Remove attribute refunds

I love the concept of being able to change your character around at any point in time, no worry about "ruining" your character like so many other games out there (*cough*Diablo II*cough*). You can swap skills in and out and tweak your attributes. However, due to the attribute refund system, all you can do is "tweak" your attributes, not change them freely like you can skills.

I understand why the refund system is in place. People would drop/raise attributes so they can do more damage with whichever skill they're going to use next. If I want to take my RP character out and play with IW for a while, I have to wait for my attribute refunds to come back before I can consider going back into the PvP arenas as a domination specialist.

As my ranger, I walked my roommate from Droknar's Forge to most of the way to Copperhammer Mines (got to the zone connecting to the mines before we got too much DP to continue). We killed everything along the way, and it took that long to get ~15 attribute refunds back. This is not my idea of fun. I had been using the character to walk my roommate through missions, which I needed to tweak my attributes for, and I didn't get refunds then, either, due to the 0 exp for low level stuff. You don't get refunds in PvP anymore with the recent update, causing RP characters to do more monster bashing and PvP characters to delete if they want to change their stats.

What I suggest is absolute freedom to change attributes as you please in town, no penalty, no "refunds" necessary, just like skills. Once outside of town, attributes should only be able to increase to accommodate people who've leveled.

Well, after you ascend you can get all your points back by changing your secondary (unless they changed this).

perhaps they could make it like your skill sets and allow you to change around your attributes only in town. This would prevent shifting the points around per situation while out in the feild.

Or as another alternative, maybe they could just make the attribute refunds stronger or slightly easier to regain...

Actually, if you run out of refunds, just run around and get experience. You'll get them all back. Then rinse and repeat when you run out the next time.

Yeah... It really isn't that bad. In alot of games .:Hint: WoW:. You have to pay small fortunes to change your "attributes"

I have no problems with the current system for refunds. Whenever I need to restock points, I do a little Fissure and the points come back in a flash and since we have the Favor here in "America" reasonably often, that's no problem.

However, the Idea of changing points in town seems pretty good to me.

Perhaps you missed what he said...

"I didn't get refunds then, either, due to the 0 exp for low level stuff. You don't get refunds in PvP anymore with the recent update, causing RP characters to do more monster bashing and PvP characters to delete if they want to change their stats."

See the problem is once you get to level 20 getting enough exp to get you 20 refund points can take quite a long time. Time that one would rather spend playing PvP or helping out a low lvl guildmate (which you dont get exp for cuz your lvl is so high). Also if you have made a PvP character since the new faction update you quickly realize that there is no experimenting with them at all cuz once you change your build 1 time, maybe 2 times at most, you can never get your refund points back.

Im not sure I agree totaly with doing away with the refund point system but perhaps they could implement sorta the same thing with exp points for faction...however many exp = 1 refund point the same faction points = 1 refund point.

Why not just make it like skills where you can only modify your attributes while in a city. Remove refund points alltogether.

Cymmina's concern is the accumulation of refund points to alter atributes in her PRIMARY profession.

Modifying secondary profession attributes is easy, just change the professions in the desert from the NPC. They replenish immediately so its basically free.

your primary attribute distribution is another story. You must spend refund points to alter and due to the state of the game now, she has a valid point.

This is not a PvE issue at all, but a PvP one.

People have been saying this for a long time now. It's really the most logical yet unaddressed issue that I can think of in Guild Wars (other important things at least have been promised for future updates). Plenty of benefit to players, barely any (id any) negative impact on the game play structure. I made this thread the day of the last update:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=26932

Others exist on the same subject. Full 24-point refund in towns please.

Perhaps I did. But as I have 2 level 20's (not a great feat, but I do have them), I switch their attributes around regularly. I have *never* had a problem with attribute refunds, because when I run out, I go find something that gives me the number of attributes that I need. Usually a lot of somethings to be honest. But I find them. Additionally, when you "level" you get all of your refunds back. I guess I worry less about such things, and happen to agree with the limitation.

Oh my...another person whos whining about something. *sigh* First, for pvp, you should use a PVP character, so its easier for your attribute points. Second, you should choose a specific path you wish to use (-In your case, Illusion or Domination-). If you can't choose either, then don't use a Mesmer. Third, your thread topic is WAY off since your discussing about YOUR problem. (-FYI don't say anything about my post-)

i'm having the same problem with my two PvE characters that i made for unlocking skills and PvP. Since i only PvP with them other than capping skills every now and then for my PvP characters, There is no way for me to get refund points back. Unless i wanted to do a little PvE again, which i didnt get this game to do. So, in other words i cant use them for anything now except capping skills, and when that's done or i've used all my skill points they are worthless to me. Now that wouldnt be so bad except for the time i put into them.

anyway yes they need to bring back exp in pvp, or somehow give refund points in pvp, or just get rid of the refund points all together.

Perhaps buying experience or refund points with faction? Not that faction is in high supply, but it might be a good compromise.

I'm sorry but I do not agree with this idea. It really doesnt take that long at all to rebuild your attribute points (I change my attributes around all the time).

Even if getting all refund points back were trivially easy, what is the POINT of it? Why can't I switch attributes when I switch skills? (I agree with the town-only notion). What purpose is served by ANY restriction on refunds?

Someone correct me if I am wrong but if you have a character in PvE only to Cap Skills and whatnot, you probably will not have to work around the attributes very much and if you have a PvP only character and you don't like the build, all you have to do is to delete it and create a new one, isn't that right?

The problem seems to do with people who have PvE characters and want to use them in PvP as well but you can always create a PvP only character and keep deleting and creating new ones until you find a build that you like.

It could be that I just fail to see the big problem here but if you like PvE and you need to rework your numbers, all you will have to do is playing for a while until you have the points back again and that should be fun for the more PvE oriented players since that's the reason they bought the game.

