Skills - Wastrel's Worry
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[bulletproof]
This is my favorite skill in the GAME.
Thomasuwoo
Very overlooked. It's almost instiontaious cast. Vey quick recast. When you've waiting for other skills to recharge it's nice to spread araound. When that annoying sword warrior is spamming attacks you can spam this right back. That damage adds up VERY quickly.
CKaz
more applicable pvp than pve
although if someone has found solid pve application I'd be interested
although if someone has found solid pve application I'd be interested
ethornber
Can someone give a breakdown of how this spell works? The text is confusing.
If the victim ends it early by using a skill, do they still take the damage? If so, why not just suck up the hit you're going to be taking anyway?
If the victim ends it early by using a skill, do they still take the damage? If so, why not just suck up the hit you're going to be taking anyway?
ethornber
Gotcha.
Of course, if you're spamming it on top of Backfire, it gives them a helluva choice to make, doesn't it.
I wouldn't say 'worst skill in the game', but definitely not in the top 10 for utility.
Of course, if you're spamming it on top of Backfire, it gives them a helluva choice to make, doesn't it.
I wouldn't say 'worst skill in the game', but definitely not in the top 10 for utility.
arredondo
Heh, it has some interesting uses if you work with it creatively. I think it has a ton of potential. Limited for sure, but definite potential.
Mercury Angel
I prefer using it in conjunction with Diversion to draw out skills, but diversion's price alone is pretty expensive. Tossing it on immediately before using Blackout is a little free damage as well.
Don't really use it often anymore though. Found the damage to be a bit lacking, when I could be using something else to shut the enemy down.
Don't really use it often anymore though. Found the damage to be a bit lacking, when I could be using something else to shut the enemy down.
arredondo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
If you apply WW to backfire you actually end up making BF worse. You just wasted energy to give someone a choice of taking 100 or so damage or 60 or so damage every 3 seconds. It's pretty horrible
True, but I had a different application in mind. I'll comment on one of several builds I'm working on in the appropriate forum when I test it more. I'd like to get some comments from you guys then.
Dreamsmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
If you apply WW to backfire you actually end up making BF worse. You just wasted energy to give someone a choice of taking 100 or so damage or 60 or so damage every 3 seconds. It's pretty horrible
Yes. Without WW, they have the choice of taking 100 or so damage or no damage at all. One can see how this is obviously worse.
WW is not a great skill, granted, but I'm baffled how BF alone is better than BF/WW? "It's pretty horrible" is a pretty horrible explanation. How does WW actually make BF worse?
WW is not a great skill, granted, but I'm baffled how BF alone is better than BF/WW? "It's pretty horrible" is a pretty horrible explanation. How does WW actually make BF worse?
OneArmedScissor
It doesn't. He's just making random assumptions as most do here.
Anyways... WW works great with energy denial builds. No energy? No problem! Wastrel's Worry to the rescue!
Anyways... WW works great with energy denial builds. No energy? No problem! Wastrel's Worry to the rescue!
Arcanis Imperium
Try doing WW, Empathy and Backfire all at once.
Get hurt for doing anything or nothing.
Get hurt for doing anything or nothing.
Raiddinn Beatdropper
It makes backfire worse, by basically raising the cost to cast backfire by the amount of mana you spend on wastrels, reducing its damage per mana ratio, by extension.
He is insinuating that someone will cast through backfire to remove it and in doing so remove wastrels, getting a 2 for 1 etc, as well as other variations on the theme.
Tsunamii Starshine
He is insinuating that someone will cast through backfire to remove it and in doing so remove wastrels, getting a 2 for 1 etc, as well as other variations on the theme.
Tsunamii Starshine
Arcanis Imperium
What's the point of fast casting if you dont put multiple bashing hex on an opponent at once?
Of coruse there's the Spell/Skill breaking abilities, but casting spells in that manner can really lead to a fast enemy death.
Of coruse there's the Spell/Skill breaking abilities, but casting spells in that manner can really lead to a fast enemy death.
