The Update: Why We See More Complaints Than Praise

Fair enough. At least then it'd be evenly screwed up on both sides.

For the love of God...can we PLEASE stop talking as if the "sides" are uneven?!

What sides?! It's GuildWars, PvP and PvE affect one another.

There are hardly ANY PURE PvP players out there.

And I know 2, that's right 2 people who only like PvE.

Most everyone who continues to play this game likes BOTH of them, they like GUILD WARS. They don't like half of it, they like the game.

If you're asking the devs to "pick sides", well that's, and I'll say it, just plain idiotic.

They won't do that, they're not building "PvP" for the PvP players, and they're not building "PvE" for the PvE players, they're building the game for those that like to play it. Plain and simple.

Honestly, how many games do you go around complaining about HALF of it?! You either like the GAME or you don't. It's not "well I like this half" or "well I don't like that half", it's either the right game for you or it isn't.

So long as you keep talking about PvP and PvE like they're two different sides not meant to both be played, then you're talking without reason or purpose, because that won't lead anywhere.

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people seem to want this game to play like a random Multiplayer FPS, where you just pick your name and weapon loadout and go.

but it doesn't play that way, because it has RPG elements in it. and the the fact that this is not a typical Multiplayer Shooter just doesn't register with some folks.

and every other Online Adventure Game/RPG.

you don't have to speak on it again, fine with me. You want the game to be a multiplayer shooter, and it isn't.

You can't pretend a problem exists because it does. If not then there wouldn't be these drastic updates all the time to patch it up. Your two "pure" PvE friends... guess what? The choice is theirs! They DON'T have to endure any PvP. And, for those of us who loved PvE but finished it, what insane reason could there be to force us to continue to endure those play mechanics when we are focused on PvP?

Think of it this way, It is not about one or the other. I can enjoy both equally. But when I am in PvE mode, there is NO interference from PvP play mechanics. When I am in PvP mode, I am constantly harassed by PvE play mechanics.

Not just shooters. Every single competitive activity known to mankind. It ISN'T labeled RPG. It is labeled COMPETITIVE online RPG. The RPG part is fine... they can ignore PvP. The first word, COMPETITVE, is what gets update every week because it is NOT fine. Unlike all other competitive activities, we are forced into PvE play mechanics just to access gear from the beginning.

Except for the fact that some of the greatest rewards in PvE are the underworld and fissure, and you have to have the favor of the god's to have access to those.

So you either have to depend on PvP players to go win it, or you have to do it yourself.

Sure you can "ignore" the fissure and the UW, but you'll be missing out on some of the greatest parts of PvE, thus forcing you to be concerned with PvP whether you like it or not.

And you know, just the same you can ignore PvE as a whole, you'll just have to stick with what you have otherwise.

If you've ever not had favor and wanted into those two places at the temple of ages, you'd see just how much PvE players depend on PvP players.

The two are one, they're intertwined, they're Guild Wars. PvE players depend on PvP for the only high-end PvE they have available to them, and PvP players depend on a day of PvE to get their skills, plain and simple.

spoken like a FPS veteran.

far-reaching examples to prove your point, but have no bearing on this game, or any other online RPG.

simple solution.

remove loot. one set of armor, one weapon for each primary profession.

remove most skills except for a handful of the most useful skills/spells per Profession.. then you don't have to "earn" them, or "work" for them.

remove attribute points and "builds" from the PvP portion of the game.

and do not allow PvE characters to enter any PvP. period. if you want to PvP, you make one of these "even-level" PvP-only characters.

You want everyone to start out at the same level in PvP, and not have to earn anything? that's how you do it.

you shouldn't have free access to anything that we have to work to earn. PERIOD. if you get them for free, then why should I work for them? you still have not and will not answer that question. you keep ducking behind the word "Competitive" instead of giving a straight answer to that question.

that means extra armors, extra weapons, extra skills, should all be off-limits to PvPers.

now you don't have to earn anything, you have your useful skills handed to you, and everyone uses the same skills, spells, and equipment. everyone is even, and you can now outwit and outthink your opponents, knowing that everything is perfectly fair and even. and you didn't have to do any PVE work to get there.

The desire of putting in hundreds of hours into a PvP expeirence free from PvE mechanics is being compared to waiting for favor.

