Why Pre-Searing Ascalon is a bad starter area.

Quests

It's been said Guild Wars isn't about FedEx quests, and for most of that game that's true. However, in Pre-Searing, that's all there is. Go get my apple basket, go get me 10 disgusting bodyparts, go make me a sandwich.

You run back and forth across the place on boring quests, and it feels like you're playing WoW, and you just want to get out of there as soon as possible to play the missions. Of course new people don't know about those missions, they might think that this is all there is to the game.

Party Size

Yeah, GW is about playing with your friends, etc... And how can you do that with 2 player parties, assuming you have more than 1 friend? Will new players magically know that this restriction applies only to the starter area and not the whole game? People question the viablility of no monthly fees all the time, will they assume that 2 player parties is all the game can handle due to no fees?

Non-Linear Setup/Vague Directions

So, you run around back and forth in the non-linear area it is, which causes a lot of running around, which is not fun. You also have trouble finding things. You have the quest arrow for quests in the log, of course, but things that don't show up in log you have to run around and look for, which can be frustrating and hardly "just doing the fun bits". Vague directions like "to the East" are hopeless, I spent maybe half an hour looking for a Ranger trainer "to the East" with no luck, and then gave up.

I see your points, but I'am sure most of the players going into Guild Wars have looked into it and found that these restrictions are only in the beginning, and that missions come later. Most people learn something about a game before purchasing it, I know I do...

I agree with Armaio entirely i have spent ages looking at info, screenies and vids before i even thought about buying it and i already no quite alot about the game even the gameplay and areas in the game!

I agree with Nash on this one (probably the first time I've said that ) but I have noticed the traditional MMO feeling of pre-searing and it doesn't seem to be a good intro to the GW missions that come after the searing. It is a good place to introduce the quest system in GW. After the searing you can still do quests like in pre-searing, but they are overshadowed by the superior missions and storyline.

you have got a point but its like most games. its just an intro and a chance to learn the game before setting out.

The one thing you CAN hope for is that in the Boxed Form, a detailed manual will outline the game... sure, not a lot of players actually read the manual before playing the game, but it gives them something to do during install. So maybe they will after all, lol.

I have to somewhat agree as well... but I'm sure you've noticed the support and good resposes to the area as well?

No everyone is an informed customer, or takes the time to actually find something out beforehand. A lot of people are just gonna forego reading anything, get right to playing, and that will be their first contact with the game. It has to make a good impression.

Gaile said that the manual is getting a lot of attention and should be excellent

Have to agree with Nash on this one. Many folks just don't take the time to read/learn first. Just reading through the forums will show you how dependent some people are on telling them everything to do. "What is that strange link up there called 'Search'? Oh well, someone will answer my 'original' question for me."

I think there will be many players who read a review somewhere or hear about the game and buy it thinking it is revolutionary (which it is), then see Pre-Searing Ascalon and think it is just like all the other questing games around. Not sure how I feel about this, maybe Pre-Searing will weed out certain types of people, maybe it won't. We'll just have to wait and see.

Vai

I also agree with Nash.
I feel that the Pre-Sear is a huge Explorable Area.

There should be at least one Mission, if not more. Having a 4 member party for the initial Mission would be a great introduction. Maybe a Mission that gives the background of why Guilds fight. With henchmen opponents in a starting arena as part of the mission. Maybe the beginning of the mission would be travelling to the arena.

You could even have two 2 person teams randomly joined for this arena.

You have a point there, though I imagine this can be explained through those little pop up help boxes i.e. after forming a party for the first time, a box will appear saying "For now you can form parties in twos, but you may form even larger parties later on".

Is that necessarily a bad thing? There are lots of people coming into GW from previous MMORPG backgrounds - expecting (and in some ways wanting) to see the same thing. At least this way they are eased into the flow of GW.

Agreed. It just doesn't prepare you correctly for the rest of the game.

I think it's more of a layered approach. First they make sure you become familiar with the game's interface in the pre-searing tutorial - learn how to use skills, how to level up, how to spend attribute points, etcetera. In this sense it's pretty similar to the original tutorial, but much broader and with other people running around in the settlements. When they're ready to move on, they move to post-searing where they learn about missions.