Raiddinn Beatdropper
I think wastrels could be useful in the case where a target has arcane condundrum or migraine or something similar on them, limiting the speed at which they can cast things, but with such spells in effect, there really isnt a whole lot of reason to cast wastrels on the target, essentially devaluing wastrels.
IMHO Wastrels is not worth a whole lot as an ability compared to others in the Mez line and other abilities in general, that could just be me though.
Wastrels is the type of spell where it doesnt really compliment any pre-existing builds, and it requires its own build to be a spell people will consider, and even in a build designed around it then it is hard to break the spell itself.
The combination of those factors leads many people to disregard the spell entirely.
Tsunamii Starshine
IMHO Wastrels is not worth a whole lot as an ability compared to others in the Mez line and other abilities in general, that could just be me though.
Wastrels is the type of spell where it doesnt really compliment any pre-existing builds, and it requires its own build to be a spell people will consider, and even in a build designed around it then it is hard to break the spell itself.
The combination of those factors leads many people to disregard the spell entirely.
Tsunamii Starshine
Cymmina
Like the others have mentioned, I think WW is best on energy denial builds or combined with Arcane Conundrum/Migrane. Could also be semi-useful with Blackout teammate. I personally team it up with Diversion/Arcane Thievery. Eventually, they have no skills left to use.
I wouldn't say it's the worst skill in the game. It's not a bad choice for "covering" other hexes to prevent removal due to energy cost/recharge time (another good choice is Mind Wrack). I feel, though, with the piddly damage it does, it's hardly enough to make me want to risk activating Backfire (or any other domination hex). You could probably do at least the same amount of damage with a max damage cane within 3 seconds as you can with WW, assuming it activates.
I wouldn't say it's the worst skill in the game. It's not a bad choice for "covering" other hexes to prevent removal due to energy cost/recharge time (another good choice is Mind Wrack). I feel, though, with the piddly damage it does, it's hardly enough to make me want to risk activating Backfire (or any other domination hex). You could probably do at least the same amount of damage with a max damage cane within 3 seconds as you can with WW, assuming it activates.
s0m31
I think WW works nice with diversion.. well i got killed by a mesmer who was using it and i think its pretty effective.. add backfire with it and they wont even be able to use smite hex for a while since its gonna be diversed.. its a pretty nice build for a mesmer
Rajamic
Would be a useful spell if they changed it to do damage when they use a skill.
CKaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajamic
Would be a useful spell if they changed it to do damage when they use a skill.
I'm not sure you're talking about Wastrels.. the whole point is damage when NOT doing something in time..
and again PvE it's tough to make a GREAT argument with mob AI
(as I believe its built in -spam whatever you can as often as can) but PvP?
someone drops it on you, you DON'T have 3 seconds to act but actually only 3 SECONDS TO COMPLETE A SKILL. Noticed that when mobs used it on my e/me with some big casters :b lol. Now warrior no problem, some other classes a fair bit of choices. But a lot of spells take a second or two - were you ready to go? huh?? huh?? it pushes you..
So you get past one.. hey here it is again.. dang that ones recharging..
I'll try this one.. oohh slow cast *hit for damage* energy now lower..
Ahh crap AGAIN?? dang not ready/low E rush or *hit for damage*
Ahh CMON AGAIN?? ...
at 5 energy and a mesmers talent for getting energy back only fast casters/skill spammers (ie warrior/monk) might get off scott free
for that, backfire/empathy/arcane conundrum/migrain etc..
and as mentioned, make them cast slower, more powerful..
and again PvE it's tough to make a GREAT argument with mob AI
(as I believe its built in -spam whatever you can as often as can) but PvP?
someone drops it on you, you DON'T have 3 seconds to act but actually only 3 SECONDS TO COMPLETE A SKILL. Noticed that when mobs used it on my e/me with some big casters :b lol. Now warrior no problem, some other classes a fair bit of choices. But a lot of spells take a second or two - were you ready to go? huh?? huh?? it pushes you..
So you get past one.. hey here it is again.. dang that ones recharging..
I'll try this one.. oohh slow cast *hit for damage* energy now lower..
