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Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 14:03 - 1

To Mormegil...

Main Entry: idiot sa·vant
Pronunciation: 'E-"dyO-sä-'vän; 'id-E-&t-s&-'vänt, -'vant
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural idiots savants /-"dyO-sä-'vän(z); -&ts-s&-'vänt(s), -'vant(s)/ or idiot savants
: a mentally retarded person who exhibits exceptional skill or brilliance in some limited field (as mathematics or music)

The name is the colorful literary term for someone with autism, a mental handicap. And you think its a compliment to call someone that?

I'm not saying anything is wrong with that as a guild name, however, under the same ruling there should be nothing wrong with We Tod Id as well. Anyone you tries to use semantics to say otherwise is being hypocritical.

Quote:

originally posted by inde
We don't ban for jollies. Locked.

We...???? Is this site somehow officially related to Anet? The admins of this site are the admins for Guildwars? That would explain the locking of every thread that criticises Anet for the name banning. It also explains why they listen to the 35 forum trolls instead of realizing that there are 500000 happy non-bitching non-complaining tolerant players.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 14:43 - 2

Send that defination to Anet, they might not know what an 'Idiot savant' is.

Then tell them how it offends you and tell them the story of your long lost mentally handicapped brother or something like that.

Edit: And I'm not trying to get the guild iQ (I think that's their tag) banned or anything but Anet should at least be fair in their discrimination.

Longshaft

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

Toronto

13 Jun 2005 at 14:52 - 3

I had an idiot servant once. She couldn’t wash the windows worth a damn, but she looked good in a lil mini maid uniform. hmmm. or maybe she wasnt female, but a male gamer who just liked the "feel" of a female character.

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 14:55 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longshaft

I had an idiot servant once. She couldn’t wash the windows worth a damn, but she looked good in a lil mini maid uniform. hmmm. or maybe she wasnt female, but a male gamer who just liked the "feel" of a female character.

LOL

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 14:59 - 5

you need to realize that literary terms have lost literary meaning over time due to socially accepted uses. it's socially accepted fact that Idiot Savant no longer references Mentally Retarded persons.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:06 - 6

Quote:

it's socially accepted fact that Idiot Savant no longer references Mentally Retarded persons.

And that's exactly why the dictionary defines it as mentally retarded, right?

That's like saying that over time the words ****, gay, etc. haven't become derogatory since a lot of people use it.

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

13 Jun 2005 at 15:08 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

you need to realize that literary terms have lost literary meaning over time due to socially accepted uses. it's socially accepted fact that Idiot Savant no longer references Mentally Retarded persons.

What? Lost meaning to whom? Still means it to me. That's what the "idiot" part means... And yes, there will be people who will argue that it is used in other contexts, but the generalization of terms and inclusion of variant meanings in dictionaries is something to be opposed - while some argue that a dictionary should trace the meaning of words as they evolve, dictionaries are paradoxically also used as references for what a word truly means - it can't be both - when you have a "true" definition that actually expands to include any use of the word then any word definition can be "correct".

CtrlAltDel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Ohio

Brotherhood of Havoc

Mo/Me

13 Jun 2005 at 15:11 - 8

i think it is less demeaning now than it used to be

but its what the guild is calling THEMSELVES, if thats what they want, who cares

btw this thread should be closed anyway

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 15:11 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

And that's exactly why the dictionary defines it as mentally retarded, right?

That's like saying that over time the words ****, gay, etc. haven't become derogatory since a lot of people use it.

What gay [happy] event, you even provided prove. Meanings change ...

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 15:11 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

you need to realize that literary terms have lost literary meaning over time due to socially accepted uses. it's socially accepted fact that Idiot Savant no longer references Mentally Retarded persons.

I believe you have that a little backwards, originally the literary term did not refer to autism, when now a days the commonly accepted usage, along with one of the official definitions is precisely that, an autistic individual.

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 15:18 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

What? Lost meaning to whom? Still means it to me. That's what the "idiot" part means... And yes, there will be people who will argue that it is used in other contexts, but the generalization of terms and inclusion of variant meanings in dictionaries is something to be opposed - while some argue that a dictionary should trace the meaning of words as they evolve, dictionaries are paradoxically also used as references for what a word truly means - it can't be both - when you have a "true" definition that actually expands to include any use of the word then any word definition can be "correct".

so you only use the term 'idiot' to define a person with a mental handicap? you've never called a friend an 'idiot' knowing full well that he wasn't mentally retarded?? Socially accepted uses for words are very very common. Take into consideration words like 'gay'...which has adapted to a derogatory term for homosexual men....originally it was a a term used to define a state of jubilance. Or the term 'faggot' which was adapted from 'fagot'....an English term used to define a bundle of sticks....Social definitions and uses change over time...to a point where the words/terms being used aren't related to their original definitions in any way.....Most people don't use words correctly...they use them in socially accepted situations....we call this dialect, slang, or provincialism.