It may not be perfect, but there's something to be said for not trying to cram everything the game entails into one tutorial, it lets you focus on the things that are essential. Once the game goes live the tutorial won't serve any purpose as 'selling point' to the game - people playing in it have already bought their copy, so it's better to make sure they don't end up in post-searing while still wondering how to target a monster or how to sell their loot, or other basics of the basics like that. Tutorial != demo.

Maybe post-searing does need a little 'after tutorial' though, the current method seems to be a quest to 'report to the North Wall' which a lot of people seem to overlook; the mission exit in the new post-searing Ascalon seems more obscure as well. I suppose with the green markers finding it will be less of an issue, but given the substantially different nature of missions there should be a clear explanation that from this point forward you are supposed to complete missions instead of running around completing quests.

I agree that pre-searing is not a lot like the rest of the game. Like someone said though, its probably not so bad that is has more of the typical mmo "feel" because that is what many people are used to and expecting. Its very pretty and short enough that they can move on quickly enough. I would like to see at least one real "mission" mission as well though. Maybe add a full mission as part of the acadamy or change around the current setup so its more like the rest of the game.

The big problem I have with the tutorial area is that it has next to nothing to do with the rest of the game. Instead of introducing staging areas and missions, you just have a bit EA. Instead of teaching people how to acquire skills and choosing your build, you get handed a pre-selected set of starter skills. Instead of encouraging, even requiring significant teamplay, it actively encourages you to solo.

While I enjoy the area for what it is, it's a failure as a tutorial. After playing it, you get dumped into Ascalon City without any knowledge of how skill trainers work, of what missions are, of anything of the sorts.

Fixing this is straightforward. Turn the free skill NPCs into skill trainers that walk you through the process. Turn a couple key areas, like the catacombs or north of the wall, into mission areas that players are expected to complete before entering the academy. Use the tutorial to teach people how to play the game, not as a mostly different game that just hands off a few skills and equipment before making people learn on the fly after the searing.

Peace,
-CxE

I completly agree.

First of all the area is to large with the vague dirrections. It took me forever to find the trainers. All they tell you is go notrh, south, east, or west and in this area. That is nowhere near enough info for new players.

Also the party number has to be incresed (maybe to like 4). For a game that is all about going out in teams and not soloing it, only allowing 2 people in a party gives new players a bad vision of the rest of the game.

Maybe things will be changed come release? Maybe it willbe changed come the last BWE? Im sure they know about peoples concerns, hopefully they will read or hear about issues and take care of them quickly, unlike other games where it takes 4 months to get a decent patch

Yup, you guys are right. As a tutorial, it was good in that the developers were trying to set up a relatively non-threatening area where characters could be introduced to ALL of the professions, primary & secondary, without having to worry too much about getting wasted every time they turned around, and to get familiar with most of the basic controls in the game. It could be improved, as Ensign & cpukilla said, by changing the skill NPC's into skill trainers, like what is in the rest of the game, and introducing at least one fairly easy "mission" that would expose players to the team aspect of the game. Those two additions would make the tutorial much more effective as an introduction to the game as it really operates.

Or alternately, have joining the Academy start you on a series of, say, three missions, the Searing coming at the end of the third. The first two would just get you new outposts on the KoA map, and you could still map travel back and forth, so entering the Academy doesn't have to be a complete leaving your life behind sort of thing. The missions Academy members participate in would be 4 player missions instead of two, so you gain experience with larger parties at the same time. And put your first henchies here as well for when you need to round out the party and don't have enough real players (or the right real players).

I hate to make a me too post, but... me too

Pre-searing Ascalon needs some sort of instanced co-op mission. They're just too big a part of the game to not include.

An Idea: what if when you said to tydus "I want to go to the academy", you were taken to a "The Academy" Outpost similar to the mission outposts (perhaps even a shield on the map?) which would allow you to form your own groups for the PvP and following mission? The 'lore keeper' (drill seargant? ) could tell you, perhaps, that the Trainees have been asked to form groups for their first test/assignment or something like that. It would take out the annoying random groups for the academy AND give players experience in mission outposts.

