Please Arena.net... stop the discrimination against PvP players

drowningfish999:

See my friend, you have a well reasoned approach.... why show a preference over one or the other, right? Well, there are three options for Arena.net:

1) Take the PvP side, and allow them access to that portion of the game from the moment they open an account, and not force them to do any adventuring if they don't want to. PvE players, conversly, must play over 300+ hours of PvP for full PvE access. They didn't do that, that would be wrong.

2) Take the PvE side, and allow them access to that portion of the game from the moment they open an account, and not force them to do any vs. battles if they don't want to. PvP players, conversly, must play at least 300+ hours of PvE for full PvP access. They DID do that, and that IS wrong.

3). Compromise! Allow character growth through adventuring the entire PvE game: complete all missions, bonuses, queests, capture all skills and elites). Once they finish that ONE TIME, allow full access to PvP! With a 80-100 hour investment to do all of this in PvE, how can anyone say that's not fair? Forcing any repetition for enjoying an unrelated portion of the game is a grind... they saw that with the recent infuse run consolidation changes, so perhaps there is hope.

at the moment I am fully PvE and I fully agree with the OP. I will probably play and enjoy PvP eventually, but to continue the CS example.

I loved Half-Life 2, playing HL2 Multi however, I hated it... it got very annoying, boring, it just isn't my style of game (those who can say that without positing values get 2 thumbs up! So if I had to win 100 HL2 multi games in order to play out the HL2 storyline I never would have done it. Likewise here, though I'll get into the PvP eventually, if I had to do it to play PvE then I wouldn't play PvE because either I'd get straight hooked on PvP or so annoyed with trying to do it over and over that I'd give up. (maybe not, but surely you can see the point here)

I have absolutely NO problem with PvP. I spend half my time doing PvE the other half PvP. I'd look forward to the game being more revolved around pvp for a storyline. I'd eat it up. I'd also still be out there actually playing the game to earn my skills and you'd still be crying about it.

Actually if you've ever succeeded in PvP you'd know you can't do everything and expect to be good. Are you the guy that goes into the tombs with henchies thinking he has a chance? The thing about Guild Wars is that there is no UBER build for 1 player. You have to find your area and stick with it, it's up to your team to fill in the holes. Actually if you were more of a PvPer, you'd know that it's up to you to fill in the holes of your team. Can we please stop crying about this?

The hostility that some of these posters have towards people who take part in PvP is really strange.

Arredondo, your points are well reasoned and convincing. Anyone arguing with you either exhibits an inability to understand your points, or some strange, ingrained predjudice against PvP. I really can't understand it, but there's obviously no point in continuing to argue with these people.

Just read back through all the comments. It's really just kind of sickening that this is what Guild Wars's community has turned into.

We don't want to play PvE, you don't want to play PvP. The only funny thing here is that we understand, you on the other hand, do not.

[qoute]3. It's there. I've ascended 2 characters and by the time I was level 20, I had almost all of my skills for both characters. I was only missing elites which I've been grabbing about 2 a day for the last week or so. And I only play about 2 hours a day when I work and maybe 4 on days I don't work.[/quote]

You have roughly 260+ skills unlocked playing 2 hours a day? You also the king of Russia? Wow, and 3 olympic gold medals!

We already did play it all buddy, and now we have to play it again, and again, and again, and probably one more time after that. Saying PvP makes up less than 10% of the game suggests that you've never done it. Untill you have don't talk about things of which you have absolutely no idea.

You're right, the PvE world is big and then want us to play it. And the darndest thing happened the other day, we DID play it and it WAS big. I never want to see it again. You're also correct by saying the PvE world is 90% of the content that is given to you as the PvP arenas are quite small. Of course, by that logic we could say that de_dust is only 10% of Counter Strike. (if you don't know, dust is probably the map with the most total hours played and is a sort of cornerstone to CS)

The only people who say "sperate the game" are the little ones in your head. Nobody wants to seperate the game, we just don't want to forever sit in the hamster wheel called PvE. There's a big cage to be experienced out there.

They do, its called PvP; you don't have to play it.

Yes, I need them all. If I don't have a certain skill that may mean I can't play the 8 man build I want to. Guild Wars is about variety and options.

Because it makes me better than or equal to the other guy.

An advantage is an advantage, you'd be a fool not to take it. Yes, they only make the slightest advantage, but sometimes thats enough.

You can win the first few rounds of tombs with henchies. At least give crediable credibility.

Having everything unlocked allows flexibility and power. Why do you want the best parts on a racecar? They only offer marginal advantages.

Go play WoW if all you want to do is PvE. I have yet to hear a reason why aiding the PvP game will ruin the PvE. (more at end)

First off, you're an idiot.

You're dead wrong, but feel free to defend that.

Uh, I want about 450 skills. I think that may take a while...

This isn't a MMORPG. Grind is anything you do more than once (roughly). Just because you spent the last 5 years of your life getting some leet EQ gear doesn't mean I want to. As you may of guessed, I play FPS games primarily, however I also played way to much Diablo 2. I already farmed my ass of in D2, I don't want to do it again. Time scale doesn't matter, if you're doing some inane repetitive junk, its grind. If you disagree, try to unlock every superior rune. When you get them all give me a call, provided that is, that neither of us die in the next 10 years that the aforementioned quest will take.

