I just got out of a 6team free-for-all tombs game. Basically what happened was everyone got through their 1v1's, then our group defeated one of the survivors, and it was us vs. a spirit spam build. We lured them out, seeing the millions of spirits around their priest, and started the battle.
1 hour later (not exaggerating), our team all quit and they went on. The most boring battle I've ever had to witness. Keep in mind we were a PuG that wasn't at all prepared for a spirit spam, and apparently neither were they. There was absolutely no killing going on, it seemed like their build focused solely on staying alive. For an unprepared group (and who the hell makes a build around countering spirit spam? especially PuGs, which are most common in the tombs), there was little we could do. Eventually the other monks started leaving, I myself stuck around for a couple more minutes then left.
So bottom line, NERF!
All jokes aside, we need some sort of beefed up Unnatural Signet or something, cause right now it's incredibly easy to go into tombs and prolong battles for hours. I'm all for creativity and new builds, but when people start to focus on pissing off the opponent and winning by forcing them to leave, that's where you gotta draw the line.
When spirit spam goes bad...
Red Locust
Ollj
no nerf needed.
ppl just realize that one sided teams NEVER have a chance against all teams.
If your team cant counter anything you deserfe to loose.
Same if 2 of such teams met each other.
ppl just realize that one sided teams NEVER have a chance against all teams.
If your team cant counter anything you deserfe to loose.
Same if 2 of such teams met each other.
Elythor
Our guild fought against a spirit spam team and won. We were at Burials grounds, after clearing out the other teams it was just us and a spirit spam team left.
You have to notice that a spirit spam team is much lower on offense than a regular team build. Their main strategy is basically to wait for you to make a mistake, THEN they'll nail you hard. Much more passive tactics compared to a FOTM air spike team. You really need to know what spirit to take out and when. Most spirits are not that high in level (at least the ones we encountered). A level 8 spirit can be taken out easily by wands/staves from casters. Have your main damage dealers go after their players, and have your non-offense casters to take out the spirits.
Prioritize what spirits to take out. Nature's Renewal, Fertile Seaon, Energizing Wind, Quickening Zephyr...these should be high priority. Then just take out other random stuff like Favoring Winds or Greater Conflagation when you have time. And if they decide to put down a Frozen Soil...just check to see what the battle situation is. If you are with the advantage, then Frozen Soil would work in your favour instead.
You have to notice that a spirit spam team is much lower on offense than a regular team build. Their main strategy is basically to wait for you to make a mistake, THEN they'll nail you hard. Much more passive tactics compared to a FOTM air spike team. You really need to know what spirit to take out and when. Most spirits are not that high in level (at least the ones we encountered). A level 8 spirit can be taken out easily by wands/staves from casters. Have your main damage dealers go after their players, and have your non-offense casters to take out the spirits.
Prioritize what spirits to take out. Nature's Renewal, Fertile Seaon, Energizing Wind, Quickening Zephyr...these should be high priority. Then just take out other random stuff like Favoring Winds or Greater Conflagation when you have time. And if they decide to put down a Frozen Soil...just check to see what the battle situation is. If you are with the advantage, then Frozen Soil would work in your favour instead.
Red Locust
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Elythor
Our guild fought against a spirit spam team and won. We were at Burials grounds, after clearing out the other teams it was just us and a spirit spam team left.
You have to notice that a spirit spam team is much lower on offense than a regular team build. Their main strategy is basically to wait for you to make a mistake, THEN they'll nail you hard. Much more passive tactics compared to a FOTM air spike team. You really need to know what spirit to take out and when. Most spirits are not that high in level (at least the ones we encountered). A level 8 spirit can be taken out easily by wands/staves from casters. Have your main damage dealers go after their players, and have your non-offense casters to take out the spirits. Prioritize what spirits to take out. Nature's Renewal, Fertile Seaon, Energizing Wind, Quickening Zephyr...these should be high priority. Then just take out other random stuff like Favoring Winds or Greater Conflagation when you have time. And if they decide to put down a Frozen Soil...just check to see what the battle situation is. If you are with the advantage, then Frozen Soil would work in your favour instead. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ollj
no nerf needed.
ppl just realize that one sided teams NEVER have a chance against all teams. If your team cant counter anything you deserfe to loose. Same if 2 of such teams met each other. |
Prophecyx7
A barrage spammer can quickly kill the spirits while dealing damage to other players, keeping enemy monks busy. Just take out quickning zephyr and you can easily kill everything else.
