When spirit spam goes bad...

Aernok

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Texas

Appetite For Destruction

R/Mo

23 Jun 2005 at 19:08 - 41
Quote:
Well then please, do tell how you would counter this build.
Skipped the majority of posts... sorry if this was already mentioned.

For one you have to stop with the "NEED 4 AIR ELE, 3 MONK FOR HOH GRP!" mentality and get a pick-up group who aren't going to try easily counterable builds (like spike builds).

In other words, grab a ranger and some mesmers.

Have the ranger bring edge of extinction. That spirit alone = death to spirit spam. It's like a complete chain reaction of deaths to all their spirits after you kill a few.

Have the mesmers lock-down the rangers a bit. You won't be able to completely stop the spirits but you can help. If you see a ranger with greater conflagration he should be your first lock-down target. Greater Conflag = Elite. Oath shot = elite, therefore he's dependent on Serpent's Quickness and Quickening Zephyr for his skill recharge.

If you have more than one mesmer, have the other keep oath shot down. It will help to slow their spirits. Slowing them down is more effective than ignoring them!!!!

Edge of Extinction is the big one here. Throw it down. Kill off a few spirits and they'll all go down in a chain reaction.

What's that? The Ranger class is useful???

Tellani Artini

Tellani Artini

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

America

The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

R/

23 Jun 2005 at 19:11 - 42
EoE also counters the niche undead minion builds, and has.. interesting applications in HoH.

Studio Ghibli

Studio Ghibli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Gaelic Storm

23 Jun 2005 at 19:14 - 43
.. ran into my first spirit build in the HoH yesterday.

It wasn't that.. hard, actually.

Either the spirit team wasn't very good, or people having an issue with spirit builds are those builds who are narrowly defined as to be unable to handle it.

Kishin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

The Twilight Vanguard [TTV]

R/

23 Jun 2005 at 19:15 - 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellani Artini
EoE also counters the niche undead minion builds, and has.. interesting applications in HoH.
Like dying to an AoE on the Altar, having the EoE wipe out the opposition (and you) while you're still up there, thereby continuing to hold the hall? Dude, I thought that was a necro hack.

Seriously, that was brilliant and remains one of my favorite posts on this forum.

provoko

provoko

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Brooklyn, NY

R/Me

23 Jun 2005 at 20:07 - 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oni No Arashi
Hark... what's this?

Someone complaining about the most non-used proffession in Tombs being useful? (Rangers + their spirits?) And the counter being more... RANGERS?

YES!

I think he's just pissed because they were owned by Rangers!
Hahaha, funny. Next we're gonna get a thread on nerfing rangers, haha.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

23 Jun 2005 at 21:09 - 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellani Artini
How to stop ritual builds:

1. Identify who is casting the ritual(s) and interrupt them when they try to cast
2. Kill the existing spirits
3. Continue

How not to stop ritual builds:

- Energy drain the ritualist (they only cost 5)
- Use backfire on the ritualist (rituals are not spells, durrr)
- Kill the ritualist before killing the monks (if it's a competent ritual team, it's not gonna work)
- Ignore the spirits

Sadly, these four things are what you see more often than the first three.



Choking gas doesn't work, for the same reason backfire doesn't.
Yeah, interruption is the only reliable way of stopping this build. So then what happens if the ranger prepares for this? Glyph of Concentration, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Resolve. What then?

It seems the new trend will be to bring a lot of warriors and rangers along to take full advantage of spirit spam, rather than try and counter it. But even then, the spirit spamming team will have a much greater advantage since it's prepared to work with the rituals.

hydrak

hydrak

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

23 Jun 2005 at 22:58 - 47
If spirit spammers are a group of all rangers and monks, why don't you just go right next to them and fight? That way you enjoy the same benefits from spirits as them.

Tellani Artini

Tellani Artini

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

America

The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

R/

23 Jun 2005 at 23:50 - 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Locust
Yeah, interruption is the only reliable way of stopping this build. So then what happens if the ranger prepares for this? Glyph of Concentration, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Resolve. What then?