There is controversey that UAX will cheapen PvE as there will be no reward system etc. I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree, however I will let you think on this:

Take the game "Red Faction" for example, it has a mildly good single player (PvE) and a really nice multiplayer (PvP. As with any FPS, you progress through the game and get new weapons etc. Of course, when you play multiplayer you can use any gun, regardless of your position in the singleplayer game. Do you feel cheated when you play MP that some other guy completely skipped the SP section of the game? Does it anger you that "he doesn't have experience with the weapons" and "didn't work to get them?"

In anticipation for flames, I will say the line gets a little fuzzy here because GW is a single game, not 2. However, is not the character you finish SP with the same as the one you play MP with? (PvE char in PvP) The guy who didn't play SP can't barge into your SP game with his decked out MP char. (PvP onlys are just that; PvP only) How would UAX really effect a PvE player?

The bottom line is: it doesn't. There may be some phsycological barrier here that doesn't allow you to accept the above mentioned scenario in Guild Wars because you had to grind (oops, what was that?) to get your PvE equipment. Even if you believe that the PvPer has an advantage over you (with UAX he probably would) there is nothing stopping you from making a PvP char of your own IDENTICLE to your PvE. Hmm... no roleplay loss there.

I'm interested to hear your responces. Make 'em civil and make sure you read the whole thing.

-Tuna, member of DrkH

edit: Tiedye: there is hostility (as seen in my own post here) toward PvE people because we show them our side in well explained posts nearly every single day and yet the still blabber on nonintelligently. Our patience is wearing thin.

Well I need to apologize for coming off harsh, but I defend BOTH sides of the game. I'm involved in each. But for people to throw a complete fit because they sampled something in beta and it's not that way for the actual game is ridiculous. People need to look at things objectively, yes a PvP'er can disagree with you.

I don't totally disagree with having all the skills unlocked, BUT, I'm against it for Guild Battles. I think if you're gonna be ranked on it, you should have earned the skills that got you there. Now if it's the tombs or competition arenas, yeah, give me them skills. I don't feel left out or anything because finding skills is something we all have to go thru.

I find the PvE environment enjoyable with a decent storyline, however I'm far too competitive to just focus on PvE for very long. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way, but I don't think anyone is being discriminated against. IMO the only thing I would change is some of the Guild Hall layouts which I'm sure will happen in the future. In the meantime can't we all TRY to enjoy the game?

The 'mirror' examples like "you have to win a few hundred billion PvP matches against ueber aliens that kill you with just looking at you" to get to the next EA.

OMG.
You guys are funny.

And you are just so narrow minded. Why? I'll tell you.
You only see PvP. And that's it. It is nice, that you see at least a bit, but there is also PvE and PvE/PvP. All your (or most of your) suggestions would just upset the people the game was designed for: the PvE/PvP people.

These are the people that enjoy to play through PvE and then battle each other with their toons in PvP. Consider this people and rethink your 'solutions':

Unlock All Skills when finishing the game:
It would defeat the purpose of replaying the game. So you effectively killed the PvE part.

Unlock All Skills for PvP only chars:
Great. No every PvE player has to throw his toon in the garbage to be competetive? And I don't mean because of all the skills the PvP player has, but of the flexibility. A PvP only char at the moment is quite flexible, but because the skills need to be unlocked, the flexibility is not that big. So just a slight advantage for PvP only here, which is fine.

Separate PvP and PvE for a UAS - League:
It is one game and not 2. You would upset all PvE players.

More Skillpoints needed:
Yes indeed. But anet is working on it. And the last update (fixed xp needed for lvl up) is great. Just go a few times thorugh the underworld and you'll have a lot of skill points.
Maybe the SoC should cost 0 skillpoints, maybe, I don't know. But anet is working on it, so no need to whine here

I don't want to run through this game a hundred times:
You don't need to. You can unlock the most important skills for 4 classes. So you have quite a bit of flexibility to play around in PvP.
I also don't think that you truly need all skills per class. And I don't think you can master any class combination so easily. Of course, there are really good people who can - and for them (be best 5% of guild wars players) every single skill count, but I can hardly believe that so many people are that good.

And just a thought: take a sunday afternoon with some of your friends and run a char through the game. Just do the missions and ignore the bonus - you'll ascend in the evening. So you got about 20 more skill points. Of course, this is grind, but it isn't really bad. It is like "hey, I want that nice armour - oh, it costs a millionen bucks? mhm, I got to go farming". Sometimes it needs work to get what you want. You don't NEED all the skills, you don't NEED to have all that stuff - it is nice to have (no doubt) but you really don't NEED it. You can put afford in it to get it (and let's face it: the afford required is very low).

Of course, it can be made easier for you. But please, please, please, please stop saying "there is no drawback if we do X", because there IS one. A major drawback. You are just too narrow minded (or careless) to see it. Just don't be focused on: "how can we make PvP better" try to focus on "how can we make GW better".

I played one beta event, and only tried PvE. This is all about common sense, like a coach not requiring a player to play three rounds ping-pong before putting him into the football game.

I just got through a full month thoroughly enjoying my slow trek through PvE. I all but ignored PvP knowing it would be there when I was ready. I've had more fun in PvE than just about any other non-competitive videogame for at least 5 years. More than Half-Life 2, console titles, you name it. This game is awesome and I can't wait for the PvE expansion pak.... BUT! I'm done with it. Leave me and PvP in peace please!