Red Locust
Once again, killing the spirits is often not an option. Not only are there many instances of quickening zephyr spread out all over the place, but there's also tons of fertile seasons, and those add ~450hp to every other spirit. Barrage won't be killing them anytime soon.
Mumblyfish
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Well then please, do tell how you would counter this build.
|
Kill the Druid. Treat him as you would a, say, protection Monk. What are you, daft?Oh me oh my, that was certainly hard.
Interrupt the Druid. A single Marksman using Distracting Shot will be able to prevent any and all rituals from being cast.
Don't give the Druid a time advantage. In the Hall of Heroes, don't let his team take the altar right away, then wait until the two minute mark, giving him seven/eight minutes to spam away. Also, don't stand back and watch/laugh as the Druid does his stuff. Jump in there and smash them.
Take skills like Edge of Extinction, just in case.
Tuna
I believe spirits have... rather long casts. Just intuerpt the guy and the problem is solved. When you get interupted the skill has to recharge and they waste energy. Oath shot has a rather long recharge time also. If you can't kill 3-4 fertile seasons etc. your team just plain sucks. If you say they concentrate on keeping themselves alive, that means they aren't doing damage, allowing you to run rampant among their spirits.
Eet GnomeSmasher
*sighs* This is no different than facing an all monk team or a team of runners (Yes I've faced a whole team of them doing nothing but running). Prepare for a long long battle and stop calling for nerfs.
Flatliner
Seems the July FOTM is arriving a little early 
ManadartheHealer
No nerf. Just learn how to counter it...research up, develop your own devious strategy, and there you go 
Creston
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
So bottom line, NERF!
|
Sigh.
Creston
Perishiko ReLLiK
Well... aoe kills spirits really fast, considering those spirits can't move out of the way... it's incredibly easy.
And most spike groups won't really need to kill the spirits anyways, just target, and 1,2,3, Blam, target dead, next target... blah, blah, and so on.
And most spike groups won't really need to kill the spirits anyways, just target, and 1,2,3, Blam, target dead, next target... blah, blah, and so on.
anti_z3r0
Edge of Extinction + Balthazar's Aura
oh, and Perishiko ReLLiK, You can't spike someone that has over 1,000 health.
oh, and Perishiko ReLLiK, You can't spike someone that has over 1,000 health.
Elythor
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Killing the spirits is not an option when you have a ranger spamming 50 or so and using oath shot to recharge them.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by anti_z3r0
Edge of Extinction + Balthazar's Aura
oh, and Perishiko ReLLiK, You can't spike someone that has over 1,000 health. |
Weezer_Blue
I wish people would quit coming to the forums and whining because they got owned and are too stupid or not creative enough to develope a counter strategy. They owned you. Get over it. Go back, and win.
Red Locust
Wow, weezer and creston must have something stuck up their ass or something, noone seems to be able to take a joke lightly these days.
Anyways, killing the druid is not an option when he knows he will be targetted and will buff himself to hell, not to mention every single monk will be healing him since their whole strategy relies on him being alive :/ Go ahead and try and spike someone with zephyr and fertile soil active...
Balth's aura doesn't do nearly enough damage to kill the tons of spirits that have 450+hp, and the energy cost is simply hideous with zephyr. Same with AoEs. A smart ranger spreads out his spirits.
Your only chance is to have 2+ mesmers or rangers to continuously interrupt the bastards, else they will more often than not be able to spam their spirits anyways. And that takes a specific build that most PuGs wont be able to pull off (which was the focus of this thread). And god forbid they're holding HoH and have the time to spam their stuff.
