In response to definition of DOT AoE

You can use AoE every 3 seconds on a mob of enemies before they will scatter. How do I know? I use Zealots fire on my 55 monk build so I can kill mobs faster. Hit prot spirit wait three seconds then cast healing breeze.

Then you should hope that if they do anything about this at all that they do the latter and not the former because as I've said at least five times now making them run from SS will not do anything significant. As others have pointed out the AoE field is mobile you can't really run from it. the strategy involved with using SS also precludes running as a valid option for reasons that I have explained over and over and over again.

If you want AI changes that make them behave like PvP Opponents than as I've also pointed out you make SS overpowered as a shutdown skill. That's what SS really is. It is the ultimate shutdown. The only problem is the enemy AI don't see it that way. ANet probably has thought about all of this before and they left it this way because either they would have to put almost every group in the game with some sort of hex removal or they would have to make them just stop doing anything at all which in turn makes it easy to tear them to pieces.

Matsumi
I understand that thread title might be a bit confusing, but really you taking it into some irrelevant discussion. If you really care, create another thread something "really what DOT is" and I will be hapy to prove you my point there.

The reason why Barrage would not be nerfed by them running away from it is simple: Barrage isn't like a spell like fire storm where it has to recharge and use a lot of energy. If it were possible to recast fire storm at any moment then running away would not nerf it because you'd simply recast it as soon as the AIs came back.

Barrage is that way. You'd just hit barrage twice, watch as they all run, then hit it again as they come back. All it would do would be slow down the kill.

And the difference between MoP and SS has already been explained thoroughly, at least I thought, but I'll do it again. MoP is triggered directly as a result of the player's action whereas SS is triggered as a directly result of the monster's action.

Quoted for truth and for the fact that causing SS to trigger the chicken run will accomplish the exact same thing.

It would make no sense for barrage to be nerfed anyways, as it's a series of multiple attacks that each hit a single target and not a single attack that hits multiple enemies.

This is proven by barraging with empathy... you'll take 1 hit for each target you fire at.

Sorry if mentioned before

that is true, but it is noticed now, since it makes single spell deal way more damage than dedicated damage dealers. Its a fair point, yet it doesnt mean nothing should be done about this.

But really, Im not asking for SS to do less damage. Im asking for enviroment to be smarter about taking the damage from SS, which is equivalent to what you said.

Also I have necro character and I often farm SF with it. Yet I am still convinced that SS is way overpowered. It is just so ridicilously easy and lame I cant stand it. Every newbie can cap SS and suddenly become good at this game and be accepted in every group. That also makes my value as pro SS necro less.

As for playing my ele: I can still go and farm both of those places with either guild or few people from my friends list. Problem is it will take much more time and frustration to do it, while rather inexperienced people can be that in half the time by using just one slot on their skillbar (im not saying that all SS or barragers are newbs, its just the build itself is very newb-friendly)

Not at all

Barrage costs 5 (even less with expertise) energy, takes 1 second to use and has ZERO RECHARGE TIME. Whats that saying to you??

Barrage IS designed to be SPAMMABLE ATTACK.

Thats the go red engine-ing point.

Its not even an unconditional spammable attack. I solo farm with barrage. You have to have mobs positioned properly, they have to EXTREMELY close together, or you waste your shot.

Barrage is the cyclone axe and hundred blades for Rangers. If you nerf barrage, you have to nerf those skills too. Justs to be "fair"

Hell barrage isnt even much use in PvP, with a few specific exceptions: Killing ritualist spirits which are summoned too close together or using SoH and smiting an army of undead (only in FvF).

so you saying crappy spell should be crappier because it is crappy in the first place?

... thus fixing the problem with fool-proofness of barrage build without nerfing it to hell.
Or... you could actually time the use of barrage and not make monsters run.

Yes, and both of those can be rather chaotic and conditional... This rather the technical reason why SS does not cause scattering and not the logical excuse for it not to.

QUOTE=Avarre]SS is not DoT. DoT means Damage over Time, meaning a spell, condition, or hex that results in continual damage directly from the spell, over a fixed period of time with the same damage dealt per integer (of /s).

Examples - conjure phantasm, firestorm

Not DoT - barrage, spiteful spirit

AoE fleeing isn't caused by DoT. It is caused by 2 AoE strikes within a period of 3 seconds.