Tonight I am almost banging my head against the wall because I'm AGAIN out of Attribute Refund points and I have a dozen or so builds I want to test in arena. I work in the morning and almost half my time tonight is WASTED, grinding out in the desert trying desparately to get quick XP (125 a fight now, sadly) only so I can afford to make my true farming build.

Only then can I go and farm the 24 full points (6,000 XP!!!) so I can blow it all again on maybe 2 test builds for the Arenas, I'll jot down my findings in my notebook, then I am forced again to go back to PvE for mindless grinding again. ARRRRRGGHH!!! Why does it have to be so stupidly hard to enjoy PvP?!?!?!?

I can't continue like this, so I plan to wait for the Wednesday changes, and if they don't repair at least Att. Refunds, I'll take my first break from GW to test out the new Battlefield release. I'll then check in every Wednesday to see if progress is made towards ending this PvP discrimination in a significant way.

It's a shame I can't ask my fighting game buddies, who are ULTRA competitive in stuff like this, to pick up Guild Wars despite how fantastic I think it is. We wouldn't be able to even dream that a competitive-type game exists that requires soooooo much of grinding against dumb computer A.I. (after beating it all), just to be able to play a barely flexible competitive game against each other. Wednesday can't get here soon enough.

Is reading comprehension that difficult for some people? How can you go through this thread and possibly say that? We can disagree on opinions, but you are stating something that is flatly incorrect.

How can me and my supporters here ONLY see PvP as you put it when we've put in 150+ hours in pure PvE? AGAIN I'll say I did ALL the missions, the bonuses, the side quests, I got ALL the skills, I captured all but one of the elites the hard way before they turned the Signet of Capture system into a lame Boss ATM machine exercise:

(dragon dies) "Welcome! Please insert SoC card, and choose your language. Do you wish to withdraw Greneth's Balance or come back another time? Have a pleasant day and thank you for stopping by the Dragon's Lair."

They could've allowed ONLY elite captures on bosses so mistakes can be avoided, forced the bosses to spam the elites once the conditions were met, then after he cast the elite once, allow the players to capture it anytime before he died. That's a nice compromise before they completely trashed the old system.

I'm part of the proud -60%DP Althea's Ashes Walking Zombie club, who didn't need a nerf to grit it out until the end. I'm part of the dejected Villainy of Galrath's Was Avenged But All I Got Was a Lousy 500 XP club.... I can go on and on. Please don't sit there and try to say that ANY of us don't respect the PvE game and how important it is for Guild Wars. I got 160 hours of PvE time to back up my support of both (in perspective). Do you have 160 hours of PvP time to show YOU support both? I thought so.

No, PvE is in hibernation until the expansion comes out (or at least the new areas this summer.) We both finished PvE (presumably), now you go repeat those sections in pure PvE a dozen times if you wish to save up for your shiny new 75K Armour set. I don't care.

Replaying ANY adventure game on my shelf is a ridiculous proposition, so I'm ready to dive headfirst into pure PvP - YOU are the one being selfish in forcing your way on us who did 100+ hours of PvE and want to move on. You talk of it being one game, have YOU put in 100+ hours of PvP? If you had, were you forced to? After finishing PvE, why force me to do it again?

My way allows each to first prove himself in PvE, THEN give the option of how to play their game. I don't care how you play GW, so why do you care so much how I play? Which brings us to....

Why thank you Big Brother for telling me what I need and don't need. I truly appreciate you dwarfing my creativity to convince me it's for my own good.

In 3D one-on-one fighting games, there are some characters that by themselves have over 200 skills to attack or move with. I've spent eight years playing a few characters in particular to understand the application and productive use of as many of their moves as i can for my style of play. TRUST me - you have no idea what innovations one can come up with in making cool builds in Guild Wars if they have the entire palette in front of them.

The potential is there for the willing among us to tackle the depth of PvP as if we were admitted as freshmen into MIT or Cal Tech. Arena.net up to this point chooses instead to slow down our growth, giving us big yellow blocks to squeeze into round holes. I don't want your templates, I have no more use for computer A.I., I've been there, done that several times in regards to PvE (half the missions require two or three passes to get all that you need to beat it).... please let us play PvP and ignore a FINISHED PvE, just as PvE people have always been able to ignore PvP.

1 build with 1 Character? uh? Really?

Don't all characters got like 8/9 attributes? How many builds can you make out of 8/9 attributes?

Focusing on plot quest+skill quest, chances are you won't have to buy skills, you'll have way too many skill points for elite capturing, so your skill point will go for your 3rd profession...

Let's pick 2 class, +20 skills of a third (that you can buy later), and see how many builds we can make out of that.

I am a firm believer than constraint is a strong incentive for creative strategy... If you want we can try to come up with "counter" builds to flavor of the month with 2 classes +20 skills and see if we can get it to work (that's going to make assumption on the whole team though... and on metagaming).
Yes, that's a challenge
2 classes +20 skills of a 3rd . From there let's try to make a dozen builds, plus some counter to flavor of the months that could fit in a team...

I also enjoy it more when I make the best out of my small toolbox, try to come up with ideas that are unique to my skill pools, and see if they work.

Let's face it; isn't the purpose of UAS to be able to copycat the flavor of the month? (I am not saying that Spark is doing this...).
If that is what everyone means by "being competitive", that's kind of sad...

