The new Mesmer Skills

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

So, we all got a look at the new skills for Factions. Since this is a Mesmer only discussion, I'll drop it here rather than the Factions forum.

Here's a link to new skills' descriptions.

http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=184

So, what did we all think? Overall, I'd say Mesmer came out in this one second best. Warriors and especially Necromancers got an almighty hand up, but there are quite a few good Mesmer skills, but a lot of bad ones. Keep in mind I'm doing this from a purely PvP perspective.


Domination Magic


Arcane Larceny- I love it. A duplicate of Arcane Thievery rocks, enabling us to steal two skills for less than what it would have cost to get Arcane Echo. Now, we could do a Thievery, Larceny, Arcane Echo, Echo, and Signet of Humilty combo, though at that point disabling the same skill twice becomes much higher, so I'd just use Thievery and Larceny in a regular shutdown build. This skill rocks, just like its predecessor.

Complicate- Not bad, not bad at all. It interrupts skills, not just spells, and the anti-signet effect also adds a lot to it. With only a 20 second recharge, generally same as most of the others Mesmer interrupts, this is definately a good skill on an interrupt Mesmer's skillbar.

Overload- An excellent skill is all I can say. Spammable, and deals 50+ damage. Easily an Elementalist's bane.

Psychic Distraction {E}- An incredibly good skill. You may not be able to spam it much, but the 2 second recharge and the fact that it disables a skill makes it pristine Elite.

Psychic Instability {E}- Now this is a funny skill. At first, my thought was, "Wow. This is the WORST skill I have ever seen." But then, you realise that with a Ranger primary or secondary (primary would be better, for Expertise), you can go Serpent's Quickness, then spam Savage Shot and Distracting Shot, keeping them down indefinately. I'll need to try this strategy out, but it's not as bad as I first thought. Still, it's a pretty bad Elite.

Signet of Disruption- Eh. Not a bad skill, since they're going to be hexed with the likes of Migraine or Arcane Conundrum. The 30 second recharge is bad though, and I'd choose another skill over it anyday, despite the fact it has no energy cost.

Unnatural Signet- I personally love this skill. Use it to knock out any KEY spirit. Key is the...key word here (), since you can't really afford to spend the entire match destroying Pain or something. It also works as a finishing move, though I wouldn't use it much since it has a long recharge.


Fast Casting


Arcane Languor {E}- I've talked about this skill before, so I'll just copy and paste. The first time I saw it, I thought, wow, a nice skill. Good for shutting down Monks and the like. But then you realise that Monks are always on low energy anyway, so it doesn't really hurt them that much (except for specific types of Monks). And even if they do stop casting, it's only for 5 seconds, and there are much better ways of shutting down a Monk for 5 seconds (ie, Backfire or Diversion and the likes). Against Necros it would hurt, but then again, as a Mesmer I always go for the Monk, so a generally moot point for me.

Power Return- Now here's a strange skill. The seven second recharge makes it cool, but then you're giving them 5 energy everytime you interrupt him, and that's at full Fast Casting, which you don't need if you're playing an interrupt Mesmer. Not a very good skill, in my opinion, but you may be able to make it work.

Stolen Speed {E}- An interesting spell. With a 6 second recharge, it's almost spammable, and you can use it with interrupts to interrupt multiple targets. Not bad, but it'll take skill to use.


Illusion Magic


Accumulated Pain- With this you won't need Phantom Pain anymore. A good skill, since they're probably going to have two or more hexes on them anyway. However, with the 20 second recharge, it won't really be that wieldy to use, but I'd still choose this skill over Phantom Pain as it gives me a slot free (since I won't really need Shatter Delusions).

Ancestor's Visage- We didn't really need a duplicate for Sympathetic Visage, though you could keep it on someone permanently. Still, no real use.

Conjure Nightmare- This skill really turns me off. 25 to cast, for only 8 degen, whereas I could simply use Conjure Phantasm and Images of Remorse to get 10 degen for only 15 energy. Still, it's spammable, and you'll need Glyph of Leser Energy or something, but I personally don't like this skill.

Illusion of Pain- Now here's an interesting skill. Definately a finishing move, as the degen is needed to kill them fast, before ten seconds. However, overall, this skill does not look effective at all, since degen caps at 10 and with a DOT spell doing 200 damage over ten seconds, it's too easily removed (giving them 200 free health), or healed through. However, it's been confirmed that with Mantra of Persistence, the length lasts longer but their healing isn't affected, so you could get a net loss on the enemy's health. So it has it's uses, and could be a good way to give the enemy -10 degen for a time.

Images of Remorse- Amazing, amazing skill. So many ways to use it. At 16 Illusion, it deals somewhere around 55 damage and gives 5 degen. With only a 5 second recharge, it's spammable, though the 2 second casting times is a bit annoying (but you're a Mesmer! What are you doing without around 10 Fast Casting!). It fits in well with an Ineptitude build, dealing 147, then 97, then 55, and then you can give them Conjure Phantasm to add to their troubles, for 299 damage and 10 degen. Ouch.

Kitah's Burden- Same as Ethereal Burden. We didn't really need a replicate.

Recurring Insecurity {E}- Awesome name, bad skill. For an Elite, which only does 3 degen? I mean, sure, it can be done over and over again with Wastrel's Worry or Conjure Phantasm, but then you're wasting an Elite! It's not a bad skill, just that there are FAR better ways to spend your Elite slot.

Shared Burden {E}- Not a bad skill. In the area, so a large radius. Can be made awesome in HoH, where everyone is generally bunched together (and hit them with an AoE Elementalist skill like Meteor Shower). Definately has potentional.


Inspiration Magic


Auspicious Incantation- Um...this is a strange skill, indeed. Very large recharge, and disables TWO of your skills (itself included). Generally, I can't see a single use for this skill, so I'd give it a big thumbs down.

Ether Signet- 90 second recharge is all I have to say. 18 energy gain is pretty good, so I'd definately give it a whirl with the likes of Mantra of Signets or Keystone Signet. It'll have place in a general signet build, but I'd give it a miss.

Feedback- Wow. This is an excellent skill. 30 second recharge is long, but I can definately see it in a Surge or E-Denial build. However, there are better ways of draining your opponent's energy, but I'm sure going to test it out in a Surge build soon, when Factions arrive.

Hex Eater Signet- Eh, a nice support skill. However, it'll require coordination for you to get more than 2 people (yourself included) in a tight group. The energy gain is very nice, but then again, it has a 45 second recharge. I suppose it might work with Keystone or Mantra of Inscriptions/Signets, but overall I'd say a decent skill, but meh.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- An excellent skill. It definately is worth it, especially if you're a Monk, since you'll get targetted alot by Mesmers and spikers. With a recharge of only 15 seconds, this is definately one of the better Factions skills.

Power Leech {E}- A lot of potential, especially on a Monk and the likes. Might work with a Mind Wrack build, but keeping a Monk shutdown for 10 seconds is pretty cool. However, since they're on 5 energy most of the time, it might not really work well. A better target would be a Mesmer, since they're frequently casting a lot of spells, and Elementalists as well. Has its uses, I suppose, but for an Elite it's lacking slightly.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Nothing really to say here. Just duplicates of Inspired Hex and Enchantment.


No Attribute


Expel Hexes {E}- One of the best Factions skills out. This is Remove Hex, on crack. With a 1 second cast time, you won't get interrupted, and with an 8 second recharge, it's easily manageable, and with 5 energy cost, it's simply godly.

Lyssa's Balance- This skill is so god damned bad I can't believe it's here. Let's see...Drain Enchantment is free at 0 Inspiration, so it's better energy wise, has a faster casting time, and recharges faster! Oh, and you can use a focus with it! I shudder at this skill.

Shatter Storm {E}- I don't like this skill. I don't like it at all. If they have one enchantment, sure it's great, but with usually >20 second recharge, it's not spammable at all. There are far better ways of removing your opponents' enchantments, like the new (and positively RIGGED) Necromancer skill, Gaze of Contempt. This is also an Elite skill, which makes it worse. There are far better ways of spending your Elite.

Signet of Disenchantment- 15 recharge, so not bad but hardly spammable. It may seem good for Warriors, but then you realise that Drain Enchantment is free at 0 Inspiriation, and is faster to activate. Also, Warrior Mesmers have access to Blackout, so why the hell do you want your Energy pool to be depleted and crawling back towards 10 at two arrows? A bad, bad skill.


So there's my summary. All in all, a bad group of skills, with some blatantly needing a boost. What are your opinions?

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
Also, Warrior Mesmers have access to Blackout, so why the hell... You don't really want Blackout on a Warrior. At all.

Erm...about the skills...they're really...mediocre...

Here's my take on them.

Arcane Larceny- I never liked Arcane Thievery, except when I'm thieving Gale from a W/E. So, you could say, I'm more neutral on this.

Complicate- Not bad, especially against those Wars with Healing Signet.

Overload- Very good. I would lower the recharge to 4 though.