It seems the new trend will be to bring a lot of warriors and rangers along to take full advantage of spirit spam, rather than try and counter it. But even then, the spirit spamming team will have a much greater advantage since it's prepared to work with the rituals.
Then knockdown. R/Me doesn't have anything to stop a gale or shock, and if a hammer warrior is sneaky about it he can build up adren on another target to go hammer bash the unsuspecting ritualist before they can throw dirt/put up whirling.

The mesmer anti-interrupt defenses are still limited by energy and recast time, so if you combine energy drain with fast ranger interrupts you can defeat them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrak
If spirit spammers are a group of all rangers and monks, why don't you just go right next to them and fight? That way you enjoy the same benefits from spirits as them.
You make it sound so simple. Do you know what these rituals do? Unless your whole team is build around those rituals, you're still at a big disadvantage.

hydrak

hydrak

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

24 Jun 2005 at 00:31 - 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellani Artini
You make it sound so simple. Do you know what these rituals do? Unless your whole team is build around those rituals, you're still at a big disadvantage.
Just like an all air spike team, a spirit spamming team is just another 1-dimensional team. Although we haven't tried this build yet, I think 6Warrior/2monk team can easily beat a 6ranger/2monk spirit spamming team.

Mumblyfish

Mumblyfish

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Blighty

Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

24 Jun 2005 at 00:36 - 50
Why would a Nature Ritual team use 6 Rangers? Of course, that's one-dimensional, but no team worth it's salt would roll with predominantly one class. It's just asking to get your head caved in.

kungfumonkey2

kungfumonkey2

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Virginia

ACE~Ancient Combat Experts

E/Mo

24 Jun 2005 at 14:22 - 51
Fought a Spirit build team of 5 rangers 3 monks once. They blew our warrior out of the water first, followed by necro, elemental so on then lastly monk (me). From what I could tell they had maybe 2 spirit spammers, the other 3 were damage dealers. I had never witnessed the power of rangers attacking before. They are so underplayed. Melandru's arrow + poison + insendiary+ whatever else mixed with all the crazy effects from winter and conflagulation. They took out our melee first, because to them he posed more of a threat. I am glad someone finally brought rangers into the lime light. I just cant wait to see the 5Me/3Monk build. That will be the most dominant build. Air Spike teams are a thing of the past IMO.

Quote:
Although we haven't tried this build yet, I think 6Warrior/2monk team can easily beat a 6ranger/2monk spirit spamming team.
Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone that, cause it is the next big build.

provoko

provoko

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Brooklyn, NY

R/Me

24 Jun 2005 at 15:35 - 52
6w/2m is too easy to counter. Besides, isn't that one of the first team builds ever.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 00:34 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellani Artini
Then knockdown. R/Me doesn't have anything to stop a gale or shock, and if a hammer warrior is sneaky about it he can build up adren on another target to go hammer bash the unsuspecting ritualist before they can throw dirt/put up whirling.

The mesmer anti-interrupt defenses are still limited by energy and recast time, so if you combine energy drain with fast ranger interrupts you can defeat them.
Hammer warriors pose a threat, but warriors are probably the biggest threat to the spirit spam build in general, so I'm sure the group will have a counter to them. A simple soothing images and that warrior is useless, not to mention the tons of wards/enchantments that protect vs. warriors, and the many snares around.

Gale and Shock work, but are impractical. The ranger is continuously spamming spirits, and an ele would get exhausted very soon. Considering that this strategy relies on long, drawn-out battles, the exhausted ele will soon become a dead weight on the enemy team.

So basically, ele's cannot do it. Interrupts are easily counterable, as are hammer warriors. Killing all the spirits and the ranger are out of the question. Right now, this build lacks a reliable counter (such as the prot. spirit/RoF combo against air spike builds).

