Second Lore Project: Clearing out the mist in the storyline

Hello everyone! A week is up since the last project ( First Lore Project: Factions Preview Event! ) was started...so as the scheme goes, a new one will now be introduced!

Before I start, I'd just like to say that all discussion and research on the previous project should still be continued as much as possible; the purpose of introducing a new project every week is simply to keep the forum flowing. If you feel it is too quick (or too slow ) feel free to express your thoughts by PMing me. I don't see any problem with the weekly system, but I am willing to take the views of others into consideration. Projects may be eventually 'wrapped up', but expect there to be several projects going on at once when we really get into this.

Enough of that! While still working on the old...there is a new task at hand!

The storyline of Guild Wars, the background to it, and the involvements of all the characters and races in the main plot, is shrouded with a dense mist. Throughout our adventures, we stepped past holes where information, detail or explanation was missing...and as we moved away, from these holes thick white gas spurted up into the atmospehere, joining with the mists. But once we finished our adventure...naturally, we turned back. And this is the situation right now: we look out into the mist, and feel the urge to clear it out. We stride forth into the mists with the information we have been given in our heads, and think about the information that we have not been given. And we try to draw our own conclusions, to reach compromises, to cover over the holes and drive out the mist that hangs over us.

In other words: there are so many missing details in the storyline and things to conclude now we have finished our adventure. These may include:

• Gaps in information about the involvement of races or particular characters
• Gaps in information as to what happens to specific races and characters whilst we stride on through Tyria
• Gaps in information in the procedure/contribution of missions and quests
• Gaps in information that lies in the background of the Guild Wars storyline (i.e. manual lore and events leading up to the beginning of the game)
• Missing details throughout the outline of the main plot
• Who was to blame for the troubled times that Tyria has been through? The Lich? The Gods themselves? Glint and her prophecy? Or something else? I have noticed in previous discussions of involvement of characters that it always seems to boil down to specific ones. But how much can each be blamed and if they had 'responsibilities', what were they?
• What are the exact links between those characters and races that were heavily involved in the story, such as the White Mantle, the Mursaat, the Lich, and Glint? Also, if and when they come together in the game, how do they react to each other?
• How many days/months/years has our adventure taken? What was the exact sequence of events? Timeline perhaps?

And more I'm sure.

So, let's discuss, research, put forward opinions, make our own conclusions, and then work together to reach compromises on all of these things. Good luck! Remember, information could be found inside and outside of Guild Wars (manual, internet - GuildWiki, etc.)!

And...we don't have to discuss the suggested subjects in any particular order!

If you have any written or pictorial evidence that may be useful here, post it up!

hi i just wanted to say that i am doing a school project which consists of me writing a novel. I've chosen to use Guild Wars as the base for my novel. It will include me seting up a journey for my main character and as the journey progresses, eventually 7 other members coming along. im really looking forward to this novel, but one of the hardships in me doing this is knowing the background and the MAIN plot to the storyline of Guildwars. I dont plan to use the exact plot, of course it needs to be my own work, but it will help me as well, if we all bring comments and evidence and the sort to this forum to help make that storyline more clear. I hope people get into this forum because i would really appeciate the technical help on the storyline so i can have a clearer picture of where i'll be taking this novel. thanks so much and get postin!

Kduv889

And don't forget the biggest mystery of them all, what happens to Gwen?

But in all seriousness yeah there is a good bit of plot holes in the lore/game that I hope are resolved sooner rather than later.

Found this on guildwars.com
Home > The World > Story

Timeline
The Mouvelian Calendar
The Mouvelian calendar (named after Grand Patriarch Mouvel, the first high priest of the Church of Dwayna) begins counting years from the moment the gods left Tyria. This event is known as the Exodus. Years before this date are labeled BE (Before the Exodus). Years after this date are AE (After the Exodus). Years prior to the year 1 AE count down, getting smaller as they get closer to the time of the Exodus (just as they do in the Gregorian calendar).

