around knockin people's heads off (teaching the value of life isn't difficult). However, teaching your kid that sex and nudity is wrong is very very difficult. How come it's alright to be naked in the bath but not in public? Is there something wrong with being naked? You and mom had to have sex to have me, so I'm wrong to be alive because it is wrong to have sex? Basically, KILLING is WRONG, sex is kinda wrong. So due to difficulty of teaching kinda wrongs, we just hope to have our kids avoid it altogether. Someone correct me if I'm way wrong here, because I have no kids (I am engaged to be married though and just contemplating what it would be like).

Lansing Kai Don

P.S. And once again, before the flamers come out. That this is dependent on the parent's belief system and it is their responsibility to decide what is good for the children. These assumptions discussed were based on MY belief system. Everyone has a different system, and therefore should only relate to mine and not try to tell me why mine is wrong or immoral.

P.P.S. Remember that making decisions based on a belief system is an act of the individual, it just becomes more important (understatement I'm thinking) when you have children. For these decisions also reflect on them and their growth.

GW needs more gore, its pretty weak in the gore department.

Here! Here! .... I second this !

The reason that North American society frowns on nudity and considers it wrong, is because the USA was founded by Puritans.

I myself have no problem with my 2 1/2 year old daughter asking questions about her body, nudity and sex. Sex is a natural, healthy thing to do, as long as it's between two consenting adults. As to when you become an adult is a different topic altogether as most parents of adolescents will tell you.

Loviatar is right. If as a Mom, you have a problem with your children watching the game while you play due to some of its content, then consider not having it in the house. I don't play computer games in front of my daughter, but that's because she's much more fun to play with!

On the other hand, I will not allow her to watch television with commercials, movies that aren't rated G, and anything with gore or violence in it. I find it much more difficult to answer the question "why do people hurt each other Mommy?" than "Why does daddy have a penis and I don't?"

But then, that is strictly my opinion.

Not all of North American society, more like a very vocal minority. When the FCC looks at complaints about a program they consider 100 complaints to be significant, but out of 100 million people watching tv it's not a large number at all. Also 99% of the complaints sent to the FCC are by a single organization with a dozen or so members so they can hardly be considered a cross-section of society.

Even the Janet Jackson fiasco was interesting, according to Tivo that 2 seconds was the most rewound and rewatched segment of the Super Bowl by far, nothing even came close. When people are offended by something do they keep watching it over and over again to keep getting offended, that doesn't make sense.

thegriffgeeks: Dreamsmith did not flame you, Trexton did not flame you, nobody flamed you. You simply took offense because they did not agree with your view, and in our wonderfully arrogant world that we all live in, if somebody voices an opinion in stark contrast to yours, they're:

A) A**holes.
B) Idiots.
C) Morally Inferior.
D) All of the above.

Everybody follows that same pattern, the toleration for which people have for listening to others opinions and deciding on what angers them is where the discrepency is. I myself have a fairly large tolerance for hearing others arguements; once you hit a point though, then yes, I'll start to think about how unreasonable (a.k.a stupid) you are. So don't take this the wrong way.

Because of the "T" rating, as others have said, whatever is currently in the game was found to be acceptable for children 13 and older by a nationally accredited group of people who have reviewed thousands of other games, so even the showing of boxers is seen as acceptable/not risque. No visual filter will be implemented, and as I said before, once the BWEs end, you will hardly see any naked people dancing around the fire anymore, though there will always be the occasional person who runs up behind you and starts his dance emote, making it seem sexual. The dances in themselves are not sexual (would the devs have put them in if they had been sexual? I don't think so), it's only your perception of the world/your "moral standards" which trigger the response, "Oh my word!! That's degrading/disgusting/improper/sick/nasty/etc.!!"

As others have said, if you come across one such display and find yourself offended by it, then you have a few options:

A) Leave the district.
B) Continue to actually play the game
C) Take a 10 minute break and then come back

In my experiences, it always seems that the people who complain about said displays and want to see things changed are also the ones who end up standing around watching the displays just to talk about how immoral those people are. The obvious thing to do if you see the dances would be to continue moving, and don't stop to stare "in horror" at the display. Go on a quest, travel to your guild hall, start a mission. Just do anything besides standing around and watch it if you find it offensive.