Psychic Distraction {E}- Incredibly well-made, but I have a feeling you'd have to build your whole build around it...wait, you have to anyways...

Psychic Instability {E}- I'm going to glomp Psychic Distraction for the moment. This...well...

Signet of Disruption- I don't like it simply because of its recharge.

Unnatural Signet- I don't like it, since you have to use, like, six US-es to kill a single spirit.


Fast Casting


Arcane Languor {E}- The short duration makes it throw it away. But that's because I'm not bothered to time and such. A good skill, if you time it correctly with your team. o_O

Power Return- No...no.

Stolen Speed {E}- I'll have to see how it's used, yet.


Illusion Magic


Accumulated Pain- It looks pretty good.

Ancestor's Visage - It might be used, since SV doesn't exactly benefit from the long recharge.

Conjure Nightmare- Barf barf barf.

Illusion of Pain- Interesting. I'd see more play with this.

Images of Remorse- Just quite amazing.

Kitah's Burden- No one uses Ethereal Burden for a reason...?

Recurring Insecurity {E}- Good skill? Yes. Good Elite? No.

Shared Burden {E}- Maybe has a use in HA, I wouldn't know and it's not my job to know...is it?


Inspiration Magic


Auspicious Incantation- Strangely bad.

Ether Signet- At first I looked, I thought wow, not bad. But then, my eye floated to the 90-recharge.

Feedback- No-crap you will see it in EDenial.

Hex Eater Signet- You'd have to get your group to huddle together. Not a bad skill, though.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- Love the name, love the ability. Could have been longer with a higher ECost, though.

Power Leech {E}- Not bad. Definitely see some play.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Inspired Enchant already has no play...


No Attribute


Expel Hexes {E}- OMFG HAXXORZ! This is just so good...

Lyssa's Balance- One of the worst skills I've seen so far.

Shatter Storm {E}- I don't get the elite-ness.

Signet of Disenchantment- BS.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
You don't really want Blackout on a Warrior. At all.
Oh really? And why's that? A Warrior with Blackout can assist majorly in destroying a Monk.

Valkyries

Valkyries

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

AoM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
Oh really? And why's that? A Warrior with Blackout can assist majorly in destroying a Monk. Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Damn, beat me to it

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Power Return- Now here's a strange skill. The seven second recharge makes it cool, but then you're giving them 5 energy everytime you interrupt him, and that's at full Fast Casting, which you don't need if you're playing an interrupt Mesmer. Not a very good skill, in my opinion, but you may be able to make it work. I <3

This, coupled with migrane builds, is the single most devastating thing you could use. You're not draining energy anyway... so being able constantly interrupt is vicious.

My other favorites are Arcane Langour (Die you damn RoF spamming monk!), expel hexes, overload, illusions of remorse (pve), Stolen Speed (15 seconds long at 10FC, 6 second recharge... multitarget slowdown and lightning casting go!).

I'll have to play around more when I get the game to give a solid opinion on them, though.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyries
Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere. They DO?! Since when?!

Well, I don't play Warriors, but it seems bloody weird to me.

Well, Drain Enchantment is still better that Signet, even then, unless they plan to stay on low energy.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

UK

LoL!

Kite-ahs Burden. They do have a sense of humour.

Also.... It was pointed out that illusion of pain combined with mantra of persistence will of course almost double the damage. A conjure that deals 350-400 damage... even over time the spammbility makes it look great. A fast hex removal makes it a heal... but thats a big threat every 5s..

Stuff like ether signet might actually make keystone signet justifiable over just mantra. However, what such a signet heavy build is going to do with almost +3 pips is beyong me.... i suppose ill have to spam conjure nightmare -.-

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Just to note, used quote on Op's post just to make it easier to organize.

Domination Magic

Arcane Larceny
- I never much used this spell's original. But I would imagine doubly stealing from foes would be quite the fun method. And like the OP said, echoing it has huge possibilities.

Complicate- What to do when Ignorance is recharging, and you need to stop a second warrior.

Overload- LOVE! Put it in with Surge and Burn for added mega damage.

Psychic Distraction {E}- Yay for spam. Best part about this elite is that its a spamable interupt that panders to Ele primaries. Huge energy stores, a fast casting time and a short recharge.

Psychic Instability {E}- Eh. I can see uses for it. Pair it with Clumsiness for a Damage/Knockdown. But the recharge needs to be reworked. It should be ready to go the second it wears off.

Signet of Disruption- I wouldnt choose this as my sole interupt skill. But as a pairing in an interupt build, its fine. An interupt for when you need time to recharge your energy for a better interupt. I think possibly the best part of this skill is that it can interupt anything, not just spells or signets.

Unnatural Signet- Keystone Signet Build, this bastard is a spammable death dealer. In an anti-caster build, it could easily screw over any ritualist. I just like this one.


Fast Casting


Arcane Languor {E}- I had this big speal about how great this skill was gonna be. Then I reread it after a different thread showed me the error in my thinking. Basically, this whole skill has 4 seconds to work. Not only that, you have anticipate the casting of a spell. If thing lasted as long as Backfire, yeah, it'd be worth an Elite. But right now, this spell blows hard. About as hard as Lyssa's Balance. *see below*

Power Return- Dont know about this. It seems like a quirky little skill. And like Avarre said, in Migraine builds this would be quite interesting. "Here, I've shut you down entirely, have some energy back" But we'll just have to see how it works out.

Stolen Speed {E}- I see so much abuse of this skill.


Illusion Magic


Accumulated Pain- Wow. Ok, I saw a couple people say that you dont need Phantom Pain anymore. And truthfully, I see this being more useful paired with Phantom. A renewing Deep Wound. Hell, make your 2 Hexes Frag and Phantom Pain and watch the fun. This is the Frag Mesmer's new happy spell. Pair this with Mantra of Recovery. Watch the fun.

Ancestor's Visage- Soothing Images was so much more useful in Prophecies. So, why would we need a copy of the lesser skill?

Conjure Nightmare- Ugh... could have been great. I really hope this is the first spell to get the Buff Stick. Make it 15 energy. Then it's useable. Compared to Phantasm, that's 5 more energy for 3 more Degen. Instead of 15 for 3. That's not good math Anet.

Illusion of Pain- Only viable in a Mesmer Damage build, like Anti-tanks. But if you pair with Accumulated Pain, it becomes a little more interesting. Imagine this pops while the foe has a Deep wound. That reduces the healing by 4 for each second. And while that's not alot, that's still a difference of..40 health. 200 to 160. It has potential, if paired with the right skills.

Images of Remorse- I'm somewhat scared about this skill. It HAS to be used while the foe is attacking. Which leads to alot of possible problems. Especially in say an Inept build. You have to use this skill first. Why? Because if you blind the target, alot of experienced warriors will stop attacking. So you have to cast this when your foe is already attacking you. Now while this is not a big problem, the foe could get off a good deal of damage before you fire off Inept. I see this as being good, but not great.

Kitah's Burden- Works great as Energy Management. Fire off both Burdens, get a huge return of energy when they wear off.

Recurring Insecurity {E}- I think this is going to be another one of those Underated skills. I can see this being by far the worst spam ever. Hex after Hex, constant Health Degen. Who cares about its own recharge time? Seriously, You put this at the beginning of your chain of hexes, and you have a long running 3 degen. And while that's not alot, its enough to get things interesting. This would be a great elite for a Mesmer and Necro combination.

Shared Burden {E}- I kept trying to think of ways this would be good for a Mesmer primary, and I cant think of one. Other than general annoyance of your foes. And there are much better snares out there in Water Magic, and for the same energy/cast. The one thing this one has going for it is its range.


Inspiration Magic


Auspicious Incantation- Needs to be reworked desperately. Regain needs to be alot higher. Or, this spell needs to be more like the Elemental Attunements. Where its a constant return, not a single one. You can up the recharge still for the energy costs, but reduce the cost of the recharge to 3-1 seconds for each spell. "For 60 seconds, you gain back %-% of whatever you cast for, the recharge of this spell is upped by 3 seconds for each spell you cast"

Ether Signet- Mantra of Signets or Keystone definetly needed along side this one. And in that case, if you were trying to actually run a build where you need energy, then Mantra is your only viable choice. This needs to be reworked. Either give a much bigger energy boost, or give it a much shorter reload.

Feedback- Paired with The Handsmasher, and Mantra of Recovery, this could be alot more useful than it is right now. But, its definetly useful in a Denial build. Its just not overly reliable due to the recharge time. There are faster recharging energy denial, or enchantment stripping spells.

Hex Eater Signet- This will get used, especially in 12vs12 where lots of people are all bunched up together. I've seen alot of Necros there use Suffering.

Lyssa's Aura {E}- Love it. I've had plenty of times I've gotten into 1vs1 matches with other casters in the middle of battle. This is the perfect spell for those times.

Power Leech {E}I would love to use Arcane Mimicry with another Mesmer who has Lyssa's Aura and watch would would happen if you used these two together. This spell is comparable to Power Block. As Power Block is the Elite of Power Spike, this would be the elite of Power Leak. I would like this alot better if the Hex portion lasted about 10 seconds longer. It'd be like an energy stealing version of Backfire then.