That said, you're right that SS is pretty messed up to not trigger it. It still should cause fleeing if a monster is damaged by it twice in 3s. However, it's nice that it doesn't [/QUOTE]


I think it actually is quite relevant to this discussion... because once you understand more what types of damage there are in a game and know how to differentiate between them, it will all together give you a better understanding of why SS or barrage was not included with the AoE nerf. But then again, maybe it won't, I don't know. Since the dev's won't share any information on the subject.

I think you should get off your horse and stop insulting by assuming you know something better than I do. Quiet frankly I think I know damage types and what DOT is much better than you do, and will continue to think so untill you show me the opposite.

totaly agree.

so pull them together and dont waste your shot.
Meteor shower works only on adjacent foes to, but it has 25 energy cost, 5 seconds cast time and 60 seconds recharge time, yet it is most effective nuke spell for elementalists. Now you telling me that if you waste 5 energy on 0 recharge time spell it will make you horribly useless... welcome to the ele world my friend

By you loginc Barrage should have ~5 seconds recharge time. Which is fine with me to, but I think scattering effect is better, because it would actually separate skilled barragers from noob spammers, while increased recharge time would put a hard cap on everyone.
I think you still missing a point here, which I brough up more than once. Barrage does NOT have to cause scattering if you apply a little bit of tactics while using it, but definately should cause scattering if you simply marked "1" on your keyboard as "i win" button and jerking it non stop.

I know I'm on ignore from old Ira there but I want to make this point as well. It should not be said that just because a build is easy to use, even ridiculously easy to use does not mean it lacks tactics. Tactics can either be preemptive or reactive. The best type of tactics are preemptive tactics but they can only be used when you have good intel. The ease of barrage and SS can be attributed to good intel applied to pre-emptive tactics. It's not a lack of skill or a lack of tactics. It's just a lack of reactive tactics because preemptive tactics applied with steam roller strategy is a recipe for success.

That being said I'd also like to define tactics a little better. A lot of people confuse strategy for tactics. Strategy is only an outline. Tactics is what fills it in. As Patton once said." Use steamroller strategy. Set your eyes on a mark and don't stop till you reach it, but in tactics do not be a steam roller. With tactics you attack weakness. You hold em by the nose and kick em in the pants." I think that is the finest definition of tactics ever. Tactics is attacking weakness either in the mechanics of the game, the enemy AI, player strategy or terrain. Barrage rangers and Ss necros are tactical characters.

I dont think changing mob AI will change how bad players will play.

The noob will always be a noob, thats why he/she is a noob. It has a mindset of stubborness, closemindedness and refusal to adjust to change.

Ive actually seen a barrage ranger using preparations with barrage, and using barrage on 1 target.

AI behaviour will NEVER change that. That is a PLAYER behaviour

edit:
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."

~Sun Tzu

Im not tryin to change players, Im trying to change GW to be fair game, where reward proportional to skill and effort used (ot close to it).

Half of the whole process in GW is preparation of your skillbar.

The mindset to learn how to make a build and experiment and make it perfect for a specific application is what seperates the "noobs" from the "l33t".

But this game has a huge community. Secret super builds that took weeks to design and perfect become public. Then what? Do those builds suddenly lose the skill it took to design it? Some skill sets are so genius that some people consider them exploits.

Look at the FoW and UW warrior solo builds. The FoW ranger solo build.

Taking a shortcut and using an already existing build TAKES ZERO SKILL. How do you propose to fix this? Remove all GW community sites where builds are posted up?

Because that would TRULY seperate the bad players from the good players.

Good players would make the money, get the items, get the fame. Everyone else would be stuck wondering what their secrets would be.

Its going to happen. The wisdom of the sages will pass to the commoner. Even though he might abuse it.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond as you clearly haven't read what I wrote about the difference between MoP and SS, but, in case you can see beyond the end of your nose, here it is again: MoP and SS are exactly the same to allies of the hexed foe. They are both AoE damage triggered by external circumstances for that ally. Therefore, the allies should flee from the hexed foe, as they do already in the case of MoP.

(Prediction: you will call me or my message retarded. Again.)

lyra_song
you will be suprised how many elementalists still using firestorm, cant kill shit even with decent skillbar and spam for energy every 30 seconds of the fight.

No i would not be surprised at all.

