The Dilemma

I understand the game is not out yet, and a lot of speculation and rumors have been going around. But my following argument is based soley on what I have seen in the FPE and in these new quests around Kryta. So first, I'd like to define the word "dilemma" for better understanding:

"a situation in which somebody must choose one of two or more unsatisfactory alternatives; a situation with unsatisfactory choices."--Encarta Dictionary: English(America)
rel. predicament, impasse, catch-22, tight spot.

This concept of warring factions really sucks in my opinion. Everyone I'm close to in this game feels this way also. Honestly, I hate both sides. The Kurzicks seem like a pale gothic version of the Puritans, and with the Luxon's Romantic/Transcendentalist vibe...both are very unappealing to me. They in part represent extreme opposites on the religious/political spectrum. I wish that A-Net had come up with different concepts for the two factions, many people cannot decide since neither side truly suits them.

What sucks ever more is the following. Our guild will be siding with the lovely Kurzicks, basically because it fits our guild's theme better, and the majority wanted to be part of a highly civilized and religious culture. After checking out a few of the Kurzick's towns, they're all dark and depressing. And so far, I have to say I like the look of the Luxons more than the Kurzicks (armor especially). So it's stupid second guessing myself simply because the armor appeals more to me on one side or another. Also, in siding with one faction, you will miss the content that the other side has to offer(such as armor skins). Yes, you can switch, but if you've spent your time and gold into building your guild around one side, switching to the other will be starting at ground zero.

So basically it seems that the game will force us to embrace one side in this pointless war based on hatred alone, whether we like it or not. It also seems that both sides fight each other for no reason other than the fact they hate each other. They probably have long forgotten why they started fighting in the first place, blinded by hatred. The Kurzicks say the Luxons are filthy and evil, and the Luxons say the Kurzicks are filthy and evil. So us we as players are forced to join in this fight, whether or not we feel it is just. Notice this screen:


I wish it was possible to play the game while saying "This is your war, not mine." But to access any content, you can't go around choosing that option with every NPC quest-giver.

So our point is that it is below us as players to be involved in a hatred-fed fued, and that it seems unfair that in choosing a faction, you miss out on whatever the other side has to offer. I know we can't expect ArenaNet to go and change it so that both the Luxons and Kurzicks are in perfect harmony, but we feel the need to express the dilemma we're facing. Thank you for considering this.

pfft, luxon propaganda to bring about peace...GO KURZIK!!!

in all seriousness, it would be nice to have a third side for mediation; like an unbiased traders union that sells weapons to both sides, but stays out of the fight, or something of the sort.

I agree, some sort of side that doesn't force you to scream "Die Luxons!!!11!"
A neutral trade union is an excellent idea. Then again...how about we turn against both sides, and drive them back to Cantha?
At least there's a degree of peace in Tyria, where the whole continent isn't dominated by prejudice and hatred (except my deep hatred for Tengu/Avicara). So I'll be hanging out in Tyria often after Factions comes out.

Edit: I have to leave for work now, so I apologize for not being able to continue this discussion for now. But I'll check back the next chance I get.

I think I've read in many posts around the GW Guru board that you're not locked down when you pick a faction, so it's possible to jump between the two sides and experience the content offered by both. I don't know how viable "faction-hopping" is, maybe you'd have to devote yourself to one for a long while before jumping the fence to really get anywhere, but from what we've seen so far it is possible.

As to the two sides being equally undesirable, I kind of find that refreshing (just in my opinion). The heroic fantasy genre is already full of polar "good vs. evil", so I think it's nice that ArenaNet decided to pit two factions who simply butter different sides of their bread (1000 points to whoever catches that reference first ) against each other. It's a lot closer to how things work in the real world, where who's right and who's wrong is often merely subjective.

I can see what you mean, though. While I like that the faction war isn't all black-and-white, I don't find either the Kurzicks or the Luxons to be people I'd like to be associated with. Those sick freaks at Anet really enjoy watching their players make tough choices, don't they? And an actual catalyst for this war might be nice, too; the "neither side remembers why they're fighting" angle has been used to death by now.

It was explained that you can jump from one side to the other eventually it will be harder to switch sides.

That will allow you to change when you want but it will take some time to switch.

Typical Kurzick fear of commitment, if you ask me. The OP is likely a Kurzick spy trying to sap the will of the Luxon people with this flower progaganda.