Revealed Hex & Enchantment- Gonna be seeing alot of these doubled up with their twins.


No Attribute


Expel Hexes {E}- Love. That's all I have to say.

Lyssa's Balance- Compared to the other "God"-related skills... this blows so hard, it should be illegal to look at it.

Shatter Storm {E}- I can see where this was considered great in R&D. But in-game, its sorta bleh. It'd be great if the enchantments you removed were also disabled for a short ammount of time. Then the downfall of the spell would make more sense. But right now all it is a one shot full enchant removal. And that's not elite, hell there are Necro spells that do this already.

Signet of Disenchantment- Congratualtions Signet of Midnight, you are no longer the most useless Mesmer Signet...


A few of the skills need a buff, and a few need reworks entirely. But I'd say the majority are good skills. Very few are great and outstanding. I'm glad I'm bringing my mesmer over to Cantha, instead of starting a new one.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Well my guild found a use fo Auspicious Incantation. In Alliance Battles, you can do a Smiter Monk. Arcane Echo, Balth's Aura, Auspicious Incantation, Balth's Aura (and regain 45 Energy), then Balth's Aura again. It'll rip through those pesky minions.

Elaine Donnerbalken

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Germany

A Three Headed Monkey Behind U [loOk]

Arcane Languor: could be good in an exhaustion-theme group build. You know, theres a ranger spirit doubling exhaustion. And serpents quickness, meaning you can maintain arcane languor 2 thirds of the time. Plus exhaustion reaches into the negative energy zone, meaning its a better energy drain.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyries
Because the Warrior will loose all Adrienline if they cast blackout.

Casting Blackout ON a Warrior is a good thing. Casting Blackout AS a Warrior doesn't make a ton of sense to me. You are then completely limited to swings of your weapon. Why not leave Blackout to the Mesmers who are already targetting the Monk and smashing them to the ground?? It could be better used elsewhere. If you think about it, it's a non-issue. Using a stance like Battle-rage would only take skills like two more hits to charge, and six seconds of Monk shutdown is worth it IMO.

Keilious Ahruhk

Keilious Ahruhk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sydney

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Mo/

Yup, he's right, the only way to stop a good monk (Ah... Well in my party config) is through blackout or KD.
And KD is now countered by Ward of Stability.

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

NEW EXTREMELY FAST AND POWERFUL MESMER 55 BUILD

1- IW
2- IoR (images of remorse)
3- Any skill is a good skill here
4- Prot Spirit
5- Healing Breeze
6- Balthazar's Spirit
7- Mending
8- Essense Bond (optional....use anything you want here)

20% enchant on a axe or sword

IW and IoR are just perfect for each other in a 55 build IMO since they are both "Illusion based". Imagine the dmg one can do with IW and IoR with 16 points in Illusion Magic. OMFG!

PS. I'm glad I didn't delete my Mesmer. FTW! xD

Inspirational Muse

Inspirational Muse

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Legends of the Forgotten

Me/E

The very first skill I bought during the factions event was Lyssa's Aura. I knew I had to have it

I thought it looked amazing, and indeed, it is. I also tried Stolen Speed. Nice skill for fast cast spikers. You will suprise the hell and scare anyone you attack at the same time with using that skill.

I can foresee many new annoying mesmer builds (and I love it ). DOT builds....*shudders*. now the mesmer can contend with necro in terms of DOTs. especially with mantra of persistance. I can also foresee that in response to this, lots of the new hex-removal spells will be utilized.

I can't wait

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
If you think about it, it's a non-issue. Using a stance like Battle-rage would only take skills like two more hits to charge, and six seconds of Monk shutdown is worth it IMO. Uh...
No, I don't think so.

Your job in PvP is to deal damage, and if your skillbar is blacked out, how do you exactly deal damage?

Of course, your damage is still comparable to the Elementalist, but then that's ANet's problem.

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

I would have replied earlier if I wasn't busy deciding if you were just a plain fool or simply misguided.

The floppery of "Your job in PvP is to deal damage, and if your skillbar is blacked out, how do you exactly deal damage?" is almost laughable. However, as to not be accused of flaming for the sake of it, I'll back my opinion up - which you thankfully did, in spite of your moot arguments.


A warrior, as can be seen by the validation of skills such as primal rage, can easily deal his share of damage through just critical hits. Blackout may well drain your adrenaline and disable your skills, however, at 16 axe mastery you are still dealing along the lines of "63, 20, 18, 63, 63" within those 5~6 seconds of blackout (using the 12/10/8 -> 16/11/8 configuration with a 5 second blackout and a 16 second battle rage).

After those 5 seconds (aside from the fact that within that time your team, if organised properly, can easily deal the monks health in damage - such as with the phantom-pain, surge elementalist build) you can renew battle rage in 2 hits (2.66 seconds), do whatever else you wish then re-enter blackout at the 7 second mark after its duration has ended (if you wait another 1~2 seconds you can squeeze in a dismember, axe rake to add to battle rage and maintain touch distance for its renewal).

The point of a team, may I remind you - and inform anyone who may believe otherwise - is to be integrated. It does not fall upon any one member of a team to purely deal damage.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

My apologies. I thought you said you were spamming it, nor did I notice this was the "New Mesmer Skills" thread. However, I do have a few points to make.

I base all judgement on 1-Warrior teams. The other teammates assist the Warrior on dealing the damage, but the bulk of it is done by the Warrior.

Quote:
Battle Rage
I don't see any Warriors running this, do I? I believe this will become even less attractive with Factions coming up. The only reason I would run Battle Rage on a Warrior, or on anything, in that case, is on a Sword warrior if I only have Prophecies. If you run it on an Axe warrior, you lose out on Eviscerate, for example. If you run it on a Hammer warrior, you lose out on Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker, both of them damage-adding, knockdown, and definitely a first-pick for Hammer wars. And Sword warriors also have a favored elite: Charge. Basically, if you use Battle Rage, you lose the capability on effective spikes, but have an overall higher DPS. Which is not a bad thing, but the ability to spike is quite essential.

Of course, the whole:
Quote:
After those 5 seconds (aside from the fact that within that time your team, if organised properly, can easily deal the monks health in damage - such as with the phantom-pain, surge elementalist build) you can renew battle rage in 2 hits (2.66 seconds), do whatever else you wish then re-enter blackout at the 7 second mark after its duration has ended (if you wait another 1~2 seconds you can squeeze in a dismember, axe rake to add to battle range and maintain touch distance for its renewal). is true, but:

1) I don't think a Blacked Monk can survive a long time, if, as Dragannia posted above. However, unless you are trying to kill the Monk, this point is moot. I think he is, so this leads to a second point. You're wasting one skill slot on killing 1/4 of the opponent, something I don't think is worthwhile. But this is just personal opinion, so I'll just accept what you're saying.

2) Phantom Pain is needless if you have a capable Warrior. A Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound is,
Quote:
criminal .

3) Surging is mainly Mesmer. Also, I believe you mean the 2-surge-2-elly team, which is why you said Surging Elementalist. However, two Surge Mesmers' spikish damage cannot exactly compare to the DoT + Ocassional spike the Warrior provides. They are different media for damaging the opponent.

The Warrior still provides enough damage alone with his/her attacks to compare with the Elementalist, who was supposed to be famed for her damage from her spells. I think it wis "Why Nuking Sucks" by Ensign that discusses the current Warrior-Elementalist damage discrepancy.

Also, you have something wrong there. The usual capable Warrior brings a IAS boost, such as Frenzy. So instead of 2.66, it would be 1.95 seconds. However, doesn't Battle Rage need 4 Adrenaline? (Oh yeah, you already have Battle Rage on...)

Of course, I ran a BiP Warrior for jokes once, but that was a joke. A joke, I tell you.

I'm glad we agree on the last point.

Monkus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Its Raining Fame Hallelujah

W/

In my opinion, Blackout Warriors are very useful for killing Monks, as I know first hand because of all tha angry whispers I get saying that i'm an annoying dickhead.

It all depends on what skills you use and how you use them.

For example you slow them down with ethreal burden or imagined burden than you keep them preoccupied by blackouting them and doing damage, while the rest of your handsome team wipes out their team.

So all this talk about them being pointless is really a moot point.

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I base all judgement on 1-Warrior teams. The other teammates assist the Warrior on dealing the damage, but the bulk of it is done by the Warrior.

(a quote)

I don't see any Warriors running this, do I? I believe this will become even less attractive with Factions coming up. The only reason I would run Battle Rage on a Warrior, or on anything, in that case, is on a Sword warrior if I only have Prophecies. If you run it on an Axe warrior, you lose out on Eviscerate, for example. If you run it on a Hammer warrior, you lose out on Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker, both of them damage-adding, knockdown, and definitely a first-pick for Hammer wars. And Sword warriors also have a favored elite: Charge. Basically, if you use Battle Rage, you lose the capability on effective spikes, but have an overall higher DPS. Which is not a bad thing, but the ability to spike is quite essential.