There are four seasons and 360 days in the Mouvelian year:
Season of the Zephyr (Air aligned) days 1-90
Season of the Phoenix (Flame aligned) days 91-180
Season of the Scion (Water aligned) days 181-270
Season of the Colossus (Earth aligned) days 271-360

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it also says that present day(i assume the point at which a new character reaches post-searing ascalon) is 1072 AE, being 1072 years after the Gods left Tyria.
One way to find certain seasons in game would be to look at what elemental skills the monsters use. I seem to remember that a lot of the time certain areas usually consisted of monsters using the same elements. For example, in Ascalon, gargoyles use air magic, and the charr use fire magic, this could mean that one spends about half a year in ascalon. This is just a guess, and there are regions where monsters use channel different elements, although i would exclude bosses from determining which element a region is aligned with.

I think the elements used is more enviroment based than time based - for example, the ice golems and stuff in the shiverpeaks probably dont pull out their fire hats when the Season of the Phenix rolls round.

Was the Charr invasion ever halted? Did the Ascalonians win, meaning the expetition to kyrta was meaningless? Or are the Charr and Ascalon still fighting?

I didn't feel that the titan quest answered any of those questions. It just sorta ended. Not really a resolution.

The ending of the Hell's Precipice mission has Glint saying that it is the "Season of the Scion". So the story ends in the Season of the Scion. Now, to work out when it starts.

It remains if the Charr are still persistent enough to fight Ascalon, despite their Gods' defeat.

I would reckon that Kryta is the most stable kingdom at this time. Their generosity with settlements, and rebuilding of the Old Order are all going smoothly. If any white mantle resistance remain, it is probably not a force so powerful that it would be any threat.

The idea of the seasons makes pretty good sense.

Air Gargoyles
Flame-Wielding Charr
Ice Golems/Other Shiverpeak Denizens
Maguuma Jungle

That really leaves the undead out, but they're pretty well-rounded in skills, due to the fact they were once humans, so I don't think the environment has much of a control on their powers.

Gwen's fate is a neverending mystery...if we wanted to ponder that, we would open another thread.

A rough timeline...

Pre-Searing: One day.
Post-Searing: Half a year, perhaps a few months at the least.
Northern Shiverpeaks: A week, maybe two. It's hard to decide how the refugees fared, for we were not really in the same situations as they were - we were out killing things.
Kryta: A few weeks? The time spent relaxing was very short-lived.
Maguuma Jungle: I have no idea here...perhaps a whole month or more, seeing how the mantle had formulated numerous plans (all those White Mantle Wrath quests), and we seem to have spent enough time for Evennia and Saidra to really trust us.
Crystal Desert: Some time...weeks, maybe months. It's really hard to decide, for the Shining Blade npcs act as if you haven't seen you in ages, but if it was truly months, you think Evennia and Saidra would have been captured and killed some time ago - unless the Blade were really good at evading the Mantle.
Southern Shiverpeaks: A few weeks.
Ring Of Fire: Mere days.

The Titans must have spread across Tyria over a matter of weeks. Surely they could not populate the world in mere seconds after completing Abaddon's Mouth.

Right,

I think the topic of the seasons, and the timeline, would be a good thing to start on. I think Eldin's summary is pretty accurate, and I wouldn't really say anything very different to that myself.
The idea of the adventure advancing through the seasons interests me...however, it doesn't seem to cover everything. It doesn't seem right that we are in fiery Hell's Precipice in the Season of the Scion, the water season...
But those other ones match. Could have meaning, could not.

I also think that SnipiousMax's mention of what is going on in Ascalon with the Charr, and leading on to other things about what has happened to the world while we have moved on, is something we should look at in detail. This is a subject that we don't have much evidence on and must draw our own conclusions based on opinion.

Feel free to dive into the other subjects I mentioned in the first post, though. There's a lot to cover and it will take a good deal of discussion to establish final compromises on all these areas.

kduv889: I hope the conclusions we make in this thread will help you with your novel. Though, feel free to help us make those conclusions

If you think that we had part in establishing the Henge, then I imagine we were in the Jungle for quite some time.

I imagine the trip through the Siverpeaks lasting longer than a week or two. Traveling with a large group of people is a very long hard and tedious process, I can't imagine they all made it in one week. And we were kinda following behind at some points, and going on ahead at some points. So we'd be traveling back and forth along the line.

I also think that our time in the crytsal desert was bit longer, a couple of months to a year. It was a time for much soul searching, preperation, training, etc. And the Shining Blade are essentially Guerillas, so it would take the White Mantle some time to track them all down. And being that they are leaders, the would have held Evennia and Saidra for some time, hoping to squeeze information from them.