Lol, if you are going to hold up ToA adventures as the proof the two are equally intertwined, then the argument for status quo is weaker than I thought. Too funny to even comment on.

Well, it's obvious you've never gone through PvE.

Maybe if you spent as much time in game as you did in this thread you'd have all the priest positions open to you by now, and this wouldn't be a problem.

Me?

Already done it.

And why won't you comment on it? Because it's too funny?

Sorry buddy, you'll need to do better than that if you want anyone to look at you seriously.

OK, proof positive you have no idea what we are talking about. Good luck to you in the future my friend. I wish you well.

PvE players can go through the game and ignore PvP play mechanics. It should be the other way as well. And I have completed PvE, loved every minute of it. I didn't even begin playing my 4th PvP match until I completed all the missions, quests, bonuses got all my skills AND elites. This is bigger than just wanting something for myself.

Can I go into pure PvP without PvE play mechanics now that I put my 150 hours of pure PvE in? Lol, that's what this is allll about.

You seem to be running short on backup for your argument Arredondo, anyone can click the quote button and not comment.

You know I'm going to be honest with you, you haven't held a single point through this entire thread for more than a page. First you wanted smaller faction points, than you wanted a UAX button for all PvP players because it would make it more about "skill", of course when you realized people played boht that kinda throws that idea out into the dumpster 'eh? And now we've got the idea that PvP people don't need any of that, PvE players just have to play more PvP, right?

Make up your mind. It doesn't sound to me like you like very much at all about the game. Maybe fine another?

*edit for his second response*

So it's about fairness now...is it? It's not fair that PvE players can't unlock the fissure armor unless PvP players pull through? It's not fair that they can't get enough skill points to unlock all of their skills in days unless they go through the UW/Fissure quests?

Now that I know that you've played through PvE...I'm wondering one thing.

Why are you complaining? You're saying that PvE players should go through hundreds of hours of PvP, when PvP players don't have to go through that much of PvE? And...why does it even matter?

You see, a roleplaying character has access to both PvE and PvP. I personally would have to say that a "PvP" character, which only has access to half the game, should only get half the benefit from it.

Then again I'm odd that way.

I've explained his non-point a dozen times in this thread from others who tried it and failed. I won't do it again... I'll refer him to page one and he can learn from that point if he reads forward. When he knows what's been said, he can come back with a new angle and we'll talk.

EDIT... what I want is UAX for PvP. What I'll settle for is faction costs 1/10th of what they are now. I asked about putting PvP mechanics in PvE to show you how ridiculous it is to shoehorn the methods of one into the other (when one person wanted that, I even said BOTH sides would be equally screwed up).

Your point was made, but it fails. The theme of this thread is consistent and sound.

Sure, take away the PvP connection to Underworld/FoW... now what?

Why does it matter? Because playing PvE hor over a hundred hours I had zero complaints as it was all brought together really well. Now that I'm trying to play PvP for a hundred hours, I am forced into PvE play mechanics that don't exist in any other purely skillful competive activity. Some don't mind it, but few of them take competition as seriously as some of us.

I've played in many sports, hobby games, video games, etc. competitively. I've been in all kinds of tournies (local, regional, national even) and understand competition. This system of forcing 'unlocking' features to get the gear you need goes against the grain of skillful play, and it is slowing down the improvement progress (whether slightly or greatly) of many people who want to play PvP seriously. You asked, there it is.

I don't quite think I NEED a new angle, that's the problem. You need a better answer to my "angle."

You "referred me to page one", I read. and from what I see, a lot of folks in the thread simply disagree with you. even PvPers in some cases. and many take the same simplistic position that I do. It's not really complicated.

and you still haven't answered my question sufficiently. I've seen the whole "Competition" schtick several times in this thread, and it doesn't answer the question, no matter how many times you put it out there.

Why should you be given FREE or EASY access to things that I have to work and grind to earn? or, alternately stated, if you DO get Free OR Easy Access to Skills that I have to work and grind for, then what purpose is there for me to work and grind? Is it suitable for me to get free Faction points and PvP Rewards without engaging in PvP and earning them?

When you give a feasible answer for those questions, I'll shut up.

but for now, I'm going to..you know...play Guild Wars.

later.