Louis,

i thought a dedicated pvp character had unlimited refund points as well as access to everything that had been unlocked.

if this is true why not use 1 slot for pvp the way most other pvp people do?

just a question and if that information is wrong please forgive my mistake

I thought of that in my desparation to be able to explore my ideas. Not once had I tried the PvP-only character mode, but I went ahead and took the 10 minutes to make a copy of my character (without access to my weapons sadly) and threw him into the Arenas for testing my newest build ideas.

Guess what? Once you use your Refund points, you don't get them back. The penalty is even worse in PvP only... the game won't let you go to the PvE sections to grind your 6,000 XP! You have to slave it off in PvP action, which means a measly 300 XP for a win, which requires a 15-20 win streak JUST to try out a cool new build idea! I was forced to delete the character, spend another 10 minutes (grind!) to rebuild him again just to try something new. Oh man, how can anyone defend that design decision?

There's a new issue however on the Refund problem. I'll make a new thread on it.

Um. Delete the PvP that you're out of refund points on and recreate him? Man this is getting too sad. I'm done reading and commenting on this one. Have fun, hope you get something worked out to your liking.

It takes you 10 minutes to rebuild your character? Seriously once you've already made him it shouldn't take that long. I agree with the last poster that uh, refund points arn't a problem at ALL in PvP. It's all about deleting/remaking PvP characters which doesn't take very long after getting used to the system (takes what, 5, 10 minutes)

Back to UAS and such discussion.

Possibly for some, but as you said, that's not what I want to do! I have played lots of Magic: TG and I must say that my favorite tournaments are the ones that allow Proxies (IE Fake cards [I play Type 1 so cards are expensive]). It allows everyone to fully explore their ideas and play at their full potential despite what they own. Yes, some people will use it to make perfect copy cat builds, but others will use it to explore classes they havent had the time to unlock in PvE.

I think in the end it will improve competition. The FotM will be more pronounced, but people will be able to produce counter strategies much more readily, which I think is more healthy for the enviroment as a whole.

arredondo

obviously i was misinformed on my information about the pvp refund points

my apologies

Um. Why should you have to delete a pvp character every time you want to try a new bulid? I mean since you can do that why not just do away with the refund points, huh? Not to mention it defeats the purpose of fame and ranks if you delete your character. BTW, what are you so sad about?

I apologize if I am responding with something that has already been said, looked and missed it if so.

Refund points are necessary. Or at the very least, people should not be able to switch attributes in mid-match. This enables people with serious micro-managing to bump up particular stats and switch them on a whim when they want to cast a different spell.

Is there something I am missing here? That's obvious right? No sarcasm intended.

"Is there something I am missing here?"

Yeah, I think so. I think most people here are saying you should be able to switch your attributes around in TOWN, not in the middle of a battle. That would be ridiculous.

Edit: yeah drowningfish, that's what I meant. Add the word "infinitely" in between "around" and "in town" if that helps.

Um, you already CAN switch attributes in mid-battle, skill points are the one you need to be in a town for. People are looking for the ability to change attributes in town without the 24 refund point restriction.

I'm glad we entertain.

Wow, baseless information! Back it up or go back to your hole.

If you read my last post you will realize that I did consider them. Again, if you don't give examples of our 'henious' solutions your statements mean little.

Don't you 'unlock' the story once you finish the game also? Tell me how this doesn't kill the PvE part too. Playing the game more than once is grind.

There is nothing stopping you from recreating your PvE toon as a PvP only. You can't tell with a straight face that most PvE chars will be equal to a PvP currently, so what does it matter if they get all the skills? What about the guy with every skill unlocked? He has the same advantage over you as if you took a PvE into UAS PvP. Read my post again, perticularly the last section.

Only PvEers ever bring this point up. Don't put your words in our mouths.

Going through UW a few times will get you a few skill points, not a lot. Going through a 'few times' sounds like grind. Maybe you want grind, but I certainly don't. May as well watch progress quest.

Who deems which skills are important? As I see it all but a handfull are important, most of which you get in quests anyway.

You don't think, but I do. I'm also one of the "top 5%" or so and I need the flexibility offered by every skill.

You might be able to do that if your friends are rushing you, but a typicall run through will take around 25 hours. If this grind wasn't that bad, do you think there'd be tons of people bitching about it on forums?

Grind is unjustifiable. And yes, I need all the skills.

You can't say that there is "a major drawback" and then never list it. Lets hear it, and make sure its nothing thats already been covered. You'll also note that I'm not trying to make PvP better (ie: skill balances etc) but trying to make GW better. You are the close minded person who is trying to preserve uneeded MMORPG values in a game that shouldn't have them.

I seriously laughed when I saw the "PvE'ers are beating on PvP'ers" line, even more when I saw it a second time.
HAve you read any of your own posts? "PvE'ers don't think" "PvE'ers don't know what they are talknig about" seriously, read your own posts and you may see why some people come across as upset.

Also, try gonig into the game as a new PvE player and running missions with PvP players who are rushing through. Oh boy is that fun. The constant calls of "OMFG you noob!" when one team member makes a slight mistake which wont even affect the outcome of the mission and then oh, lo and behold, the PvP player vanishes into thin air after spewing a lsit of profanities. Try saying I'm generalising, but the amount of times this has happened to me makes it more than a joke. I am not joknig when I say this must have happened to me at least 50 times, and I am by far not a noob by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, if you really want to see why some people are really narked off, take a trip to the guilhall.net forums, and see the hundreds of threads whining about the same stuff OVER and OVER again. The same people repeating the same old junk for the umpteenth time. It gets repetitive, far more so than this alleged "grind" to become competitive.