Seriously, without seeing where the story takes us (we know the sides have to unite against a common foe) it's a bit premature to hate because of the hate.

Well said both posts above. twicky and MSecorsky

Looks to me, from what I've seen so far, like there IS a neutral, mediating "side": The inhabitants of the Imperial City (including an Emperor, I assume) want to unite both the Luxons and the Kurzicks so Shiro can be defeated once and for all.

Now, I'm sure there's no way to actually ALLY with the Imperials, but still, I expect the city will provide some neutral merchants, territory, and such, for those who might not want to get as deeply involved in this "pointless" war which was started by those mindless Luxons who only know how to destroy what others create.

...

Sorry. I got a little carried away there. ^_^

Anyway, I noticed, for instance, that all the new PvP armors come in three flavors; Luxon, Kurzick, and Imperial.

Of course, I could just be completely wrong about everything. I won't know until the end of the month.

Yep the city side is a third faction thoughwhether we can join them seems to be up in the air. those are apparently the traders we see in LA and seem th emost rational of the lot.

so again just to second the above poster, I don't know about armors but at least lore wise there is one alternative.

Those crazy city dwellers! Kurzicks FTW

I have a chance to get on briefly here, so I'll try to make sense of what has been said. First off...

Gee, thanks...I'll try to take that as a joke...

And for the record, I by no means identify myself with either side, which includes the Kurzicks, just yet. My sole point is that I do not like the fact that we are forced to make a decision, one in which neither outcome is desirable (mirroring the definition explained earlier). If we do end up siding with the Kurzicks, it's not like I condone everything they're about, or that I'm happy with our decision. I intended this discussion to be from a standpoint of unbiased logic, and possibly to help me in making a final decision for our guild. So no, I'm no spy...

That pretty much sums up my feelings, very well said Stormfall.

You all have valid points, and we shall indeed see how the general feel of gameplay is affected by the two factions.

Yes, these are the Canthans - members of the third nation on the continent of Cantha. They regard the Kurzicks and the Luxons as vassal states.

From what I saw in the FPE, our chars were the Imperials, sent out to persuade one or the other side to join the fight. If we had been Kurzicks or Luxons, we would never have been allowed into both capitals.

This doesn't help the problem though, since it seems we will have to join one side or the other to persuade them to join the fight against Shiro. I don't see (so far) any way to go through the PvE plot and stay neutral.

When confounded by poor choices, choose the lesser of two evils.

Hmmm

Options

Kill all Luxons in settlement

Kill all Kurzicks in settlement.

Hmmmm lesser would be......

pssh, i cant answer everything. its up to you guys.

Buy a second copy of guild wars Factions. Then buy a second copy of Guild Wars Prophecies. There you go, both factions...

*OR just decide by which experience you enjoy more. For me it was the Luxons, because I cannot really play in dark areas when it is dim in the area my computer is (because there is no light directly overhead, it is offset by about 7 feet on the ceiling and it is a chandelier type of lamp).

as previously touched upon, your characters do remain largely neutral in the storyline, the little we did see of it in the fpe made it obvious we are there to gradually reunite the kurzick and luxon factions to combat the common threat of the afflicted etc.

The only "side-picking" invovled is with regard to the pvp element of the new dynamic battle field in factions, even some of those are less about killing the opposing faction and more about accomplishing your tasks (jade quarry et al) and as such there is no real reason to side with either unless you want to play these specifically and even then you dont have to roleplay it!

Your character can "belong" to the opposing faction of your guild with little problem, just spend your faction on the items and upgrades not on guild standing.

So, at the risk of sounding rude, I have to ask; Is this problem a matter of the stereotypical gamer-demographic's attitude that groups and authority are to be avoided at all costs, or is it you wanting to be handed a nice, clean, black-and-white choice with an obvious answer, or is it an actual roleplaying, in-character conundrum?

Frankly, the first two would just be equally sad. Only in cartoons are things that clear-cut, and being a rabid loner is just so... unattractive... To adults, at least.

So, I'm going to assume your problem is the third; In-character, you don't see any reason to fight for either side.

Okay. Why the heck should you?

No, seriously, you've been given no reason to like or hate either side... YET.

For me, it was easy. I have a character that I've known was half-Canthan since I first heard about Canthans, and when I played the FPE, it was like going home after a long time. I knew where she'd grown up the moment I saw it, and so I know what side she's on.

