Fair PvP

Dear Arena Net:

I propose that some form of entirely fair PvP be added. By "fair", I mean that there is no possible in-game advantage to a player who has been playing longer. A player who has just purchased GuildWars should be on equal footing in this form of PvP to anyone else.

I don't even care much what form this is. I'm not asking for access to everything; that's not remotely required to make a fair venue. Maybe you go to an arena, enter the mission, and get a random premade template character. Maybe it's a form of "limited" where players draft skills beforehand. But fair PvP doesn't exist in Guild Wars, yet, and it should.

(I'd made a more concrete suggestion elsewhere, but I'm really more interested in the concept in general. This is my concrete suggestion: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27486).

I encourage anyone else who would like to see some kind of fair PvP to speak up, and concrete ideas on how to do it are welcome. Let Arena pick from them and make something good. =)

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Added by edit:

The goal of this thread is come up with fair ways to play PvP without unlocking everything. I am not in favor of unlocking everything in PvP. Please understand that I am not asking for that.

I agree. How about this: When you make a PvP character, it has no relationship to your RP character, and you can pick freely what skills and runes to outfit it with.

I think you just need to practice more...

When I was in the PvP random arena I end up with a all Elementar team as the opposite was a monk, a ranger and 2 mesmer.

I dont think I need to say how it gone ...

You are proposing a system were such thing will happen but also that I end with a character that I know nothing about unless I played for a long time and know how most skills work and that ends up rewarding how much time you spend in the game.

This is a bad idea for the basic reason that only experienced players will have the advantage and there goes "fair" ...

A few things:

There's no way to not make experienced players have the advantage. It's good for experienced players to have the advantage that comes from, well, experience. Otherwise the game is all luck or grind.

Secondly, I'm asking for proposals for making the game fair. I suggested a few methods. The goal is to have at least one place where entirely fair PvP can be played, at least according to in-game considerations.

Sadly, few people seem to care at all about fairness, so I guess ArenaNet should keep rewarding grinders and not bother making a venue where fair play exists.

=<

Why? Because I want the game to be fair according to in-game considerations? If I needed to practice more, this would be stupid. According to my own complaint, if I want to win, I should instead grind for a while so I have better armor, in-game skills, and runes than other players, and multiple sets of armor for switching in the middle of the fight, etc. Then I wouldn't need to practice more.

A lot of players have asked for things like unlocking all possible items in PvP. This is an alternative to that which would still provide 100% fair, competitive gameplay. I'm sure players would still complain, but it seems like the thing that serious PvP players complain about the most is that you need to grind in order to be on a level playing field. Well, let's create a level playing field, even if it's not "unlock everything right away". The current system can exist alongside it.

Sorry but I think its unfair how you find players... mostly warriors using max damage weapons or weapons for the underworld or wearing max AL Armor they got by having a mate run them to Drokan's.

PvP matches should have weapon limits... and also armor should have LVL requires to them... to stop anyone from just doing a cheeky run to get better armor.

I'd be happy just having all the base non-elite skills available when creating a PvP character, without having to unlock them in PvE or though competitive PvP play. And to allow that character access to the common upgrades for weapons and armor. Then let the Elite skills, Superior runes and Max upgrades be unlocked through the current reward based system.

Either that, or create a pre-designed template for every profession style in the game, ie. a character that focuses on each of the attributes. Basically, a character build for each of that profession's primary attributes. It's really difficult to try out some of the more obscure designs, like a Water Magic Ele, Smiting Monk, Inpsiration Mesmer, Death Necro, Beast Master Ranger, etc.

Ever won with pre-made templats in gvg battles? Our guild did... we had to, since most of us hadnt gotten very far into the game... I do wish that one of the monk pre-made's had spell breaker... since it's a Very needed skill, and that would certainly help things... Because runes and item upgrades aren't really all that needed... It's more of the teamwork that wins... untill you get up to about rank 500 or so, then you might need a few more skills that are highly used in pvp... but who wants to be number 1 in a game they just started in eh?

Besides... i think the way the game is set up, they try to get you to like pvp throughout the pve... so, soon the pve players will probably enjoy some pvp, and perhaps find it even easier then some of the pve missions...

Ya, i suggested that before (without weapon limits, since weapons already have required attribute lvls for the higher damage)... it would completely ruin any reason for rushing to the forge (for the ganking type), for those low lvl arena's... But, as for those that go there with guildies just to try and get some skills they need for pvp (i find no problem in that)...

You have to realize that they did their best to balance what RPG players want and what Action gamers want. RPG players want to have REWARDS for all the time they play. They don't want to spend 100 hours questing and have nothing to show for it. Unlocking items and skills gives them a reward for playing.