Ahh crap AGAIN?? dang not ready/low E rush or *hit for damage*
Ahh CMON AGAIN?? ...
at 5 energy and a mesmers talent for getting energy back only fast casters/skill spammers (ie warrior/monk) might get off scott free
for that, backfire/empathy/arcane conundrum/migrain etc..
and as mentioned, make them cast slower, more powerful..
arredondo
Excellent post CKaz. I also noticed the same thing in that the spell needed to complete itself, but I'm using it differently than with backfire.
However, if you DO match it with backfire turned on first, it still can be more powerful a combination than people give it credit for. Take the info mentioned above about the skill needing to finish if WW is to be dispelled, then add the little acknowledged fact that Backfire does NOT dispell when it is triggered!
If someone casts a non anti-hex spell while under backfire, they will get tagged for the big damage, and Backfire remains on them to snuff out the next spell too. This is GREAT because if you cast BF, WW and they don't get their spell off in time (say it is Balthazar's Spirit, a 2 sec. spell), they will get hit by both Wastrel's Worry and then Backfire for combo 172 damage!
Not only that, Backfire remains on for another snuff opportunity if you cast WW again. Let's say this time they are able to stop WW this second time, Backfire takes another 119 chunk (at Lvl 12) for a total of 291 damage in that 10 second span. During that time you've casted three times and used only 25E. From that, you can build around it if you're going for max damage.
Now, let's say you began that skirmish with some nice Degen spells before Backfire. For my MeNe, I can open up with Life Siphon and Life Transfer (E) for -10 Degen (and +10 Regen, heh) in under 4 seconds of casting time (with decent FC points).
Next might be Archane Conumdrum to slow down their casts, which helps the WW/BF combo muy mucho. Now I can cast Backfire, Wastrel's Worry. If they both connect along with the Degen, things are looking pretty good (450 at least).
In this unbalanced but damaging build, you can also add to the tail end of this attack sequence by casting the 2nd WW before Backfire ends. Regardless of it connecting or not, have Energy Burn ready for a quick 80 point hit.
All of this is some good damage in 15 seconds or so (500+ in the best of scenarios), Nothing game breaking by any means, but on a Monk, at least he keeps his eyes on his own butt instead of helping others. Els will react with concern as well I'd bet.
You don't want to use all of these options I'd bet because you'd be too focused on one play strategy. Also, anti-hex builds and the like can hurt it a bit, but this BF/WW combo is unique in that it attacks people who try to attack it, lol. Not perfect, but far from worthless.
However, if you DO match it with backfire turned on first, it still can be more powerful a combination than people give it credit for. Take the info mentioned above about the skill needing to finish if WW is to be dispelled, then add the little acknowledged fact that Backfire does NOT dispell when it is triggered!
If someone casts a non anti-hex spell while under backfire, they will get tagged for the big damage, and Backfire remains on them to snuff out the next spell too. This is GREAT because if you cast BF, WW and they don't get their spell off in time (say it is Balthazar's Spirit, a 2 sec. spell), they will get hit by both Wastrel's Worry and then Backfire for combo 172 damage!
Not only that, Backfire remains on for another snuff opportunity if you cast WW again. Let's say this time they are able to stop WW this second time, Backfire takes another 119 chunk (at Lvl 12) for a total of 291 damage in that 10 second span. During that time you've casted three times and used only 25E. From that, you can build around it if you're going for max damage.
Now, let's say you began that skirmish with some nice Degen spells before Backfire. For my MeNe, I can open up with Life Siphon and Life Transfer (E) for -10 Degen (and +10 Regen, heh) in under 4 seconds of casting time (with decent FC points).
Next might be Archane Conumdrum to slow down their casts, which helps the WW/BF combo muy mucho. Now I can cast Backfire, Wastrel's Worry. If they both connect along with the Degen, things are looking pretty good (450 at least).
In this unbalanced but damaging build, you can also add to the tail end of this attack sequence by casting the 2nd WW before Backfire ends. Regardless of it connecting or not, have Energy Burn ready for a quick 80 point hit.
All of this is some good damage in 15 seconds or so (500+ in the best of scenarios), Nothing game breaking by any means, but on a Monk, at least he keeps his eyes on his own butt instead of helping others. Els will react with concern as well I'd bet.