I do agree that our time in Southern Shiverpeaks and Ring of Fire were brief, we were kinda a catalyst for big changes, but the fight had be going on for quite awhile when we arrived.

I've only done the titan set of quests once. Were the Char being controled by the titans in the last quest of the series? Remember the level 25+ char that you have to kill on the way to the Titan Source? So maybe the Char break and Run as we kill the titans?

Another thing that I've wondered about. If the Char caused the searing...Why didn't they just keep 'searing' Ascalon till it was a smoldering heap? Did a similar event happen in Orr (homeland of the "Vizer")? Is the lich the one that gave this power to the Char?

The Charr worship the Titans as their Gods. The Titans did not really "control" them, but as their Gods, they pretty much were under their control anyway.

I still believe the searing was created ONLY to weaken Ascalon (what's the fun in terrorizing a kingdom if it's already completely obliterated?), and to drive the Chosen through the Shiverpeaks, Kryta, etc until they eventually unleash the Titans, as said by the prophecy.

I think the Titans gave the Charr the power to start the searing, so that they could thusly drive the Chosen out to free the Titans. The Lich does not really care for the Charr, he simply wants the Titans so he can rule Tyria. However, since he commands the Titans, that command the Charr, he does command the Charr in the process.

Orr was destroyed by the Cataclysm. When the Charr were at the gate to Arah, the Holy City, Vizier Khilbron unleashed dark magic from one of the forbidden scrolls, destroying the entire kingdom, blasting a major faction of it into the sea, destroying both the Orrians and the Charr, and such dark magic was so powerful it brought the Orrians back as undead. We still do not know of Khilbron accidentally started the Cataclysm in desperation to save his kingdom, or if he had been planning this for some time, so that he could become a Lich and command an army of undead.

The goal of the searing was to weaken/destroy Ascalon, and to continue down south to Orr. The Charr had no hidden agenda. They wanted to conquer the human nations/Tyria. Period.

The titans have been safely locked away behind the door of Komali for centuries/Millenia, there was no way for them to help the Charr. The searing was caused by something else. A bloodstone in Charr territory maybe?

I see no reason at all to assume Khilbron was a bad man. It was not stated or even hinted ANYWHERE that he was like "Yeah, I'm a vizier, and due to RPG stereotyping I am therefor evil, so I'm just gonna blow up Orr and conquer all of Tyria". The Lore discribes Khilbron as a man loyal to king and country, using the lost scrolls as an act of desperation to save his homeland.

wait...so how and when did the Vizier become the Undead Lich?

and i think the story of the game was much longer than half year

and so the charr invasion was related to the lich the whole time?

It'd be super interesting if it was! Just think, Vizier finds the scrolls, gives the Charr the power to start the searing to drive the chosen into the prophecy and to give himself an excuse to use the scrolls to make an undead army. So the Lich would have a lot more puppets than was apparent. But of course that's making a bunch of leaps.

Another big question. The Mursaat and the mantle where keeping the blood stones charged right, which were keeping the Titans from escaping....so does that mean they were good guys. (well as good as people who do human sacrifices can be)

Personally I would vote that it broke down like this (as far as the timeline goes)

Presearing can be ignored, since it takes place two years beforehand.

3 Months in Ascalon
2 Months to cross the Shiverpeaks
2 Months in kryta (just long enough to ensure the settlement was safe & join the mantle)
2 Months in the Maguuma
2 Months in the desert
3 weeks in the southern shiverpeaks
1 week in the ring of fire.

I think that should add up to a year, give or take. Why do I think it took exactally a year, you ask? Well, quite simple, because the release date of factions (which happens after Prophecies, as I understand) is exactally one year after the release date of GW:P. While this may seem to be unreleated, it makes perfect sense to my sleep deprived mind.

Oh! I found Gwen, btw, funny I didnt see her before as shes right out in the open, you can find her... *passes out from exaustion*

When glint mentions the season of scion (water) she could be refferring to its beginning as that would make sense having just defeated a bunch of burning thingies... so finishing at that season would make a lot of sense.

I'd assume the searing power was granted as a one time thing to the charr in order to catalyze the entire flameseeker prophecies. What is interesting is that ascalon hasnt fallen when you return to defeat the titans there. If this whole adventure does indeed take place over a whole year, then the charr's progress after we leave the ascalon region must be very slow for them to still not have toppled the entire place.