PS: lmao weezer. You call forcing your opponent to quit after 1 hour of mind-numbingly boring combat, ownage? Man your standards are low. For the record, we later won the HoH and held it 4 times (not that it's something special).
edit: one of the obvious weakness of spirit spam is that enemy mo/me can park themselves next to the spirits, cast channeling, and spam the living daylight out of all their skills, which is what we were doing. too bad that only helps defensively, doesn't do squat to quicken the battle.
Anyways, killing the druid is not an option when he knows he will be targetted and will buff himself to hell, not to mention every single monk will be healing him since their whole strategy relies on him being alive :/ Go ahead and try and spike someone with zephyr and fertile soil active...
Balth's aura doesn't do nearly enough damage to kill the tons of spirits that have 450+hp, and the energy cost is simply hideous with zephyr. Same with AoEs. A smart ranger spreads out his spirits.
Your only chance is to have 2+ mesmers or rangers to continuously interrupt the bastards, else they will more often than not be able to spam their spirits anyways. And that takes a specific build that most PuGs wont be able to pull off (which was the focus of this thread). And god forbid they're holding HoH and have the time to spam their stuff.
PS: lmao weezer. You call forcing your opponent to quit after 1 hour of mind-numbingly boring combat, ownage? Man your standards are low. For the record, we later won the HoH and held it 4 times (not that it's something special).
edit: one of the obvious weakness of spirit spam is that enemy mo/me can park themselves next to the spirits, cast channeling, and spam the living daylight out of all their skills, which is what we were doing. too bad that only helps defensively, doesn't do squat to quicken the battle.
Odd Sock
Bleh griefer builds are another flavor of the month thing. Bring EoE on at least one ranger and you'll counter those builds easily. Besides EoE could come in handy when you're taking or holding the HoH (some evil thoughts I'm having with that skill). Don't cry nerf when the counter is so easy and apparent.
Lovag
Just wondering on one thing do all the people that suggest use area effect spells trully think people put all the spirits right beside each other? I know I wouldnt if I was using a spirit spam team.
BladeX3I
[QUOTE=Red Locust]You call forcing your opponent to quit after 1 hour of mind-numbingly boring combat, ownage?/QUOTE]
I don't think that "ownage" but if it works I won't blame them for trying something different.
This game is just like any other. It's all about the metagame. You have a build that can beat another build, but there is always someone else with yet a different build that can beat you. That's the way it should be.
Hmmm.... and from what I was told Rangers suck in PvP
I don't think that "ownage" but if it works I won't blame them for trying something different.
This game is just like any other. It's all about the metagame. You have a build that can beat another build, but there is always someone else with yet a different build that can beat you. That's the way it should be.
Hmmm.... and from what I was told Rangers suck in PvP
Red Locust
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Odd Sock
Bleh griefer builds are another flavor of the month thing. Bring EoE on at least one ranger and you'll counter those builds easily. Besides EoE could come in handy when you're taking or holding the HoH (some evil thoughts I'm having with that skill). Don't cry nerf when the counter is so easy and apparent.
|
And god forbid the ranger had the brains to equip mantra of resolve (un-interruptible), then you might as well throw in the towel.
Creston
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Wow, weezer and creston must have something stuck up their ass or something, noone seems to be able to take a joke lightly these days.
|
Try using a smiley after a joke next time, so that the rest of the world gets it too.
Creston
Red Locust
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Creston
Ooohhhh right, after you got no support for your whine, now you pretend you were joking, and I'm just uptight. Right.
Try using a smiley after a joke next time, so that the rest of the world gets it too. Creston |
Kaelan
I love how any time somebody's PuG loses to a clever build, they scream and whine for it to be nerfed. How exactly is it balanced for a PuG to win over a carefully built team? You should be losing!
Red Locust
Ok i think i'll say this one last time.
First, the nerf comment was a joke. we discussed it to death, we're clear about it.
Second, we did not lose. People started leaving after one hour because it was getting rediculous and nobody was winning. They won by default. That is called griefing, not losing. This is like calling those Wa/Mo arena builds that do absolutely nothing other than survive the entire time, clever. No cleverness involved, just a simple selection of skills that prolongs the game forever.
First, the nerf comment was a joke. we discussed it to death, we're clear about it.