You don't want to use all of these options I'd bet because you'd be too focused on one play strategy. Also, anti-hex builds and the like can hurt it a bit, but this BF/WW combo is unique in that it attacks people who try to attack it, lol. Not perfect, but far from worthless.
AristonCC
I love using this skill along with Shatter Hex. Instead of wasting a Mesmer hex against the enemy, you can throw on WW and then immediately fire off Shatter Hex causing at least some damage.
StandardAI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
uh..what? Do a better job of trolling please.
Dreamsmith: I'll go into detail here.
Backfire:
For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell that foe takes 35-119 damage.
Energy Cost
15
Casting Time
3 seconds
Recharge Time
20 seconds
Wastrel's Worry
Description
After 3 seconds, target foe takes 8-53 damage. Wastrel's Worry ends prematurely if that foe uses a skill.
Energy Cost
5
Casting Time
1/4 seconds
Recharge Time
1 seconds
If you apply both to the same target you've just changed the conditional damage on both spells into guaranteed damage on the conditions of the opponent not using a skill. The opponent can break WW by using a non-spell ability and wait out BF while you continue to try and pile on another WW.
But assuming they didnt, you've just spent 20 energy and 4.75 seconds of casting time to give the opponent a choice of(at 12 dom): 53 damage every 3 seconds or 119 damage every x+.75 seconds where x is the casting time. I'm sure anyone would pick taking ~17.6 dps over at best 119 dps.
Wastrels Worry is horrible in energy denial builds because now you're locking into one target on the hopes that they can do nothing. And a guy that can do nothing is out of the picture so throwing around 5 energy hexes just doesn't help anymore. It's the same reason Mind Wrack, and all those other Elementalist Mind skills are terrible. Actually you lay wastrels over it to make sure that backfire DOES NOT get removed from remove hex, obviously. The point here is to stop a monk from healing for 10 seconds, allowing the rest of your team to kill the target.
Dreamsmith: I'll go into detail here.
Backfire:
For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell that foe takes 35-119 damage.
Energy Cost
15
Casting Time
3 seconds
Recharge Time
20 seconds
Wastrel's Worry
Description
After 3 seconds, target foe takes 8-53 damage. Wastrel's Worry ends prematurely if that foe uses a skill.
Energy Cost
5
Casting Time
1/4 seconds
Recharge Time
1 seconds
If you apply both to the same target you've just changed the conditional damage on both spells into guaranteed damage on the conditions of the opponent not using a skill. The opponent can break WW by using a non-spell ability and wait out BF while you continue to try and pile on another WW.
But assuming they didnt, you've just spent 20 energy and 4.75 seconds of casting time to give the opponent a choice of(at 12 dom): 53 damage every 3 seconds or 119 damage every x+.75 seconds where x is the casting time. I'm sure anyone would pick taking ~17.6 dps over at best 119 dps.
Wastrels Worry is horrible in energy denial builds because now you're locking into one target on the hopes that they can do nothing. And a guy that can do nothing is out of the picture so throwing around 5 energy hexes just doesn't help anymore. It's the same reason Mind Wrack, and all those other Elementalist Mind skills are terrible. Actually you lay wastrels over it to make sure that backfire DOES NOT get removed from remove hex, obviously. The point here is to stop a monk from healing for 10 seconds, allowing the rest of your team to kill the target.
Pharalon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
why not just get rid of their hex removal options by targetting the people removing hexes.
Indeed. Hex removals are some of the juciest targets for interrupts a monk will carry. 2-3 second cast, and you know that backfire will draw it out almost without fail. Why waste time and energy buffering an already suppressed opponent with a useless hex when you could be using the interrupt of your choice (concussion shot in particular on the long casts) on a fresh target?
You may be able to do something with WW in combo with Soul Barbs, but even then I'd guess it would be very marginal. I'm yet to see a solid argument in favour fo this skill. Incidental damage to suppressed targets doesn't excite me overly much.