PvE is not really that hard and even if you screw up with a build (which is very hard to do), you can always make something work until you can change it again and let's face it, 24 Refund points is quite a bit.

ya, for some it doesnt matter cause they are killing for exp all the time anyway... so they are worthless. and for others they just get in the way.. forcing them do spend time doing something they dont really want to. and it can take some time too.

Boom. Problem solved. Hell, even every one or two kills in PvP nets you a refund point.

yes! that sounds like the best answer to me too. :P now hopefully the can fix this soon

Remove the refund points, I hate them!

I think its good to have refund point, but . . . .
like they say, I want to gain a refund points while i play PvP. 1 faction = 1 refund seems good.

Keep em, One of the things that would hurt PvE is no refund system, reason being is say you want to be an air mage, not going to happen at the start of a new character, they way PvE comes across the skill types demands a system to be able to change your attributes by there very design.

During the beta's seeing what would of ended up a point system thats' like diablo II skill tree system was something that almost turned me off from the game until refund points were implemented in the later beta's.

I don't see a problem with making it so you can change up attributes in town for free. Your still stuck the way you are in the wild and in battle. So who cares if you have to gain X amount of xp before you can change up again. The refund system seems silly to me.

Bing Bing Bing.

The Toast God has spoken...you WILL listen.

/sign, but: While in city, you get unlimited refunds. But while outside, 24 would be the max. This way it would work with the skill changing as well.

That works for me. I just find the refund to be unnessisary.

mmmm toast.

but anyway i totally agree i dont see a real reason for the refund points to not come back in towns.

I made a post on this yesterday. I don't think many people really grasp the problem at hand. Granted you can make PvP characters and delete them. Thats great! However if you are playing arenas in PvE (i.e you are a casual PvP'er) it is a different matter. You can't delete your character and sometimes you want to changes your attribs to try out a new tactic.

So what do you do?

Well say you've got 24 refund points and you want to do a complete overhaul of your character because you're PvE is not up to scratch in arena e.g you are playing death necro. You spend all your points and join up with a team and play.

After playing a few games you decide you want to change some attribs and whats this?

Oh dear zero refund points.

Now what?

Oh I've got to go out and play several missions to get XP to get my refund points back. How long will that take? About 1 hour. Now for anyone who questions this, I have played mines of Moladune and killed everything and only got 16 refund points. That took over an hour. And yeah if you play on FoW or UW you get them all back. However if you're European then you'll know how difficult this is. Also you have to play for around 3 hours. I only want refund points!!!!

So After an hour I go back to PvP and change skills, still not happy. Oh now I got to spend another hour getting points back. I mean come on!!!! This game is meant to be based on skills, the manipulation of these skills and about co-ordianted game play. By not having refund points in Arena's the message everyones getting is you should stick with you're character and not experiment and keep to the skills you have. And this attitude does not make for a good player.

Now I know some of you will be saying why don't you make a PvP only character. Well as I mentioned before I'm a reasonably casual gamer and I feel that arenas suit my style of playing. It is not too serious. I get the impression that most who play PvP only are hardcore players and expect a lot from others and this is not for me.

So in conclusion why is there no system implemented that allows you to gain XP in PvE areanas. It is not an unreasonable request and I'm not saying that points should be easy to come by. What I am saying is that these points should be available whilst playing arena and not just in the PvE world.

is there anybody here who DOESNT believe that this has been already brought to the devs attention by the people on the alpha/beta who feel exactly the same as you do?

they see also the same demands by a small group of people that post the same thing on every site they can hoping that it will suddenly change the devs long term plans

also a truly casual player will not be changing things around much but simply grabbing a template that strikes their fancy jump in, have some fun win or lose and then do something else

WE NEED AN ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF *CASUAL*

Casual implies 'being without ceremony or formalility i.e. relaxed'. Now Arena differs from PvP only in that there are end rewards which demonstrate your skills as a player. So from this we can state PvP only is a competion where a competition is 'the act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.' whilst arena is not. Competition is not synonomous with a relaxed attitude. Thus a competion is not a casual event. From this we can infer that PvP only is not casual whilst arena not meeting the criteria for competition is.

Exactly, this would solve all problems. Including the main problem they are trying to prevent in the first place, little uber geeks bringing a load of skills with them to a battle and changing thier attribute points mid battle as they see fit.

How many ways can it be said?

W/Mos, Mo/W, Ele/Mo..... well those that can farm can use the system the way it is.

I can not believe that they took the Exp out of the PvP areas, that was a shot in the nuts for people that play their PvE built characters in PvP. I thought part of the reason we could get spiffy armor and weapons was to show them off in PvE and PvP?????

Do you still get xp at the top level even though you cannot level any higher?

You still get xp, even if you are level 20. You need to be able to still get xp to be able to get the skill points, which require you to "level up" after you are already level 20.

I agree.

Refund points are counterproductive to what this game is about: skill, not time played. They're nothing but speedbumps in an otherwise smooth system. Get rid of them and allow infinite attribute changes in towns to bring the attribute system inline with the skill system.

Can I sign twice?

no refund means permanance to me.
like in diablo2. then people would be more careful what they spend points on.

they giv us too many refund, & they regenerate way too fast!

I know! It's ridiculous right? I mean look at this forum here! It's COMLPETELY filled with whining!!! People offering suggestions and opinions and whatnot! It's mad I tells ya'!

I think, for the sake of us all, you should go to all the threads here and stop the whining! You can do it! You've made a great start here! I believe in you!

I've yet to hear a (good) reason for having the refund points. And if there is a reason, why not set similar restraints on skill swaps? "Ooops, I can only swap 1 skill every X exp points, better be careful..."

Illogical. Allow infinite attribute shuffling in town, none in missions, just like skills.