With that said maybe there is more to the charr's invasion. Because they were marching over numerous settlements in ascalon throughout the missions despite the minor victories we had. The capital city Rin was burning when we arrived from Nolani Academy... So if the vizier was helping them, did he stop helping them after driving the chosen to the shiverpeaks? Because the ndespite the charr's foothold in ascalon, they might have been held at bay for some time.

I think there are enough hints that the charr are not just working alone and must be supported by something. The effigies (sp?) of the titans found in some locations hint that they have a connection to the prophecies and maybe the vizier has used the titan form to act as a god to the charr.

There's certainly alot left to explain on the charr's invasion.

I agree that when Glint says the season of Scion it is quite significant. It follows the season of the Pheonix, the season of fire and if the season of Scion has just begun then that would mean the fight with the titans would have taken place in the season of fire. So we fight against fire in the season of fire but once it is defeated, it has been extinguised, significantly water puts out fire so the month of Scion begins to show that the fiery titans have been put out and defeated as such.

As for the char offensive whilst we were away the one thing absolutely no one has any real idea about is exactly what happened with the 'fabled horn' Stormcaller. Did it work, did it fail? What was it? Apparently it would extinguish the fires that powered the char, which it did, and Rurik declares char hunting season open showing that something has happened, however we are still forced to run. Could it be that the horn worked however the numbers of char are so overwhelming it makes no difference. This would make sense as it would make the char nearly powerless so that they could not topple the state of ascalon but a large beast will not just roll over dead and Ascalon is so underpowered they still fail to knock back the threat resulting in a stalemate. A draw that is until the Titans are released which restore power to the char resulting in the Titan Quest in ascalon.

Just an idea, but a large area of the story that needs to be discovered is what exactly the whole Hornblower sega was.

Ok first thing. I think there was alot of plot holes for a reason. During the game you only know what your character knows. So in that case your character wouldn't know if the lich was relly supplying the charr with the stuff they need to attack ascolon so the game wouldn't tell you thus its up to you to get ideas such as that.

Seconed. If i remember corectly (please tell me if i'm wrong) That Glint tells you when your in her cave that you were in the dessert for two years while your freinds (the shining blade) have been being hunted down by the white mantle.

Third. I do suport the idea Were the lich was behind the whole charr thing to herd the chosen out of ascolon and eventualy bring the titans but I also think it was Vizier's idea from the begining to turn himself into the lich and make orr into a undead army. The undead army would bring the white mantle who would start killing the chosen. He was hoping he could kill the chosen early on so he did not need the titans to rule tyria. His back up plan was the titans if the white mantle did not suceed in killing the chosen.

fourthly. Could the lich be behind the stone summit as well as charr?

lastly:Prince Rurik comes back as undead in the ring of fire. He still had his memory and his own thought, because when he is talking to you he says he dosen't want to attack try to kill you, but still he could not control his actions. So mabey all undead can still relate to their old human selfs but are being mind controlled by the cepter of orr. So mabey Vizier made the cepter before he became the lich to control the undead army when he made it but then lost it in the "explosion" that sunk orr.

"The Charr worship the Titans as their Gods. The Titans did not really "control" them, but as their Gods, they pretty much were under their control anyway"


The Charr actually worship mursatt. Take a look at the burning shrines they build all over ascalon. They look exactly like mursatt.

As for the mantle and mursatt keeping the titans under control, I don't think they were "good guys", just that they were planning on using the titans for their own agenda.

My favorite explanation so far: Goth Gwen

- Xeeron

Nice to see my page noticed (if you look at my user page, proof I'm "Eldin"). That makes you wonder how Goth Gwen jumps from being a Kurzick Child in the Kurzick Settlement to a Luxon Child in the Luxon Settlement so quickly. Then again, she does bear unspeakable power.

Eomer - The effigies look just like Titans. Do you have a screenshot of these mursaat shrines? Also, the Charr worship the Titans/Fire. Mursaat are mainly based on air magic, making it an even slimmer chance for them to be the ones the Charr worship.