You underestimate battle rage. Of course, you do have valid points in the area of hammer warriors - they would much rather something else, as they require an attack speed boost of some sort for the most part.

However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp, one must realise that a monk is forever moving and any conditions you stack upon them (such as sever-gash or dismem-rake combos) may be used against you in the form of a simple mend ailment + boon. Hence, the most effective way to kill a monk if you are a warrior is to not concentrate upon dealing damage at standstill, or at particular moments, but pressuring the monk by outputting continual damage.

Stances such as battle rage and rush are by far and away the most useful for a warrior, and note they may be used quite freely in alternation with other stances (although battlerage less so than rush). Running 25% faster as these stances grant may not appear to be all that fantastic to some, but then one realises that this (as apparently accentuated by a-net's movement-melee formulas) equals effectively a 3x multiplier upon how many hits one lands on a moving target - not to mention that they are not only free, but they may be activated at all times. This results in more adrenaline gained and more damage dealt over time.

In reference to other elites, one must assess the strategy of the team. If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage then one may be able to attest to the use of elites such as eviscerate. However, this is only because battle-rage ends if you use a non-attack skill (thus disallowing the warrior from using skills such as gale).

Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle. If one chooses to stand in one place and attack (such as with flurry or frenzy), their play style obviously revolves around on-the-spot output, and not actual damage overall - especially since due to the movement of monks and other soft targets, this damage is significantly decreased. These players would obviously prefer an eviscerate-type skill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell Of course, the whole (a quote) is true, but:

1) I don't think a Blacked Monk can survive a long time, if, as Dragannia posted above. However, unless you are trying to kill the Monk, this point is moot. I think he is, so this leads to a second point. You're wasting one skill slot on killing 1/4 of the opponent, something I don't think is worthwhile. But this is just personal opinion, so I'll just accept what you're saying.

2) Phantom Pain is needless if you have a capable Warrior. A Warrior without the ability to Deep Wound is,

3) Surging is mainly Mesmer. Also, I believe you mean the 2-surge-2-elly team, which is why you said Surging Elementalist. However, two Surge Mesmers' spikish damage cannot exactly compare to the DoT + Occasional spike the Warrior provides. They are different media for damaging the opponent.
1) needless to say, we're talking about an 12 second monk kill here. A team given 12 seconds to formulate a battle strategy given an opponent, process targets, then initiate will be disrupted by the death of their monk in such a short period (an example being the obby flame build when used properly in Team Arenas) - killing a monk is not just killing 1/4 players, it is killing their healing and their moral (player wise, not death penalty wise).

2 & 3) the phantom pain surge elem build is simple and not quite what you would expect. It involves the following skill combo: Phantom pain, lightning surge, lightning orb, shatter delusions, lightning strike - doing 500 damage in the space of about 3 seconds with a 4 second leadup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
The Warrior still provides enough damage alone with his/her attacks to compare with the Elementalist, who was supposed to be famed for her damage from her spells. I think it wis "Why Nuking Sucks" by Ensign that discusses the current Warrior-Elementalist damage discrepancy.

Also, you have something wrong there. The usual capable Warrior brings a IAS boost, such as Frenzy. So instead of 2.66, it would be 1.95 seconds. However, doesn't Battle Rage need 4 Adrenaline? (Oh yeah, you already have Battle Rage on...) The warrior-elementalist debate is more along the lines of what can deal damage in what time period, a warrior specialises in DOT, whereas an elementalists specialises in spike. These are completely differing things – however eviscerate may be said to be a spike of sorts.

In general, this is but one warrior in a team of four – you may wish to have another employing a dissimilar strategy, but from personal experience, and not simply opinion, the rage/rush-er will always prove to deal more damage than any other type of sword/axe warrior.

And please, do not forget about rangers – warriors are not the only things which can deal significant damage over time.

suiraCLAW

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

What if you combine a mesmer with physical instability and a cover hex with a ranger with practice stance + choking gas? (looks like constant knockdown...)

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

Looking upon my previous posts, I must concede that battle-rage will end upon the use of blackout, and hence may not be the best idea for the warrior-blackout build (it's good, but not the best, as questionability of usefulness outside the field of monk shutdown comes into order).

Sprint is a likely alternative.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by byteme!
NEW EXTREMELY FAST AND POWERFUL MESMER 55 BUILD

1- IW
2- IoR (images of remorse)
3- Any skill is a good skill here
4- Prot Spirit
5- Healing Breeze
6- Balthazar's Spirit
7- Mending
8- Essense Bond (optional....use anything you want here)

20% enchant on a axe or sword

IW and IoR are just perfect for each other in a 55 build IMO since they are both "Illusion based". Imagine the dmg one can do with IW and IoR with 16 points in Illusion Magic. OMFG!

PS. I'm glad I didn't delete my Mesmer. FTW! xD
Every time you stop attacking to cast... you lose 42 damage from IW. Yes using IoR would increase damage output significantly (its something like 41 at 12~ illusion, and -4 degen). However, be reminded you require 16 energy every 10 seconds to maintain your enchantments, and constantly casting IoR would play merry hell once the number of foes you faced was reduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp... Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle This is a factions skill discussion thread... have you read the skill Quivering Blade? +42 for 4 strikes, and combined with plague touch for a capability to daze and the option for an ias stance, I think that slaughters battle rage + galrath or executioner's.

In any case, warriors aren't used with blackout because it's simply more effective on other characters that don't lose all their adren. One of your chars is going to be down for 5 seconds... but for warriors, the adrenaline loss makes it more significant. Battle Rage is far from an ideal solution, as you'd be a good deal more efficient just using heavy warrior attack skills and an ally's blackout.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
You underestimate battle rage. Of course, you do have valid points in the area of hammer warriors - they would much rather something else, as they require an attack speed boost of some sort for the most part.

However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp, one must realise that a monk is forever moving and any conditions you stack upon them (such as sever-gash or dismem-rake combos) may be used against you in the form of a simple mend ailment + boon. Hence, the most effective way to kill a monk if you are a warrior is to not concentrate upon dealing damage at standstill, or at particular moments, but pressuring the monk by outputting continual damage.
I do not underestimate Battle Rage. Sure, it's fine and dandy in Arenas, but I find it extremely unuseful outside it.
Personally, I find that the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combo is better than the Eviscerate at the start, since the Deep Wound deals an additional 100~ damage. Every "Pressure" team you see has a minispike some time on, and the Elite skill helps tremendously.
But we digress. We are not on topic, nor was Blackout.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran Stances such as battle rage and rush are by far and away the most useful for a warrior, and note they may be used quite freely in alternation with other stances (although battlerage less so than rush). Running 25% faster as these stances grant may not appear to be all that fantastic to some, but then one realises that this (as apparently accentuated by a-net's movement-melee formulas) equals effectively a 3x multiplier upon how many hits one lands on a moving target - not to mention that they are not only free, but they may be activated at all times. This results in more adrenaline gained and more damage dealt over time. Yes, I do realize. This is one point for you. Although I really disagree about the "by far and away the most useful for a warrior", since, for the points I described above, the Warrior must be ready for both.


Quote: Originally Posted by Aran In reference to other elites, one must assess the strategy of the team. If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage then one may be able to attest to the use of elites such as eviscerate. However, this is only because battle-rage ends if you use a non-attack skill (thus disallowing the warrior from using skills such as gale). If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage
. And that is completely true in the current metagame; the other classes' damage capabilities are just too...sloppy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle. If one chooses to stand in one place and attack (such as with flurry or frenzy), their play style obviously revolves around on-the-spot output, and not actual damage overall - especially since due to the movement of monks and other soft targets, this damage is significantly decreased. These players would obviously prefer an eviscerate-type skill. No, actually. Most prefer the damage elite because it helps more than Battle Rage.

No, actually. If you have a CripShot spammer spamming away at your target, given you're actually being serious in PvP, then I don't see kiting as a big enough problem yet. Of course, unless their opposing Air Ele is galeing you, or if you're crippled yourself, but that's where the typical Frenzy-Axe Warrior's Sprint comes in. You should have sprint ready if you get hit, anyways. Plus the fact you don't really have a choice if you're Gale'd.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran 1) needless to say, we're talking about an 12 second monk kill here. A team given 12 seconds to formulate a battle strategy given an opponent, process targets, then initiate will be disrupted by the death of their monk in such a short period (an example being the obby flame build when used properly in Team Arenas) - killing a monk is not just killing 1/4 players, it is killing their healing and their moral (player wise, not death penalty wise). Twelve seconds is a lot, and so can twelve seconds a monk completely heal herself fourteen times over for her max health. Twelve seconds on Teamspeak is the turnpoint on many matches.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran
2 & 3) the phantom pain surge elem build is simple and not quite what you would expect. It involves the following skill combo: Phantom pain, lightning surge, lightning orb, shatter delusions, lightning strike - doing 500 damage in the space of about 3 seconds with a 4 second leadup. Lightning Surge is not worth talking about. Phantom Pain should not be used in any team with a warrior, since a Warrior without a Deep Wounder is "criminal". Deep Wound is the killing condition.