Then we agree that it all makes perfect sense. Difference is that ele (nuker in particular) profession is not fool-proof and actually requires decent amount of personal skill as well as awareness of team's actions to be even remotely effective, and SS or Barrager dont. There are two possible solutions to that:
1) change eles to be much easier to play
2) change rangers and necros to be harder to play
I prefer second.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/AoE

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage_over_time

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Barrage

Interesting what it says about Damage on Attack on the Barrage skill, relating to SS. That's all I'll say... sorry if I came off as being insulting Ira.

Matsumi
Im not sure I understand what you trying to say

did the links not show up?

get to the point please.

Nope, that's it, that's all I'm gonna say, and leave with. The point of it all is inside the links, it also talks about the AoE update on one or two of them. Have a great day everyone.

My stance on this:

Eles got gimped too much. They need to be revamped HEAVILY.

Rangers using barrage is not a "win all" button. Its only viable in specific builds and locations. Specifically Tombs. And how recent was this?

Curse Necromancers with Spiteful Spirit are very powerful. Versus people however, its quite easy to deal with. I agree that AI needs adjustment, but not in the same reaction to AOE spell damage.

Matsumi's point is that if you read through the GuildWiki definitions of AoE and DoT you see that any periodic AoE is a subcategory DoT.

o...k where did I ever disagree with that?

Uh SS is a hex. If the monsters didnt attack stupidly and instead spread out (not run, but spread out), it wouldn't be AOE. Therefore it shouldn't be classified as DOT AOE.

Barrage is not "AOE" according to the definition because it is activated by the player and attacks up to 6 foes. It doesn't target the spot but the foe and foes near that foe.
"Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target"
is not the same as "hit everything in the area" or in firestorm's case " For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for (Min: 5 - Max: 29) fire damage each second."

DOT AOE should NOT encompass skills like Aftershock, whirlwind, Flame burst, or Crystal wave though. They are not DOT but Player activated like Barrage.

gj on reading the thread and totaly disregarding it.

Ah ha! Barrage has been proven to not be an AoE at all, and by none other than the other skill that has been compared in this thread!

Read the description of Spiteful Spirit's effect carefully.

Now read this:

Look over both of those again. Spiteful Spirit deals damage whenever a foe attacks or uses a skill. If Barrage hits six targets, the SS damage will hit him six times. But Barrage is only one skill? Ah ha. This means it counts Barrage as six individual attacks.

If Barrage is six individual attacks, then it is not AoE as it is hitting only individual targets. I rest my case.

Okay, I think I'm really lost on the relevance of the definitions of AoE and what it has to do with the AI's reaction to SS and Barrage (which, BTW, is why I stopped replying earlier, it was off topic).

First of all, SS is definately an AoE skill, packaged neatly into a conditional Hex. Any skill that have the words "adjacent foes" or "foes in the area" is an AoE. Barrage is an Attack Skill that plainly "Attacks" up to 6 targets. Not an AoE.

Secondly, the point (I believe) of this thread is what should be done to "nerf" these skills, to which the suggestion of having mobs run from it as they do other AoE skills. I think any improvement to AI is an improvement overall. Make the game more challenging, that's really what this is all about.

Arguing semantics gets nothing accomplished. Offering up suggestions as to what can be done, and/or if something should be done is constructive, however. Whether or not these skills are AoE or DoT, point is, if it's too easy to kill mobs with them, then Anet must make it harder. That's my take on it.

I never said it wasn't an AoE, I'm just trying to argue my case on why Spiteful Spirit wasn't nerfed with the big AoE nerf awhile back. Which actually was the original point of the topic, I don't believe any of this was off-topic.

Actually, no, that statement was too general. Barrage has the words "Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target" and it is not an AoE, as you have already said.

god, is this thread still going??

my definition of DoT is very clear, anything that does consistent damage no matter what action the target is performing, and what enchantments/conditions is active on the target.

example. poison is DoT. it will ALLWAYS do 8 damage per second, no matter what you do, you can't lessen the damage it does byt casting anything on the target. and no. Mending doesn't count. it does not alter the damage done by poison at all, it only provides its own damage over time (allthough its negative damage, so it stacks)

but why is SS and MoP not DoT then? me no understand...
first of all, the damage that mark of pain and spitefull spirit does is not a set amount. there are ways to alter the damage (protective spirit, frenzy, healing signet, reversal of fortune, Mark of Protection to name a few, and yes i mean few, there are a lot of ways to alter it)
mark of pain also depends on the frequency of attacks, and type(physical) which mean blind will slow it, any evade/block skill will slow it, as will moving, because you wont get attacked as frequently.


so the short version. SS and MoP is NOT DoT because there are ways to alter the damage, or completely negate it

Viruzzz, although I agree that SS and MoP are not DoT, I don't agree with your whole post. They are not DoT because their damage is not consistant and always depends on the target's action.