The Mursaat know of the prophecy, that says that their race will meet their doom at the hands of the Titans and Chosen. Thusly, they command their worshippers, the White Mantle to not only kill the Chosen to prevent them from freeing the Titans, but also, the souls are channeled into the Soul Batteries, that help keep the Door of Komalie closed (apparently, the door may need a constant stream of souls...you kill the Lich because he is so powerful that his soul is the equivalent of murdering hundreds of thousands of chosen).

I think this is how the time thing went. (I based this on the fact that we did speand more time doing each thing. In the middle ages to move your units across your contry would take a month. With fighting the whole way there as we are It would take much longer. Not to metion the many side tracks that we needed to do along the way.)

Per-searing ascolon-1 day

2 years pass when you return from one of ruriks vangraurds patrols.

Post searing ascolon-you are battleing charr right away on your scouting mission north of the wall. After the northern wall is taken all your units must regroup at fort ranik (witch would take some time with charr everywere). Then you go on the offencive and retake the wall. After that you need to go farther north and start attacking and retaking all the land that was lost + citys like rin. (In middle ages attacking and capturing towns took almost 3 months and casltes almost 6 months. so it would have taken longer than you could play in the game.) So id say post-searing ascolon took about 6 months.

north shiverpeaks When you arive at yaks bend id say it took about to weeks for everyone to arive there. Mostly because of getting suplys ready would be a little hard in the shape ascolon is in. Then getting everyone and everything there saftly would be some painsteaking work. Getting across the shiverpeaks would also take a lota bita time. You have to mone about 200 people across the moutain ranges while being attacked by stone summit. There were no big breaks between dwarfen cities so when ever the ascolon people would like to take some time off of hicking. By the time you make it to lions arch it would have been at least 4 months mabey 5.

north Kryta Not much time was spent here. Just finish escorting the refugies then do as the mantle tells you to do. Mabey a month before being sent into the manguuma jungle to chase the shinning blade.

Manguuma jungle This is were the majority to the war is fought and as said before that the mantle had to formulate many plans and for Evennia and Saidra to trust you enough for the ceptor of orr. so mabey 4-5 months.

South kryta The only time spent hear was just enough time to formulate a plan then hit and run with the ceptor of orr.

Around one month spent on the boat it was a long way to the dessert so it may take longer

Dessert This is were the most time was spent To acsend is a big thing. If two races failed and there entire races (elonians and the forgotten) It would take much longer for us to do it. Then to get to glint id say two years. also glint mensions it in her cave that it was around two years.

south shiver peaksYou come you kill then you save your shining blade freinds. But after that you need to repay the dwarfs for helping the refugies over the mountains. as I said be for castle seiges took about 6 months in medival times and thats what thunderhead is a caslte. Although thunder head I thing would have taken 6 months but still around 3. So all that together around 5 months hear.

ring of fire(no not the song)only a few days. There was little time spent planning and once you hit the beached of the mission ring of fire its one steady battle all the way through. In real life there would be no breaks through out that battle. and scince your a few peeps not a army you can sneak around and wouldn't need to bash down the main gate and stuff.


from the beginng of the game-4 years and 11 months
from post searing-2 years 11 months

absolutely! the facts on the seasons is already a great step in making the novel more realistic and not so much a fantasy put together in a game format lol. keep em comin guys, i really like how its turning out!
Kduv889

Where do you people get the "Mursaat are in league with Khilbron" and "Charr Worship Mursaat" ideas?

If the Charr worshipped Mursaat, why do the Titans kill them? I heard you can see Mursaat corpses at some point in Last Day.

Let me convey this to you using simple math:

Prophecy = "The Chosen will free the Titans."

Mursaat + Titans = Mursaat go bye bye.

Mantle Worship Mursaat + Mursaat = "Kill the Chosen so we don't have to fear the Titans being freed."

Khilbron + Scepter = I just want an army of Titans to rule the world with. Nothing more, nothing less.

Seers = We hate Mursaat. We just do. We do not care what happens with the Titans. We just want them dead!
---
And where are these Mursaat shrines you speak of? While going through The Breach I found this:



Sure, it looks a bit like a Mursaat, but could that not just be some glyph or something?
---
Back on topic of seasons, perhaps the Bloodstone provides a natural resistance towards the natural flow of the elements over the passage of the year? The Volcano was going to erupt at the end of Hell's I believe simply because of killing the Lich. The Soul Batteries overflowed from such a powerful soul (Lichie's soul), or the stream of Titans being cut off so suddenly simply caused a massive shock within the Door of Komalie, which also spurred on an eruption.