Trexton: I believe you mentioned something about people dancing "nude" in fountains in real life. Am I the only one here who actually knows that they would partake in such an event if the opportunity was provided to them? Seeing somebody dance naked in a fountain will not harm you for life; you'll fume over it for an hour or so, and then continue to live your life without hardly giving the event a second thought. Stop worrying about the past; you'll never accomplish anything if you can't get over something.

This post is a not intended as a flame to anybody who has laid their heart on the line and posted their opinions in this thread; I'm merely trying to bring a little bit of common sense to the table, and put an end to the bickering amongst people. We're all human beings, and we should show at least some more of civility towards each other, regardless of what we believe.

Most likely this will end up like other posts of mine and generate resentment towards me, but I'll live.

If you are offended by a bunch of virtual characters running around in their undies and dancing, then you're probably too old or mature or all around not-fun to play the game.

I read almost all of the posts... There is 1 answer

American society has gone downhill. Far downhill.

Morals and ethics are now a "convenient" item instead of a required one.

Parents try telling people how things should be run, how things should be, why the world is the way that it is, but this isn't true.

The parents can deny how they wish, but honestly, they try sheltering their children from every possible thing they can think of, when in fact, they were doing the same exact thing when they were 14-18 regardless of the fact that they deny it or not. My parents do it, all of my friends parents do it, and some of them actually realize they do it and stopped trying to shelter everything from their kids.

Watching somebody dance in shorts in a pixelated world will not destroy your childs life for all eternity. Nobody's brain is that weak to not be able to watch a dance, no matter how "suggestive" it may be. Shooting somebody in the head watching blood, brains, and matter drop from them in a game will give them what...nightmares for a few nights ? I will admit, if that was real life, or they had a real life experience, there is a reason, but in virtual reality, it is not. Kids grow up. The point of a rating is for mature enough audiences to view the material. It's a game, fake, and virtual, let it stay that way instead of worrying about sheltering the world a bit more. The more you hide things, the worse they get. Thats society, we are the only country in the entire world to shelter everything and sensor everything we can possibly find "offensive"


If you take a look around at all the other countries, true, they may not be as technologically advanced as us, and not have as many weapons, but they have a lot larger mental capacity then Americans. Japan for example, has the most intelligent kids on the planet, and their lives are hidden from nothing, they see famine, death and more than we could ever imagine in their lifetime in reality and gaming/video but at the same time while they are doing calculas in 6th grade (Not an exaggeration, its true) Americans are doing it in 12th grade if at all.

A bit off track but it all relates.


::EDIT:: I don't think anyone brought this up but guess what, the girl on the front cover of the preorder package is a woman who has almost NO shirt on whatsoever, you can plainly see breasts, the only thing missing is her nipples. If anything, you should be arguing over that, not the underwear dances.

I keep hoping that all of you prudes are joking.

Very well said Jeanette. I tip my hat to you on a post well typed.

EDIT: Also, Sheltering a child can take away from them growing up "corectly" so to speak. Let your child live and learn so they can function in the real world. Because growing up with "sexually suggestive" or "Violent" things could possibly help your child see the difference in whats right out wrong, or how to act. This is just my opinion on it. Being 16 though, I suppose I shouldn't tell adults how to raise their children.

This is only people in their underwear, not naked. I f it was full blown nudity and a game designed for kids, then, yes I would be offended as well. But this game is not designed for little kids. This (at least to me) should be a teen rating (as the ESRB rating is not out yet, or at least not that I have seen). With that in mind having people in their underwear seem fine to me.

Well, I just want to add something that not alot of people seem to have considered.

There are alot of different cultures around the world each with different beliefs and standards.

If a middle-eastern person saw a female dancing anywhere in shorts or any small part of their flesh, would be considered offensive to that culture. (I picked the extreme example).

