Beating Hack0rs With a Stick Part Deux!

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

I was asked to create a new poll- and so, a new poll is here.

Well I posted in the recent thread about possible hackers in the game ruining it because there is no monthly fee. The suggestion I had no one responded to. So I thought I'd make a poll just to see what you all think. Keep in mind im not attatched to any game developer or anything I am simply creating the possibility of bot prevention.

This would IMO help prevent a loot bot.

What if:
when you zoned into / or out of a town- you had to enter in a 4 or 5 digit alphanumeric code that was randomized by the server. So if I started a bot that was meant to go out and search / kill for items and I had to go back into town to sell theres pretty much no way a bot is going to be able to pick out the random number placed on the screen. Much like you have to do now when you sign up for many forums. This shouldnt be too difficult to code since the code like it oviously exists for forums.

I am just looking for feedback here.

I know that it wouldnt bother me to take .5 seconds to type in a random number or similar in an attempt to keep out money launderers.

Whatcha think?

Below you will see a post which upholds what I am attemping to help prevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Make no mistake, bots can be used in GW. As people have suggested, the main draw is to acrue items and wealth. As long as there exists a secondary market - your Ebay, your IGE, and anywhere else where real game items will be traded for real world cash - then there's an incentive for people to figure out the best way of grinding out items and gold. And what better way is there than to have a program do it for you?

Bots can be made, bots have been made, to farm in GW. As long as there's at least the perception that it takes time to get the equipment or the money that you need, then they'll continue to be used. The instanced system doesn't prevent this at all, if anything it makes it easier. There's no one in your instance to report you to a GM. There's no one to interfere with your bot. There's no one to steal kills from or anything else that normally gives bots a bad names. No, bots can quietly and quickly farm and pile up massive amounts of loot. And what that does, as has been said, is to wreck the ecconomy. If some people, those who can run or who can obtain the benefit of running bots, can pile up gold piece after gold piece while you have to grind them out then pretty soon, gold becomes meaningless. The work you'd have to put into getting the gold to actually trade for something of value is insanely high and your only reasonable recourse is to run a bot yourself or to run to an online auction store. The same goes for items as long. As the game includes any sort of scarcity and rarity to give those items value - if you can't just get anything you want right away - then there's going to be a desire for a shortcut. Think about how often gold dropped last BWE, think about how much a full set of max armor would cost you, then think about whether or not you'd be willing to use a program that let you get that gold in a fraction of the time. That's where bots come from.

If you think that's it's impossible or that it hasn't happened, you're wrong. Alphas have made, tested, bots and, indeed, have been encouraged to by the developers so that defenses could be made agaisnt such things. You might remember that at one point there was a hotkey to "target nearest item", a key you could press that selected the closest drop or something along those lines. There's another hotkey to pick up that item. Such things made developing a bot to collect drops a fairly simple matter. Remember that GW has been designed to run as a window or alt-tabbed out of so that people can run things like IRC or Instant Messanger or Ventrillo in the background more easily as they play, using "3rd party" software with GW isn't a big deal in the first place, all you have to know is a bit about how to program such things. The select nearest item hotkey was subsequently removed from the game along with a lot of other changes. But that's only made the job of Botters or people who'll come up with programs that will, say, let you toggle the function of holding down CTRL during PvP or programs that will ping every taget on your mini-map or help you scan for Monks or whatever else you might think of just a little bit harder. No system's perfect, certainly not one as open and accessable as the interface for GW, there'll always be flaws and gaps that people can exploit.

I know, without doubt, that some alphas, some guilds have run such bots and used them to gain an advantage. This was long ago, there's little need for such things now, but once the game is released, there will be again. Items are a significant part of your character. Gold is valuable and used to purchase your skills and armor. Don't believe for one second that farming well can't lead to success. War Machine won their Top 5 prize largely due to the fact that they had a few members already in the alpha who used the time leading up to the ladder competition to farm like mad. I've even heard fairly viscious, though I'll stress unsubstantiated, rumors to the effect that they were running bots in order to do so. It can happen, it does happen, and it will happen, if there's any advantage to be drawn from botting and other "hacks". As of now, it looks like there's going to be significant advantage to be drawn from such things, despite ANet's best efforts. The best to hope for is that they'll be quick to respond and eliminate the problems as they occur because it's getting a bit late to deal with the fundamental underlying causes and attack the problem from the demand side rather than the supply side.

Rushing Wind

Rushing Wind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Within the dense fog of my own mind

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

W/E

In your previous thread (w/ the poll), I thought what you brought up was a great idea. It would keep the game consistant and make it better for true gamers to play without having to worry about the game economy going ka-poot! I can't stand the idea of lazy bastages ruining the game for those that really want to play and make it worth their while.

I whole heartedly agree with Rex too, not that I know tons about how bots work but because it makes complete sense. It'd be great to find as many ways as possible to keep the arrogant from thrashing the games as long as the "powers that be" have time to invest (which I'm sure they've done plenty of to this point) in finding ways to prevent "hakors" from manipulating the GW and future expansions and games.