DrSLUGFly

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

European Server or International

13 Jun 2005 at 15:19 - 12

we call somebody an idiot and nobody gets offended except the person insulted. How is calling someone an idiot derogatory towards somebody who is mentally retarded? How is calling somebody lame derogatory towards people who don't have full use of their legs? Idiot Savant is something that I think doesn't carry with it an insult. We Todd Did, seems to have a tongue in cheek "laughing at you, not with you" feel to it. I think Idiot Savant is a good name for a guild, and a clever name for a character since it not only implies a handicap but also implies a gift. Flaming Caunt? I don't know... there's nothing of taste in that really... Perhaps the mod was speaking on behalf of the GW mod team without justification, but I'm sure that the GW mod team would echo Inde's words, I'm quite sure the team doesn't ban for jollies.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:24 - 13

Quote:

What gay [happy] event, you even provided prove. Meanings change ...

Ok so then gay means lame now also.

Cause whenever someone thinks somethings lame, or stupid, they go 'man that's gay'.

So gays no longer have a reason to get offended.

Right....

Quote:

i think it is less demeaning now than it used to be

but its what the guild is calling THEMSELVES, if thats what they want, who cares

By that same token the guy named HIMSELF 'We todd id' which sounds out to be 'Retarded' so he's labeling HIMSELF as retarded, not others.

Thus the name should be unbanned.

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 15:26 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

Ok so then gay means lame now also.

Cause whenever someone thinks somethings lame, or stupid, they go 'man that's gay'.

that's EXACTLY what I mean by socially accepted definitions. Gay CAN mean lame...that's the entire point.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:30 - 15

So what point are you trying to make? That words change over time?

Fine, retarded means lame too.

Why?

Let's say Person A gets a homework assignment he doesn't like. He goes 'man, what a retarded homework assignment.'

I guarantee you he's not saying that the assignment is mentally handicapped, but that the assignment is instead lame, stupid, and his dissatisfaction towards it.

Thus the guy wasn't even labelling himself as mentally handicapped, just lame or stupid.

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 15:30 - 16

Call someone and idiot savant in the workplace and see how long it takes the by standing mother of the autistic child in the next cube to file a complaint.

But we are not in the workplace and we shouldn't have to be that politically correct in an on line game. People so easily offended by names like We Tod Id might want to reconsider their choice of leisure activities. Massive Online Multiplayer games are not really meant for people with low tolerances to disrespectful behavior or mildly offensive names, I might suggest solitaire for these type of computer gamers.

and BTW... I consider this an Intelligent and use full discussion, people freely disussing what or what isnt offensive to them. However I'll bet it's locked soon for some unknown reason, they always lock these threads.

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

13 Jun 2005 at 15:33 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

By that same token the guy named HIMSELF 'We todd id' which sounds out to be 'Retarded' so he's labeling HIMSELF as retarded, not others.

He's using a name that makes fun of the stereotypical way some people with disabilities speak. That's hardly clever, is it? Just because you are labeling yourself as something doesn't mean that won't cause offence to others. I could call myself some "Stupid F**ker". Would that be acceptable simply because I'm labelling myself as such?

Firax

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2005

The Obsidian Kings [TOK]

E/R

13 Jun 2005 at 15:34 - 18

Why not just make names with no hidden meaning at all?

~Firax

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

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Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:34 - 19

Sure, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I mean if you want people going 'hey you stupid (explative)' then whatever.

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

13 Jun 2005 at 15:37 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

People so easily offended by names like We Tod Id might want to reconsider their choice of leisure activities.

I guess people offended by cheats, bots and offensive message spammers shouldn't play either? I guess women who don't want to be subject to sexist remarks shouldn't play internet games? I guess people with disablities should be laughed at rather than encouraged to partake? Yeah, let's not enforce any rules and let the lamers out their run wild. That's the kind of game I want to play...

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 15:38 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

So what point are you trying to make? That words change over time?

Fine, retarded means lame too.

Why?

Let's say Person A gets a homework assignment he doesn't like. He goes 'man, what a retarded homework assignment.'

I guarantee you he's not saying that the assignment is mentally handicapped, but that the assignment is instead lame, stupid, and his dissatisfaction towards it.

Thus the guy wasn't even labelling himself as mentally handicapped, just lame or stupid.

not that the words change...or their meanings... Word uses change over time/global area.

in Boston we use 'Wicked' to define "to the greatest degree"..."That ride is wicked fun." "That car is wicked sweet". I assure you we aren't saying the ride or the car is "evil by nature"...