Genos

Genos

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Amazon Basin

R/E

25 Jun 2005 at 00:59 - 54
Hmm, tis an ineresting thread. and yes EoE has some distinct possiblltiyes here.. ive used that Skill PvE and it is powerful - the domino effect is also quite amusing.. so id love to see an EoE based team - that could be great fun.. and hey, for uniqueness, bring pets! (ouch, i just found a nice team build i think..)

there will be a way, and it shall be fun!

in this case its a defensive build - so, how can you beat a defense style? think of it like a RTs - good porqupine players were a pina the ass to beat as they nullfyied attacks - but they didnt do much esle, and relied on attrion to win - so look at other ways - even, the horror.. Zerg tactics? do something unexpected - prehaps a emass AoE build? why spike if they are nicley clustered for you? or prehaps go for a full beastmaster style - let the pets run and start beating the poo out of them, while you stay back and shot- theres plenty of ways im sure


and as a ranger myself, im loving see that we are now being ntoiced =)

InvaderGIR

InvaderGIR

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 01:27 - 55
OT: I still think the best way to win HoH was with a PUG where everybody had a level 20 strider pet and pumped all their points into Beast Mastery. Granted, it was luck, but it happened and it made my week.

Tellani Artini

Tellani Artini

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

America

The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

R/

25 Jun 2005 at 01:37 - 56
EoE is still the best counter to anything-spam. I think every team build should bring along a ranger for rituals (counters and rituals that improve the overall strategy) and utility. Got a lot of warriors? Toss in winnowing. Lots of elementalists? Energizing wind. Lots of rangers? Favorable winds and muddy terrain. Lots of mesmers stealing energy? Quickening zephyr is perfect. Lots of necro minions? Winnowing again. Look at your build's strengths/weaknesses, and augment/diminish them with rituals. And no, you don't have to "spam" rituals for them to be effective. Some team builds just use a ton of them to totally alter the battlefield. If you're designing a build, at least look through the rituals to learn what they do.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 04:07 - 57
OK this has hit a new level of ridiculousness. Just a while ago, my group faced not one, but TWO spirit spamming groups. Man, same story as always, my team left 40 minutes into it.

What was even worse this time was that the 2 spirit spammers parked within arrow's distance of each other, spammed all their spirits, and sat there plinking each other with arrows.

We tried, to no avail, to attack one of the teams, over and over again, but not only did we have to deal with their ranger and their spirits, but also the ranger and spirits of the other team nearby. Absolutely nothing. The ranger was getting healing seeds, healing hands, anything you can imagine, he was getting it. We couldn't move his health at all. Buffs were getting put up as soon as they were getting removed. Someone had EoE, but it was getting killed almost as soon as it was set up. Our mesmer was working his ass off on the enemy ranger....nothing.

Just ridiculous.

I'm now pretty much positive that it takes a dedicated guild team with a build that is tailored to countering this spirit crap to even stand a chance of beating this build. PuG? FORGET IT! I'm starting to encounter these builds so often that it's slowly killing my desire to play tombs. As soon as I see a spirit up, that's a battle at least 30 minutes long right there.

I could really use some advice from all these people that are posting their "LOL quit whining and find a way to counter them" post.

Tellani Artini

Tellani Artini

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

America

The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

R/

25 Jun 2005 at 04:31 - 58
That's why a bad ritual team is so much more annoying than a good one. The good ones actually kill you, but the bad ones don't do anything and are overdefensive.

You need to target the right spirits. Always get fertile season first, since it buffs the others. Then eliminate quickening zephyr (it halves the skill recharge time for setting up new spirits). Devote all of your firepower to spirit-slaying and it'll go by really fast. Meanwhile, have your team's rangers or axe warriors distracting attack their ritualists. If they're using anti-interrupt mantras, bring wild blow or drain their energy to end it. If they're using whirling defense, hit them with wild blow or rigor mortis. If all that fails, a knockdown will give you guaranteed results.

If you hate spirit builds enough, you'll bring all of the aforementioned skills, especially Wild Blow, a quite underrated warrior skill. Don't let your warriors complain; it's for the team. Also, brief team members on what to do if they encounter a spirit build. You won't beat it with the usual "shoot smash chop the monk" tactics, sorry.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 04:49 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellani Artini
That's why a bad ritual team is so much more annoying than a good one. The good ones actually kill you, but the bad ones don't do anything and are overdefensive.