The devs deserve props though because they (I can only imagine) have put some serious backbone into putting up walls to every little thing they can think of, that would allow those that want to cheat, to create an enormous dis-service to Anet and NCSoft.

jdwoody

jdwoody

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Austin

What about OCR software? I personally would find it annoying and what happens when you're in a party and you transition? Do you boot people who don't type the number in fast enough or force the rest of the party to wait?

If you worked at a company would you really want to have developers/testers/doc writers implement this knowing that a large percentage of your user base will dislike it and there is no guarantee that it will keep out bots anyway?

There are other ways to keep out bots that don't put the burden on their customers and will be far more effective...

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
What about OCR software? I personally would find it annoying and what happens when you're in a party and you transition? Do you boot people who don't type the number in fast enough or force the rest of the party to wait?

If you worked at a company would you really want to have developers/testers/doc writers implement this knowing that a large percentage of your user base will dislike it and there is no guarantee that it will keep out bots anyway?

There are other ways to keep out bots that don't put the burden on their customers and will be far more effective...
Thanks for the feedback.. and, originally I intended to make this a new poll by the request of someone that changed his mind. However when I posted the thread I got that 'page cannot be displayed' error and the new poll options never showed up. So I edited the post to try and add the poll, but the options to add the poll were not there. So then, I tried to delete the post entirely, but there was no option to delete it, only to edit. So - go figure. I'll just leave this thread the way it is now since other people have posted in it.

So what your saying is- you want to have people in your group that are afk or simply a possible bot or unable to navigate a 'reality check' so to speak. Personally grouping with people that do not respond a lil agitating and normally they do nothing to help the party. And usually you are waiting for that slow loader anyway. Maybe not having to enter a code when leaving a town but maybe entering a town, the slash I have seperating them was meant to be either/or, but .. both wouldnt' be entirely bad. Are you saying it will take us gamers 5 minutes to type in a number/letter sequence? I think not. If your getting ready to go out on a mission with your party -- you want your said healer to actually be heading to the nearest cafe shop to have tea or heading to work? Or simply afk and when you hit the first big battle your entire party dies?

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Kityn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Michigan

Heroes of the Horn [HoH]

N/

I say let the bots try and do a mission with a party that I'm in.For one I'll be entertained watching the bot run in and getting slaughtered.In past games I made it a mission of mine to spot bots and get them killed.I got pretty good at spotting bots.And truly enjoyed the fact that I was able to weed out the undesirables.Seeing their corpses lying on the ground for an hour or more was a real treat.I've seen when they would use follow and then assist.Just take them to a remote spot and then log or find a nice group of mobs that will take that bot out.You can have all kinds of malicious fun with stupid bots.I say bring them on!

Aladdar

Aladdar

Elite Guru

Join Date: Jan 2005

I think you'll see the same type of hackers that you see in any of the other mmo's. There were cheaters in DAoC, EQ, etc... Hopefully arena.net will be as vigilant in banning those people as the other companies are, maybe even more.

I don't think you'll see the same type of rampant cheating that you have in counterstrike, Diablo, etc... because most of the stuff is housed on the servers and not your computer, but people will still try and in some cases succeed. Let's just hope they aren't too successful.

jdwoody

jdwoody

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Austin

Quote:
So what your saying is- you want to have people in your group that are afk
Two parts:

1) This won't stop all bots, somehow the server will need to send the number down to the clients, the bot writers can use this information to simulate the response.

2) This will annoy players, especially since as many have pointed out bots won't be nearly as useful as they are in other games. It will drain time away from developers/testers of the actual game, and introduces problems when you're partied with someone that is afk. Right now if someone is afk, while slightly annoying, is not a huge deal since they will transition with you.

You could almost put up with 2) if 1) wasn't there... (though for this particular game I wouldn't want to)


I think they could do away with bots completely by writing something that would randomly generate the client/server protocol and every 4 or 8 hours simply change the protocol, by the time the bot writers figured out the new protocol the bot could only run for a short amount of time before it would be obsolete. (with a bonus that your customers will never even know you're doing it!)

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Two parts:

1) This won't stop all bots, somehow the server will need to send the number down to the clients, the bot writers can use this information to simulate the response.
Again--- If its a picture of a number why would it have to send the number to the client? It doesnt. Do you not remember signing up for this forum and having to enter in the numbers in the box? If you have forgotten head to a forum you've never been to and sign up. 90% of forums require authentication to keep auto signup bots from flooding the server.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
2) This will annoy players, especially since as many have pointed out bots won't be nearly as useful as they are in other games. It will drain time away from developers/testers of the actual game, and introduces problems when you're partied with someone that is afk. Right now if someone is afk, while slightly annoying, is not a huge deal since they will transition with you.

You could almost put up with 2) if 1) wasn't there... (though for this particular game I wouldn't want to)
I am sorry but IMO that is utter bull!@#$ It will be very useful to make money annoying players by simply having to enter in a short code? Personally I am willing to take that extra .5 seconds to type in a code or whatever to keep macro bots from accomplishing their goals. Maybe I should spell out exaclty how its done so that more people understand, but I'd rather not to keep it from being abused. I think that in this case where the small efort of entering in a few numbers far outweighs the the possibility of exploiting a macro bot to gain wealth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
I think they could do away with bots completely by writing something that would randomly generate the client/server protocol and every 4 or 8 hours simply change the protocol, by the time the bot writers figured out the new protocol the bot could only run for a short amount of time before it would be obsolete. (with a bonus that your customers will never even know you're doing it!)
Here you are talking about a totally different kind of exploit- sniffing the packets and exploiting vulnerabilities within. Macro bots simply playback your keystrokes and some can random events.