If I didn't have such a convenient backstory, though, I'd be in exactly the same position as you. I don't know these people. I haven't had the opportunity yet. I'm sure as heck not going to go to war for or against people I don't even know. I don't think the difference in leather overcoats versus patchwork pants is enough of a reason to commit genocide.

Don't worry, though. Factions starts you off in the Imperial City, and it looks HUGE. My guess is you'll have ample opportunity to see things about both sides. Sooner or later, something is sure to strike you as sympathetic or unbearable. At least, that's what the developers are hoping, I'm sure.

Until then, roleplay your character and do what you'd do, and if that means being neutral, then bide your time.

Or... if you're just a ronin-super-leet-lone-wolf-badass who was picked on in school and so doesn't want to join a group, get a grip and try to have fun for once. ^_^

Rayne, I'm in the opposite position. I want to go Kurzick, but it looks like my guild will be going Luxon. Since I've already got 10,000 Kurzick factions I did the Luxon quest on my characters.

For me the Kurzicks are a highly cultural society. They have an appreciation of music and art, and the 15k armour for the mesmers would look lovely on Luned.
IMO the Luxons seem more primative and barbaric, and I'm not much of a fan of the beach anyway I love forests though, and the gothic architecture is lovely and reminds me of when I was living in Spain.

I LIKE the idea of choosing sides, but what I don't like is the idea that our ALLIANCE will be able to choose the side with ZERO input from its members. Oh and having only ONE armour (not confirmed) when you have been placed in a side - eek - I seriously would quit my guild if I was stuck with Luxon armour for my mesmer.

Rhedd, I know that Luned is really the illegitmate daughter of a Kurzick noble kidnapped and taken to Ascalon to grow up all alone till her mesmerising powers were found, I knew that the moment I saw the 15k Kurzick armour

Will it be hard to switch? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not aware that it would be.

I find the whole faction concept fascinating. Even though it's just a game (albeit a damn fine game), some people are already becoming quite passionate about which side they will align with.

Oh! and Luxons rule all

Wouldn't it be interesting if you acquired a feature later in the game that "united" both sides and thereafter be able to use either faction's crafters and merchants.

Sure, neither side seems morally upstanding, and to join one side or the other, you sort of have to role-play being a bastard. But I'm OK with that. It is supposed to be a role-playing game after all.

Yes, that's pretty much the bottom line. Either way you go, you'll spill innocent blood (well not exactly "innocent"...). I guess up 'till now I've always been used to roleplaying the right and just side of things and staying out of pointless feuds. But that'll change. :/

I understand you, I do like the culture of the Kurzicks. I guess it's just the constant darkness that would get to me after a while. But from the perspective of a leader, it is indeed possible to just pick a side regardless of what everyone else in the guild may say. And that is downright wrong. I could see guilds splitting up simply over their views of the two factions. I tried to get input from all our members, but the general attitude was "Whatever, doesn't matter to me, it's your decision." Yeah..that's a lot of help. So I'll be going with what suits our theme, and whose culture interests our majority. So eventually we may feel better about allying ourselves with the Kurzicks. But at this point, where at least in my opinion all the negative aspects of each side are being made apparent, it's easy to feel apathetic about the upcoming expansion.

The only thing is... we've never been really good. [SPOLIERS]

We killed the Shining Blade before we knew they were good.

We helped the Lich King, before we knew who he was.

I'm sure there are other examples...

We don't know for sure yet how this will work. I expect that our characters can be a separate "faction" from our Alliance or Guild... we won't be forced to spend our faction for Luxon, for example. You could spend it for Kurzick Amber to get your armor. (Unless that somehow prevents you from playing in PvP Alliance events, which would be pretty lame).

EDIT:

Ok, thinking about this a bit more, this is how Amara justifies killing the Kurzicks: (of course, this is knowledge she doesn't have, but hey, no GM to call me on it!)

Kurzicks killed baby turtles. This is just sad. (Never mind little turtles grow up to be huge siege engines destroying Kurzick encampments)

Kurzicks kill the Luxon child in "Kill All the Luxons" quest. Well, that's just evil, right?
___________________________________________

On a lighter note, does anybody else wish we could kill both factions' camps?

That way, we could go back to "Romeo and Juliet", and tell them:

Me: "Hey, good news, the wedding is on."

Them: Oh, you got permission from our families?

Me: Not exactly. I killed them all.