You need to target the right spirits. Always get fertile season first, since it buffs the others. Then eliminate quickening zephyr (it halves the skill recharge time for setting up new spirits). Devote all of your firepower to spirit-slaying and it'll go by really fast. Meanwhile, have your team's rangers or axe warriors distracting attack their ritualists. If they're using anti-interrupt mantras, bring wild blow or drain their energy to end it. If they're using whirling defense, hit them with wild blow or rigor mortis. If all that fails, a knockdown will give you guaranteed results.

If you hate spirit builds enough, you'll bring all of the aforementioned skills, especially Wild Blow, a quite underrated warrior skill. Don't let your warriors complain; it's for the team. Also, brief team members on what to do if they encounter a spirit build. You won't beat it with the usual "shoot smash chop the monk" tactics, sorry.
Yeah no kidding. The thing with killing the spirits is, these so-called bad spirit spammers that are overrunning the tombs are bent on surviving as long as possible. They sit there and spam their spirits, giving them a huge head start in numbers when we eventually have to go attack them. At that point, it takes way too long to kill every spirit while they are focusing on us.

As for the ranger, god I can't believe how many bloody annoying tactics there are for them to stay out of harm's way. I swear, if a group was bent on protecting a R/Me, he could remain untouchable for the entire game. Whirling this, dodge that, spellbreakers, life bonds...
Warriors' biggest problem is that they have to get within melee range, and a half-decent team won't allow that. The counters to this build are way too specific to be pulled off by anything short of a top class team.

I created (and play) a prot/healing monk for the sole purpose of countering those bloody annoying air spike builds. Now it looks like I'm gonna have to grind through the pve again just to make a ranger debilitating/distracting shot spammer just to have a shot at countering the below-average ranger spirit spammers.

Flame Skyborn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

R/

25 Jun 2005 at 05:07 - 60
Theoretically, this build would tear down a spirit wall.

8 R/E's

Skills-

EoE
Serpent's Quickness
Conjure X
Barrage
Quickening Zephyr
Energizing Wind
Troll Unguent
Whirling Defense (Err, for sentimental reasons. Troll Unguent too)

Hopefully, the spirit wall will already include Quickening Zephy, and Energizing, so no worries about putting those up. But just in case, you know? Each ranger throws an EoE out, then hits Serpent's and Conjure X. Then, all the rangers would spam barrage into the spirits, while waiting for EoE to recharge, then they would throw in another set of EoE's.

Of course, using this build would make you completely useless against anything other than a wall of spirits.

But anyway, aside from the pointless commentary, wouldn't EoE backfire on itself?

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 05:16 - 61
Yeah EoE backfires on itself, but with fertile season up (and it always is), EoE won't die anytime soon. Same goes for everything else. And the enemy will pounce on EoE first chance it gets.

Otherwise, that build could work (although you have no healing and too much overlapping of skills), but as you mentioned, you are useless vs. anything else. An all ranger warrior team will work vs. spirits, but they're quite gimped vs. anything else. The point is to find a counter that does not involve mimicking the other team and beating them at their own game, since you never know what the other team will be running.

Flame Skyborn

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

R/

25 Jun 2005 at 05:20 - 62
Ah I see, I was wondering about that. (EoE that is)

If all else fails though, after taking care of a spirit wall with that build, you could set up a spirit wall of your own. Maybe switch out two R/E's with Mo/R's for healing, and to be able to throw in a couple spirits themselves. But yea.

Oni No Arashi

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Puget Sound area, WA State

KnightMare Brigade [KB]

E/R

25 Jun 2005 at 06:43 - 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Locust
As for the ranger, god I can't believe how many bloody annoying tactics there are for them to stay out of harm's way. I swear, if a group was bent on protecting a R/Me, he could remain untouchable for the entire game. Whirling this, dodge that, spellbreakers, life bonds...
Warriors' biggest problem is that they have to get within melee range, and a half-decent team won't allow that. The counters to this build are way too specific to be pulled off by anything short of a top class team.
Negative, there are a few builds already mentioned here...

I still ask, why is everyone complaining so? It's Rangers right? Aren't they useless in the HOH?

Quote:
I created (and play) a prot/healing monk for the sole purpose of countering those bloody annoying air spike builds. Now it looks like I'm gonna have to grind through the pve again just to make a ranger debilitating/distracting shot spammer just to have a shot at countering the below-average ranger spirit spammers.
Hmm... funny, this build was designed to take down the spike build teams. FOTM... so yeah, you'll have to come up with another plan for this type of team. The thing is, the HOH is so much a dynamic battle ground, you never know what you're going to come up against, and you will end up with a loss if you're not ready.