I am sorry but I still think my idea is a good idea.

GuildWars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Perishiko ReLLiK

Perishiko ReLLiK

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Divine Guardians of the Soul (Soul)

Mo/E

Yea, i actually agree highly with this random number/letter generator before entering into the missions, but then again... im running on cable and normaly wait for the slow loaders anyways, so i would have time to enter the code and be happily in the level. I don't know about that many people liking the idea, but sometimes i don't care about other people, when it comes to these people who will cheat in something like this. I say arenanet makes it part of their contract readables to not sell things for real money, and ban those that do... Mostly because the people that spend their real time getting these things won't want to let go so easily, and well... if you get these items from a bot you're definatly going to want to sell it... free money with no work. I don't know what arenanet is doing to try to spot these bots, because all they are, is a program that presses a button or clicking on something based on what happens in the game, so accoarding to the little i know about bots, they are incredibly hard to spot. Nobodies going to bot useless things, so it should be that much easier to know where the "bots" are going to be.

jdwoody

jdwoody

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Austin

Quote:
Again--- If its a picture of a number why would it have to send the number to the client? It doesnt.
As far as I can tell the client is not a web browser, it doesn't pull graphics from the internet, it downloads content and uses it locally. Obviously I don't work for any of the companies involved, but I would guess that currently their server code doesn't generate random graphics and send them to the clients. This means your solution is a huge undertaking that will annoy people all over a problem that doesn't even exist yet.

Maybe if there was a mathematical proof that the squiggly numbers cannot ever be OCR'd that might sway me a little, but I think I'd still vote for more content and not having to type in the numbers...

Quote:
Here you are talking about a totally different kind of exploit- sniffing the packets and exploiting vulnerabilities within. Macro bots simply playback your keystrokes and some can random events.
Actually I was talking about bots that read the state of the world packets and generate commands to send back to the server, there isn't even a gui involved.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

We should cover the other abuse though...People who will intentionally not type in the code or type it in wrong, when you leave or when you come back. I agree with something needing to be done that imposes some minimal burden on the legitmate players if this isn't dealt with at the programming level, such as what was suggested above about the protocols. I don't agree with the typing in of a code because...

-It does place the burden on the legitimate users.

-The code entry coming, going, in the middle, what or where ever can be abused in and of itself.

-Even a graphic numeric sequence can be identified so a bot could type in the code too.

-What botting has been done by the alphas for the programmers to develop protection systems appears to have been most effective from what Pharalon posted in your previous thread meaning that botting will be so insignificant it isn't worth making this kind of effort to protect against.

So my vote would stay the same if the choices were the same, and my reasons from the previous thread remain true as the part about Jeff Strain and crew is turning out to be accurate. As was also stated by Gaile that with the streaming tech they can address such exploits within 18 hours. I tend to believe that once the servers are running they will do all they can to make that timespan less by as much as is necessary if they see such an interest in botting only because they employed the streaming tech mechanism, have banked on it for the games success, and made it a selling point of GuildWars so they know they must use it--there will be no hesitance on Aren.net's part.

In fact every time they use it they get a marketing expense write-off because the streaming tech is part of the marketing thrust--in other words whatever they spend on fixing any exploit whatsoever increases their profit margins on the game. Tax incentives are amazingly powerful

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
As far as I can tell the client is not a web browser, it doesn't pull graphics from the internet, it downloads content and uses it locally.
Hmm well a browser is very much like any other client that connects to a server and requests content. Which is what the guildwars client does. I am not saying it does it exactly the same. What I AM saying is that the technology exists to implement into any program said technology. Its not like someone has to dream up code on how that would work. Its already here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Obviously I don't work for any of the companies involved, but I would guess that currently their server code doesn't generate random graphics and send them to the clients. This means your solution is a huge undertaking that will annoy people all over a problem that doesn't even exist yet.
Again, trying to backtrack to fix a problem that is already admittedly available for use, is not the time to fix it. The time is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Maybe if there was a mathematical proof that the squiggly numbers cannot ever be OCR'd that might sway me a little, but I think I'd still vote for more content and not having to type in the numbers...
Well now you have me curious, even if you could OCR it, I think the program required to do that sort of thing and then respond by using the correct number sequence is currently technologically unfeasable. Regardless I will take a few samples of current forum signups and some from financial institutions over to my brothers house where they have a scanner and ocr software and see if it can pick up the letters/numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Actually I was talking about bots that read the state of the world packets and generate commands to send back to the server, there isn't even a gui involved.
I am under the presumption that state of the world packets are almost near impossible to decipher. Again, this is not the kind of exploit I am talking about.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Nik The Barbarian

Nik The Barbarian

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2005

Would there be a way to pick up bot movements? Could a way be created to pick up patterns in player's controls or actions (like entering the same area 10 times in 2 hours )?I would be in favor of a system that does do a 5 digit/letter thing if it picks up suspicious behavior of the sort (exclude use in arena areas), but I wouldn't like being bugged every time I load a map with a code to enter in.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik The Barbarian
Would there be a way to pick up bot movements? Could a way be created to pick up patterns in player's controls or actions (like entering the same area 10 times in 2 hours )?I would be in favor of a system that does do a 5 digit/letter thing if it picks up suspicious behavior of the sort (exclude use in arena areas), but I wouldn't like being bugged every time I load a map with a code to enter in.