If you did this you'd drive away the RP players, and a lot of the players who like the RP/Action balance.

What are you referring to when you say "this"? Not trying to be cheeky, but you are responding to many people and topics.

I don't think anyone on this thread was suggesting much taking away from RPG players. Some would be taken away if all non-elite skills were available in PvP, but that still leaves an awful lot, including all of PvE.

Sorry, I'm tired.

Removing the grind entirely, as the first poster suggested.

We're talking about lvl 20 pvp here, not ascalon arena. As for armor lvl requirements, they were taken out during the beta weekends because they were lame.

I agree with Jo on his points. I think leveling the playing field will improve the quality of play instead of just having noobs getting slaughtered by people with large portions of the content unlocked. At least give the poor saps a chance. You can't say "use premades" because I garuntee you that I could run a build that would probably never lose to them.

I made a somewhat similar suggestion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27584 , but I didn't get a lot of support.

Back on topic: I like your suggestion.

I believe this is a terrible idea, because then what happens to us that have spent many hours working on our character. It also gives us no goals to achieve.

I propose that everyone have the same build and choose out of THREE preset attack plans that the game automatically executes.

What is a terrible idea? What do you think is being taken away?

Personally, my suggestions are outright avoiding (1) taking away anything that exists now or (2) unlocking all skills and items.

What are you against?

Admittedly, that's a very popular game. But I don't think there's a lot of money to be made selling Rock Paper Scissors software.

Hehehehe I see no complaints about the game mechanics of Rock Paper Scissors

this sounds like another UAE thread

somebody said that on top of the top armor and weapons you get the templates 8 skills

is this correct on the skill part?

an idea if you would

add 3-4 skills to the mix from both the primary and secondaries of the template

the extra skills to either be random or random chosen from a select pool of skills chosen by vote by people who pvp

one vote before each match would help get a better available skill mix to have some swap ability with the template

does anybody think this would improve the templates a bit

or significantly?

Hey guys, I have an idea that solves the problem. You can have runes, skills, and upgrades be unlocked through PvE, like they are now, but also have a way that, if you PvP repeatedly, you get the option to unlock them without having to go through PvE. Oh wait, they just implemented that.

You still have to get an RP character to all the towns to find the priests of balthazar that unlock all the skills. Without the Amnoon and Droknar's skills, you'd come up kind of short. On that note, is it really too much to ask for someone to complete the game once to be competitive in PvP?

only becuase there aren't forums for it . I'm sure some people wouldn't like the luck element and the fact that there is no 'real' skill involved.

'rock sucks, paper for teh win'

'lolz, n00b, scissors look cool'

'whats the best technique for hiding your hand?'

'he scammed me, trying to sell me hammer saying it beats all three'

if anything, the PvE grind helps balance out those that have spent a lot of time playing PvE without much experience of PvP against those that have been playing lots of PvP without much PvE. It's just the 'hardcore' gamer mindset that they have to have everything to be competitive that unbalances things.

As someone else said, this clearly shows that you haven't actually tried doing this at all. I'm a PvE fiend, I have five relatively active characters (all played within the last week, anyway), and I'm very happy about the new PvP unlocking. But it's clearly a hack and still requires lots of PvE.

You can't get most elite skills using the PvP faction points unless you make it to Droknar's Forge. The Priests don't give up everything, and they only exist in PvE-only cities. This wasn't clear in the update, but I decided to check it out to see what was actually done. =)

I don't know why they didn't just put the Priests in the arenas, so that PvP-only players could actually buy from them. Instead, to get even basic skills, you still have to at least do all of the Pre-Academy stuff.

didn't someone suggest they have an arena called Fairland? where that's the only arena where you can a UAS character and no where else. You won't be ranked but hey it's a fair battle cause you have everything and all the skills. Just used one of the two arenas they closed up would be good enough. You can use this for testing builds and stuff. But i'm ok with them at least making you play the entire game once, wouldn't kill you guys would it? I plan on going through the pve two more times once i'm done with my first one, the other running parallel only with RL friends with teamspeak though so it's slower going, (one has kids and he pauses alot "oh wait my kid is crying! better tend to it or wife will be pissed", that's one bad hex spell) LOL.

What you consider to be "fair" PvP IMHO is stupid. How is it fair if someone who has learned the game mechanics, learned to play his/her build, and worked hard at unlocking skills and items for his/her use in PvP, has someone who just bought the game recieve all of the same items and skills? Let's say you have this "fair" PvP you want, new people will still be beat to the ground, why? Because they will not understand the game as well as those who have been playing for a long time. If we had this arena where you have all skills and all items...then WTH is the point of playing in other arenas. All PvE would be dead, except for those who enjoy PvE, and you would have a very, very unhappy player base, because they spent all this time unlocking things, and now suddenly someone can buy the game and have everything they have. So, no, this "fair" PvP would be the furthest away from fair you could get.