The PvP community in general seems to think that you have to unlock every skill, on every class and every rune before you can play PvP effectiely. Heres news for you jack, unlock one characters skills you want for a build, then go play PvP. Then when you can be bothered, or want to change build, go find the other skills you want, come back, paly PvP until you want to change again. Rinse, wash, repeat.

I was playing competitive PvP since the end of week 2. And now if I want a new build I go out and unlock the skills I want, which doesn't take too long. (make 3 RP chars and 1 PvP char, only advance with an RP char when you want a skill further on).

You may need them all for variation, but you don't need them right NOW. You ahve all the time in the world to get the skills when you want them, and it would take me under 4 days to get the 8 skills unlocked for a new build I ahd thought of, if I hadnt got any of the skills unlocked.

As for runes, anyone who thinks you needs superiors needs to try going into the PvP field without them. It makes jack all difference, and if you have played through PvE then you should have enough money to buy the runes you want and a weapon with stats you want anyway.

Because it takes about as much time as respeccing would anyway, and doesnt take out the refunds for the people who like the challenge of having them. Plus fame and ranks are account based not character based, surely a PvPer should know that?

some people like to cap none elite skills from bosses as you can get them earlier in the game that way, and if you make a mistake highliting a skill on a list and clicking accept then really you deserve whatever skill you got, because it takes a MAJOR blunder or stupidity to do that.

Oh and don't ask for improvements then complain when they come. You ma ynot ahve asked for villany to be updated, but now it is don't complain about a good thing. Oh no, you missed out on it, shame, you are also much further into the game than anyone who has yet to complete Galraths anyway, and so have more skill poitns and levels, so stop griping.

Oh and you've got 160 hours of play out of a game. Most games PvE (single player) give you 15-20 hours. Be gald you got your moneys worth and enjoy it.

Try looking at some of the polls over on guildhalls.net, statistically shows that the vast majority of GW players are Pve and Pve players, not one or the other. I also doubt he lives in a whole, so stop using baseless information and back it up!

No, PvPers bring up the points that would cause this to happen, they jsut seem to be unable to see from the PvE'ers point of view that this is what will happen and instead accuse them of puttin words in their mouths, when in fact the PvE'er is looknig at the wider picture than a quick-fix.

Need, no. Want, yes. If you and your guild have people assigned to a couple of specific roles (ie/ a few players who specialise in monks and eles, a few who specialise in warriors and rangers etc.) then you get rid of this problem entirely. You don't need to be able to fill any role at any time, thats why you have your guild. Just make sure your team builds include the classes that people specialise in, it isnt hard.

Rather than making a meal of it go and find solutions to get around it, after all, thats what the entire concept of GW PvP is about, so you should be good at that.

Not really. It's just kind of a stupid design to make a new character just to switch some attributes around when you could more quickly just do it in-game with the same character. That's all I'm saying.
I don't get this. The challenge of having them? That's kind of a boring challenge isn't it? If you're doing PvP I would think think the fun is based on matching up different skill sets, experimenting, and seeing how well you can use the skills in battle. But if that's what YOU like then I guess I can't really argue.
ROFL! "surely a PvPer should know that". My bad; I didn't know that. But surely you're not trying to peg me into a certain category such as "PvPer". Oh, wait, you are. Nice try. I enjoy both PvE and PvP aspects of the game, I just don't see why one necessarily has to take away from the other. Maybe you should calm down on the PvP'er hate a little bit .

You generalize idiots with PvPers. Change 'PvP player' to 'stupid immature player' and I agree with you 100%.

People keep agruing about this stuff because a. there are obviously some misconceptions about the two sides and b. nobody ever actually reads and comprehends what other people are saying.

This is like saying you are only going to have socket sizes 11 and 13 for your rachet set. Whenever you encounter a need for different size you go run down to the store and buy it. Why not just get a complete set?

In 4 days the last build is old and crusty and theres a shiny new one waiting to be tried out. Waiting for people to get all the skills for your build is a huge waste of time. This is especially troublesome for people who can't play as often as others and thus have fewer skill points.

Runes increase the efficieny of a character. In some cases its a small amount and in others a large. If you don't use runes your character is gimped.

We're trying to but this nasty PvE thing keeps popping up.

The baseless information line was used because he quoted PvPers trying to get game ruining changes but never stated what these mysterious changes are. And for the record I'd say pretty much everyone does both PvE and PvP since PvE is almost a requirement for PvP

Which points are these? Please, leave a list of everything a PvEer thinks would ruin this game and I will defend them. Reasons why would be.. excellent also.

While you are correct, you also miss an important aspect of Guild Wars; you get two classes. This means that while I may primarily play an elementalist, I also need unknown skills from my secondary class. Granted, I wouldn't need executioners strike or dual shot, but there are a slew of skills from every profession that could easily find their way onto a elementalists skill bar. However, for a situation like mine where I play elementalist, warrior, and ranger, a great number (read: all) of skills are needed.

Guild Wars is about finding solutions, however it is not about finding solutions around flexibility limiting game mechanics.