I like it because I dislike it so much lol. Dunno if that makes any sense. It's a good change. Really makes me want the 8 size parties, real missions, real skills etc

Hey i heard it has great sight seeing though! I could hang around anywere with a nice landscape.

I think that Pre-Searing was mostly to show off the landscape, imagination, of the game makers. And from what i have read, i was thinking that there wont be any Pre-Searing when the full version comes out. I got the impression that it was just gonna be a BWE thing. Am i off base there?

The academy is certainly an area that could change a bit, too. I remember the shock of entering, stumbling my way through, and then being disgorged into the post-searing Ascalon with no real clue about what I'd just done. And then realizing that I couldn't go back to finish any of the uncompleted quests that I still had on my seriously under-experienced level 3 character. I was chagrined. I have a friend that went thru the same experience, hadn't assigned any of his attained attribute points before entering the academy, and so spent HOURS trying to anemically battle his way through it, suffering endless verbal abuse by the "drill instructor," before finally, with luck, emerging victorious into post-searing Ascalon. It's a good thing he's an ex-Marine, or he'd have never suffered the D.I.'s abuse long enough to get through it. So I'm hoping the Academy experience will be nerfed a bit. Maybe only allowing level 5's and above to enter. And make it clearer that if you ain't done in Disneyland yet, maybe you better go back and finish up first, before exiting the park.

my group got wiped out and continued on to the cave mission

where something came out of the blue killing mr (ranger level 6 ) with 1 hit instantly

the npc warrior then went on and finished the cave going past me 4 times and then th cutscene played and poof there i was


and yes you are off base

they did not go to that much effort in pre sear to throw it away

besides they have put much more into it since last time so yes they will keep it

loooooolllll

I can't wait for the game to be finished so people can play and stop looking at whats wrong for new players from their informed, experienced, and knowledgeable position in what's probably not gonna be identical at release to what they've seen.

Considering pre-searing was introduced 2 or 3 BWE's ago and Alpha/Beta testers don't make good noobs because they are too informed, it would appear suggestions from real noobs after the next BWE and release of the game will be far more accurate if one is truly looking at the effectiveness of pre-searing Ascalon as a training ground.

I tend to think the people that originated and developed this game over 3+ years have a pretty good idea what they're doing. Otherwise me thinks we would be posting on the WOW boards

Finis.

I agree, Sin; I can't wait for the game to be "finished," so we can play, either. But I think that having alpha/beta testers submit observations on game play, is the purpose of having the beta test period. I really sympathize with how the developers must feel after they allow folks to play with what's taken them years to create, just to have a bunch of "noobs" trample all over it and then make seemingly unrealistic demands on how to "fix" their baby. Gaile Gray and others have said that they welcome suggestions, as have been made in the "Suggestions" thread, but it can't be easy for them. That's why it's important to consider our words carefully, and honestly try to see it all through the eyes of a "noob," (which has never been hard for me, since I'll STILL be a GW newbie months from now.) Suggestions made this way will help the devs come closer to presenting a finished game come the 28th, and that's what we all want.

Is there anyone who started playing GW on the BWE when they introduced pre-searing Ascalon? I'd like to get the opinion of someone who went through that area before playing any part of seared Ascalon.

As a new player to the bwe in march I didn't mind the pre-searing area. For one it introduces the game softly and it looks fantastic.I spent the majority of time playing alone in this area, it was one of the few areas where you could do so without dying every 2 seconds until I got further on. I enjoyed the quests and enjoyed the non-linearity of being able to chose what I wanted. I was in no real rush to go to the academy but after I'd seen all there was to see and realised that I wasn't getting hardly any XP I went. I enjoyed the co-op levels in the post searing too, and joined with groups more there too. However I would have liked more pre-searing, just a choice to stay and do more quests in the lovely area that it was.

Marksmann thanks for understanding what I meant. I agree and think we are all "noobs" until it's released.