Second, we did not lose. People started leaving after one hour because it was getting rediculous and nobody was winning. They won by default. That is called griefing, not losing. This is like calling those Wa/Mo arena builds that do absolutely nothing other than survive the entire time, clever. No cleverness involved, just a simple selection of skills that prolongs the game forever.
salja Wachi
how about this one????
just wait them out and let them come to you
who cares if it takes a while rome was not built in a day
just wait them out and let them come to you
who cares if it takes a while rome was not built in a day
Kaelan
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Ok i think i'll say this one last time.
First, the nerf comment was a joke. we discussed it to death, we're clear about it. Second, we did not lose. People started leaving after one hour because it was getting rediculous and nobody was winning. They won by default. That is called griefing, not losing. This is like calling those Wa/Mo arena builds that do absolutely nothing other than survive the entire time, clever. No cleverness involved, just a simple selection of skills that prolongs the game forever. |
Creston
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
i guess you failed to notice the "all jokes aside" line right below the (at least I thought) comical nerf comment.
|
Creston
KuTeBaka
each spirit takes 5 seconds to cast, there are only a couple spells that take longer, and they are res spells. Hell, half the res spells take less time to cast. are you just sitting there letting them pump out spirits? do something about the caster, you should have at least one interupter. by the way, spirits cant move, so aoe spells will help alot here.
Evan The Cursed
Wow, I'm really beginning to hate this forum.
Red Locust
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by KuTeBaka
each spirit takes 5 seconds to cast, there are only a couple spells that take longer, and they are res spells. Hell, half the res spells take less time to cast. are you just sitting there letting them pump out spirits? do something about the caster, you should have at least one interupter. by the way, spirits cant move, so aoe spells will help alot here.
|
Mantra of Resolve (inspiration): For 30-78 seconds, you cannot be interrupted, but each time you would have been interrupted, you lose 7-3 Energy or Mantra of Resolve ends. (10,0,20)
There are many energy management options available to a R/Me that has points in inspiration magic, so the 3 energy per interrupt isnt a problem (plus, most builds can't spam interrupts endlessly).
Please, I'm looking for input and most effective counters, from people who've played or faced this build and have experience with it. There are many theoretical counters that sound all dandy on paper, but don't look quite as good on the battlefield.
ComMan
Hasn't Fertile Season already been nerfed? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it once gave more than +15 armor.
You could use your own example to say that healers should be nerfed. They had a sound defensive strategy, you did not have a sound offensive strategy to match. They should have been able to wear your team down, but they couldn't.
Even if you have an interrupter, they can plant their spirit army before you get to then. Aside form that, you can't stop 5-8 spirit factories.
As for "make them come to you lol," if the point is to prolong the game until your team quits then this is just handing them a victory.
You could use your own example to say that healers should be nerfed. They had a sound defensive strategy, you did not have a sound offensive strategy to match. They should have been able to wear your team down, but they couldn't.
Even if you have an interrupter, they can plant their spirit army before you get to then. Aside form that, you can't stop 5-8 spirit factories.
As for "make them come to you lol," if the point is to prolong the game until your team quits then this is just handing them a victory.
KuTeBaka
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Seems you missed my comment on the interrupting, so I'll say it again.
Mantra of Resolve (inspiration): For 30-78 seconds, you cannot be interrupted, but each time you would have been interrupted, you lose 7-3 Energy or Mantra of Resolve ends. (10,0,20) There are many energy management options available to a R/Me that has points in inspiration magic, so the 3 energy per interrupt isnt a problem (plus, most builds can't spam interrupts endlessly). Please, I'm looking for input and most effective counters, from people who've played or faced this build and have experience with it. There are many theoretical counters that sound all dandy on paper, but don't look quite as good on the battlefield. |
EoE will hurt all spirits once any spirit dies, they all have a limited amount of time before they die. Just set the eoe, then wait till spirits start dying.
Try putting disease on a spirit, it will slowly spread if there are that many around.
anti_z3r0
If I were to set up a whole bunch of dominoes in a line, what do you think would be the most efficient way to make them all fall down?