In closing I would like to say that I would be more than happy to address any of your PvP vs PvE concerns provided that you do your own homework by backing up your information and actually listing the points on which you think PvPers err.

I used to play Magic.... a bit more than 10 years ago

Sure, you can play Magic with "UAS" of some sorts, allowing you to play whatever you fancy.
You also got to acknowledge that Magic was copycat kingdom... And that's why there is a metagame to it...

However, if you want to be competitive, you don't need access to all the cards. You can have a very simple deck, with very cheap cards, and play for the win. No matter what the flavour of the month is.
A simple winnie white, a fast green/red, a counter blue, are all easy to do with very common cards. They might be hard to play and requires good timing, and they won't win all the games, but those could be competitive/ troublesome no matter what they face.
There is also a learning curve about how to play a deck... Even a simple counter blue deck (aka mesmer in GW) requires practice to be played right. It's also true of a white winnie or a fast green/red.
Guess what, I take bet that with UAS, most people will jump from copycat to copycat, without taking the time to learn the way their build/deck works.
How would that improve competition?

I'd rather play with a mesmer with no elite but who went throught all PvE content, got a clear idea of how its skills works and what he got to do, than a mesmer who made a copycat of a build he saw on internet but no practice with it.

what I'd like, instead of a UAS, and to have some competitive build even without unlocking PvE content, is way more and way better PvP premade character. Like the equivalent for GW of the builds I mentionned above in Magic. I got no issue giving premade characters superior rune and equipement relevant to their job. I got no issue having like 200+ of them. I got no issue if those builds are sometimes very specialised. Lot of competitive premade would give PvPer flexibility and keep PvEer some of their character building uniqueness.

Louis,

I think that those "flexibility limiting game mechanics" are actually an incentive to find creative solutions...

For me the fun is finding out what I can do with a limited pool. With everything, chances are solutions will be easier to find. And less fun. Please note the "for me". I understand you got fun in different ways, but since I am playing this game too, I voice my opinion for it not to change

After UAS, what's the next step then? The two class limit? That is for sure a game mechanics that limits flexibility... I'd find better solutions with Spellbreakers and Rend Enchantment available no matter what class I play.

Louis,

[QUOTE=Tuna]You generalize idiots with PvPers. Change 'PvP player' to 'stupid immature player' and I agree with you 100%.[QUOTE]

I tend to end up arguing with them, and 9 times out of 10 they bring up "you obviously don't play PvP noob". This tends to make me think they are PvP players, don't know about you.

They do read what is said and they do comprehend, they just don't agree. Don't confuse those two terms, and don't fall into the trap of thinking that people who don't agree with you are idiots. The only misconception there is is that by posting you will actually change the opinion of any of hte posters of the forum, or the areanet staff.


Difference is, each raquet shop olny sells 2 racquets, and each shop is many miles apart, and you have no car, so why bother to go buy the other racquets when you dont need them? If you find out that theres a problem which needs a different kind of rachet you either borrow your friends rachet or go to the store and buy your new one.

If you've played through the game with 1 character you should ahve all the none elite skills for that character, as long as you take the time to complete skill quests rather than try to buy all teh skills. changing your build doesnt take effort as long ass you stick to the same class combo, and sticking to one class combo allows you to perfect it. Take a look at N0, they have people who concentrate on a class.

Minor and Major do, sure, but Minor and Major you can buy from a rune trader without much effort. Superiors dont give enough of an effect to actually gimp you or unbalance the PvP game.


Since before UAS PvP has been the end of game reward, not something you are meant to dive right into. The PvP characters are there to allow you a taster of PvP and to let you vary your characters once you have got to the end. The whole "jumping into PvP" thing is a myth that came up relatively recently. PvE only needs to be completed once to get into the PvP game.

Sorry, by "plays" I actually meant "enjoys". The "game ruining changes" in the opinion of a lot of people would be UAS, or some of the other things PvPers seem to want which I cant remember at the moment thanks to extreme tiredness.


UAS toggle- knocks out any kind of PvE reward, and there arent enough asthetic rewards to make up for it.

UAS upon game completion- Knocks out any replayability, and lets people play classes they know nothing about without practicing with them first, causing much aggro in PvP when people play classes they are unfamiliar with, and I think everybody would agree there is already far too much aggro on the PvP field without the calls of "noob" being added.

UAS for classes you complete game with- not needed at all, by the end of the game you should have unlocked almost every none elite skill, and elite skils are given SoC for a reason.

Unlocking via PvP- no qualms, if they did this itd make me happier than any of the other solutions


Which is why I wish they had made the changing your secondary profession better. Giving people say, all the skill points they spent on secondary skills back when you change secondary.

Once you have unlocked all the skills for your class and secondary, then unlocknig skills for other classes becomes optional if you take the route of assigning people classes, and you also know that the people will be good at playing it. You should be using your time playing through PvE to learn the ropes of your character, and by the time you have got to end game you should be able to head into PvP and whoop ass.

Finding solutions is always about working around restrictions, otherwhise you wouldn't ahve a problem that needs a solution. working with a limited skillset makes you a much better player over time, as you begin to rely on things other than what skills you have on the bar- things like tactics, timing and positioning.