I am sure you realized what I meant in regard to how the past experience and information that Alpha/Beta testers have is not ignorable. Certainly the best efforts are made, admirable they are and should be applauded. Not to say that this is not just an emulator as it isn't the same as the real deal--a new player. The pre-conceived factual and other knowledge does influence, especially something that has gone on as long as GuildWars for most of these testers.

If letting go of what you know were reasonably simple there would no need for alpha/beta testers of any software, the programmers and developers could test it themselves (No BWEs? ) Even quantum theory has shown the impossibility of separating the observer from the observed, how much more difficult would that be for the tester trying to be the zero knowledge never played before new player? I am not suggesting a wrong or right anything, merely suggesting these types of threads may be more a venting of frustration over not being able to just play the finished game right now especially considering the next BWE is a few days away, let alone the release.

I am sure too that many testers made suggestions and that those probably even led up to there being a pre-searing Ascalon, however some components of those suggestions may have not been implemented as or when the tester(s) had hoped, and the clock might appear to be "ticking."

To all the Alpha/Beta testers thank you for all you've done, many of you may have made some sacrifices to make yourselves available to play and report or whathaveyou. And you all have to keep quite a bit to yourselves, which can be very hard, luckily there are quite a few of you so at least you can talk to each other somewhat. It can be a grueling task, no question. Testers are one of the many groups of "unsung heroes" who need more recognition for what they go through--and if not for the nature of their job being almost mysterious in it's details becuase of the confidtentiality in its nature--I am sure many would show them great appreciation.

My interjection is merely one of timing and how it affects accuracy and reasonable use of this kind of energy, also looking at the new eyes peering into the forums with the game around the corner. Consideration in making the effort to forsee the many interests and factors that can be affected.

Well, I've personally played in every event since E34E, but this last beta I took a buddy of mine from Pre-Searing up through Lion's Arch with a new character I had made, so I'll just relate what he said and what happened.

He really like GW experienced (visuals, gameplay, etc) but as far as skills, attributes, etc. he really had to rely on me explaining what was up, It didn't help either that he is not a MMO'er at all, but really in the case of setting up a tutorial I think such a fresh perspective would be good... But personally I do believe that the biggest thing was a lack of a manual for the game. I really think that would clear up a majority of the problems.

One minor consideration...


Maybe it lacks explanation of attributes and such to encourage dialogue between the more experienced and less experienced players? One more nice break from the standard rpg would be to design in a way to disintegrate the "noob" v "gosu" class struggle.

Just a maybe

The March BWE was my introduction to GW after playing UO for many years. I found the tutorial area very helpfull. It allowed me to try out various builds, which I could create and delete ad infinitum. It gave me time to get used to the UI, keyboard movements and set up macros. My time was well spent. I took 1 char to the academy to see what it was like on the 'other side', and got a good insight of the missions to come.
I will definately take all my chars up to lvl 5 before going to the academy.
I know the serious gaming starts once you arrive at the academy, but to me the pre-seared Ascalon is a good starting area.

Dr Wu

I know that the manual that will be included with the final release will HAVE to be better than the groping along & "On-the-Game-Training" that most of us have used to figure things out in GW. A lot of folks can take to this like ducks to water, but many do better with an "owner's manual" to refer to. I know that would have helped my friend thru his sticking point that I referred to in an earlier post. And that would also help with what you brought up, Sin, with the "noob" vs. "gosu" class struggle. Here's a noob query for you, What does "gosu" stand for? LoL. I know that many of the folks posting on here would enjoy the chance to help other, less experienced players benefit from what they've been through. I enjoyed "escorting" a group of first time players in pre-sear Ascalon last month, and hope to do more of that again. That's one way to eliminate the class struggle. And thanks to the game design, it's fun to do. I hope to see some of you more experienced players in the game, so that we can team up for a little adventuring and you can teach me some "stuff." I've got a lot to learn.