Them: [shocked speechless]

Me: What? Oh, you didn't want your parents dead? Gee, sorry about that. But, hey, look at the bright side, your wedding got a whole lot cheaper! So, uh, do I get a reward or anything for this?

Them: ..........

well u r missing the aspect here in a way u don t need to pick a side . But on the other hand u do need to pick a side. Lets say u want a specific ar u need to build ur faction up with that side, and so far not really sure how much u need to build to get the stuff for the ar. Are u really going to spend all that time just to switch cause which ever one u have more faction in is who u r aligned with. but what ruins the game is look at it like this what if all the best players are luxons and the lux s own all the land what do u do as a kur lol. Its under the same lines as phrophecies europe always has fav lol and america has it from 10pm est to 9am est r americans really up that late at night lol. I agree with the 3rd party thing as always in world conquest u have always had more then 2 even if it was a alliance there has always been more then 2. Until the story line unfolds a lil and allows us maybe to see alil more of what really is going on in the world then maybe it will b easier for ppl to choose. I for one choose a side were i decide what happends i can control my own destiny not b under the rule of 5 elders with no way to change that lol lil tell that im lux all the way lol

That would be just awesome if we had the choice to fight against both factions to keep them both in line. Or leave them both alone. Maybe if we keep this thread going, A-Net will go back and rework Factions!
(Kidding, of course )

Well I'm pretty sure that switching sides temporarily won't be too hard. I think the way it works is that your guild leader chooses what side your guild will side with. This is the side you'll have to fight with whenever you do Alliance battles. As far as you personally though, I think your side has to do with how much faction from either side you currently have. So like, if you had 1000 Luxon, the Kurzicks wouldn't like you too much, and if you had 5000 Luxon, the Kurzicks might ban you from town or start attacking you in outside zones. But since Faction is there to be spent, you can just use your Luxon faction up, and then head over to the Kurzicks to get what you want out of them. Of course I'm sure you can't experience ever single aspect of being a Kurzick/Luxon without staying with them for a long time, as there will probably be another factor in your standing with the alliance other than your current alliance faction. There might be a string of quests that you might have to redo if you ever switched sides and then tried to come back. But, since from what I've seen so far, you don't need much faction to purchase stuff from the alliance traders, it probably won't be too difficult getting armor from another alliance.

I like being given a choice between empires/sides/factions. Though seperate forums may have to be created.
It was pretty cool how, in PlanetSide, you actually hated the other sides. Unless you're the lazy type who just makes another account(character?) and play on all empires. Damn WTJs...

***Spoiler Warning***
















Those of you who did the first Kurzick mission during the FPE weekend might remember the cutscene - unless you skipped it. Since I did it with henchies I didn't feel the need to and indulged in a snippet of the storyline.

It seems that no matter what side we choose, we have to convince the Luxons and the Kurzicks to fight together against Shiro. To quote my character at the end of the mission:
"Do you now believe that Shiro is back?"
Danika and her friend (a Count of some sort I believe) say yes and that they will work with their old enemy to defeat Shiro.

Alliances - it seems - will be for fun, pvp matters only.

Stormfall:

The Butter Battle Book! Dr Seuss! :P

Mordakai: ROTFL. That's just great.

As Mord knows from other threads, I have been critical of this whole choosing the sides thing. Although I wasn't overly impressed with the FPE (the Yu Gi Oh hairstyles have got to go among other things), my initial impressions were still favorable. However, there is still much we did not get to see, nor really have time to get a feel on how they will play out in the long term.

Right from the start, I think it's pretty stupid to have both sides giving your character the cold sholder if you have no Faction points, or an equal amount on both sides. From that standpoint, I wouldn't want to support either side. If someone wanted me to support their cause, they would have to show at least the littlist modicum of hospitality, therefore, if our Faction points don't support one side over the other, we should be able to use the NPC's and access the quests/missions for both sides. I would find it more challenging to play the game trying to keep my points "neutral" than to just pick a side and hack away.

Another problem is that at some point, it still seems that we will have to pick a side to access content in the game (be it quests, missions, items, etc.). Looking at it from a game play standpoint, this is a much more limiting mechanic than we encountered in Prophecies, and one of the reasons I have problems with Factions. The main selling point on GW for me was the sub free MMO bit, and the freedom to play the game the way I like to play - I had the choice of how to explore the world, even despite it's rather linear game play; I had the choice of going solo or teaming up with other players to PvE; I had the choice to avoid PvP altogether (aside from the Pre to Post crossover, but even that small bit can be skipped), or play as much PvP as I desired. Looking at Factions, it seems obvious a lot of this freedom is being nipped in the bud, and that's what I don't like about the game.