I think they are supposed to represent a mock version of Dwana, look the the images side-by-side, you will know whayt i mean. It seems like charr to desecrate their opponent's gods.

Ah, possible. Mursaat tentacles are to sticks, but at the same time, and a bit more ethically, Dwayna's wings are to sticks. That's a very good theory about desecrating the Old Gods, djengo.

Acording to Eldin's reasoning, the Charr do not worship Dwayna because Dwayna is the patron of Air magic, and Charr worship only fire.

They're probably Mursaat. What the hell else would they be? Someone at Gwonline posed the idea that it could be the Lich, but the Lich did not exist prior to the cataclysm.

I'm saying that the charr are burning mock statues as some kind of phycological warfare with the humans, sure they worship fire, but it might be a symbol that the charr think their fire will eventually consume all. ionno bout you, but i got alot of meaning out of those things (btw, i just got into this posting thing, that one b4 was my first post, ever!)

<< Eldin
And where are these Mursaat shrines you speak of? While going through The Breach I found this:



Sure, it looks a bit like a Mursaat, but could that not just be some glyph or something?



-------
<< Kduv889
The shrines i thought they were talking of where the red ones that are in the renditch Courthouse. North of the Nolani academy. try looking there. there are 4 or 5 shrines that are the same format of the ones you see in the Fire Islands, and the southern shiverpeaks.

I think that the shifty-shiny stone things are just there to be pretty. wouldn't sombody in town have somthing to say like "gee, i wonder what those strange stones that were never here before are doing here". Maybe every little thing does not have storyline significance, maybe the designers just wanted to use the shifty shinyness effect somewhere...

If you wana know what happens to gwen this explans it in a cosmic sorta way. Make your own conclusion.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...s+gwen&pl=true

Personally, my vote on timelines is way shorter than most others, in the weeks length or so.

Assuming that paces (and times) in game are to scale, one would suggest that just running (with no enemies to fight, but still at a faster pace) would take only a couple hours. Even in the best of shape, this would indicate something of a marathon pace, and maybe 20-30 miles from Ascalon City to Ventari's Refuge... Even at a sprinters pace we're not talking hundreds of miles... Even if times aren't to scale, the assumption works well enough with paces to be within reasonable accuracy. Then you realize that Jiaju Tai in Lion's Arch says that only the greatest sailors dare journey to Cantha...

Glint says your friends won't last the night when you meet her, so you've got less than a day to finish the Ice Caves of Sorrow after getting to Droknar's Forge...

When the Deldrimor Dwarves in the Northern Shiverpeaks say your people (ascalonian refugees) won't last the night in the mountains, sounds to me like at most you can have a few nights in the main towns, but you're not able to spend time camping between each of them. Maybe lots of time staying in the towns preparing for the next step, but if you have to stay in Grooble's Gulch for the night, your people don't seem to be able to handle the higher altitudes between Yak's Bend (or at least the town before Maladar's Fort - Borlis Pass beginning outpost) and Grooble's Gulch too well.

On the other hand, supposedly Rurik headed out to meet with the Deldrimor King in Maladar's Fort three days before you head out! So at least three days pass between the end of Nolani and the beginning of the Borlis Pass mission, probably more.

I can't make them all reconcile without throwing away some of the implied stuff, or sticking with long stops in towns, or some other similar explanation.

And how big is a city here? We're not talking millions, after all, none of the major cities in the middle ages was in the millions. Thousands maybe, millions no (Paris, largest western city in middle ages: quarter million before the black plague). But are we talking tens of thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? Maybe just thousands? I'd guess maybe 10-100 thousand, thats small enough to be really worried about a couple thousand Charr if you think Charr > Human (like Rurik might be presumed to think) and large enough to not worry too much if you think Human > Charr (e.g. Adelbern).

I'm not too sure on how large Ascalon, the Charr army, etc. really was. An army of "many thousand" from the scene at the end of Nolani? Doesn't sound like all that large of an army in middle ages terms. For reference, the Battle of Agincourt had 20-40 thousand troops between the two sides.