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 15:41 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

I guess people offended by cheats, bots and offensive message spammers shouldn't play either? I guess women who don't want to be subject to sexist remarks shouldn't play internet games? I guess people with disablities should be laughed at rather than encouraged to partake? Yeah, let's not enforce any rules and let the lamers out their run wild. That's the kind of game I want to play...

Did I say we should have anarchy? Your argument is foolish, chaeting has nothing to do with our discussion, please stick to a valid point if you have one.

Caco-Cola

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Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:41 - 23

We do the same thing in Texas.

You still haven't made a point though relating to the topic.

You say that meanings change over time, now you're saying they don't? Just the connotation of them?

Well isn't that the same thing?

Mumblyfish

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Blighty

Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

13 Jun 2005 at 15:41 - 24

You're all ****ed. A Guild calls themselves Idiot Savants, and you're arguing whether or not they should be placed in the same category as God of Sodomy.

Only in the Guild Wars community.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:43 - 25

Nope. We're arguing whether the name 'We todd id' should get banned when Idiot Savant, which means the same thing - except that the said retarded person is good at something - stays legal.

If you read the thread, you'd know that.

john little

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

UK, EU Server

And All That Could Have Been [AATC]

E/Mo

13 Jun 2005 at 15:43 - 26

this all sounds like a south park episode...

Quote:

Originally Posted by south park the movie

graphic deplorable violence is all right, as long as they don't say any dirty words

I imagine someone would find a British colloquialism like 'bloody hell' offensive, or the 'Father Ted' inspired 'feck' (which in itself could be considered an insult due to the comedy use of drunken Irish catholic priests).

I think the best thing to do is let people know if you find it offensive and leave it at that. If they continue to use it towards you then you know they are *insert non offensive insult here*. Don't get mad, it's what they want.

Myodato

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

WOR

Mo/

13 Jun 2005 at 15:45 - 27

I think this is such a stupid decision. I don't know which White Mantle Justicar was offended by people calling his Savants stupid (which they are - they die so easily), but it's pretty lame if he can't take a little criticism. Where will it end ? Will my account get banned when I scream "You ******* *******" at the screen next time I'm killed by a Bladed Aatxe ?

Trying to be mildly serious, most politically incorrect or offensive actions are defined as offensive if people find them offensive. As such, chances are any name that gets complained about enough is going to get banned, however tame it seems. It sucks, but it's one of the prices you pay for associating with the general public.

Caco-Cola

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Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:51 - 28

You better be careful Myodato. Your name could easily be misconstrued as Myodata.

Which is a health company who treats those with snoring disorders.

Someone may have a snoring disorder and complain and BAM, there goes your name.

Same for you Firax. Your named after a Media company.

Someone may find the filth the media portrays on television offensive, BAM, there goes your name.

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 15:52 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

You're all ****ed. A Guild calls themselves Idiot Savants, and you're arguing whether or not they should be placed in the same category as God of Sodomy.

Only in the Guild Wars community.

No thats not what is being argued, try to follw along if you want to participate.

But since you brought it up the name "God of Sodomy" came from a prime time TV series called Law and Order, when the main Char, Lenny Brisco was refering to perp and nicknamed him the God of Sodomy. I guess its ok for prime time TV but not for a On Line video game aimed for players exclusively over the age of 18 :P But lets not bother with that name for now.

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 15:55 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

We do the same thing in Texas.

You still haven't made a point though relating to the topic.

You say that meanings change over time, now you're saying they don't? Just the connotation of them?

Well isn't that the same thing?

the point is Idiot Savant no longer refers to a persons with mental retardation....that's simply the dictionary definition...it's socially accepted usage has changed even though it's dictionary entry has not.

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

13 Jun 2005 at 15:56 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

Did I say we should have anarchy? Your argument is foolish, chaeting has nothing to do with our discussion, please stick to a valid point if you have one.

You were saying that people shouldn't play online games if they are easily offended. Names that mock people with disablities is one way of causing offence, spamming messages is another, using bots is yet another. The point is that these are all activities that have the potential to cause offence that happen in online gaming - you just seem think that point one is OK and points two and three are wrong. If you think my argument is "foolish" it's because you can't understand the logical fallacy of your own point of view.

Oh, and let's be clear - this guy has NOT had his account banned. He's had his specific character banned. He can create three other characters and use those (and wait until the patch comes where you can rename characters) or he can delete his character and start again.

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 15:58 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the point is Idiot Savant no longer refers to a persons with mental retardation....that's simply the dictionary definition...it's socially accepted usage has changed even though it's dictionary entry has not.

Where do you get that idea? What is the commonly accepted deffinition now? I worked at a college for LD students and the term is ONLY used to describe autism, I cant even understand what other use you are refering to.