You bring up a point that I obviously didnt stress enough. I am not worried about a bot getting into an arena. I am worried about the one that gets into an area where they can sell and make money while no one is there.

You shouldnt need to do a 'reality check' as I call it now. when you go into an arena or even into a mission or explorable area. I am talking about coming into town or anywhere else you can sell your wears. And being able to automate that process.

I know enough about databases that if they tried to track everyones repetitive movements at any given time or even a specified time, their servers would probably choke and die. Simply too many commands to collect and too many people to collect them from. I'd guess a terabyte in 2 minutes. And then you have to run your script to check for suspicous anomolies -As I am not a programmer.. I do not know this for sure.. but I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible.

GuildWars
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
We should cover the other abuse though...People who will intentionally not type in the code or type it in wrong, when you leave or when you come back. I agree with something needing to be done that imposes some minimal burden on the legitmate players if this isn't dealt with at the programming level, such as what was suggested above about the protocols. I don't agree with the typing in of a code because...

-It does place the burden on the legitimate users.
I agree, yet a very small burden for a very real problem that can be avoided by a few keystrokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-The code entry coming, going, in the middle, what or where ever can be abused in and of itself.
I also agree, which means the 'reality check' is doing it's job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-Even a graphic numeric sequence can be identified so a bot could type in the code too.
You may be right, I am going to check out how easy it would actually be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-What botting has been done by the alphas for the programmers to develop protection systems appears to have been most effective from what Pharalon posted in your previous thread meaning that botting will be so insignificant it isn't worth making this kind of effort to protect against.

So my vote would stay the same if the choices were the same, and my reasons from the previous thread remain true as the part about Jeff Strain and crew is turning out to be accurate. As was also stated by Gaile that with the streaming tech they can address such exploits within 18 hours. I tend to believe that once the servers are running they will do all they can to make that timespan less by as much as is necessary if they see such an interest in botting only because they employed the streaming tech mechanism, have banked on it for the games success, and made it a selling point of GuildWars so they know they must use it--there will be no hesitance on Aren.net's part.

In fact every time they use it they get a marketing expense write-off because the streaming tech is part of the marketing thrust--in other words whatever they spend on fixing any exploit whatsoever increases their profit margins on the game. Tax incentives are amazingly powerful
I do not doubt their desire to thwart the botters/hackers/sniffer/exploiters. I am simply pointing out that in the last two BWE's I played in. A macro bot would be simple to create and exploit money laundering. It is entirely possible that they already have something in mind to take care of said exploits.

GuildWars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

The entry of a code is a major burden. Have you ventured out lyon's arch to go to the seaboard? The bogs and fire imps sometimes will attack you right there. There's no time to type in a code. I need my team and I need them now. Sorry but don't give me some argument about laggers either. Laggers are far more frequent but remain legitimate users--in other words I am not going to just die because my character won't move until I type in a code while I am waiting for the rest of my teammates to load up, which also can't help me yet because they are typing in a code. Oh and that area to the seaboard or Ascalon settlment isn't the only exit portal where you can be attacked as you wallk out.

Then there are those...ug can't remember their name...They are part of the post-Lyon's Arch missions too, the ones that have the Protectors who heal them and with most groups they are far more than the group can handle. Well guess what usually happens?....one of us survives the onslaught that kills us 3 times, making every effort to rez our monk, etc. Well that survivor runs back, and oh yes, those ones I can't remember and the Protectors take chase, all the way back to where you came in. What code am i supposed to type?...Where?...Oh wait it doesn't matter I'M DEAD!

The idea something needs to be done may be great if Jeff Strain and company hasn't already addressed the problem adequately. However, then the plan of what needs to be done needs to be brainstormed more and not to just be ASSUMED not a burden because of your belief about us being in front of our keyboards as though that is only one aspect of the burden. The above instances I have described were intended to illustrate the other aspects of burden.

DarkWasp

DarkWasp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Paradise

Agency Of Forbidden Fruits [Oot]

R/A

Exactly the code is a burden. And the loot bots would zip by it like a 6 legged hyena.


Your going to have to rely on strong anti-cheats to keep the game clear of lammers.