I have done, many times, and every time they read it and post a rebuttal. Over tiem Ive learnt that Im not going to change peoples stance of the game except by trying to come up with new solutions. Thats what I tried to do on the guildhall forums when there was the argument of capturing elites, by putting forward the idea of capturing skills when the boss was dead by using a list...and look what came from that.

Using the old solutions which you know people disagree with doesnt get you anywhere. New solutions are the way forward.

Cry Baby :'(

You're probably right. However, posting the ideas of a PvPer will (hopefully) spread understanding and clear up some other misconceptions. I don't want to even think about who does and who does not influence the Arena Net staff

I think we all agree that UAS toggle (for PvP only chars) will only hurt those who enjoy PvP and PvE. It will help those who PvP only and have no effect on those who only PvE. I will also agree that the casual fanbase is almost entirely made up of those who enjoy both PvP and PvE. Saying that, I will focus on the aforementioned group.

A UAX button will have a heavy effect (game balance not rewards/replayability etc.) on PvP but none on PvE. The group of people in question enjoy PvE so if they want to construct a better PvE character they still have to unlock skills. The problem comes when the PvEer wants to PvP. If this person who we will call Joe wants to PvP with his PvE character, he is at a noticable disadvantage. The only real way to know how Joe feels about this situation is to ask him, so if you fit 'Joe' please respond. However, I will give my view.

Depending on the X in UAX, Joe can have a number of disadvantages. The easiest way to solve this is to recreate his PvE character as a PvP to gain X advantage. It is agrueable that Joe may have little experience with X, but I have a fair amount of faith that Joe can figure it out pretty quick. It is also helpfull if Joe is in a guild or active on a forum to gain advice about elements of Guild Wars that he is unfamiliar with. It might also be good if the skills that are unlocked are limited.

I agree there should be more asthetic rewards.

I hit on most of the issues here in the last few paragraphs. I will admit that I am not very familiar with pug PvP however, what I have seen is in accorinances with what you have stated: ugly. My absolute first recomendation when play Guild Wars is to join an active guild that shares your intrests. This is the easiest way to avoid the horrid side of the PvP scene and gain much knowledge. If you have abolutely no idea how to play a class and can't be bothered to ask the steps are as follows: 1. random 4v4 arena. 2. tombs. 3. more tombs. I don't think player ignorance is justification to not allow UAX

If you do all the skill quests, yes, you will have most of the skills. However, whatever skill points you earn will *not* be enough to gain the rest for both classess unless your grind to roughly 1million exp. I don't agree with UAX for PvE in any form, as that *will* kill PvE. Also, if you get UAX on completion of the game you still have to beat it 3 times minimum to get everything.

Why there isn't a system for this is beyond me. However, as you stated yourself we aren't changing anyones opinions

Thats roughly the same as UAS, especially if you could redo quests.

You do learn a bit about your character playing PvE but it is really far to different to really apply most of it to PvP.


I think having 8 skills on your bar is enough restriction.

It is clear that understanding between PvPers and PvEers has not been reached. Not only do we disagree (which is not only fine but also inevitable) we also have no idea why on earth the other side is spewing such 'blashphemy.' Untill understanding is achieved no discussion about new solutions will occur with out it eventually sliding into an arguement about grind or UAX.

-Tuna, member of DrkH

Stick their thumbs in the eyes of players? You should be thanking A.net very kindly for releasing this game, free from monthly fees.

Because its all part of the same game, there is the logical sense. Take another game I play for example, Eve-Online, thats like saying you enjoy making money so why cant you make money all alone in the high level areas without risking the threat of losing all your gains.
Or CounterStrike, you like killing the enemy, but you dont like dying, even though its part of the same game, so why cant you have a God mode?

Albeit I dont see PvE as a negative, a risk I have to face in order to play.

Pure PvE players are a small group of players, thats probably why youv not come across any of their complaints, most of them might not even use this forum for all you know.
Your right, PvP is not non-consensual in GW, PvE is not non-consensual either, you can choose whether or not you are going to PvE.
I suppose a land, a world, an enviroment of characters and rules and concepts is in no way related to fighting other players for the favour of that lands Gods, or competing in wars that are the folklore of that land.
Contextually unrelated? In the same way boxing has nothing to do with wanting fame or glory in the real world...



You gain EXP in PvP, nuff said. (btw how many other games offer this?)


Dude p1ss off, attention seeking whiner scum like you is the last thing any game needs, I hope you moan yourself out of Guild Wars real soon.

Well, this has become practically defunct now, as Anet are introducing the only one I ahd no qualms with, PvP unlocking- if you havent read the future update thing, go do it now.

There we go, problem solved, now hopefully we can all go back to enjoying the game.

Yep! It shows that everyone who's interested in serious PvP play can make a difference when they put their voices together. There's soon to be no more discrimination. Three cheers for the Guild Wars Civil Rights era! Arena.net is addressing what this and other threads have been saying all along...

"Why do PvE players get to enjoy their game without touching PvP, but PvP players are forced to play PvE over and over again?"

The rock-headed selfish debaters who wanted to keep PvE as the main focus instead of an equal and fair experience for all can now go cry softly in their pillow. You play GW your way (as it remains unchanged), and let us play GW our way.

The only remaining concern I have that I'm sure they'll eventually fix is the final PvE ball and chain left on the pure PvP player. Now more than before is there a need to allow a full reset of all 24 Attribute Refund Points when leaving the PVP battlefield. Earning 6,000 in PvP to simply change the stats to match up with your builds is crazy. And since PvP toons can't access any farming areas to do it faster, they need 15-20 wins just to get their points back (or delete their character and restart).

