Update still doesn't allow full attribute refund points in town? It officially sucks

Yes, some might be all giddy that they can now unlock a minor Insipiration rune after 140+ wins in arenas. Whoopee. However, for those who want the same freedom for changing Attribute points around that Arena.net allows for changing secondaries and skills (just so we can actually play a couple of unique builds without grinding 6,000 XP in the PvE farm fields), the lack of an update to it is very puzzling.

We've seen dozens of threads on the matter, and as more people leave PvE (where this issue doesn't matter at all) and graduate to primary PvP play, it'll continue to be brought up. Why? Because, as it stands, there is NO benefit at all to leaving it as is, but it slows you down to a crawl when you are creating and testing innovative PvP builds with your long-developed character.

Many, many clear and compelling reasons have been presented for the change. Absolutely all "arguments" against it have been vague ("it keeps the challenge!"), unhelpful ("just don't change your builds so much") or simply ridiculous ("don't like it? Go play Counter Strike").

PvP-only creations don't refund the points since you can't farm grind (except after winning 15 matches) and many of us want to continue to grow with our original character. Sure, delete everytime - but if it serves the same purpose of resetting in town, why go through the hassle?

No one has been able to address why Arena.net allows so much unhindered freedom for secondary and skill change, but not for the Attribute refund points that support those changes. No one addresses how in ANY way, refunding the 24 points (in a TOWN only!) would harm the economy, the play mechanics, the balance, or any other significant gameplay experience.

Any counter-argument you can think of however, I'd ask one question... why not apply that same standard to freely switching secondaries and skills? Having to grind 6,000 XP to change those components seems too ridiculous to even suggest, right? And that is proof of how ridiculous this restriction is. All three components work together, so all three deserve to be freely adjusted (in town only!).

If the change we've been requesting had been made today, how many of you would HONESTLY ever notice (or care) that someone is changing their Attribute points as freely as we are allowed to for secondaries and skills? Think about it. Only the 1v1 arena request has probably gotten more threads created.

There are two black and white scenarios we're talking about here... it's not complicated at all:

A) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you grind away on the unrelated PvE farm (that's been nerfed) for 6,000 XP.

B) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you go to town and are away from battle.

We all currently endure 'A' for our carefully developed characters. What purpose does this forced farm grind, for those of us who have finished PvE completely, serve the game? A and B serve the EXACT same purpose, but design decision 'A' has a fat wad of grind dropped into it that benefits NO ONE, especially the concept of fun play. We've already FOUGHT those monsters... what does it have to do with PvP creativity? And all it would've taken was for Arena.net to do what? Type in a 5 minutes worth of code to restore a single value to '24' whenever a town is entered?

Guild Wars as a game gets a sterling 98% from me and I recommend it to all my friends. Arena.net's continued attention to the evolving (and at times conflicting) needs of the community is to be thanked and commended as a sterling example in the gaming industry as to how a company succeeds with their public. PvE was fun and exciting, and I eagerly await the time when I can pony up the $$$ for more adventures.

That does not keep a lot of us PvP players from constantly point at the one huge creativity-hindering and unnecessary splinter that is begging to be pulled out - please, please, please: reset the refund points back to 24 once we enter a town.

Why not just make a new PvP character?

It really isn't that big of a deal right now IMO, since you can just make a PVP char to test stuff.

Always something to complain about...when will it end?

Now I'm not saying I don't agree, it would be nice to have more easily aquired refund points. But seriously, can't you enjoy the new updates first before asking for more?

Very little in the update for me. I want to create builds and test them freely, not farm nerfed PvE areas for XP. But by all means, enjoy it if it serves your needs. I won't criticize how you have fun and ask the same respect from you.

Addressed:

If the only thing keeping me from using my 200-hour time-invested character is this poor design situation that serves no legitimate purpose (away from battle), then there's no reason not to allow the change.

someones always not happy.

I never saw anything in there message about the this update that it was going to change this. infact this update seemed to be pretty much all PvP only (which it is. plus a few bug fixes)

how about you leave your complaining until they SAY there going to add this, then dont hey?

and I doubt Anet has 5000 programmers to do everything in 2 weeks

what he said earlier is that he refuses to delete a single pve character to make a pvp slot

Complaints will always come up, whether I make it or not, on issues that the public want attention on. Where's the rule book that says it must come from the developer first?