But DoT can definitly be healed. DoT that causes degeneration is negated or altered by regeneration. DoT that causes consistant damage (such as fire storm) can be altered or negated by spells such as reversal of fortune and healing hands.

There is nothing that you can do to the AI that will make SS less effective. You really have two options when dealing with SS. they can run or they can run and stop doing anything but running until the hex wears off, this is in the absence of hex removal skills in the group. The problem with the first option is the way the AI handles the chicken run. When they scatter they scatter then regroup seconds later. The strategy involved in using SS is to hit as many targets as possible with it. So they attack they get the damage spike and the scatter is triggered. they scatter, they probably try to heal if able adding more damage and then they regroup. All you have done is broken up the interval between spikes slightly and added a few seconds to the kill time.

The second option, which would bring the AI more inline with what a real player would do with SS on them in the absence of hex removal, is to have them run until the curse is removed. This in effect shuts down all enemies with SS on them. A good curse necro with SS or worse still a curse and battery necro working in concert could keep an entire enemy group shut down indefinately making them easy prey for rangers and warriors who have either skills or just innate bonuses to attacking fleeing enemies. Basically you have taken the highest damaging skill in the game and turned it into the most goldy shut down skill in the game. You haven't balanced anything you just shifted the imbalance from one side to the other. I think this is why ANet left the skill alone because outside of basically replacing the skill entirely there is no good way to nerf it down. The damage scales with the size of the group so lowering the damage would only encourage the pulling or larger groups to close the damage gap. You have the aforementioned problems with altering the AI. In the end it's fine the way it is and needs to be left alone. The only reason it is widely used is because of previous nerfs to AoE spells and 55 monk builds which illustrates another problem with nerfing popular skills or builds. Someone will figure out a way to exploit the nerf to their advantage or a way to get around it. What you take on one end you lose on the other end.

Most of the time, people that "cry nerf" are people that would benefit from it. If they like playing mesmer and warriors have some skill that everyone wants, the mesmer gets jealous and says the warrior's skill should be nerfed. That's the way it goes.

You might not agree with it, even though you know it's true.

However, those people will almost always lay the "hard" card. They claim that they just want it nerfed in order to make the game more challenging, when in all reality if their profession were the one with the great skill they wouldn't say anything.

In most cases, the "hard" card works. In this case it doesn't. Causing SS to scatter mobs would not make the game harder for anyone. All it would do is cause the mobs to take longer to die. Making it take longer is definitly not making it harder, just making it more boring.

Even if they nerf SS, that just means people will find another skill to use to farm with and then the people that can't use that skill will be crying nerf. Then that skill gets nerfed and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. It's honestly quite stupid, the game will never be completely balanced so I don't know why people think it will.

If you don't like that a certain skill is dominating the game, then use that awsome creativity that you seem to think all GW players should have and find another freaking skill to try to replace it. Nerfing isn't always the answer.

Amen. Although I will say that the OP does have an SS necro. Why they would want to nerf their own character I have no idea. I agree though. The people that cry nerf seldom want balance. Usually it's a spiteful, selfish action.

I actually disagree with you here. This doesn't shift power...It distributes power. It does what the game was designed for...TEAMWORK. If the nerf did come true and SS necro's were in essence a "godly shutdown player"...It would require more than another 55 monk to kill groups. Like you said, Ranger/Warriors with enemy fleeing attacks. I don't see how this is a problem. You creating a fix that brings more characters into the fold.

On a similar note...this isn't a game where your only allowed one player. If SS Necro's are able to use a spell that makes the game exploitable, then make one yourself.

This is the most balanced game I've ever played. There will never be true equality because this is far to complex a game that DOESN'T require a subscription. People will find a way no matter how hard you try to snuff it out. So I completely agree w/ everyone who has pointed out that another nerf will only create another loop-hole somewhere else. That's the genius of this game. It's constantly being thought about. There must be a little shop somwhere with people just sitting around thinking up the next great thing.

Just my 2Cents.

If you look around in the last four missions, there is a need for elementalists that nuke, so they aren't extinct, secondly i went stance tank farming with my e/mo, i used renewal meteor shower with shield of judgement... Owned