Once that is adjusted, hopefully there will no longer be any reason for any PvP player to do ANY PvE that they don't want.... just as now no PvE player has no reason to do PvP if they don't want.

Dude, just deal with how the game is, it's fine how its made u just want everything with no time to work for it.

I want to "work" at creating and testing a dozen builds to bring to battle, depending on the needs of my eventual guild and team. There's no reason, absolutely no reason for them to limit switching Attribute Points away from battle.

Apply the system to your eight selected skills. Did Arena.net screw up by not making you "work" for changing your eight skills in town whenever you want? Switching secondaries? Should you have to earn 6,000 XP to make those changes, or "work for it" as you say of Attribute Points? Try to fully answer any of these questions without sounding like a hypocrite.

Of course those restrictions would be ludicrous, as it is for the way refund points are now handled. All three are connected to each other... all of them should be free of unnecessary restrictions when in town. Attribute Refund Points should be fully refunded when leaving the battleground.

You know that "separate but equal" never worked for the real Civil Rights movement, yes?

Only complete integration—including forcible integration of the schools, and really large-scale affirmative action programs including 'quotas' of minority personnel required to be placed in certain positions—ever came close to actually addressing the problem, and the economic separation of the races is still a major issue today.

Don't be comparing this to the Civil Rights movement; if anything, it's the exact opposite: we started with everyone completely integrated.

Your so-called 'Civil Rights era' has been a movement to separate play, and give the 'tough kids' and their gangs—excuse me: Guilds—their own playground.

Now, I'm not saying that isn't a good thing: it is, and I'm all in favor of it. However, comparing it to the Civil Rights movement is a complete denial of everything for which the real Civil Rights movement stood.

—Siran Dunmorgan

I'm totally in agreement with you in regards to the PvP unlocking update, but I really don't understand why you don't just delete a PvP only character to respec them. Since everything you have is based off what you've unlocked, you can just get it again with a few clicks of the mouse when you recreate your character. You essentially do have an unlimited number of refund points with PvP-only characters this way. I've deleted my PvP character dozens of times, and each time been able to rebuild him exactly as he was before, with no loss to me. Your items will be the same, your Fame will be the same.... So really, your situation isn't really a problem at all, unless you're doing the testing on a PvE character (which I can't see the point in doing). Basically, why complain about something you can easily circumvent?

Wow.... someone actually made something out of an offhand comment, lol. Dude, in no way is anything related to gaming seriously comparable to the Civil Rights era. However, as a goofy analogy that wasn't supposed to be anything more than just that, I am closer to being logically correct than you are.

Civil Rights was about equal rights. Everyone having basically the same opportunity as the next person, regardless of status. You want something, then it's your choice to get it as much as the next "equal" guy, be it a job, a home.... whatever.

What you aren't seeing is that you also have equal rights to NOT want something if you so choose. If you don't want to pay a tax on an item that your "equal" neighbor isn't paying a tax on, why should you? Why should you HAVE to sit in the back of the bus if you don't want when your "equal" neighbor does not? Why do you HAVE to use the servant's entrance to dine at a posh restaurant when your "equal" neighbor is allowed to go through the main entrance?

For the benefit of your comparisons, I'll take all of that to say, it was unfair for PvE players to not have to play PvP to enjoy all of PvE if they didn't want to, but PvP players were forced to put in hundreds of hours of PvE to get the most out of their mode.

PvE players were very priviliged in this respect, and couldn't see what the fuss was about on the PvP side... THEY weren't being forced to do something they didn't want to do (100+ hours of PvP just to advance in PvE). Instead, they just attacked us for complaining. That was where the discrimination existed. That is what will be changed next week.

Kishin: That's an unnecessary grinding activity. You lose a match, you want to go from an Illusion/Hex MeNe to a Domination/Blood MeNe. By getting all 24 points back upon return, you'll be back in battle in under a minute. Your way (the current way) takes 5-10 minutes as you type in character name to delete the old, create new name and stats, choose items, etc.

As you say yourself, they both accomplish the exact same thing, so why not just go for the expiditious option? I mean I can remove all my clothes everytime I want to take a leak, but it's simpler just to pull down the zipper to handle my business.

So the solution is to build separate restaurants? Run separate bus lines?

"We don't want to ride your buses. We don't want to eat in your restaurants. We don't even want to live in your neighborhoods. We want our own restaurants. We want our own bus lines. We want our own neighborhoods. And if you weakling-n00b-carebears come into our neighborhoods, we'll make you regret it, 'cause you're not tough enough to cut it on our side of the tracks. Oh—and stuff your gun control laws, too, 'cause we want all the best military-grade weapons and armor for free."

Well—yeah. The nice thing about Guild Wars is that that's actually likely to work, where it wouldn't in real life.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet, so perhaps someone else has already pointed out how utterly moronic your post is (sure hope so).

If not, I'd like to point out how utterly moronic your post is. Useless chaff like this really ticks me off. I have a cat - dumb as a brick - that likes to lie in the bathtub and howl just to hear the sound of her own voice, so maybe I should be a little bit more understanding..

Perhaps next time you feel like contributing to a thread, you could at least attempt to understand the direction the OP is coming from.