No way there going to let a little code stop them.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
The entry of a code is a major burden. Have you ventured out lyon's arch to go to the seaboard? The bogs and fire imps sometimes will attack you right there. There's no time to type in a code. I need my team and I need them now. Sorry but don't give me some argument about laggers either. Laggers are far more frequent but remain legitimate users--in other words I am not going to just die because my character won't move until I type in a code while I am waiting for the rest of my teammates to load up, which also can't help me yet because they are typing in a code. Oh and that area to the seaboard or Ascalon settlment isn't the only exit portal where you can be attacked as you wallk out.
Yes I did venture out and quickly had my @$$ handed to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Then there are those...ug can't remember their name...They are part of the post-Lyon's Arch missions too, the ones that have the Protectors who heal them and with most groups they are far more than the group can handle. Well guess what usually happens?....one of us survives the onslaught that kills us 3 times, making every effort to rez our monk, etc. Well that survivor runs back, and oh yes, those ones I can't remember and the Protectors take chase, all the way back to where you came in. What code am i supposed to type?...Where?...Oh wait it doesn't matter I'M DEAD!
This code does not have to be entered to stop game play .. here is how I imagine it working technically:

1. I approach the mist to get into town.
2. (just like it happens now) The town screen loads.
3. Before I can actually continue- after loading I must enter this code.
4. If I cant/refuse I am simply requested to do it two or three more times.
5. If I still cant/refuse then I am simply logged out. (like the macro using bot freak you are) --Theoretically of course and not meaning you as in you personally -
6. If said player was booted out because they could not enter the code, (to prevent the bot simply logging back into the game and into a town to sell)- Then said player must enter a different random code upon re-entering the game.

Still I do not see how entering a 4 digit code is this huge burden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
The idea something needs to be done may be great if Jeff Strain and company hasn't already addressed the problem adequately. However, then the plan of what needs to be done needs to be brainstormed more and not to just be ASSUMED not a burden because of your belief about us being in front of our keyboards as though that is only one aspect of the burden. The above instances I have described were intended to illustrate the other aspects of burden.
I totally agree, it may have already been dealt with.

GuildWars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

One suggestion, if I could, is that we post to the suggestion thread that they issue new codes to their designated Alpha and Beta testers (so as not to muck up their good numbers and accounts) and ask them to bot like hell this next BWE. It would appear to me that this BWE would be a good time to do that with the release around the corner. A good way to test what actions have been taken to detour, thwart, and deny the bot style cheater.

jdwoody

jdwoody

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Austin

Quote:
What I AM saying is that the technology exists to implement into any program said technology. Its not like someone has to dream up code on how that would work. Its already here.
I understand it's possible, but I'm guessing that it's not trivial. It also opens up new ways for players to grief others. My vote goes for a non-obtrusive solution, if it's recorded mouse clicks you're worried about randomize the start location, sure it may be a bit disorientating but I think it's better than typing something in...

BTW - I fully support the title of your thread even if I don't fully support the method!

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWasp
Exactly the code is a burden. And the loot bots would zip by it like a 6 legged hyena.


Your going to have to rely on strong anti-cheats to keep the game clear of lammers.

No way there going to let a little code stop them.
I'd like to know how you think the loot bots would zip right through it.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

Okay, so I run back (per my previous example) and the party obviously is revived but we can't do anything in the town until we all enter our codes? Ug!!!! Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

So here I am with a good team, with all the elements and skills we need to finish the quest. Yet something happened, what I do not know, and won't know, at least not now. See my keyboard won't let me type to my team until I type in a code, and it's on a timer. If I do nothing it will kick me and I lose the team. We got here from the wall quest so I really don't want that to happen. Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

Or maybe my keyboard lets me talk to my team but one of the members isn't responding, now everyone is waiting in limbo because we don't wanna type in our code and lose our monk who isn't responding. He gets back, tells us "Sorry i had a phone call." We all tell him no problem...but wait...someone didn't say "np"....Hey dude, Warrior, you there? Hey we are about to type in our codes now so we can keep our team...Dude?....I guess we'll need another warrior. We proceed to type in our codes and half the team leaves. OMG I have to find another team? Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

The code is a bad idea for how the game flows. I know you like it, we all like our own ideas. The code interrupts game flow and there are other absolutely undetectable and zero burden methods that do not interfere with game flow and would be far better for the legitimate player than typing a code would ever be.

IceD'Bear

IceD'Bear

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Awoken Myth [MYTH]

Mo/

I don't like this idea. The title of your topic should be "Beating Hack0rs AND All Other Innocent players With a Stick".

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Okay, so I run back (per my previous example) and the party obviously is revived but we can't do anything in the town until we all enter our codes? Ug!!!! Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?
See now.. why does it have to be every player has to wait.. It doesnt. If you typed your code in .. your in .. if you didnt .. your not.. why didnt you? Only you can answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
So here I am with a good team, with all the elements and skills we need to finish the quest. Yet something happened, what I do not know, and won't know, at least not now. See my keyboard won't let me type to my team until I type in a code, and it's on a timer. If I do nothing it will kick me and I lose the team. We got here from the wall quest so I really don't want that to happen. Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?
Did I mis-type something in my example of how I imagine it working? Or/do I not understand this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Or maybe my keyboard lets me talk to my team but one of the members isn't responding, now everyone is waiting in limbo because we don't wanna type in our code and lose our monk who isn't responding. He gets back, tells us "Sorry i had a phone call." We all tell him no problem...but wait...someone didn't say "np"....Hey dude, Warrior, you there? Hey we are about to type in our codes now so we can keep our team...Dude?....I guess we'll need another warrior. We proceed to type in our codes and half the team leaves. OMG I have to find another team? Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?
[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head. Waited all that time to go back to town and find a replacement. To me this would be a good 'reality check' for those ready ..... or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
The code is a bad idea for how the game flows. I know you like it, we all like our own ideas. The code interrupts game flow and there are other absolutely undetectable and zero burden methods that do not interfere with game flow and would be far better for the legitimate player than typing a code would ever be.
Well, here I will just have to disagree, as for a few seconds of typing in a code to keeping the loot botters out of the game, I think it is an excellent idea.