Does that mean that they are wrong to be offended? I don't think so. Their culture has evolved in that way, and what is morally acceptable to one group of individuals is not necessarily acceptable to another. For once, be prepared to accept that other people have different feelings that are entirely valid to them. To say that someone else is wrong or should be ignored is simply ridiculous and often hides the fact that you can not (or don't want to) see another point of view.

Respect people for their beliefs, don't persecute them for it.

Hey, the world would be a much better place if people sought to understand each other rather than seek moral high or low ground and try and bring everyone to where they stand.

The orginal question was merely, should an option be provided to allow people to have a visual filter. Doubt whether I would use it, but sure ... if that is what would improve their gaming experience, then why not.

Now as to the dancing monkeys ... for me ... it lost alot of its appeal since I see it everywhere. Too bad there is not some other way that people could express themselves.

regardless of culture the solution is very simple

if it offends you dont buy it

buy something else that you approve of instead

Lol yeah, like ultra bust a move and chooose the big blue guy....a face/white sock thing busts out of the blue guys belly button when you win. It looks like a penis. No joke.

Yes, this is a solution, but I ask you ... is it a good solution? Does Guild Wars and the customer benefit from this solution? I think not. Sure ... I can already hear millions of simpletons saying ... well it is just one person, it won't make a difference to the bottom line.... And to these people, I am not sure that I can offer anything that will make you understand that sales add up when you start filtering groups of people.

What is the difference between a good and amazing product? I would suggest that it is the one that goes the extra mile and provides customising options that can work for everyone. A Niche market will only get you so far.

If MS Windows/Dos was only provided in Zulu ... how pervasive do you think it would be today? We would probably all be using Linux, OS/2 or Apples.

Personally, I hope Guildwars is an ongoing product that lasts for years, capturing the interest of millions all around the world.

I say we lock this worthless thread and allow people to post their poll on a more un-biased thread to begin round 4... or is it round 5?

It's the Energizer Bunny post, I think we're up to 5.

However, this game is primarily for the western world, those are the values and morals that should be applied. You can't expect to please all of the people all of the time, you can only make a vested effort, and I think GW has done one he** of a job

March Hare,

In that I absolutely agree. Anet has done an amazing job and I truly hope that it continues that way for a long time to come.

But isn't Korea the "Eastern" World?

I think that video games have become an easily turned to scapegoat for anything that happens. Or media in general for that matter. I'm tired of people telling me that video games corrupt the mind and lead to such and such percentage of higher violent behavior. That's bull-shit. If your child comes and kills a bunch of people at your school, there are MUCH worse problems than video games and it's your own god damned falt for not helping your kid to find the line between reality and fantasy. I'll admit it. I love violent and bloody video games. Sometimes they are so gory it's funny and unrealistic (MKA?), but I know the difference between impaling someone with my sword and then walking away and watching them die in a video game and in real life. If you can't find this very very broad and obvious line, then you should not be kept from playing video games; you should be thrown in a little room with foam walls and then your parents should be arrested for neglect.
That's violence. What of nudity? Get over it. If you're mature in the slightest you won't b**** just because you saw a virtual guy in his boxers do a Pulp Fiction dance or you saw a girl dressed in skimpy clothing running around. The only thing that happens when you aren't open with these things with your own kids is that they become confused and mis-informed. Get over your puritan ideals. The world isn't going to go around dressed in a tunic so that you are never exposed to what is only natural.

my comment that i made earlier in the thread about the original poster dancing for his wife.. well that was made in jest, i didn't realize that this thread was going to get this huge... *heh* it's amazing what people will want to talk about (not that that is a bad thing... just commenting)


as for what I feel is a good thing or not a good thing ... personally I say if a person want to dance in their underwear .. let 'em

but at the same time.. not everyone wants to see that.. so put in an option in the game that shuts off dancing and forces a player to have a shirt (or top part of the armor) and a pair of pants on (or bottom part of armor)
i don't think we have to worry to much about shoes / boots and gloves

i'm not sure how hard it would be to code something like that, but i think it would really be the best option.