5000 programmers for this simple but significantly positive change? Addressed above:

Like I said, the substance of my position is very sound. All attacks come for simply bringing an issue up. The merits of the request is rarely, if ever, directly addressed.

Not me, but there are quite a few people that do have all slots filled with PvE characters who've earned level 20 the hard way. Are you guys really trying to say that they must be forced to delete a hard-earned character simply because of a weak (or overlooked) design decision? Have more heart than that. How will the change hurt this game in any way at all?

And before it comes again, everyone please realize that either way, attribute refund points are a complete NON-issue for most who are still playing PvE. This is usually a great concern for us when XP points are far and few between, and, more importantly, we shouldn't have to play PvE to make these simple PvP changes. So no need to tell us how you're able to get by with Echo'd Cosmic Storm strats on trolls and drakes over and over and over without having to change your points around.

[QUOTE=arredondo]Not me, QUOTE]

i apologize for the mix up

my oops

Having full att. refund in town defeats the purpose of having them. Since you cant change your skills outside of town, why would you want to vary your att points in a mission? Only rarely would you want to. I think att refund pts are there to reduce the rate at which you can vary your pve character.

I don't mind that between levels 1-20 - since you're doing missions and getting xp fast, but once you've finished the game, it becomes tricky - xp-bearing monsters are usually pretty tough, there's no big 1000xp missions/quests to do, etc.

So, my take - once a character FINISHES the game, he doesnt need to use refund points at all anymore, he can vary atts at will.

Or maybe 1 att refund point = 1 faction point in the new system?

5000 programmers to program every request that they think is worthy from every post withing the community of guild wars! your not the only person with a request that sounds good.

so I'll repeat.

how about your wait until they say there going to do something about this and dont before you complain.

perhaps they think this is a great idea, but dont exactly see it as a SUPER IMPORTANT OMG OMG MUST BE FIXED NOW!!!!1!!!!11one problem
and most likely have a huge list of bugs, exploits, errors, fixes, tweaks, and additions that actually are MORE important than this

think

Its cause they use their PvP character to Mule stuff for them. IE Hoarding... And they are unwilling to just delete their character as they are suppose too when they want to rebuild, cause they got all kinds of stuff in the characters inventory. In other words they are lame... And don't understand the concept of how a PvP character is suppose to work.

I have been begging Arenanet to make PvP characters not able to hold bags or belts for this very reason... A backpack is More then enough Maybe even too much for a normal PvP build. You dont pick anything up in PvP except maybe a sigil... when you win HoH.

Three cheers for logic. But the system does have its purpose in battle I guess. Something about preventing huge changes to different attributes on the field, but I only ask for town changes (as have a LOT of people).

There's several big 5000xp quests to do. Have you been to UW or FoW? Then again, those are PVE-areas, which don't really matter that much to PVPers..

Fer chrissakes, delete one of those pve-characters, and make new pvp-character when you want to test build.

It only takes 3 characters to get access to every class.

Hysterical, I nearly choked laughing.

Two minutes after the update and he's on the message boards complaining.

I think he enjoys the complaint game more than GW.

It's a lot of points but wait and see how fast you build up. It'll take less time for the things you really want for sure.

Repeat away, but the community will still decide what IT feels is worthy of attention and continue to create threads on it. Again, this is one of the most popular requests so it's not an issue of "changing every little thing." If it makes sense, the public wants it, it doesn't harm gameplay, and is a simple 5-10 minute adjustment, then there's no reason not to improve GW in this way.

Been there, done that. Why force PvP players, who want to make a simple change that's freely allowed for secondaries and skills, go all the way to PvE Underworld to grind for XP? If I did that, do you recommend I bail on the team once I get to 24 points? Should I stay for the eight hours each time to go through the Fissures of Woe, just so I can get back to PvP experimentation?