Mumblyfish

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Blighty

Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

13 Jun 2005 at 15:58 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

[...]I guess its ok for prime time TV but not for a On Line video game aimed for players exclusively over the age of 12 :P

Fixed. Content has to be suitable for those twelve years of age (eleven, in Sweden) and should at worst contain fantasy violence. Evidently, NCSoft didn't submit the average Tomb of Primeval Kings match for approval. Winky winky.

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

13 Jun 2005 at 15:59 - 34

Quote:

the point is Idiot Savant no longer refers to a persons with mental retardation....that's simply the dictionary definition...it's socially accepted usage has changed even though it's dictionary entry has not.

Great!

The saying 'retarded' no longer means mentally challenged either.

It means something that someone dislikes and is a way to portray it.

Such as 'man that show was retarded, the plot line was stupid and the character acting horrible.'

Now, we all know that the show cannot be mentally challenged.

Thus proving my point of how retarded has changed in the vernacular.

Thus the name should be unbanned.

And moving on.

Edit: Sorry Mumblyfish but at 12 one should full well know what 'retarded' means and they hear it more in teh vernacular of their age group to have the connotation of dissapproval and not mentally challenged than those in my age group (18ish).

At least that's what was going on when *I* was age 12. Could be different now a days, I dunno. 12 year olds could sit around reading the Wall Street Journal and sipping tea now a days.

I'll let you know in a few hours if this isn't locked cause I have to go to my job and I deal with some 12 year olds there. I'll listen to how they talk and get back to you.

Rasp

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 16:04 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the point is Idiot Savant no longer refers to a persons with mental retardation....that's simply the dictionary definition...it's socially accepted usage has changed even though it's dictionary entry has not.

Your point is no more 'right' than Caca-Cola. I've seen alot of children use 'retarted' in ways which it would not be 'mentally handicapped'.

When I think of Idiot Savant, I think of what the dictionary states it. Same for retarded. How one can be offensive, and the other not, just baffles me.

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 16:05 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasp

Your point is no more 'right' than Caca-Cola. I've seen alot of children use 'retarted' in ways which it would not be 'mentally handicapped'.

When I think of Idiot Savant, I think of what the dictionary states it. Same for retarded. How one can be offensive, and the other not, just baffles me.

/signed

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 16:05 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nim

Where do you get that idea? What is the commonly accepted deffinition now? I worked at a college for LD students and the term is ONLY used to describe autism, I cant even understand what other use you are refering to.

Dr. Joseph C. Pearce in his book 'Evolution's End' defines an Idiot Savant as a person with a limited ability to learn yet, they have access to a particular field of knowledge where they appear to be infallible. When asked a question within their area of expertise, 99% of the time, the idiot savant will answer correctly. Outside their area of specialty, they are idiots.

Dictionary definition defines them as being mentally retarded...socially accepted usage of the word allows for one to call anyone with a limited field of knowledge, in which they excel to the highest degree, but fail to achieve even basic levels of knowledge in other areas, idiot savants. One who can computate advanced mathematical formulas without a calculator....but can't form even basic sentence structure, can be classified as an idiot savant based on socially accepted usage of the word....even if they aren't mentally retarded.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

13 Jun 2005 at 16:05 - 38

"idiot sevants" is a name just as affenvise as "we tod id" howver they will not get banded as they have a special connection to Anet ( see sigil contest)

what we have here is selective banning. the defanition given is correct for idiot sevant it is just as demeaning as "we tod id" but nothing will happen becuase there are some developers in that guild.

that being said we will have to live with it because that is the nature of things.

I am wondering if we tod id got banned cause he has won HoH almost as many times as idiot sevants has and they were having a little problem with that, but we will never know.

that being said have a good day all, and watch your naming (unless of course you have an "in" with Anet)

Nim

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13 Jun 2005 at 16:08 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

Fixed. Content has to be suitable for those twelve years of age (eleven, in Sweden) and should at worst contain fantasy violence. Evidently, NCSoft didn't submit the average Tomb of Primeval Kings match for approval. Winky winky.

From the EULA...
Eligibility. Accounts are available only to adult individuals 18 years of age or older

Rasp

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

13 Jun 2005 at 16:10 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

what we have here is selective banning. the defanition given is correct for idiot sevant it is just as demeaning as "we tod id" but nothing will happen becuase there are some developers in that guild.

I am wondering if we tod id got banned cause he has won HoH almost as many times as idiot sevants has and they were having a little problem with that, but we will never know.

that being said have a good day all, and watch your naming (unless of course you have an "in" with Anet)

It's not very nice to imply things without proof.

Assume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

what i am saying is that if you ban "we tod ID" then idiot sevant shoudl be banned as well but it has not been.

that is a fact not implication

I full heartedly agree with you. If one offensive name is going to be banned, then another should too. It doesn't matter what the 'socially accepted' definition means.