I could see it possible to shut off dancing for your own account, but you wouldn't be able to make other people stop their dancing by simply pressing a button on your own computer; the system just doesn't work like that.

Like it has been repeated time and time again, the dancers are not naked, and have underwear/night clothes/whatever you want to call them on. Can you see the female Elementalists breasts in plain daylight? No. Does the Warrior have his penis hanging out from his shorts? No. Since they are clothed, if even minimally, then there's no need to somehow "add" more clothes onto them when they have clothes on already. The options might not be incredibly difficult to code, but, at least with being able to remotely stop peoples dancing, that would mean being able to access that users system and shutting off that emote for them, which would be a huge violation of that users privacy. And it doesn't seem likely that you'd be able to just make them stop dancing on your screen, but then have them dance on other peoples/their own screen.

Keramon: Would a Middle Eastern person be playing a video game where you violently and maliciously go around killing other people/creatures? Most likely not. Unless, of course, Allah has decreed that all of the monsters and human oppenents are infidels, which would then make it OK; but I highly doubt this is the case.

I agree that the standards between different cultures are quite distinct; however, I can safely say that I've never seen a person from the Eastern World play this game on our servers, and since (I believe) the game is being localized, at least with language, in certain Eastern countries (could be wrong), it's possible they could change some things to make it culturally appropriate. Until I find a person from an Eastern country playing the game at any of the districts, I wouldn't be too worried about offending another culture. If it does get to a point where more culturally diverse people begin playing and an outcry starts, then we'll see.

Actually, I go to a college with many Middle Easterner's from India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia... their Islamic, and some of them are playing the game with me. I don't know where you got that Allah would disagree with them but I'm sure they'd laugh at it (of course they may be a minority, I haven't asked them... religion is a bad topic that tends to start debates so I'm just adding this and hoping noone starts ranting at me). Islam is just like Christianity/Catholicism in that it has many denominations and stereotyping it just isn't possible and not doing justice to the individual believers faith. Their not saying getting rid of the emote William but instead have a button to put clothes on people (which will not invade anyone's privacy). Your viewing a rendered image of that person... so in theory you could alter the images to whatever flavor you want. But the difficulty might surprise everyone...just thinking about it makes me shudder with attempting something solo. I.e. the effect would be easy but the code for such a work? Unless there is an easy way I'm not aware of... you'd have to take each person that isn't wearing certain clothing (shirt/pants) check to see if this is true for EACH person in your area not just one you see right now. Then you'd have to add "default" clothing that may not be their actual clothing they had on but instead one's saved on your computer. It sounds easy but really think about it, like I said I've never attempted something in this area so there might be a shortcut.

Lansing Kai Don

P.S. I agree with Keramon, let the people voice their individual opinions and don't persecute them. This whole discussion could have been avoided if everyone just said "That wouldn't hurt, but if it delays release date. Hopefully they'll add it later for you"... Honestly, adding it, would not kill the anti-group here unless it delays release date of course . Is there anyone, anyone who argues with me there? Would adding this type of visual filter that the user is able to control bother them so much that it would ruin their gameplay?

P.P.S. Whoever started yelling about media telling the public video games is ruining their life..I agree with you but I didn't think anyone was attacking this point of view?

P.P.P.S <---Don't know if it exists but I'm doing it anyways Rowan, I said that it is completely different for each parent and that I was only speculating how I would react? I am happy that you are able to talk to your children on such a secure level and I respect your beliefs... maybe I just get insecure and embarassed too easily ?

Nah, I would probably be just as embarrased and uncomfortable if my little girl was a little boy. The way I was raised was to be comfortable with my body and I want my child(ren) to have that same advantage. It wasn't a criticism about the way others raise their kids. Goddess know I'm no saint, and I make plenty of mistakes. I'm just trying to not make too many like every other parent.

actually i wasn't saying that a button on my keyboard would make your character on your computer stop dancing.. what i was saying was a button on my keyboard would make the character on my screen stop dancing or put his/her clothes on.. you would still see your character dance on your computer .. but i wouldn't see it..
btw i am part of the dancing in your underwear crowd.. so i wouldn't want someone stopping my fun..
but just because i'm having fun doesn't mean i should force that fun on another person.