I'm starting to lean towards either a small world here, or we have shrunk the farm land down a lot (and/or found a way to be really really productive). Its obviously not realistic in all senses.

I prefer to consider Ascalon, Kryta, Orr and such more like states rather than countries or like counties in England. They have their cities and are reasonably large but wouldn't take you more than a couple of days on foot to cross. Also Tyria is only 1 continent not an entire world so its not like trekking round the world, Tyria itself could perhaps be the size of a single country and with all the people you would have to take with you in the mountains Ruriks 3 day journey would make sense. It really depends on what scale Tyria is on.

Also about the statues, if you do the Fires in the Wherever quests where you have to go kill the flame bearers there is no doubting that the staues they burn there are in fact the titans, especially the one that takes place to the east of Ruins of Surmia. So I agree that the statue shown above may just be a thing to deface the old gods. Also the char are relatively dumb beasts and the mursaat I feel would be almost above them as the char are little more than animals and would in my opinion be more likely to attack mursaat than worship them.

This really clears up that "Titan" and "Lich" stuff, i like the lich guy's pants before he goes all... "lvl 30 undead boss that randomly teleports you into lava" (whom my ele {Garr the Closet Boy} finished off with only one monk {who for some unknown reason, had no res...} and himself {used sig} with his badnezz Water Magic) on your ass. I noticed that my water majic owned in that mission, that because things there are fire? well... i was doing 138dmg w/ ice spear and kept spinal shivers on him... so interpret that as you want. i feel this might open some conversations

(3)

Alright, lots of interesting stuff has been brought up while I've not been here.

The idea of us going through the seasons intrigues me, but...
When you put together the idea of our adventure lasting a year or so, and the order of the seasons, if we start with the fire season (while we're in Ascalon with the Charr) we do not get round to the water season by the end of the Ring of Fire missions. Also, if you go around the whole thing some seasons do not fit with the specific areas and their monsters. It's a brilliant idea, but needs some clarification to get it right - I might try to do that sometime soon. If it can be put together to make sense, then...great!

Concerning the burning wooden structures in the Charr lands...I'm not sure exactly what they are, but the idea of desecrating the old gods sounds good. The Charr definitely don't worship the Mursaat - if they did, surely Saul D'Alessio wouldn't have been able to use the power of the Mursaat to drive the Charr out of Kryta. The Charr are absolutely certainly worshippers of the flame, and the titans are their apparent gods.

I'm interested in the theory of the Vizier's involvement in the Charr invasion. It makes sense that he would make it happen to drive the Chosen out of Ascalon to send them on the path to free the titans. I think that could be discussed more, and along with it the Vizier's involvement in the rest of the plot.

Another thing that I think should be looked at is Glint and the Flameseeker Prophecies. How did all these characters including the Vizier and the Mursaat come to know about Glint's prophecy? Did she really tell them? And if so, what can be said about Glint's motivations?

I think the idea of Glint and the prophecies delves deep into Tyria's history. Glint was created by the gods as the first guardian of the world. But what does she do now? She sits in her cave, makes prophecies in which bad things happen, and tell others about the prophecies to make them happen! Yes, of course she's very clever to think it all through, but...what kind of guardian is she? And did the gods have anything to do with her actions?

And of course, this links to the whole 'Who is to blame for all the bad things?' question that I mentioned in the first post of this thread. Was it just the Vizier for being pure evil? Was it Glint for not guarding the world and making her prophecies? Or was it the gods for all the problems they left behind in the world?

I'd like to announce here that there will be no new project this week, as this one covers such a large area and I think a good deal of effort should be put into it.

However, Sentao Nugra presented the idea to me of finding the words of the Flameseeker Prophecies in-game...I think that is a good suggestion. I'm sure we can remember various mentions during missions, but we have not recorded exactly what they were. It would be great to piece together the prophecies in their entirety, so we could discuss them further and in more detail in the future. If anyone is interested in trying to do this, let me know.

Also, I think there is a lot of evidence that we can bring in here from in-game that would help in the discussion. Keep looking out for things, and keep the discussion and thoughts coming. Also, be sure to look up things in the lore manual, and elsewhere!

It's good to see lots of interest here, so keep it up. Let's really clear out these mists and cover over the plot holes in the storyline!