You just try again.

I'm still finding it funny that not a few weeks after everyone was posting about how useless Rangers were in the game, NOW they're the build to piss people off and start winning.

Comes the penance for such disdain for them. And now, they're calling for nerfs on the class that no one wanted.

No Nerfs.

We've had the big time monk spam healing builds with the W/Mo's that could last for hours if they needed to.

A few more in between there.

We've had the big time spike builds with the huge damage potential.

Now the Ranger's have the trapper and spirit spammers that are winning and making others upset.

Adapt and change... all you can do.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

25 Jun 2005 at 07:29 - 64
The only people who ever called rangers useless were the inexperienced. I'm pretty sure noone who knew what he was talking about ever called rangers useless. If by "adapt and change" you simply mean taking warriors and rangers to the tombs in hopes of taking advantage of the spirit spam, well, I don't see many other options.

Thing is, air spike builds had a simple counter in prot.spirit/RoF, which any decent prot. monk carries with him. This new FoTM is almost impossible to counter by PuGs, meaning we're gonna be seeing even more people run the same build. That is what's so bad about the current situation.

wheel

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

25 Jun 2005 at 07:52 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatliner
Seems the July FOTM is arriving a little early

Christmas in July!!

Xellos

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

No Idea

25 Jun 2005 at 10:14 - 66
The problem with tombs is that it is designed as a tournament. A tournament is suppose to be the best playing, or at least people who are going serious. PuGs technically aren't designed for tombs, but it's an option. The sad part is that since arena and team arena are jokes and have 0 prestige, everyone picks tombs. Add the fact that tombs holds more players, and you have people wanting to tombs more then arena. Arena is suppose to be for the casual players, tombs the hardcore, and GvG can cater to both. Tombs has 0 insurance that a crappy team can have fun, because they just get slaughtered over and over? What if a casual group of friends have really busy lives? You can't expect them to evolve enough to catch the flavours of the months let alone make counters. Yet they won't play arena. Why? Arena sucks.

Anet needs to put emphasis on what pvp scenario is for generally what type of player. Secondly, they need to put some point in arena, not mindless killing. Incentives always work, you just have to be creative enough to make one that isn't lame. Fame would be sad, since arena fame would be considered pathetic, but you seriously need something for arena. Random arena seems well done, since it's super casual and just suicide plays, no need for reward since it has 0 test of skill, but for team arena, you should have some kind of incentives. Heck, even put incentives on random arena if you want.

Porkchop Sandwhiches

Porkchop Sandwhiches

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fishing Village in Wizard's Folly

R/

25 Jun 2005 at 10:23 - 67
The group arenas need more areas that take *thinking* to acomplish. I personally hate the cave zone with the priests, but that's the kind of direction it needs to go. Just sitting there and killing each other first is kinda... lame

Plus it would be nice if it were at least 6 players in a group. With four people in a group, you usually don't see any weird combinations or builds there, just the typical warrior, monk, and two damage dealers.

-z|o-

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2005

26 Jun 2005 at 00:38 - 68
Anet should add DP back for using spirits the way it used to be in betas. The problem is not to kill spirit team, but to kill them fast enough. Basically this becomes an issue in altar maps where you only have 10 mins. And gawd forbid if a spirit team is holding HoH and your team is matched against a worthy opponent in the first fight which might take more time than could be affordable.

EoE is a goood counter but it doesnt work very well against a well organized spirit factory team. EoE will basically give you 5-10 seconds to spike GH before the spirits are back up. Even if you manage to kill the other team's hero you gotta get your own hero to teh altar and have fun doing that with 894549875485856 spirits poping up on your way blocking you and your hero.

Fantras

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Sacramento California

House Palomides

Mo/Me

26 Jun 2005 at 01:47 - 69
I hate to say it, but it's called losing. You didn't bring the appropriate counter and they couldn't be killed. It's a lame way to win, true, but it's a win none-the-less.