Think of EoE as a spirit that converts spirits into dominoes. Also, think of the range of EoE as the distance required for a domino to hit another domino.
Now, I ask you. If spirits are dominoes....and they're all next to each other.....what would be the most efficient way to knock over (kill) all of them?
Think of EoE as a spirit that converts spirits into dominoes. Also, think of the range of EoE as the distance required for a domino to hit another domino.
Now, I ask you. If spirits are dominoes....and they're all next to each other.....what would be the most efficient way to knock over (kill) all of them?
Oni No Arashi
Hark... what's this?
Someone complaining about the most non-used proffession in Tombs being useful? (Rangers + their spirits?) And the counter being more... RANGERS? (Distracting Shot, Choking Gas, etc)...
YES!
Just sounds to me that someone wasn't ready for a team to actually be using Rangers and using them right. Guess they need to remember that they're part of the game in the first place.
I think he's just pissed because they were owned by Rangers!
Someone complaining about the most non-used proffession in Tombs being useful? (Rangers + their spirits?) And the counter being more... RANGERS? (Distracting Shot, Choking Gas, etc)...
YES!
Just sounds to me that someone wasn't ready for a team to actually be using Rangers and using them right. Guess they need to remember that they're part of the game in the first place.
I think he's just pissed because they were owned by Rangers!
Tellani Artini
How to stop ritual builds:
1. Identify who is casting the ritual(s) and interrupt them when they try to cast
2. Kill the existing spirits
3. Continue
How not to stop ritual builds:
- Energy drain the ritualist (they only cost 5)
- Use backfire on the ritualist (rituals are not spells, durrr)
- Kill the ritualist before killing the monks (if it's a competent ritual team, it's not gonna work)
- Ignore the spirits
Sadly, these four things are what you see more often than the first three.
Choking gas doesn't work, for the same reason backfire doesn't.
1. Identify who is casting the ritual(s) and interrupt them when they try to cast
2. Kill the existing spirits
3. Continue
How not to stop ritual builds:
- Energy drain the ritualist (they only cost 5)
- Use backfire on the ritualist (rituals are not spells, durrr)
- Kill the ritualist before killing the monks (if it's a competent ritual team, it's not gonna work)
- Ignore the spirits
Sadly, these four things are what you see more often than the first three.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi
And the counter being more... RANGERS? (Distracting Shot, Choking Gas, etc)...
|
Flatliner
The issue I think that most people have with spirit builds is that they are Anti-Spike builds. Since we have so many spike builds out there now that, 2 weeks ago, we're uncontested, people are having a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that we're in a new FOTM-style.
IxChel
Malestorm works excellent for this case; for 10 seconds it does an AoE interrupt a good size area, and even does a bit damage. Since those spirits are probably clustered, and they are hanging out by their priest; just AoE them to death.
kungfumonkey2
NO NERFS!
Adapt, overcome or become extinct. Learn to battle the build. I beat a spirit spam Guild with a PUG once. Just went in and fought them. Remember it is level playing ground guys. What effects you effects them. Yes our casters mana was leeched, but so was there's.
Yes you can try to wait out a spirit spamming team. Tried that against a Korean team one time. They pretty much just built a bridge of spirits to our priest.
Isn't there a necro skill called Epidemic? Or is that just monster? Where you spread negative conditions to all party members.
Adapt, overcome or become extinct. Learn to battle the build. I beat a spirit spam Guild with a PUG once. Just went in and fought them. Remember it is level playing ground guys. What effects you effects them. Yes our casters mana was leeched, but so was there's.
Yes you can try to wait out a spirit spamming team. Tried that against a Korean team one time. They pretty much just built a bridge of spirits to our priest.
Isn't there a necro skill called Epidemic? Or is that just monster? Where you spread negative conditions to all party members.
Tellani Artini
Maelstrom does not interrupt rituals. Rituals are not spells. Maelstrom doesn't do a ton of damage either. Against a competent ritual team they are not hanging out by their priest and they are certainly not clustered. It might work against amateur spirit users that are trying to rip off the supposed new FOTM without knowing what they're doing.