And as has been stated, maybe they already are prepared for it.

Maybe I'll search the net for an updated macro program and see just how prepared they are myself. Since this is beta.

GuildWars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceD'Bear
I don't like this idea. The title of your topic should be "Beating Hack0rs AND All Other Innocent players With a Stick".
LOL, I'll be sure to keep that under advisement. Still if your in front of your computer anyway, whats the big deal of taking .5 seconds to type in your code? If the preventative measures are in an effort to keep out the loot bots?

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
See now.. why does it have to be every player has to wait.. It doesnt. If you typed your code in .. your in .. if you didnt .. your not.. why didnt you? Only you can answer that.
We waited because we want to stay together as a team and don't want to start the "kick timer" on one of our team members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
Did I mis-type something in my example of how I imagine it working? Or/do I not understand this.
You are advocating a code without it applying any restraints. To you we can move about or whatever like normal. But have to enter the code at some point. Well how long is the right amount of time and how does no command restraint when it gets into town stop the bot from depositing whatever it got in its storage long before it had to enter the code?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head. Waited all that time to go back to town and find a replacement. To me this would be a good 'reality check' for those ready ..... or not.
Every team I go out and die with is the ones that we go into the mission and they start running through to suddenly notice at least 30 seconds later one of our teammates isn't with us. They then call them a lagger, talk about how they can catch up etc. and then we die. See my goal isn't to rush into the mission, nor to give someone in my team a wake up call for readiness or not. I am in the mission to finish it with the team I am with. I won't go a portal or click the enter mission button without knowing they are ready. So I don't need a 'reality check' for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
Well, here I will just have to disagree, as for a few seconds of typing in a code to keeping the loot botters out of the game, I think it is an excellent idea.
As I said "we all love our own ideas." This appears to be the heart of what's in play right now. You posted a thread for input. Many have told you the code is a burden and you are dismissing their statements for your belief that you repeat over and over. I would like to see your idea fly too in a way that doesn't sacrifice the game flow and playability by a real burden on the player.

In my example, that last sentence at each part was put there for a reason: Arena.net is selling this game and wants to continue to sell them for a long time. That takes market momentum. Do you believe or disbelieve that this momentum, that has lead to forums like we are on now, will slow down over time if people start chanting "Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?"

The whole foundation of this game is that it takes the hassle out and puts the fun back in the game. Entering codes isn't fun. Having to enter a code as you move through the game disrupts the mental, the emotional tie to what you are looking forward to doing. This causes a breakup in the consistency of your experience "playing" the game--the games foundation and growth rests on that consistency. Solid and good memories of playing time without any break in flow is the only message we should ever get from the mission/exploration/battle interface.

Also your singlehandedly using a bot successfully or not next BWE proves nothing. That is why I posted that we should post to the "ways to make GuildWars better" thread requesting they do more bot testing and suggesting to use the alpha and beta testers this next BWE by issuing them a new key, so as not to mess up their real accounts and characters doing every bot possible thing they can all weekend.

jdwoody

jdwoody

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Austin

Quote:
[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head.
That is an awsome example. We've all seen people go AFK, I've even gone AFK myself (after a warning and only with people I know) Your team after a minute or two could decide to move on. If the guy dies, there is no real penalty, if he lives and comes back he can catch up. If you transition he will transition with you and be safe and sound in town.

Unless everyone in the party has to type in a number before anyone can get into town. In that case unlike your case everyone *IS* stuck. You could allow the team a vote to kick someone out of the party, but then that opens up another can of worms. The warrior that keeps running ahead, let's vote him off the team. The monk didn't heal me fast enough, have my friends vote him off the team. Set a time limit? How much, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 10 minutes?

How's this for a way around the numbers. I find an area that a bot can run around for about an hour, and right before it transitions the macro runs a program to call you on the phone. If you're at home you go over to the computer and type in the numbers, if you're at work you vnc into your machine, type in the numbers and let the bot go. Sure you might lose 4 hours at night while you're sleeping but that's a small price to pay!