By the way, I have to ask, a second time, are you serious? If you play with half-decent monks, four seconds is a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
The warrior-elementalist debate is more along the lines of what can deal damage in what time period, a warrior specialises in DOT, whereas an elementalists specialises in spike. These are completely differing things – however eviscerate may be said to be a spike of sorts. Exactement. There, you just got yourself all tripped up. I'll point out.

Executioners-Penetrating-Eviscerate with a shock inbetween is far more damaging than the average airspike. Warrior spike ftw?

Although Spike characters virtually have no damage, but the average Warrior who spikes still has that damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
In general, this is but one warrior in a team of four – you may wish to have another employing a dissimilar strategy, but from personal experience, and not simply opinion, the rage/rush-er will always prove to deal more damage than any other type of sword/axe warrior. Oh, you're talking about Arenas. In my personal experience, Battle Rage does not progress any more than Arenas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
And please, do not forget about rangers – warriors are not the only things which can deal significant damage over time. Yes, Rangers are good. I have heard of Ranger Spike, after all. And there are those CripShot-Apply Rangers that kill my elly every time without fail.

Peace. I hope I didn't flame too much.

Back to the Factions Skill Discussion...

(By the way, if you'd want to discuss it, Aran, feel free to PM me )

EDIT: I mean 1-Warrior teams as in, for example, the Bigger Big build posted on our forum.

Keilious Ahruhk

Keilious Ahruhk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sydney

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Mo/

You do make some valid points, LightningHell, and you're rapidly giving me the impression that you're one of those people who believe that HA and GvG is "what GW is about". (That's what's great about this game though, everyone can enjoy it in a different way)
To set one thing straight, TA and AB is everything to us, and its the main bulk of our experience with GW.

Granted, the metagame in HA accomodates much better for warriors leaning towards spike simply because you don't have to deal with the massive ammount of running that people do in TA.
Sustained damage pressure does alot more for you in TA, because it will have an effect, whereas in HA such damage can be completely negated with little to no cost to the team's resources.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Blah blah blah You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own. Didn't you notice where I wrote "I am looking at this from a PvP perspective"? So, you've essentially just waffled with little clue of what you were talking about.

Hella Good

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

I'm just going to crosspost the section of my post in the Factions forum that deals with the few mesmer skills I got a chance to try:

Overload- It is my understanding that this is like an anti-ele type of skill. It's ok... but it's also nothing to be excited about.

Unnatural Sig- The return of this skill is a big one. I love it. It's nice for killing annoying Rt spirits, it's nice as a finishing spike (Mesmers always seem to need the last move), and I can finally make a highly effective and damaging Sig mes.

Accumulated Pain- Phantom Pain/Shatter Del alternative. I used it on top on Images of Remorse and Conjure Phantasm-> 10 degen, some minor spike damage, and a Deep Wound. Worked perfectly fine.

Conjure Nightmare- This skill is damn costly... I used it with Glyph of Energy. It is cool, because of its low cooldown you can spread it around and max degen a lot fo things and if u use GoE or smth similar to negate the cost, it can be really useful.

Images of Remorse- Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful new addition. Clumsiness meets Conjure Phantasm for a cheap, low recharge anti-war, ranger, assassin move. If your target isn't attacking- who cares- give them some cheap 5 degen anyway!

I didn't unlock any elites. However, I can tell you one thing for certain- I am never going to waste 3k faction to unlock Arcane Languor. It's pathetic. More than pathetic- it's worse than 99% of the mesmer non-elites. Horrible. Unless they buff it big time, I'm not unlocking it. I didn't like Recurring Insecurity elite, too. 3 degen is nothing. Not gonna waste my elite on a skill that does nothing more than a lingering 3 degen.

Oh, and those no attribute skills (excluding Expell Hexes) are worthless looking. Don't think I'll go to such lengths to get rid of a chant or two. Not when I have 2 Inspa Chants, Shatter Chant, and a whole lot of stuff I can borrow from Necros (including the totally amazing Order of Apostasy). I hope they edit these skills big time before release.

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

As a final note - as you have obviously expected yours to be so (yes, I am doing this to spite you) - and as we're discussing blackout's uses (thus fitting nicely in the grey area of discussion in the Mesmer forums) - not to mention that (as a guild friend) the original poster is more than happy for me to rant on, I shall put in my two cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I do not underestimate Battle Rage. Sure, it's fine and dandy in Arenas, but I find it extremely unuseful outside it.
Personally, I find that the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combo is better than the Eviscerate at the start, since the Deep Wound deals an additional 100~ damage. Every "Pressure" team you see has a minispike some time on, and the Elite skill helps tremendously.
For my arguments, I'll add to them in an accumulating manner, as I couldn't be bothered wasting any more time than that upon these forums when I could be playing the game.

- A blackout warrior does not need to use blackout at all times, it is just to add pressure at the last seconds or, if organised as such, at any particular moment in battle. (just taking a second to state the obvious in case you missed it)

- Battlerage does not only increase your speed, but the speed at which you can dish out your adrenal skills. As you have said, you'd rather eviscerate being used later on than at the start - which just adds to the argument for battlerage. It allows you to dish out high-damage skills such as exec strike and dismember separately, whilst adding the additional chance of a critical hit more often. This is as attacking a moving foe, as we all know, yields a greater chance of critical hits and speed boosts add a 3x multiplier upon hits gained whilst a target is moving (this is in fact false, as it is an understatement), by simple mathematics (as you are obviously handy with a calculator), this results in greater DOT.

- the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combination within itself is a selfish one. Having multiple warriors (although you have chosen to discuss a single warrior team, I'm redirecting this to the broader spectrum) concludes that having a moving soft target (any caster or assassin) subject to the dismem-rake-exec combination will take more damage over all, as due to the moving-melee formulas, it results in an increase of how many hits you can make due to the speed reduction of the foe, but not in critical hits made upon them (due to the fact that they are still moving). This isn't even to mention that dismem-rake-exec as a combo is executed in a fraction of the time by a battle-raging warrior.

- it is not the job of a blackout warrior to provide minispikes - as a ranger on the team may be able to do this with ease. Blackout simply adds a large amount of pressure to a monk - as you say later on, a second is forever for a monk - 5x that is that much more. Hence it can be seen that the blackout warrior doesn't really need to be dealing damage whilst in blackout - he is simply providing an opportunity. Any damage outside blackout is increased due to battle rage,


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage. And that is completely true in the current metagame; the other classes' damage capabilities are just too...sloppy.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the metagame has shifted in the latest updates. Due to the now international state of the Arenas and how this has effected others' way of thinking, the metagame is vastly different. It now results (on the korean side, and hence internationally - as they appear to be the greatest influences) in a large amount of hex-based degeneration teams which utilise defensive stances and offensive skills used defensively to prevent damage.

Thus it has now become more about sustaining healing and spreading damage in order to kill enemies faster than they kill you (and shut them down before you can shut them down).


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
No, actually. Most prefer the damage elite because it helps more than Battle Rage.
No, actually, most prefer to have damage dealing builds because large numbers, in their minds = good. To most, actual statistics and applied battle situations (and thus actual damage calculations) give way to what the green number in the skill description states. You appear to me to fall under this category


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
No, actually. If you have a CripShot spammer spamming away at your target, given you're actually being serious in PvP, then I don't see kiting as a big enough problem yet. Of course, unless their opposing Air Ele is galeing you, or if you're crippled yourself, but that's where the typical Frenzy-Axe Warrior's Sprint comes in. You should have sprint ready if you get hit, anyways. Plus the fact you don't really have a choice if you're Gale'd You have described a team which obviously wont need battle rage - as I had stated, it depends upon the team, so your example supports your argument but does not address mine.


Quote: Originally Posted by LightningHell
Twelve seconds is a lot, and so can twelve seconds a monk completely heal herself fourteen times over for her max health. Twelve seconds on Teamspeak is the turnpoint on many matches. Twelve seconds may be a lot, but looking at actual damage timeframes I have stated, it is a 3 second kill - 2 of which the monk is blacked out, not to mention that the lead-up time of the particular build I stated takes up the rest of this + 2 seconds (maximum). The rest of the 12 seconds is spent getting into range - something which must be accounted for.

This is of course, an arena's situation - blackout warriors aren't really an 8v8 or 12v12 thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Lightning Surge is not worth talking about. Phantom Pain should not be used in any team with a warrior, since a Warrior without a Deep Wounder is "criminal". Deep Wound is the killing condition.

By the way, I have to ask, a second time, are you serious? If you play with half-decent monks, four seconds is a long time. Yes, deep wound is the killing condition - but you want it inflicted at the right time - which is the point of that particular elementalist build. Oh, and did you forget that the warrior is spending his/her time blacking out the monk at this point in time? How do you expect a deep wound from them in that particular situation in battle (not that it is the only one the warrior can be in).