You may be able to do something with WW in combo with Soul Barbs, but even then I'd guess it would be very marginal. I'm yet to see a solid argument in favour fo this skill. Incidental damage to suppressed targets doesn't excite me overly much.
silvertemplar
Quote:
So in short, i would only use WW combined with Shatter Delusions , or i would use it to cover up another hex which i don't want to be removed instantly [as was mentioned above] In both cases the actual damage of WW does not even come into the equation, just a bonus if it does go off.
Itbegins
ok guys ima give a hint for pvp that owns and pve i should get money for this i have full details on how it works but to get it started....Soul Barbs....Wastrels worry
Cymmina
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itbegins
ok guys ima give a hint for pvp that owns and pve i should get money for this i have full details on how it works but to get it started....Soul Barbs....Wastrels worry
Have you actually tried this or is this TheoryCraft? I thought the same thing. Used Soul Barbs and loaded up on hexes. I even tried spamming WW to trigger SB more often. It was the least impressive damage I've ever seen.
Itbegins
yeap doing mesmer domination with second class necro owns with this.
monk
soul barb, backfire, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel Shatter delusion. Dead..........
Warrior
Soul barb,empathy, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, shatter delusion...Dead
monk
soul barb, backfire, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel Shatter delusion. Dead..........
Warrior
Soul barb,empathy, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, shatter delusion...Dead
Jijimuge
ItBegins, you do realise that Shatter Delusions has been changed, don't you?
It used to be "Shatter all mesmer hexes", but now it only shatters the most recent one.
Also, each copy of wastrel's will not stack on top of the previous one, so all you're doing is refreshing the hex or resinstating it if it's either ended with damage or ended by virtue of the target using a skill. Because wastrel's lasts 3 seconds, I can't see you managing to have 4 wastrel's inflict damage before backfire expires unless the target is stupid enough to repeatedly cast through backfire.
If you're going mesmer primary, then the max skill you can have in curses is 12 (barring a +1 20% of the time, but we'll ignore that).
That means that when each hex is cast it'll inflict 27 extra damage....which isn't great for spike damage. Soul barbs has another use, which is to discourage someone from casting enchantments on themself. Because the damage is so low, I don't really think it does this very well, either, mind you. A better option vs enchantments is, of course, the enchantment removal spells, which often have an upside, such as shatter enchantment inflicting fairly hefty damage.
Remember also that wastrel's takes a few seconds to fire off its damage so chain casting 4 wastrel's is unlikely to be very effective.
It used to be "Shatter all mesmer hexes", but now it only shatters the most recent one.
Also, each copy of wastrel's will not stack on top of the previous one, so all you're doing is refreshing the hex or resinstating it if it's either ended with damage or ended by virtue of the target using a skill. Because wastrel's lasts 3 seconds, I can't see you managing to have 4 wastrel's inflict damage before backfire expires unless the target is stupid enough to repeatedly cast through backfire.
If you're going mesmer primary, then the max skill you can have in curses is 12 (barring a +1 20% of the time, but we'll ignore that).
That means that when each hex is cast it'll inflict 27 extra damage....which isn't great for spike damage. Soul barbs has another use, which is to discourage someone from casting enchantments on themself. Because the damage is so low, I don't really think it does this very well, either, mind you. A better option vs enchantments is, of course, the enchantment removal spells, which often have an upside, such as shatter enchantment inflicting fairly hefty damage.
Remember also that wastrel's takes a few seconds to fire off its damage so chain casting 4 wastrel's is unlikely to be very effective.
arredondo
I have a build that I will test based on his WW setup. If you misunderstand what Itbegins is describing, I try to expand on it here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=25610
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=25610
elenna
This spell totally confuses me. I have it cast on me all the time by mobs and no matter what I do (cast a spell, do nothing, or just attack with my wand) I take damage. I've noticed that when I use a spell the spell ends prematurely, but I still take the damage. Is this broken?
arredondo
If you used a spell and were hurt, Backfire is what did the damage, not WW.
elenna
But is says right next to the damage that it was Wastrel's Worry that did it. It is those Reed Stalkers right outside Temple of Ages that cast it on me. I haven't seen them cast Backfire.
arredondo
Then the problem is the cast time (and your input timing) of the skill you used. It has to completely finish casting to dispell WW. If you started a 2-second spell when WW activation time is down to 1 second, you'll get smacked.
elenna
Well, that makes sense. I didn't think about the cast time. I'll experiment with it more tonight to see if that makes a difference.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Mercury Angel
Using Wastrel's Worry happily now after all again.