Tur713

Tur713

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Pink Animal Clan

E/Me

I'm back to repost what I said last time:
I would find the numbers thing a large annoyance to type in all the time. I think Anet could probably find the abusers easily enough if they were making any worth while money. They could try to send a few messages (possibly obscure ones like, "What does a cow say?") to check if they respond, and if they don't, within an alotted amount of time, log them out. They wouldn't really even need their accounts frozen, just a quick log out to stop the bot.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

Darkmane, you don't want to know what we think then. You just want us to agree with you because you like your idea. Pharalon's post indicated the same things but also that his bots had been killed in days since they focused on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharalon
One of the golden rules when formulation anti hack/bot methods is that it must inconvience the botter/hacker substantially more than it does legitimate users. Ideally, it shouldn't influence the users at all, but if it does, then it should have a major imact on the effectiveness of bots/hacks.

Punching in a random code is increbily annoying form the users perspective, and is only a minor slowdown for a botter once someone comes up with a function to quickly extract the required code (not insanely difficult if you've got a bit of time and knowledge). The cost/benefit doesn't cut the mustard.

Several Alphas are actively making bots where they see an opportunity or need to do so, and the devs are making changes to break those bots. I've had several bots and macros broken within days of passing the code onto the devs. It's something they take very seriously, and expect that to remain the same after release. I also trust that they'll keep botting down in ways that won't impact too much on legit players.

I'll be really annoyed if I've got to write a macro to enter a code whenever I warp to a new instance
The bold portion would only apply if it didn't impact the legitmate user, and, with what you have received from many about how it would impact them. It appears the second part of the bold first paragraph would not apply as it is a far greater burden than you are willing to accept that it is and you have been told so.

The underlined portion is supported by what you put up, and supports what i have been suggesting as a matter of fact. Bots are being, or are, dealt with and we aren't privy to that. Maybe not all bots, maybe only 90 percent, but I am sure it is greater than 50 percent from what saus and pharalon both have posted, pharalon for what his personal results of his bots have been recently.

The italicized last line is in support of what you are suggesting.

In any event hope it gets resolved and I will no longer post on the matter.

Kityn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Michigan

Heroes of the Horn [HoH]

N/

Ok how about this.Have high lvl mobs randomly spawn in zones.They give no xp.Drop no items.Immune to magic and bow attacks.Maybe make them unkillable.They do not agro unless attacked first.They would get rid of lots of bots while players can just ignore them.Since bots tend to attack nearest mob.O and guards will not assist you either.That sounds like easiest to do.

Possible could make those high lvl mobs agro but stop attacking if you do not fight back.Once they stop attacking maybe have a lil time limit to run.

IceD'Bear

IceD'Bear

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Awoken Myth [MYTH]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by czymann
They would get rid of lots of bots while players can just ignore them.Since bots tend to attack nearest mob.
And when someone makes a bot that first checks the mobs name before it attacks? Lot's of work for nothing...and frustrated legitimate players that can't kill all of the mobs.

Kityn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Michigan

Heroes of the Horn [HoH]

N/

I'm not ready to give up on this idea yet lol.Ok maybe make the high lvl mobs guardians of the land or something like that.They have the exact same name as the mobs in the area.They can't be killed but think of it this way.They are looking out for the best interest in the players.I still think they would get rid of most bots.I cant see a bot getting around that.Maybe add them to the lore of GW.Like how they protect the land from poachers or such.I still say that bots in missions and such will not be feasible.You can tell if someone is botting or not.Just kick the bot out.
I keep comming up some ideas for such.Maybe make the guardians ethreal and really wicked looking enough that you would want to take a screenie.Maybe after an amount of kills are reached ,maybe have the guardian spawn at that local.If some was running a bot most likely that bot will attack the guardian and get slaughtered.Any ways I have never heard of anything like I mentioned so I'm not sure if it would work like I said.But if it could I think the idea is flexible enough to be added on.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Darkmane, you don't want to know what we think then. You just want us to agree with you because you like your idea. Pharalon's post indicated the same things but also that his bots had been killed in days since they focused on them.



The bold portion would only apply if it didn't impact the legitmate user, and, with what you have received from many about how it would impact them. It appears the second part of the bold first paragraph would not apply as it is a far greater burden than you are willing to accept that it is and you have been told so.

The underlined portion is supported by what you put up, and supports what i have been suggesting as a matter of fact. Bots are being, or are, dealt with and we aren't privy to that. Maybe not all bots, maybe only 90 percent, but I am sure it is greater than 50 percent from what saus and pharalon both have posted, pharalon for what his personal results of his bots have been recently.

The italicized last line is in support of what you are suggesting.

In any event hope it gets resolved and I will no longer post on the matter.
Actually I do value your opinions a lot. And with every reasoning behind what's been stated, I try to clarify further what I am trying to get at. I actually value your posts over many others since they often have some explaination behind the view. Regardless. I am just going to drop the subject anyway. I may create a macro bot during the next bwe just to see how it will be handled, and if I can do it with my limited knowledge, I know it certainly can be done by others, with much more knowledge. Thanks again for your input Sin.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by czymann
I'm not ready to give up on this idea yet lol.Ok maybe make the high lvl mobs guardians of the land or something like that.They have the exact same name as the mobs in the area.They can't be killed but think of it this way.They are looking out for the best interest in the players.I still think they would get rid of most bots.I cant see a bot getting around that.Maybe add them to the lore of GW.Like how they protect the land from poachers or such.I still say that bots in missions and such will not be feasible.You can tell if someone is botting or not.Just kick the bot out.
I keep comming up some ideas for such.Maybe make the guardians ethreal and really wicked looking enough that you would want to take a screenie.Maybe after an amount of kills are reached ,maybe have the guardian spawn at that local.If some was running a bot most likely that bot will attack the guardian and get slaughtered.Any ways I have never heard of anything like I mentioned so I'm not sure if it would work like I said.But if it could I think the idea is flexible enough to be added on.
Your idea is interesting although totally different than what I am trying to get at. IMO your 'fix' for the possible problem would cause even more headaches than my proposal of having to enter a code when going back to town. But feel free to keep up the good thought.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2005