Same as Dr.Wu March BWE was my 1st venture into Guild Wars, 1st venture into a orpg also. Although having some experience in highschool playing dungeons and dragons. Being born in 1970 i grew up with games like pong, asteroids, Zelda, kid Icarus, atari, colecovision, commd64, nintendo, sega, playstation, finaly getting a 486dx that pushed me out of console games and into command and conquer, Quake wich turned into Team fortress 2 Fort, Halflife, counterstrike, Starcraft. Although never taking a liking to diablo, the click to swing became repetitious and i found myself longing back to the FPS games.
Guild Wars is the 1st time ive been drawn to a RPG because it combines RPG with FPS and 3rd person. Even though the 1st 3 days i was playing it was kind of hard to understand, A. game isnt out yet B. Had no instructions C. Trying to comprehend RPG's again (wish i had my Fiend Folio from 1978) I can see getting into the grove for some players will be challenging at 1st. Upon creating a character and entering Ascalon (what i like to call the sanctuary, you cant get hurt and you cant hurt anyone either, well mabe someones feelings) you start meeting people from all over. Some with game experience, others like myself with no-clue.
Ascalon is the games tutorial, you learn how to move, talk to others, learn your away around town. Right from Ascalon you can start quests, i opted to ask for a helping hand, someone was right there with an invitation to a group. Now i had someone to talk to, someone to ask questions so he told me to follow him, good way to get a feel for your surroundings. Having absolutly no idea what was going on, i kept right behind him, taking everything in like a sponge. Now i wouldnt suggest if your starting this game to run out with some level 5-10 guys, because right from the get go you will have different intrests, you might have different classes and other players might have different objectives. After following my new guide for a few hours following him on a few quests. I found myself wanting to explore areas that he wanted to run right through, because he already knew where he was, and had already completed lowly missions i hadnt completed yet.
This is where i 1st learned how to exit a group. Then starting back from ground zero Ascalon, i decided to explore the game in my own way, Starting the low missions wich now i was getting a feel for the flow of the game. Pre-Searing Old Ascalon is Huge. Larger than any online game i have yet to encounter, and thats just the pre-searing. Way too much content to just leave old Ascalon and Venture Across the Unknown. Im the kind of player that likes to know my way through a level, before i go on to the next. Make sure im not leaving something on the table. If anything you learn a sence of survival. Even though im not a ranger i bumped into a special training ranger up at Fort Ranik,and met collectors of all kinds in hard to find areas. There are so many off the beaten paths, its impossible to learn all of old Ascalon in a merly 3 days. Unless you dont sleep, or you know where your going.

Although the game really doesnt pick up speed untill you leave Old Ascalon, there is a lot to learn from it. Playing with a group and Leaving to Join the Academy is where the real fun begins. So one cant play 3 hours and think, this is guild wars. I had such an adrennaline rush my 1st battle leaving Old Ascalon, it was absolutly undescribable. Still only knowing basic combinations we won our 1st match and went over the wall....

So in rebuttal, i belive Old Ascalon is the supreme starting place to get a feel for the camera, learn some moves, a few spells, and a lot of friends.

Way to Go, Wrath!! Glad you got the Rush. Good luck & Good Hunting! Hope to see you there.

I know this is going to sound a little blunt, but who cares what it seems like to those who have not read up on the game? They shelled out the cash and if they don't like the game because of Pre-Searing Ascalon then who really cares. It's not taking away from your gameplay experience, if anything it's improving it. ArenaNet already got the money and if the person doesn't play it they are also saving server resources. So nuts to the fools who are not informed, thats their own problem.

On a side note, I do agree that the starting parties should be more than 2. I have 5-6 friends who are going to have the game at release and we are trying to start a group or possibly a guild. I was hoping we could learn the game together as a group but the 2 limit puts a "restrictor plate" so to speak on that.

Yeah, that's blunt.

Your right, in that the starting party limit of 2 is kinda narrow, but I think the devs are thinking that since living there is so easy, that more than that would be a turkey shoot. But it would be easier to break in more friends at one time if you could group up with more. I've tried getting one or two other folks with a bit of pre-sear experience to help in guiding others about, so that when they all feel like they've got a handle on the basics, they can all go thru the Academy and then team up on the other side. Maybe things will change for the last BWE or for the final release.