The best solution often is the simplest. Unless there is some significant harm to the gameplay structure (there's no harm in allowing free change for secondaries and skills mind you), then it's obvious this request is only a GOOD thing.

who says it doesnt harm gameplay? you? of course you and those who support it would say that. perhaps they see a potential problem. perhaps one of the alphas do.

dont assume you know all the complications this may or may not involve.

and for the record, I dont see a problem with this change. what I am TRYING to get at is why are you complaining? if it has indeed been talked about in several threads, I'd say Anet knows about people wanting this change. complaining will get you know where! (just look at all the complaints about the whole PVP thing, and how "quickly" they reacted to that, IE they ignored all the WE WANT THIS posts, acknowledged it was requested, then went about runnin there business how they feel is best)

but why do I bother.... everyone loves to complain. and i mean everyone

One thing which seems to have been missed by those with 4 slots full of pve characters which they use for pvp only. Those item-/skill-/runeunlocks which you can get with faction points? They are there only for your pvp-characters.

..another cheese&wine-thread avalanche coming..

So you have no complaint about the request. You just have a complaint about the complaining. Well what if I want to complain about the complaints towards the complainer?

Listen, believe me when I tell you that from now until next Wednesday evening, I will spend more time in the world of Guild Wars than any other recreational activity that I've put on hold since the release. It is TONS of fun, and I'm not going to lie and say it isn't. I still find this is an important, and as you insinuate yourself, and common sense issue that should be resolved. No major resources are needed to change a line of code or two... but it would make a world of difference.

My guess is that to make it so pvp players get all skill points refunded after every match would take a major coding change to the core engine, since the pvp arenas are most likely linked with pve arenas and guilds halls. It is more than likely this is a core element shared by both pvp and pve, and affecting one would directly affect the other. it would take signifigantly more time and resources from anet to make this change than it would for you to delete and make a new character. I'd rather anet be focusing on the new pve content and ovbserver mode than trying to overhaul the game engine so you can get all refund points after a pvp only match.

The only reason you would really have for not deleting a pvp build is if you've invested enough time that the characer has high fame and rank... but then again, fame and rank don't do anything except for bragging rights. it does add skill points the higher you go i beleive... but you can't spend skill points with pvp character anyway. xp doesn't do anything for pvp build... already at 20 and again, skill points aren't usable by pvp characters.

to OP.

if you are talking about getting refund points. there is one way to get full refund pts from ones used on secondary professions. just switch to another and it gives it right back. and you can switch back to fix it accordingly.

but if your talking about pts for primary. then it is already balanced so that you have to work for them by fighting/acquiring exp for refund pts.

I know of the secondary exploit... if it is ok for changing half your character, no harm is done for changing tall of your points. Yes, we know you can grind it off for your original characters, but if you think about it, how does that serve any purpose at all? Any forced PvE action should have a purpose or it is a grind.

All the hours I put into PvE was forced to reach the end, but it was a 'fun' forced experience that served a purpose (story, skills, etc.), therefore, it's not a grind. Killing the same farm monsters over and over in unrelated PvE just to enjoy freedom in PvP is indeed a grind.

now, I program games (quite complex ones) in a garage-group.

you are right this COULD be done in a few simple codes inserted into the section where it does the town loading.

however, quick programming get-arounds to have something work is generally a bad idea later down the track.

to implement this correctly, the whole attribute refund system would have to be taken out, and re-written. aswell as sections of the XP gaining code (I'd say thats where its linked).


Perhaps you should start using there "ask a question" they always answer my questions quite promptly. and are helpful. which is why you will almost never see my post a complaint (and when I do, anet will have dodged my question, but they havent yet).

this way you will find out from THEM what/if any progress is being done on this.

Fair enough. As a matter of fact, I politely asked Gaile the question directly after she made a comment in a thread from last week. My post was directly below hers (or two at the most).

I even asked for a reason why they aren't changing it if they don't agree with our request. No answers given, so here I am. They say they appreciate our input, so as long as all of the people who want it changed continue to bring it up, they'll hopefully address it one way or the other some day.

If it needs time as you say... I'd wait three months, or even the next purchased update if it were confirmed.... but it really should be changed now if there's no good reason for keeping it.

asking questions in forums doesnt work to well.

goto www.guildwars.com then into support. click "ask a question"

send it through, generally 12 hours later youll have a reply. see what they say.

just ask them if they are/are not. havent decided. are working on it etc.