Hex Breaker bait.
Hex Breaker was improved with release, or possibly prior to that, not really sure, and is cheap and effective to use. Many mesmers start the battle with backfire, but if you do that against a Mo/Me, I highly doubt it's going to stick.
Many many people these days with Mesmer primary or secondary are packing Hex Breaker.
So I toss on Wastrel's Worry twice, once to check if they have it, and if so, to break the stance, and then once again to break the re-used stance, since it lasts so long they can recast it instantly after the first break.
And then it also does have its uses outside of that, even if limited, so I'm content.
Hex Breaker bait.
Hex Breaker was improved with release, or possibly prior to that, not really sure, and is cheap and effective to use. Many mesmers start the battle with backfire, but if you do that against a Mo/Me, I highly doubt it's going to stick.
Many many people these days with Mesmer primary or secondary are packing Hex Breaker.
So I toss on Wastrel's Worry twice, once to check if they have it, and if so, to break the stance, and then once again to break the re-used stance, since it lasts so long they can recast it instantly after the first break.
And then it also does have its uses outside of that, even if limited, so I'm content.
Rajamic
I was doing something similar to that last night. But I was using Arcane Conundrum as the test hex. If I happen to hit them where they have Hex Breaker up and recharged at the same time, this doesn't work. On the other hand, Conundrum is more useful for other purposes than Wastrel's.
Disoblige
Itbegins - June 26, 2005 - 12:50 pm [ Reply | Edit/Delete ]
yeap doing mesmer domination with second class necro owns with this.
monk
soul barb, backfire, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel Shatter delusion. Dead..........
Warrior
Soul barb,empathy, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, shatter delusion...Dead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenerio against good warrior.
-Most warrior has anti hex and conditions.
-They will remove soul barb and empathy. (common W/Mo)
-They will get close to the mesmer and toss them around in the ground.
Mesmer doesn't stand a chance!!!
In 15 sec mesmer is dead. Whack
Scenerio against good monks.
-You expect to get close to a monk and spam them with hexes ?
-Backfire won't work. They have signets that remove hex and conditions. Signets isn't a spell.
-Wastrel's Worry will not have effect since monks contantly use skills.
Final Comment. Lol.. you need 60 energy to use this. You can use this combo once per 50 seconds. this is not effiecient. Try in GvG or tournaments. Waste of energy!!
yeap doing mesmer domination with second class necro owns with this.
monk
soul barb, backfire, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel Shatter delusion. Dead..........
Warrior
Soul barb,empathy, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, wastrel, shatter delusion...Dead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scenerio against good warrior.
-Most warrior has anti hex and conditions.
-They will remove soul barb and empathy. (common W/Mo)
-They will get close to the mesmer and toss them around in the ground.
Mesmer doesn't stand a chance!!!
In 15 sec mesmer is dead. Whack
Scenerio against good monks.
-You expect to get close to a monk and spam them with hexes ?
-Backfire won't work. They have signets that remove hex and conditions. Signets isn't a spell.
-Wastrel's Worry will not have effect since monks contantly use skills.
Final Comment. Lol.. you need 60 energy to use this. You can use this combo once per 50 seconds. this is not effiecient. Try in GvG or tournaments. Waste of energy!!
Disoblige
Sorry for my poor grammar. I am not fluent in english.
crabula
Infact, after 3 seconds the enemy still takes damage even when they haven;t used a skill. Just wanted to point that out.
firstwave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
If you apply WW to backfire you actually end up making BF worse. You just wasted energy to give someone a choice of taking 100 or so damage or 60 or so damage every 3 seconds. It's pretty horrible
It is actually like this. If you cast Backfire on an elementalist, she would immediately stop casting spells and probably wait for Backfire to end. If you cast WW on her after Backfire, she would take the WW damage about 3 times before Backfire is over. That is why WW on top of Backfire owns casters.