Also, keep in mind that this is an MMORPG, MMO's are skill based to an extent, GW more than most, but if you want to log in for the first time and have everything in the game be based on skill and not levels or items, then go and play an RTS, or FPS, just dont whine about the current PvP system being unfair.

They have to unlock the skills too if they want to go by anything other than the templates they give you, and most arn't that good.

Ok... moron...
The whole purpose of skill based games comes from very old games. Take D&D, the mother of all RPG's. Same idea, smaller extent. The idea, is that a player learns his own strategies, concocts his own schemes, and uses them together strategically. That makes a good player. If you think you should be able to have all the hoohah from the get-go, you don't belong here. MMORPG's are made the way they are for a reason. And I agree with Iteicea, if you want everything to be player skill based, go pick up a twitch game, and leave us to our evil skill improving ways. If that doesn't work, try playing the game, you may actually learn to play your build and not get killed.

I've taken out warriors using nothing but hexes and life siphons. It's all about the strategy you use, I don't always win either. You win some, you lose some.

Like I told the other person... strategy! You can have the best of everything and still die in a flash. Use your skills, some of them ignore defense, like hexes. I've taken out some warriors using only hexes and life taps and sometimes i've died. But I learn from that and try counter strategies. Also, what a joke! You don't bother switching armor during battle!

Clever of you to reply in general, vague terms to everyone, thereby insulting anyone with any interest in fair PvP.

That's not what I want. I've never suggested that. Thanks for your random arguments against things you think people have said. They are very constructive, and I'm sure Arena Net will implement your suggestions soon.

Uhh. Of course new people will lose. But at least they will know why they are losing. Right now, it could be because they don't have as much stuff, or because they are terrible. This is true for new players and old players alike.

Note that I'm not talking about an arena with all skills and items unlocked. Just any fair arena. For instance, an arena where players can only choose from the PvP template characters currently provided.

Isn't that a good thing? Why are people who don't enjoy PvE playing PvE? Wouldn't it be best if the only people playing PvE were the people who enjoyed it? What's the benefit of forcing people who don't enjoy it to play it?

I don't agree with the idea that everyone would be unhappy, because I think most people enjoy PvE. But the argument that it would be bad if the only people playing X are the people who enjoy playing X... well, of course. That's ideal, and exactly what Arena Net should be aiming for.

I'm the original poster of this thread. At no point have I suggested that "fair PvP" requires "fully unlocked PvP". I explicitly said that I'm looking for something besides "access to everything" in the very first post of this thread. The two ideas are mutually exclusive, and you appear to have randomly come in and attacked the name "fair PvP" when you think that it's the same thing as "fully unlocked PvP". At least figure out what you are targeting.

Bite me. I'm not whining. I don't want any existing PvP systems taken away, just new ones added that are fair.

The reason I created this thread is to ask for ideas for creating "fair PvP" which are anything besides fully unlocked PvP. Come back if you come up with anything constructive.

Anyone else who wants to rant and rave against "fully unlocked PvP", please find another thread to rave on. It's not like there's a shortage, and I'm happy to go argue with you on those threads. If you have a useful idea for making PvP players happier with a fair system, instead of just saying people are stupid, please speak up.

Sigh. Then I haven't been clear, obviously. I seek a fair PvP system which is something besides an Unlock Everything button. There is no reason at all for "Fair PvP" to require "Unlock Everything".

Anyone else have some constructive ideas?

There have been some useful ones here, but more ideas are always better.

to be honest the other people yelling *fair and level* have always defined it in the end as some version of unlock everything very fast if we cant get it now.

as a side note what about my idea to improve the templates as a step in the right direction?

I've butted heads with JoDiamonds before on this topic in another thread, so I'll just repost what I said there :P

I think every class primary should have 6-8 templates available for them. (ie, rather than a list of templates, you pick your primary and a sub menu of templates open up.) The templates should be checked regularly by ANet...if some of them prove to be really useless and unpopular, they should see what the community is doing and stick it in. Template characters should be completely fixed and aren't able to be modified. They should include skill, rune, armour and weapon set ups.

Template characters can be used in tombs/arena as normal. But add a special team arena (similar to droknars arena) only available for Template players. (maybe later when they have time, also add a Template only GvG option, for those "My guild vs. yours. Skillz only. Right now." sort of grudge matches :P).