One of my whole issues was the fact that some content will be locked out in the game unless you choose a side and participate in one of the various forms of PvP. While I don't mind PvPing, the fact that I can't play 100% of the content that I paid for in the playstyle that suits me best is a little aggravating. Many people (myself included) find the Favor system in Prophecies a pain in the arse, but even that only involves waiting it out until your region has favor in order to access the locked content - my playstyle does not have to change. The initial look at Factions, however, doesn't support that idea, and I think that's why many people are having problems with the concept. At this point, I am glad that Anet has included a "war" option that so many others wish they had in Prophecies, and suits the MMO genre well. But, they still should have made it an option like the PvP/PvE portions of the first game are - we can choose how much or how little of either we want to participate in, yet still access 100% of the game we paid for.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Well, from as far as i can tell of the FPE, there is a neutral side. The entire city above is neutral and you can get armor and weapons there at anytime, regardless of which side you're on. Also, from what i understand, that entire city area will be opened up for exploration as a neutral area (possible fending off luxon and kurzick invasion/battles)...

Also, choosing to side with either force provides the option of gaining territory through guild alliances. This means as you win battles your alliance controls that territory for a time (factions is said to degrade over time), which also allows that alliance to reap the benifits of otherwise unexplorable areas inside that *owned* area, have acccess to weapons, mods and armor otherwise not available, etc...

Since PvP and GvG have become quite popular here in GW, i would have to say this is an excellent, well thought-out next step for the game. The 12v12 battles are increadibly fun (take 4 guildies and ramp it up!)... It took me less then half a day to earn back my 10000 luxon faction just 12v12 battling, which doesn't include all the side questing you can do to earn faction. So switching sides shouldn't be a major undertaking.

So far, basically 3 groups are running the show in Cantha and you can choose where you (your guild) fall into nicely, sounds like a good plan to me!

Actually, your guild leader can't "just pick a side". Side choosing without the faction points to back the decision would prove to be totally pointless. So unless the guild leader plans on earning all the faction points needed to gain a territory, earn all the points needed to unlock a certain area, then he mine-as-well go solo and let someone else take up his position.

Group efforts are specifically that *group efforts*, where the leader leads a group of like-minded people toward a task or idea. Even though GW offers you a way to go solo, the game is pretty much a group effort game, if you don't like the way your guild is going, change to another one you do agree with. Otherwise, you can sit at home with a console game and play sologames all day long!

I agree. the next chapter looks less and less worth getting for me.

Check your factions tab under 'H'. Faction is by totaled by account, so it appears you can maintain a balance if you have at least two chars...

then dont get it until you find out for sure.

chapter 3 by a completely different team is due in about 6 months so there is not a super long wait.

That fact made the choice quite easy for me. I love turtles. Nothing about either of the factions appealed to me, but when I heard about the Luxons, I was like, "OMFG GIANT TURTLES!" I actually farmed the supply running quest just so I could enter the Gyala Hatchery and save the cute baby turtles. I love turtles, especially the gigantic ones that the Luxons build their houses on. It's the way they just sit there, blinking majestically at you with eyes the size of your head . . .

Luxon Filth, they should be slaughtered like the swine they are.AEHAHEHAE

I must admit I am not getting Factions straight away. Am going to leave it for a few weeks after release so I can judge more accurately whether it's what I actually want out of Guild Wars. At the moment it's not. But I am adopting the 'wait and see' policy.

Funny thing was I was perfectly happy to get Factions, then the FPE weekend happened....

Well, then, I'd say that the FPE was a success.

You got to see what the game was like, and if you found nothing that made you say, "Whee!" (like I did), then maybe it's not for you.

Frankly, two customers are better than five, if the three extras are just going to be dissatisfied.

By the way, those baby turtles are good eatin'. And, as an added bonus, they don't grow up to have CANNON strapped to their backs that blow big holes through your children and other innocent loved-ones.

If the Luxons really valued strength as much as they're always spouting, they'd carry those cannon on their OWN backs, instead of mistreating poor innocent turtles.

Oh, and Lady Lozza; We'll have to get together sometime and discuss our childhood memories. ^_^