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Executioners-Penetrating-Eviscerate with a shock inbetween is far more damaging than the average airspike. Warrior spike ftw?

Although Spike characters virtually have no damage, but the average Warrior who spikes still has that damage. Warriors, as many can attest, do not do spike damage.

Warriors do damage over time.

A monk hit with that particular combination of skills is dealt about 400 damage - a large amount, sure, but not entirely unrecoverable via a single reversal - and did you forget about guardian?

Blackout is superior to shock in monk killing by all means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Oh, you're talking about Arenas. In my personal experience, Battle Rage does not progress any more than Arenas. You obviously lack experience.

"Peace".

Keilious Ahruhk

Keilious Ahruhk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sydney

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own. You're starting to come across as almost aggressive, I hardly think my post was of a "blah blah blah" calibur, and TA needs alot more tactics than you might think, there is no part of GW which is greater than another.
Lets see, you need to consider each persons build in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
You need to consider your environment and terrain advantage in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
Are there specific builds that are only very effective in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.
Are there special character skill combos and cross-player skill combinations that work in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
You're starting to come across as almost aggressive, I hardly think my post was of a "blah blah blah" calibur, and TA needs alot more tactics than you might think, there is no part of GW which is greater than another.
Keilious, I am sorry for using the "Blah blah blah". I did not want a quote to take so much space, when my comment was so short. Nor do I mean to be aggressive. Yes, I realize no part of GW is more important to the other; I am just referring to the calibur of the players playing there (HA isn't such a decent place, either, though.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Lets see, you need to consider each persons build in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
With eight people, the game becomes exceedingly complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
You need to consider your environment and terrain advantage in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
Yes. The point above applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Are there specific builds that are only very effective in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA. Yes. The point above applies.

Quote: Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk Are there special character skill combos and cross-player skill combinations that work in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA. Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP (notice the "s), while the GvG combinations almost always work back in TA. I do not vouch for HA.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dragannia Didn't you notice where I wrote "I am looking at this from a PvP perspective"? So, you've essentially just waffled with little clue of what you were talking about. I do notice that we are talking in a PvP perspective. However, I do not PvP much, but I do use a calculator and be smart, and ocassionally read the forums.

Please read better/Please not let prejudices affect your judgement, whichever applies to you.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran As a final note - as you have obviously expected yours to be so (yes, I am doing this to spite you) - and as we're discussing blackout's uses (thus fitting nicely in the grey area of discussion in the Mesmer forums) - not to mention that (as a guild friend) the original poster is more than happy for me to rant on, I shall put in my two cents. I would be more happy if you sent a PM, but I am not angry.
And I am sorry if this post would be considered as "spiting you".

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran For my arguments, I'll add to them in an accumulating manner, as I couldn't be bothered wasting any more time than that upon these forums when I could be playing the game.

- A blackout warrior does not need to use blackout at all times, it is just to add pressure at the last seconds or, if organised as such, at any particular moment in battle. (just taking a second to state the obvious in case you missed it) To Blackout yourself may contribute to the team at that second, but why do it when there is a person who can do it while not wasting that much resources (to Blackout yourself you spend energy + adrenaline, while if one of your teammates uses the blackout he/she only spends energy. Personally, I think this is even more ridiculous, with the Warrior's innate 2-Energy-regeneration). Of course, there is the question about range, but that is why CripShot Rangers often had blackout; I do not know after the update.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran - Battlerage does not only increase your speed, but the speed at which you can dish out your adrenal skills. As you have said, you'd rather eviscerate being used later on than at the start - which just adds to the argument for battlerage. It allows you to dish out high-damage skills such as exec strike and dismember separately, whilst adding the additional chance of a critical hit more often. This is as attacking a moving foe, as we all know, yields a greater chance of critical hits and speed boosts add a 3x multiplier upon hits gained whilst a target is moving (this is in fact false, as it is an understatement), by simple mathematics (as you are obviously handy with a calculator), this results in greater DOT. I do my research, even if they are incomplete. I do my homework.

Unless the team only has 1 monk, this will not be so. However, all your points are correct with 1 monk, so I'll bypass. (Once again, you're not addressing my concerns.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran - the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combination within itself is a selfish one. Having multiple warriors (although you have chosen to discuss a single warrior team, I'm redirecting this to the broader spectrum) concludes that having a moving soft target (any caster or assassin) subject to the dismem-rake-exec combination will take more damage over all, as due to the moving-melee formulas, it results in an increase of how many hits you can make due to the speed reduction of the foe, but not in critical hits made upon them (due to the fact that they are still moving). This isn't even to mention that dismem-rake-exec as a combo is executed in a fraction of the time by a battle-raging warrior. Can you elaborate on the "selfish" part of the text again?

I do not mind that you are doing to the broader spectrum.

But I'm really confused how you get the higher damage on using dismember-axe rake-executioner's strike. If you're stating that the Rake will snare the opponent, I assume there is a snarer/CripShot Ranger in your party, so we're talking different planets again.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran Hence it can be seen that the blackout warrior doesn't really need to be dealing damage whilst in blackout Ooh, nice manipulation of enemies.

But you're wasting the power of the most potent damage machine ANet has given us. In this stage of the game, in my experience, Warriors - at least smart ones - do more damage than Rangers. So why not stick the Blackout on the Ranger?

Actually, that would be the old CripShot Ranger...

Quote: Originally Posted by Aran
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the metagame has shifted in the latest updates. Due to the now international state of the Arenas and how this has effected others' way of thinking, the metagame is vastly different. It now results (on the korean side, and hence internationally - as they appear to be the greatest influences) in a large amount of hex-based degeneration teams which utilise defensive stances and offensive skills used defensively to prevent damage. Okay, I accept this point - simply because I haven't been in Arenas for some weeks now. I wasn't really talking about Arenas, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
Thus it has now become more about sustaining healing and spreading damage in order to kill enemies faster than they kill you (and shut them down before you can shut them down). (Which is why a Hammer warrior is good.)

If that is so, the I believe the CoP Warrior will dominate more than the Blackout warrior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
No, actually, most prefer to have damage dealing builds because large numbers, in their minds = good. To most, actual statistics and applied battle situations (and thus actual damage calculations) give way to what the green number in the skill description states. You appear to me to fall under this category. Actually, playing a more ... subtle role as the Elementalist (or ocassionally Mesmer), I scarcely ignore the potential and tactical use of a skill. Look at my in-game-profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
You have described a team which obviously wont need battle rage - as I had stated, it depends upon the team, so your example supports your argument but does not address mine. Your arguments do not address mine, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
Twelve seconds may be a lot, but looking at actual damage timeframes I have stated, it is a 3 second kill - 2 of which the monk is blacked out, not to mention that the lead-up time of the particular build I stated takes up the rest of this + 2 seconds (maximum). The rest of the 12 seconds is spent getting into range - something which must be accounted for.

This is of course, an arena's situation - blackout warriors aren't really an 8v8 or 12v12 thing. I will ignore the last line, since you seem not to wish for me to pick it up.

You have to take into account when you use Blackout, you also reset all adrenaline built up. Also, your Blackout automatically disables your Battle Rage, making you not able to gain the bonus from Battle Rage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
Yes, deep wound is the killing condition - but you want it inflicted at the right time - which is the point of that particular elementalist build. Oh, and did you forget that the warrior is spending his/her time blacking out the monk at this point in time? How do you expect a deep wound from them in that particular situation in battle (not that it is the only one the warrior can be in). How do Elementalists create a Deep Wound again?

Euh...not many options there.

I am suggesting you drop Blackout from the Warrior. If you do the Blackout, that will mean you cannot inflict the Deep Wound, nor can you inflict the Crippled condition, nor can you inflict anything else but poison if you have Apply, but then you're using a /Me for Blackout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
Warriors, as many can attest, do not do spike damage.

Warriors do damage over time. That is why I said "minispike". If I did not say that, forgive me, I was meant to say that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
A monk hit with that particular combination of skills is dealt about 400 damage - a large amount, sure, but not entirely unrecoverable via a single reversal - and did you forget about guardian?

Blackout is superior to shock in monk killing by all means. No I did not forget about Guardian, nor did I forget about Aegis, nor Shadow of Fear, nor Protective Spirit, nor Deep Freeze, nor Crippling Shot, nor Distortion, or any other skill for that matter.

Blackout is well superior to shock in monk killing, but is it feasible to put that task of blacking out to a Warrior? Yes, Blackout is very good, but putting Blackout on a Warrior does not make sense to me, since you also drain all your adrenaline while doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran
You obviously lack experience. This is not a sentence I would take lightly, although you may count me as "inexperienced", as you play a Warrior and I do not? This build is clearly a gimmick.
Do not create these statements lightly; I got flamed over one of them, and over the same one, got a mod angry.

I am quite happy already this discussion does not go the way many discussions do - flaming.

To end, I think we're talking entirely different worlds here. And for the love of God, can an "expert" Warrior come over and correct both of us.

(And please don't think I'm stupid.)