The Joint :p

Alright well Darkmane thanks for making the thread again

Alot of new ground this time even with the bot revelation

hahahah Cya man

Kityn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Michigan

Heroes of the Horn [HoH]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
Your idea is interesting although totally different than what I am trying to get at. IMO your 'fix' for the possible problem would cause even more headaches than my proposal of having to enter a code when going back to town. But feel free to keep up the good thought.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Here some more ideas i guess. This would be flexible enough to add to other security procedures.Guardian mobs will kill bots.Death penalties will be accumlative.Soon farmed mobs will beable to take out the bots themselves.That would be alot of running to town to get rid of the penalty and thats when the other security can be implimented.I really cannot see why adding a mob that kills when attacked would be a headache?My point is really is that bots are stupid while people are not.You have to fool the bot into doing something that will kill it and make it stop botting.Trust me on this.I have killed numerous bots in my time.Most times using the environment/mobs to do it.
Another point is not to stop the use of bots,but to make them useless.

Darkmane

Darkmane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by czymann
Here some more ideas i guess. This would be flexible enough to add to other security procedures.Guardian mobs will kill bots.Death penalties will be accumlative.Soon farmed mobs will beable to take out the bots themselves.That would be alot of running to town to get rid of the penalty and thats when the other security can be implimented.I really cannot see why adding a mob that kills when attacked would be a headache?My point is really is that bots are stupid while people are not.You have to fool the bot into doing something that will kill it and make it stop botting.Trust me on this.I have killed numerous bots in my time.Most times using the environment/mobs to do it.
Because- Here you are creating an impossible to win situation. Which will just pissoff the legitimate players that were just trying to play the game, saw this cool looking mob, tried to kill it/ went back to get some friends cuz he couldnt everyone keeps dieing to this mystery mob. And like someone pointed out, preventing botting by mob intervention will simply cause said botter to set their bot 'only attack such mobs with this name'. Leave all others alone. Then all you need is a list of mobs in that zone.

Kityn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

Michigan

Heroes of the Horn [HoH]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmane
Because- Here you are creating an impossible to win situation. Which will just pissoff the legitimate players that were just trying to play the game, saw this cool looking mob, tried to kill it/ went back to get some friends cuz he couldnt everyone keeps dieing to this mystery mob. And like someone pointed out, preventing botting by mob intervention will simply cause said botter to set their bot 'only attack such mobs with this name'. Leave all others alone. Then all you need is a list of mobs in that zone.
Guardian mobs will have the same name as the mobs in the area.Let players know about these guardian mobs.I wouldn't want them to be a secret.lol.People will use botting programs.That is unavoidable.The more security thats in place the more upset players will get.Guardian mobs I say again can become bot proof and will make bots useless.A player that just goes up to a mob and starts wacking on it kinda deserves to get croaked.But at least info on the guardians would be available so players will know what to watchout for.It does not matter how advanced a bot program is.It is still not as smart as a person.I just think the idea is worth exploring.
These guardians can look like anything thats big and wicked looking so a player can't miss what it is.Maybe claw it's way out of the ground or zaps in on a bolt of lightning or anything.

Dreamsmith

Dreamsmith

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Minnesota

Beguine Guild [BGN]

Um, huh?

If the guardian mob spawns hostile, it'll kill any player that wanders by. If it doesn't spawn hostile, it'll be ignored by bots (who will recognize this fact much more quickly and easily than any real player can -- it takes a real player at least a few milliseconds to register that a mob is not hostile, it takes a bot a few nanoseconds to do the same).

If the mob simply doesn't attack unless you approach within a certain range, well, bots are actually much better at calculating range than people.

If the mob has a different appearance than a normal monster, this again is more quickly recognized by a bot than a human.

Bots are not more intelligent than people, but you haven't suggested anything that requires intelligence to recognize. Short of having the guardian mob ask people riddles and eating people who don't answer correctly, I don't see how you're going to make one that won't be a bigger threat to humans than bots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by czymann
A player that just goes up to a mob and starts wacking on it kinda deserves to get croaked.
But in order for the human not to do this, he must be able to tell the mob from a normal monster. How are you going to make this possible in a way that isn't easy for bots to detect, given that a bot is better than a human at detecting differences in name, color, graphics used to draw, size, aggro, etc.?

Manderlock

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

bah i do agree that bots need to be taken care off but can you imagine tha flood of angry newbs that that finds the unbeatalbe group?
i dont want all that drama comen and flooden this forum, do you