Haha, this is about fun for me now than any point, to be honest with you. I know I won't be here to see a UAX button, so I'm not concerned about that ever happening. That would seperate PvP and PvE and the devs won't do that. So I don't really see where I'm at fault here.

Anyways...

Lets analyze this, for your sake.

PvP ONLY players, have to...

Go through PvE once, they can do this in less than a day. The rest is pure PvP for them, with ONE PvP character, they can unlock all the skills/weapon upgrades/runes in the entire game, all with one PvP character, and a one-time run through PvE.

PvE only characters have to...


PvE once to get all the skills for their two professions, if they don't have enough skill points they have to gain each skill point by experience, again, and again, and again, and again, doing the same thing over and over again. The easiest way to do this is through the quests in the UW/Fissure. Which depends on PvP. Once they manage to do that with one character, they then have to either switch secondary professions, and get...about...20-30 more skill points, on that one character. You know, the one where they can't get any XP other than fighting monsters that takes longer than getting faction in PvP, and if they want to do it fast on that same character they have to go to the fissure/UW, which still...depends on PvP. All just to unlock some skills through PvE only.

If a PvE character doesn't want to have to go through that trouble of changing a secondary profession, they'd then have to create a new character, go through the exact same missions, go to the exact same skill trainers in the cities, kill the exact same monsters with the same skills that they've always had, just to unlock all the skills on another character.

Then they have to create another character to do it again.

And another.

And what? There aren't enough character slots to get all the skills for the professions JUST by doing PvE unless you A: Change your secondary and become dependant on the Fissure/UW for skill point XP, or B: Delete on of your valued characters?

And what else?

What?! You say we have to get LUCKY to find our weapon upgrades?

And the few upgrades that we find aren't even as good as the minimum weapon upgrades for PvP characters?!

And what?! We need MONEY to buy it from people? And we have to sell things or farm mobs all day just to get enough money to MAYBE buy one?! And the rune trader only gives us 31g for a superior death magic?!

And what's that? You mean there is an easier way for a pure PvE character to make money? What's that?

The UW/Fissure? Of course!

Wait...

That's dependant on PvP...

I guess it's back to the farming jade scarabs outside amnoon all day, just so I can maybe have enough money to maybe buy a weapon that's half as good as what you can unlock with faction points through PvP.

"Boy, I sure wish we could unlock all that stuff in PvE with one character, like a PvP character can!" -Innocent PvE only child

*sigh* I know what you mean innocent PvE only child, it really is a shame that PvE characters have to spend multiple character slots, go through the same missions over and over again, and be dependant on UW/Fissure just to do this at a decent rate when we've beaten the game...wait, that's dependant on PvP...nvm...

"Also, I really wish each one of our battles was different and exciting like every battle in PvP!" -Innocent PvE only child

*sigh* I know what you mean innocent PvE only chlid.

"So what are we going to do?"

I know!

"What is it PieXags?!"

We'll play both! And play the game the way it was meant to be played! It's obvious now just how much CRAP PvE characters have to go through, with multiple characters, dependance on PvP, and repetitive missions/mobs, just to unlock what a PvP only character can with one character, in different fights and everything!

We'll play both! Oh my lord that's a brilliant idea.

We'll play both, we'll play Guild Wars.

===========================

I hope that explains to you that PvE characters don't need to get "screwed" anymore when it comes to unlocking, both sides have it rough. I'd say PvE has it worse when it comes to unlocking though.

Cheers.

*Edit*

I forgot to add that well, to put it simply. PvP players want to unlock everything, all the skills, all the gear, all the runes, everything. They can do all of this with one PvP character doing competitive and fun battles in PvP, each one a little different and each one a test of your skill. They have to go through PvE once, and with that one PvP character and that one PvP character they can unlock every single item in the game. Also PvP characters have the luxury of being able to fiddle around with builds, they get to switch their attributes whenever they want, and if they want a new class combination, all they have to do is delete that character or start another one, deleting it doesn't matter to a pure PvP character because they can make it again in less than 2 minutes.