Hella Good

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

Despite your dominating belief, you are not writing a Bible here... Also, I fail to see the topic discussion. Pms are a wonderful solution for personal vendetta. Forum threads - not. Now back to new mesmer skills.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Hella Good, who are you addressing? As for me, the above posts are my opinions - no need to believe them. Also, different things work differently. No one said it was a Bible. I generally defend my opinions if possible, and I try to respect others'.

(And yes, I did include an offer for PMs - however, since I had to reply to multiple recipients, I figured posting would be a better idea.)

Keilious Ahruhk

Keilious Ahruhk

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sydney

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Keilious, I am sorry for using the "Blah blah blah". I did not want a quote to take so much space, when my comment was so short. Nor do I mean to be aggressive. Yes, I realize no part of GW is more important to the other; I am just referring to the calibur of the players playing there (HA isn't such a decent place, either, though.)
Oh righty then, I use *snip* to designate where I cut large quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
With eight people, the game becomes exceedingly complex.
Oh, most certainly, and although you do have to put a slightly higher level of thinking into making a great team, its more the quantity of thought required, rather than the quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP (notice the "s), while the GvG combinations almost always work back in TA. I do not vouch for HA. Definitely, but there are of course skill combos that become obselete in GvG that work just fine in TA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I do notice that we are talking in a PvP perspective. However, I do not PvP much, but I do use a calculator and be smart, and ocassionally read the forums. Of course, that's one way of looking at PvP, I find pure calculation is rather limited in its uses simply because of the large variety of teams you could oppose.

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

*expert warrior jumps into the room* - I do have over 1k hours under my belt mainly as a warrior, so I hope this suffices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
To Blackout yourself may contribute to the team at that second, but why do it when there is a person who can do it while not wasting that much resources (to Blackout yourself you spend energy + adrenaline, while if one of your teammates uses the blackout he/she only spends energy. Personally, I think this is even more ridiculous, with the Warrior's innate 2-Energy-regeneration). Of course, there is the question about range, but that is why CripShot Rangers often had blackout; I do not know after the update.
- because in the instance of 4v4, the warrior can do it himself whilst being in range (much as you stated) and at the time (say the monk is on 30%), depending upon the team (remember, you only have 3 slots to work with given that a monk is given in most teams - -1 if you have this warrior, so 2) this may be just enough to finish the man off.

Namely, we're not saying the build is fantastic, we're saying that
a) blackout is more useful than shock on a warrior in our opinion
b) it does indeed have its uses - so much so that the usage of so much of the warrior's resources may be warranted.

Plus, due to the now extended recharge of blackout, and hence the need for a ranger to keep in range (mind, he cant do this automatically as he is wielding a bow - unless he bothers switching), crip rangers in general - and even more so with the fact that crip has been upped in energy cost, are out of fashion, not to mention ones with blackout.

As an added note, the fact that blackout has an extended recharge adds to the BO warrior’s output, hence making it less of a useless damager.

Oh, and did you forget the zealous upgrade? Seeing as this isn't a quintessential damage-dealer, it's a semi-monk shutdown, zealous doesn't hurt one bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I do my research, even if they are incomplete. I do my homework.

Unless the team only has 1 monk, this will not be so. However, all your points are correct with 1 monk, so I'll bypass. (Once again, you're not addressing my concerns.)
I am addressing your concerns, you're just not reading in deep enough - rather, looking for things to criticise. If you feel it needed, just list them in your next post, which you are bound to put up.

And yes, as I stated, the blackout warrior is useful in pvp as a 4v4 build. I do not pretend to admit that it is rather flawed in an 8v8 setting - in 12v12, however, as monks dont expect it, it MAY have its uses, but I have not assessed the situation with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Can you elaborate on the "selfish" part of the text again?

I do not mind that you are doing to the broader spectrum.

But I'm really confused how you get the higher damage on using dismember-axe rake-executioner's strike. If you're stating that the Rake will snare the opponent, I assume there is a snarer/CripShot Ranger in your party, so we're talking different planets again.
- much unlike warriors who use frenzy as opposed to rush, blackout warriors are designed to not have a snare ranger on the team. I can't believe you haven’t gathered that much (mind, this is in a 4v4 setting).

- hence, it can be seen that a crippled target allows other warriors to effecitvely catch up and hence deal the aditional damage earlier stated (hence, not being selfish - ie, not concentrating upon only what you are doing)


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Ooh, nice manipulation of enemies.
?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
But you're wasting the power of the most potent damage machine ANet has given us. In this stage of the game, in my experience, Warriors - at least smart ones - do more damage than Rangers. So why not stick the Blackout on the Ranger?

Actually, that would be the old CripShot Ranger...
- the question of being the most potent is questionable
- Warriors are also versatile, which is what this build revolves around - they do not have to be all damage.
- and the cripshotter is addressed earlier


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
(Which is why a Hammer warrior is good.)

If that is so, the I believe the CoP Warrior will dominate more than the Blackout warrior.
- Hammer warriors are as effected by crippling anguish, conjure phantasm, ineptitude, clumsiness and distortion as much as any other type of warrior. In general - these teams cannot be fought on the most part by warriors, unless you have a team high in hex removal. However, in these teams, yes, a hammer warrior will be more effective.

To clarify, I was stating that warriors are no longer the focus of the arenas - or in tombs for that matter (gvg and 12v12 are completely different matters).

- a CoP warrior may well be more effective, but that isn't the point (which is, a BO warrior CAN do the job)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Actually, playing a more ... subtle role as the Elementalist (or ocassionally Mesmer), I scarcely ignore the potential and tactical use of a skill. Look at my in-game-profession.
I play an e/me as well, so I know where you're coming from with this one - however, some of your statements show none of this learned subtlety.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Your arguments do not address mine, either. This is because we parted ways in that I have been discussing the BO warrior in 4v4, and you have been discussing it in 8v8. Obviously, it's usefulness is limited to purely the arenas - as you've stated.


Quote: Originally Posted by LightningHell I will ignore the last line, since you seem not to wish for me to pick it up. Actually, I thought you would cue from it as to what I was talking about.


Quote: Originally Posted by LightningHell You have to take into account when you use Blackout, you also reset all adrenaline built up. Also, your Blackout automatically disables your Battle Rage, making you not able to gain the bonus from Battle Rage. I already admitted this earlier - and noted sprint as an alternative, although the build does suffer from this flaw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
How do Elementalists create a Deep Wound again?

Euh...not many options there. By using their secondary. As you should know. E/ME you say you play, and yet you forget phantom pain? I was indeed discussing the phantompain-surge build – which I described earlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I am suggesting you drop Blackout from the Warrior. If you do the Blackout, that will mean you cannot inflict the Deep Wound, nor can you inflict the Crippled condition, nor can you inflict anything else but poison if you have Apply, but then you're using a /Me for Blackout. There is, as afore stated, the question of not spamming blackout at every instant, although I may have implied otherwise, this was intended as can be seen in some of my statements (such as the e-sarcasm in "if you wait 1-2 more seconds" - although I had forgotten at the time that b-rage would end upon use of blackout)


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
That is why I said "minispike". If I did not say that, forgive me, I was meant to say that. Oh you did, but you implied that only a warrior can do this (though tone if nothing else), so my disagreement lied within that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
No I did not forget about Guardian, nor did I forget about Aegis, nor Shadow of Fear, nor Protective Spirit, nor Deep Freeze, nor Crippling Shot, nor Distortion, or any other skill for that matter. Didn't you?

So what's the most powerful damage dealer A-net have given us in light of this? Clearly, by your own statements, a warrior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Blackout is well superior to shock in monk killing, but is it feasible to put that task of blacking out to a Warrior? Yes, Blackout is very good, but putting Blackout on a Warrior does not make sense to me, since you also drain all your adrenaline while doing so. There are pros and cons of delegating the task to the warrior. In short - after testing a few weeks ago, before we had to shift due to the new metagame brought by updates - blackout IS effective in killing monks, and in a 4v4 situation, it is worth it.

Sure he looses his adrenaline, but as I've stated at the start - this doesn't stop him from at least dealing his share of damage (critical hits) - as can be accentuated by a fleeing fleshy target whilst under sprint or rush.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
This is not a sentence I would take lightly, although you may count me as "inexperienced", as you play a Warrior and I do not? This build is clearly a gimmick. Take the sentence as you will. However, as is everything anyone says within an argument, it is counted as personal opinion and its meaning can be taken as want - I simply stated it in light of my views upon your views.

It may be a gimmick to you, but it does have its definite positives when compared to a shock warrior or the like (as warriors do not have to be the central damage of the team) - this build is only there as a way for warriors to shut down monks to the point where the team has enough monk shutdown. Ie, if the team needs a little - this is a good way to get it. If it needs a lot, a subversion mesmer would be a fitting alternative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
To end, I think we're talking entirely different worlds here. Agreed. (finally something wholly I agree upon)

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Definitely, but there are of course skill combos that become obselete in GvG that work just fine in TA.
I think I said it there...