The Flameseeker Prophecies are quite vague. What we know is that they are about someone unleashing the Titans on the world. The few who may know the exact prophecy, or at least more of it than we do:

-Glint
-Meerak The Shouter/Scribe
-The Mursaat
-The White Mantle (surely their masters would tell them of this prophecy that calls for the need to kill the Chosen?)
-The Charr (if the Titans told them, or they found out on their own)
-The Lich
-The Seers

I believe the prophecy INTENDED for the Titans to be freed and the Chosen to stop them...the prophecy intended the players to be tricked by Khilbron...etc. I believe one statement that Meerak says is, "Do not trust the treacherous man...we have been warned!"

This is no doubt Khilbron...maybe Markis as a secondary possibility. Glint knows she must not interfere, and that time will unravel itself.

I think that the flameseeker proficies (w/e, i dun feel like lookin it up) are a kind of purging. in on itself it mostly united Ascalon and Kryta (supposing the Ascalonian king stops being a fatheaded moron and allies with those who offer aliances). made it so that souls did not need to be sacrificed to the gate thing. killed the evil lich guy (I was so mad, so i stabbed him w/ big peices of ice, when we waent all... bad). generally... the proficies did alot more good for tyria that bad; really, i plan to nmake a new character and go through the storyline, while plotting things i hear and see on some web or somthing (and then later i can hand it in as a school project{we always do that stuff}so, everyone wins (v`-')d (i hate my L.A teacher, he treats you like ur 10... i wanna do to him what i did to the vizer...) , i will submit the results of this project

I'm not sure anyone in the whole game actually knows the whole stroy about the prophecies or the prophecy must only be half the story that everyone knows. I believe that the prophecy consists of the story that the chosen will unleash the titans, however that is about as much as anyone knows, no one seems to know that the chosen will be the ones to stop it again. If the Lich knew we would have stopped the titans then surely he would have done something about it, and maybe Glint would have told us, or did Glint know the whole picture that maybe the Lich didn't. In my mind I always think the prophecy was about us saving the day in the end rather than the negative aspect of nearly causing the end of Tyria. So it is a mystery to what the prophecy actually says and who in the game knows the whole story.

It is possible the prophecy had more to do with Tyria, and not just the Titan aspect. Meerak speaks of Rurik being "doomed", and such, so perhaps it tells the tale of our entire journey, or at least much of it?

UPDATE: I just did Hell's with some guildies on my warrior. Quoting Glint, "Long into the Season of the Scion, Tyria is revived again." However, is "long into" now (when we kill the Lich), or after we finish The Titan Source (last titan quest)? No real phrases in that sentence suggest what period of time particularly. I'm going to run around Diessa Lowlands with my wammo and see if I can find any interesting information on the Charr/Titans. It seems to be the most practical area to search for information regarding Charr Culture.

I actually wrote up a story that fills in my versions of the details http://www.theamazonbasin.com/forums...showtopic=8178
I noticed the the mursaat had no backstory to them, so figured I'd add some, as well as writing something from a different point of view.


My take on these:

The seasons simply are equivalent to spring, summer, fall, and winter, the "season of (blank)" and elements were just added to give it a fancy air.

It's never really said what makes the mursaat evil besides killing the chosen. I wonder if the idea is that some mursaat survive, or if they were all at the ring of fire and got annihilated, or if there never really was a plan for them. I do wonder when the mursaat appeared, and what they were doing beforehand.

The dwarves I assume were staying out of the guild wars as they were occuring, and were trading with all the human groups.

As for timing, I figure the desert part took several months, and the jungle part took awhile as well, but the other parts took about as much time as implied in dialogue and such.

The searing seemed disigned to get the charr across the wall, nothing more. My guess is that they easily ran through ascalon after breaking through the wall, but than switched focus to Orr and Kryta, and lost enough of their army in those fights that the ascalons were able to recapture territory and defend themselves o.k. afterwards. The searing itself seems like a one time thing, that probably took lots of planning and preperation, so the charr are unlikely to repeat it for a long time. It would fit with the pattern of the charr waiting awhile, than launching invasions, and the seering was big enough to require a lot of work and materials to do.

It could make sense that Khilbron could have helped the charr to cet of the prophecy, since he does similar things throughout the story, though I personally see it as happening as described, with the Vizier trying to save Orr and goofing up, with the magic doing something with his mind to turn him into a twisted, evil character.