For a PvE character to unlock all the skills, the best runes, get the best upgrades for weapons, etc. They have to spend just as much time if not more, they CAN'T switch around attributes and try different builds near as easily because you have attribute refund points that require you to go get XP if you want them back, you have to unlock the 30 extra attributes at the end via quests, for each character you have, you have to get money in order to buy anything decent. And money is much harder to come by than faction. To get things in PvE people can overcharge like HELL. Everything you get for a PvP character has a set limit on it, you don't have to worry about inflation with a PvP character. To get decent money/XP you have to depend on the UW/Fissure, which is...dependant on PvP. And also, lets not forget. Doing all this in PvE is all the same, all the time. No competition, it's easy as hell in every area but the fissure/UW, which is dependant on PvP. It requires little or no skill to get through most missions/quests. The monsters you fight are stupid, always the same, they all have the same skills, and once you beat it, there are no surprises. It's the same, every time, over and over again. All this just to get what a PvP character can get with one character, without having to worry about inflation of prices or money, they don't have to worry about faction either because it's GUARANTEED that they'll get some faction for fighting no matter what, and that faction adds up quick, win or lose. With PvE characters, it's nowhere near as easy to get money.

And with that, I'd just like to say that...

The reason PvE characters don't have to do a little more PvP is because, well, in order to do what a PvP character can, they wouldn't have time to do it anyways. Because they're too busy depending on PvP for the UW/Fissure and dealing with the same missions and mobs over and over again just to get what they MIGHT be able to get.

And...with that I go get some food.

And you're wondering why we're not taking you seriously? You're talking about PvP being "infected" with too much PvE play mechanics. After you say something like that, I personally find it incredibly hard to believe you actually and honestly value anything in PvE, especially if that's how you're talking about PvE elements.

And those "PvE play mechanics" are...? Are you being "forced" to slog through PvE campaign mode, or are you participating in the PvP arenas, in order to unlock items for PvP?

No offense, but this portion of your replies reminds me of children on the playground sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalalalalala."

Using your personal life as if it's some type of bartering currency will not help you prove your point.

Let's flip this around, since the point is going right over your head, it seems.

Let's say you win in a PvP match. How can you be so sure that you won because of what items you had, what items the other team didn't have, etc? How do you know what the other team had, apart from just seeing what kind of armor and weapons they were using? Keep in mind that you cannot accurately assess item stats based on appearance.

So how do you know what's really going on in the match? How do you know what really went on in the match? Unless you took a survey of each team's equipment, logged what weapons, what mods, what upgrades, what runes, what types of armor, what types of protection, etc., before the match, then had a multi-hour discussion session with the other team afterwards to talk about what each of you did, how you did it, when you switched items, etc...you have no way of knowing at all whether items had anything to do with it.

So for all you know, you just sucked in that match and your armor and l337 weapons and runes saved your ass and the opposing team's items and equipment weren't l337 enough to stand up against your onslaught.

But on the other hand, maybe it wasn't armor, the weapons, the runes, etc., and maybe your win was actually based on how well you strategized and organized your strikes.

And if you lost the match, do you blame the loss on items, or skill? Keep in mind that you have no way of knowing just what the other team was using, apart from the spell monitors. Seems to me that if you really can't know for sure that it was in fact items that decided the match and not actual player skill...you really shouldn't be making blanket statements like "PvP sucks unless everyone is given everything!"

Without knowing for sure, you're just conjecturing and wasting our time...you're just dealing in "What ifs" instead of "What is."

*sigh*

Good stuff.

And this is where I draw the line for me in this thread, after that post of mine and seeing Siren here I'm sure I'm not necessary in this "argument" anymore.

Reading over my post, I don't really see how you can come up with any counter-points, fact of it is, for a PvE character to unlock all the skills, runes, weapon upgrades, and what not. It's actually more difficult to do in just in PvE than in PvP.

So to say that it favors PvE is just a lie. Plain and simple. Care to argue any of the things I said in my post? You've played through PvE arredondo, you know what I'm talking about up there. Ask any PvE player how difficult it is to try and find that perfect weapon, just try and unlock all the skills never entering a PvP arena. It's a lot more difficult purely doing PvE, and...a lot more repetitive, less skill-based, and that just plain blows. PvE is fun, but the best way to play is to play it all. Plain and simple.

PvE people don't have near the luxuries PvP only characters do when it comes to attribute switching, build testing, and general competition in the game. So if you want to talk about how PvE characters have it so easy, go unlock everything you can with one character using faction just by doing PvE.

Then come back and complain.