Quote:
Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Of course, that's one way of looking at PvP, I find pure calculation is rather limited in its uses simply because of the large variety of teams you could oppose.
Well, you can pity poor me for having so little time for Guild Wars.

Quote:
- because in the instance of 4v4, the warrior can do it himself whilst being in range (much as you stated) and at the time (say the monk is on 30%), depending upon the team (remember, you only have 3 slots to work with given that a monk is given in most teams - -1 if you have this warrior, so 2) this may be just enough to finish the man off.
Okay, we're talking 4v4 now. This is going to be hard on me...

I don't have any - and I mean any experience of being a Warrior in any Arena form.

Quote:
Namely, we're not saying the build is fantastic, we're saying that
a) blackout is more useful than shock on a warrior in our opinion
b) it does indeed have its uses - so much so that the usage of so much of the warrior's resources may be warranted.
Actually, for the point a), I find Gale much more useful, since it shuts down the opponent for 3 seconds (as opposed to 5), and doesn't reset your adrenaline. (Hence the Gale Axe model.)

Quote:
Plus, due to the now extended recharge of blackout, and hence the need for a ranger to keep in range (mind, he cant do this automatically as he is wielding a bow - unless he bothers switching), crip rangers in general - and even more so with the fact that crip has been upped in energy cost, are out of fashion, not to mention ones with blackout.
IMHO, people who don't bother to switch their weapon set so they actually contribute to their team is considered a/an (insert rather derogatory term here).

The upping of the E-cost of Crippling Shot doesn't change my opinion in any way, since a spammer of Blackout is a/an (insert another rather derogatory term here).

Quote:
As an added note, the fact that blackout has an extended recharge adds to the BO warrior’s output, hence making it less of a useless damager.
Good.

Quote:
Oh, and did you forget the zealous upgrade? Seeing as this isn't a quintessential damage-dealer, it's a semi-monk shutdown, zealous doesn't hurt one bit. Most warriors have a set of Zealous/Vampiric anyways. This proves your point, actually.


Quote: I am addressing your concerns, you're just not reading in deep enough - rather, looking for things to criticise. If you feel it needed, just list them in your next post, which you are bound to put up. Well, now I have no concerns since we're definitely on 4v4. I always automatically prepare for 8v8 discussions. I might have seen too many of Ensign's/JR's threads.

Quote:
- much unlike warriors who use frenzy as opposed to rush, blackout warriors are designed to not have a snare ranger on the team. I can't believe you haven’t gathered that much (mind, this is in a 4v4 setting). I apologize for automatically assuming you are playing with a CripShot ranger. I've evidently not played Arenas for a long time...so I'm forgetting stuff, please feel free.

Quote:
And yes, as I stated, the blackout warrior is useful in pvp as a 4v4 build. I do not pretend to admit that it is rather flawed in an 8v8 setting - in 12v12, however, as monks dont expect it, it MAY have its uses, but I have not assessed the situation with that. Nor would it be of any use assessing the situation, seeing Factions isn't out yet.

Quote:
? Since a Warrior is the primary damage character in the current game (albeit the easiest to shutdown), you somewhat surprise your enemy by blacking them out instead of using the rather conventional Exec-Penetrating-Evis or Evis-Exec-Penetrating "spike". There's the illusion. Pretty smart one, too.


[/QUOTE]- the question of being the most potent is questionable
- Warriors are also versatile, which is what this build revolves around - they do not have to be all damage.[/QUOTE]

Definition of potent: Having or wielding force or authority (one of its definitions).

The Warrior is capable of the highest damage in the Guild Wars PvP world, but they are as easily shutdown. I think you misintepreted my meaning. But I also think I'm very vague on it...

The second point I concede, since your build clearly looks on that as a point for it.

The third point I also discussed above.


Quote:
- Hammer warriors are as effected by crippling anguish, conjure phantasm, ineptitude, clumsiness and distortion as much as any other type of warrior. In general - these teams cannot be fought on the most part by warriors, unless you have a team high in hex removal. However, in these teams, yes, a hammer warrior will be more effective. I was talking about the Knockdown factor, of which the Backbreaker or Devastating Hammer skill is invaluable.

Quote:
To clarify, I was stating that warriors are no longer the focus of the arenas - or in tombs for that matter (gvg and 12v12 are completely different matters). I am rather slow, am I

Quote:
- a CoP warrior may well be more effective, but that isn't the point (which is, a BO warrior CAN do the job) Point taken, However, it is only natural that people take the course of the more powerful and easier build, which in this case is the CoP Warrior.

Quote:
This is because we parted ways in that I have been discussing the BO warrior in 4v4, and you have been discussing it in 8v8. Obviously, it's usefulness is limited to purely the arenas - as you've stated. Which is what I gathered, and put together in the last line of my last long-ish post. You mentioned it in the end of the post.


Quote:
By using their secondary. As you should know. E/ME you say you play, and yet you forget phantom pain? I was indeed discussing the phantompain-surge build – which I described earlier. I was under the impression that E/Me characters don't have a friendly reception in TA. However, I still doubt the viability of Lightning Surge - something I would doubtless have to test later. In TA, of course. (My belief is that LS would get pummeled in any sort of "higher" level PvP play.)

I would have to test this BO build in TA, looks promising for it.

Aran

Aran

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL] - formerly [EVIL]

W/N

In general - good to hear lightning.

Now, I agree, back to the topic (although keil may want to respond, I'll leave that to him).



Well, most of people's posts are rather opinionated, and just assessing the new skills from their own perspectives - but to add to suiraCLAW's statement;

Quote:
Originally Posted by suiraCLAW
What if you combine a mesmer with physical instability and a cover hex with a ranger with practice stance + choking gas? (looks like constant knockdown...) Well, not really, as choking gas only interrupts spells - but in general, the theme you suggest is viable - although only in a 4v4 situation (hexes will be very hard to get through in 8v8, thanks to the other wonderful mesmer elite we all know and love - or love to hate as it may be).

It would be more along the lines of the ranger just hitting punishing, distracting and savage to keep the enemy down - but then, what’s the point of wasting two people when you can simply have Thunderclap?

You can, however, use the ranger to cast the hex in the first place, I guess - something we'll prob. see a lot of in random arenas soon enough.

The build is a possibility more than a definite (mainly due to energy problems on the ranger's side - although psychic is in itself 5 energy, it's attributes taking away rangers' ones and the cost of the interrupts will deplete the ranger).

However, a mesmer and one or two hammer warriors would be highly proficient. Dwarven battlestance + psychic instability + "On your knees!" can be kept up indefinitely upon one target - or switched between targets - as seen fit due to the warriors' high damage output and ability to use wild/irresistible blow during the duration of a defensive stance/enchantments to then continue to interrupt/knockdown the target.

However, I have the feeling that "On your knees!" will be nurfed (shield bash + this + glads = stupidtankernoobfavebuild - not to mention all the other pvp possibilities, namely bulls charge, on your knees).

byteme!

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Every time you stop attacking to cast... you lose 42 damage from IW. Yes using IoR would increase damage output significantly (its something like 41 at 12~ illusion, and -4 degen). However, be reminded you require 16 energy every 10 seconds to maintain your enchantments, and constantly casting IoR would play merry hell once the number of foes you faced was reduced.



This is a factions skill discussion thread... have you read the skill Quivering Blade? +42 for 4 strikes, and combined with plague touch for a capability to daze and the option for an ias stance, I think that slaughters battle rage + galrath or executioner's.

In any case, warriors aren't used with blackout because it's simply more effective on other characters that don't lose all their adren. One of your chars is going to be down for 5 seconds... but for warriors, the adrenaline loss makes it more significant. Battle Rage is far from an ideal solution, as you'd be a good deal more efficient just using heavy warrior attack skills and an ally's blackout. Doesn't matter if I have to stop and cast really. Not like I'm in a hurry to get somewhere when I'm farming solo. I've done 55 with mesmer before they nerfed griffons. I know it's not exactly as fast as a Necro build but with IoR things should speed up significantly EVEN if I have to stop to cast it or other spells.

Yes energy may be a concern. It usually is when you are running low on enemies using 55. But remember there are always ways to work around this if you think it through. I mean I've done Mesmer 55 for quite some time with this very same build minus IoR so I don't see how impracticle this build can be. Just saying it can be done the it's not as difficult as you make it out to be. I'm talking from experience not from a head full of air.

1)Timing
2)Balthazar's Spirit
3)Remove Balthar's Spirit if you need the extra PIP
4)Switch to staff (assuming staff has a larger pool of energy)
5)Switching to a zealous modded weapon

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Aran and Lightning:

I hope you are enjoying your long-ass convos cause I just skipped everything you said.

Seriously, shorter posts... geez.

Mystic Memory

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

The Imperial Allegiance

Me/

Wow totally agree with above poster.

I mean I wouldnt have the patience to type all of that up.

Although I did read everything, because it was rather interesting.

On the new mesmer skills, I dont know what Anet was thinking when they made Lyssa's Balance so nooblet.