Lansing.. I would definitely agree.. adding a filter of that sort would be a very good thing..

i'd even go so far as to say.. let the game be delayed a few months while they figured out how to add it.. i mean look at this thread and how heated the conversation became.. it might be best (in my opinion) if the option was added.

Not for me I love the game the way it is now and would go through serious withdrawls if it was delayed. Let them fix it after it is relased.

Rem

Judge not lest ye be judged. Heard this somewhere a long time ago.

You cannot regulate the actions of others and what they deem appropriate/inappropriate behavior. I am a wife and if i so choose to disrobe and dance so be it. If you are offended leaving is always an option or simply deciding that this game is too risque for you and your family and will not be a part of your pastime activity.

Beware of watching the blood, death and dying and the real tradgedy of 'real life' and half naked people shown on spring break on the evening news and 'entertainment' programs on your local channels. As with the television set hit the off button to discontinue being offended.

That's kind of what I was getting at when I said that. Granted that I'm no programmer, and the only experience I've had programming anything would be using Visual Basic, but it doesn't seem likely/seems extremely difficult to program it so that the character which is dancing on one persons screen is not dancing on your screen.

Lansing: I also don't want to get into any sort of arguement regarding religion, and it wasn't my intention to even slightly make people fume over it. My comment about whether or not it would be OK for them to kill people was due to the fact that Islam has multiple verses where it discusses the killing of infidels ("Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them, IX. 5-6/Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's, VIII.39-42). But I guess that since you're not actually killing people in real life, that would be an exception. Though it would seem logical that even the general concept of killing, in real life or simulated, would be wrong.

Also, concerning the emote, I wasn't saying that they would be getting rid of it. I simply was stating that it wouldn't be possibly to turn off the dancing for them/end the emote. I'm sorry if I confused you, but I never tried to suggest removing the dance emote.

And Varuuth: delaying the game to attempt to put this filter in is out of the question. If you all feel so intent on getting this filter, talk to Gaile or an Arena.net representative, and have them stream it/add it to expansions. But you're not making a majority of the people on this site and across the globe wait a few months longer to have it implemented. We've patiently waited for our time, but there would be mass hysteria were the release to be delayed, since the game hype has reached a fever pitch among everybody who has played, and even many who have not but have only heard stories.

William , you probably have a good point there (on delaying the game). Yeah it would be best to have the filter streamed in later (if even added at all).


**Sneaks off to dance in my underwear some more**

I havent read all the posts but anyway. From what i have seen it seems people dont seem to understand is that it would just be convenient to have the "option".

I havent played the beta events. But i have played games with the same thing. I'm not saying censor the games. Just add an "option". I'm going to play the game regardless. I just dont like having to explain to people that watch me play that "its a game. its funny." I dont see how it could hinder gameplay to be accommodating to people.

Actually it shouldn't really be very hard at all, since the server would only be sending data telling each user's computer to render the character dancing and without clothes, it would be simply a matter of changing how the user's client interprets that command so that instead of rendering an unclothed, dancing character it rendered a clothed, non-dancing character.

play privately

Well in my view if all our parents got as naked as they are in this game we would'nt exist so i see nothing that would be even offending. Look too the Sims 2 Nudity and Sex all in one rated 7+ Worst Nudity look into Leisure Suit Larry. So those are games i think have it more than this can be even said. Otherwise just get use to it or try playing a game that has no characters.

Ohh... Please lets grow up big people ...I remeber when I got my very first doll and took off all her little cloths to see what she looked like ... but this...this is a game ... and the Chars are not exactly naked they have underware on and thats more then what most other games offer ... In Neverwinter Nights they made haks and 2das to see and have girls chars with bigger boobs and jiggle and men well made the womens mouth dropped they where hunged like a donkey ...so yeah this is so cool what they have been able to do with these chars I will not vote on your pole I am sorry ...I do not take offence to this and think many ppl need to grow up have fun and good god don't forget to laugh when we all need it at this time.