Thus people who want a totally fair, skill-based match can go play a "fighting game" style arena where you pick a character from a list, and then play against other people who have picked from the same list. The planning and building revolves around what templates the members of your team pick. The individual component of build construction is taken out of the equation (play normal pvp for that).

This accomplishes the fairness whilst still leaving the normal game as a bigger, better, funner thing to do. By having the fair pvp portion be fairly limited, it keeps the normal game interesting in its own way, for both pvp and pve players.

And if you're not satisfied with that, then you really -are- just looking for UAS. :P

I know EXACTLY what I want, and no amount of "templates" will satisfy me. A huge part of GW is the planning process. Taking that out and forcing players to choose to wear someone else's dirty laundry (no matter how wonderful it may be for someone else to wear) is worse than the system we have now.

First it was forcing PvE (which STILL must be done BTW). Then it was forcing PvE-style unlocking. Now its suggested to force templates. Hey, I have an idea... just like PvE players aren't forced into a play mechanic they might not care for (competitive PvP), how about giving the same courtesy to PvP players for once?

Full UAX por favor. And get rid of Attribute Refund Points in town.

I think 'fair' would be pretty simple

In the lvl 10 arena - if your armour is better than the 150 gold armour - you get treated as having no armour

In the lvl 15 arena, the cut off is a bit higher

In the lvl 10 arena, if your weapon is higher than half the max possible damage for that weapon type, it is treated as minimum damage

In the lvl 15 arena, the weapons can be 75% of max.



Alternatively - anytime a team gets more than 5 consecutive wins, a GM is called to check out the toons. If there is evidence of 'forge runners' (IE max armour) then that account is deleted.


I am all for being harsh as can be - the leet 15k armoured max sword wielding panzies in the lvl 10 arena need to be forcibly edjucated that the point of the game is not to stroke your ego at the expense of the 'noobs'. Unfortunately the psyche of that type of player can not appreciate how pathetic they are for taking pride in their victories. It would be like an apache pilot painging a kill sign on the side of his chopper for wasting an old lady in a wheel chair (but sir - it was an armoured chair!). It demonstrates no skill or capability at all.

On the other hand, on the rare occasions when I managed it, taking out a team of poorly played droknor rushers with my trusty 150 gp armour and stuff certainly did feel good. Still, does winning a victory against someone who is obviosly so bad at the game that even with overwhelming advantages the still loose any more of an acomplishment? Its like claiming a victory because your opponent tripped over his shoelace and impaled themselves on their sword.


Sigh - when I think about it - the only 'fair' you will ever get in the game is in the HoH type arena, where the gear is equal and its the skill of the guilds that matter - the trash gets tossed aside, and the real battles commence.

Good thing I like PvE as well as PvP.

If they believe that it is fair PvP, then yes, it applies to them.

That was a suggestion how? Good reading...


Most players know why they are losing...that is either them not understanding or knowing the benefits of their build, or someone in their party being a moron.


PvE is part of the game, this game is no different from any other MMO in the aspect that you need to PvE to reach the end goal of better PvP.



which in turn would make PvP unfair...ok that makes perfect sense

/sarcasm off

I'm afraid i don't agree with this. There is a part of me that wants this to happen but then i remebered writing all the guides I have for this site so far, All the I can't beat my mirror posts and all the Rangers are underpowered posts.

To really get to know your character, I find thatit's good to work at it, meet the enmies in Pve, se how they use their skils too. If every skills was avalible to everyone at the start I'd be worried about a "noob influx."
There'd be so many players out there with all the skills but not knowing how to best utalise them. If you wern't already Rank 3 (I am by the way) I dread how hard it would be to find a group.

I have been playing since day one and I consider myself alot better off then a player who has been playing for 2 weeks. Not because I've unlocked everything (I'm probably only at about half skills, Not a single superiour rune, and my max hp buff on a wep is 21) but because I've fought and designed counter builds for almost type of character and stratagy out there.

Yes It has been hard work and has taken time but I belive the current balance that Area net is striving for is going so well. With each new update they get closer and closer to archiving the "perfect balance." The faction system is such a welcome adition, the traders of all types, the new collectors. I'm afraid that a change of this magnatude would throw off the curent balance.

Sorry to go againt the flow of the topic but this is my personal feeling on the matter and I would like to see it voiced.

I'm going to have to assume that Iteicea Destroidium is merely trolling, since he isn't responding constructively to anything and appears to be merely trying to piss me off. Piss me off once, shame on you. Piss me off twice... naw. I'll just write you off as a loss, instead.

What about more than twice, you didn't say anything about that.