I never even try to ask questions directly to gaile on a forum. imagine all the PM's she would get, all the forums shed read, all the questions she would see.

oh, and answering in a forum only opens her to flaming from those who dont agree with your view. again, use the proper channels. forums to give ideas, support for well, support (which is what you basically want)

Best solution yet, remove attribute refund points, make guild wars like every other game on the market, and no one has to read thousands of threads that list and label complaints about an undeveloped feature, that was not designed for the complaintees intended use in the first place.

yea, Sounds great to me !

Why not just do away with refund points for PvP characters?

Mmmmm...paying cash to change my talent points around...what a great memory.

on PVP only characters? just delete them and make a new one. thats the intention.
if your also using them as mules, thats your problem

I was under the impression the OP was talking about PvE character playing in PvP.

If you do pvp, and you don't have a slot open for a pvp char at all time, you're playing this game wrong.

Not only does pvp demand that you change your attribute combination constantly, it demands you change your CLASS combination with great regularity. You have to be able to get together with people, discuss a new tactic, and then create a character to suit that tactic, NOT build the tactics around the characters.

Three rp char slots is exactly enough to cover every class, and the manual explained pvp chars in suitable detail, so you have no excuse for not planning ahead.

^lol tell it like it is

Bah, the update made things worse. Remember how I said that you can't grind on the farms for XP with your PvP exclusive character? Now they made it so you can't get XP in PvP action using your original character. At least I could get 15 wins or so to change my build if I didn't want to farm. Now I am FORCED to farm in PvE to experiment in PvP with my desired character. Absolutely ridiculous. Why not just disallow PvE characters to PvP at all?

Arrendondo, if you have all four slots filled up with PvE characters, you should not be calling yourself a PvP'er. You are a shame to the PvP community. If what you want is flexibility, then what you need to do is to delete one of the PvE characters to make place for a PvP character. Not only will that allow for "infinite" refund points, it will also allow you to make any class changes you want. And as a PvP'er, that is what you want -- flexibility. As it stands you have four characters, four different class combinations, out of the 30 available combinations. A little over an eighth of the roles you could play if only you would delete one of your PvE's.

Stop acting all high and mighty. You do not deserve infinite refund points because your lack of foresight caused you to seal up your PvP flexibility.



Edit: I have had to delete characters in similar positions, too. Two of them were approaching level 20, including the first character I'd ever played. It's painful, I know, but it's worth it in the long run. It's helped me alot, I know.

Best solution if you don't play PvE anymore and your exclusive PvP delete a PvE character, nuff siad.

Ah PvPers, you gotta love em, if they don't get everythign handed to them on a silver platter they are not happy. Ever heard of the world competition.

You know all thei moaning about this that and the other and you could have had 4 refund points already. Stop moaning and play the game, if you want to ahve an advantage that will be it, you can be getting refund points while everyone else is moaning.

You got to love people first they want a way to unlock everything and when they get it they moan because it's not enough.

Hey us ole PvEer get virtually nothing from this, so stop your moaning or I can go on about what I want and what other PvEers want. Or maybe this just shows that PvEer actually like the challenge and competition brought about by PvE. You now the whole point of competion is your skill, not what you have, because if that was not the case everyone with Nike trainers would be in the olympics.

So stop moaning and get competative, if you have completed everything then you will know the best places to get quick XP, so use them, use your skill and knowledge in competion to be better than the others. Don't bitch and moan to us if you don't want to spend time perfectiong your skill and abilites. Because racing drivers don't become No.1 over night they ahve to work for it.

Suggestion sent... thx.

Hey ahve you heard of the words 'Guild co-oporations' if not it's a great way to get XP and money and you also helping out guild mates. You know take your uber lvl20 character back to ascalon and help a new guild member through the missions and quests. Now thats not grind that helping the guild. At the end of the day I get all the refund points I need for my Lvl 20 by helping out guild mates on the hard missions and quests. I don't find it a grind I find it fun and it imporve the whole guild dynamic.

You have to think one step ahead of him, Gabby. Now he's going to complain about how he shouldn't have to be forced to help people with things they don't need help in, and about how his guild is fully developed anyway and doesn't have many new members.

Gotta stay one step ahead, there, man.

^ someone just like to flame total nonsense for the sake of flaming

(much like me, but I generaly try and put a point in there somewhere)