In response to definition of DOT AoE

Agreed but the point I really wanted to make is that unlike other shutdowns where you might shut down their ability to use energy based skills and yet they can still attack you with standard attacks. SS would completely shut the enemy group down. Basically what you end up with is a bunch of scared little rabbits and one invincible group mowing them down. Granted it opens up the groups for more characters to participate, I personally think Hunter's Shot would be ownage if it turned into a shut down skill, but it doesn't change the fact that SS would still be overpowered by most people's definition.

erm... some people just dont get it...
DOT got nothing to do with conditions. Poison is just a simplest example for people to understand, nothing more. DOT is simply sum of all damage dealt over certain timeframe. How exactly it is being dealt is highly irrelevant.
DOT spell is simply a spell that does damage more than once over fixed period of time... THATS IT! PERIOD! It got nothing to do with how it is being triggered and who deals the damage and wherever it is hex or not. Stop making up lame definitions to suit your point of view people!

Actually sorry to burst your bubble but in most gaming communities, DOT is a type of skill wich does a certain amount of damage every time it is triggered over a certain period of time (i.e:degeneration). That's the way it is in most forums, so I doubt people are gonna change the meaning of an expression just for this forum.

Here's the way it is in most forums:

Total damage - no need for a definition
DOT (damage over time) - The equivalent of guild wars' degeneration
DPS - Damage per second

Total damage "doesnt need" definition because you dont have one. DOT is a total damage and it is not equivalent to degeneration, it is superset of degeneration. This is the way it is everywhere (except apparently this forum).
And if anyone else tells me that DOT is degen, im gonna find where he lives and smash his face against his monitor.

DOT is degen ....


*runs and hides*

Well, degen is one type of DoT...

Although the literal interpretation of someone who is not familiar with rpgs would be that damage over time would refer to the total damage taken in a set period of time, that's not the case. At least not in Guild Wars.

The correct use of "Damage over Time" is either degeneration (poison, bleeding, etc) or repeated damage in small discontinuous portions, usually each second, for a certain amount of time.

You know being confrontational doesnt lend well to your arguements because people will tend to ignore your valid points and just point out how much of an asshole you are being.

That is exactly the way I've been feeling this entire thread. Ira, all I get out of half of your posts is, "I don't care, I'm right and you're wrong."

You can't argue with someone who knows they are right. That's yet another universal truth. The best thing you can do is try to mitigate the damage that could potentially be done by someone who "knows they are right" misinforming those who don't know better than to know that this "infallible" person is not right. Keep explaining your positions. Counter calmly and rationally and offer examples and proofs and eventually people will start soaking some of it up. You aren't going to convince Ira of the fallacy of their arguments. It wouldn't matter if God himself came down and said."Hey you're wrong. Stop being a jackass" Ira would still not concede the point.

I don't know how it can be explained any further really. Some other things I thought of would be to try other games and see what types of spells are concidered DoT spells/skills, and which are DD spells, or AoE spells, etc. Has anyone ever played Evercrack (Everquest)? Try starting up a wizard or a magician in that game, and tell people you are a DoT AoE specialist with your elemental damage AoE spells... you'd probably get laughed at quite a bit and a few people might be nice enough to inform you that what your using isn't a DoT in fact. Heck, even try playing WoW and tell them what a DoT is, and that it doesn't mean degen (or doesn't need definition as you state) or small bits of damage each second over a period of time. You would get the same response probably, although I'm sure quite a few people that didn't know what it was either, would be siding with you for a while, until informed more about types of damage associated with rpg's and what they're refering to. The proof has already been put up there numerous times that it means degen, but it seems like you're not willing to even look at that. Instead, just taking the literal sense of the term and clearly not understanding the rest of it as even applying. Like I've said before, try researching it yourself and how it is categorized, then it won't sound like I'm the one saying it to you, or making up definitions. They were already pre-defined terms that were categorized by other games, along with this one. They have stuck to these definitions throughout time in rpg games.

Kind of reminds me of somebody covering their ears, and saying "nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah. Stop talking to me or I'll smash your face in!" when all you're really trying to do is inform them about something that would only benefit them in the long run. If it's concidered insulting because that person thinks I'm trying to sound better then they are, it's the complete opposite. Knowledge isn't meant to harm anyone, but I guess some people will continue to kick and scream when they insist they're right all the time. When you start to realize that you don't know everything, is when the real learning begins imo.

As far as nerfing SS or Barrage? Why bother, they clearly don't fall into these categories from what guildwiki says, and that's why they were left out. Even if you wanted to nerf SS or Barrage, as mentioned numerous times in here, what would be the point? To have to go after other conditional hexes that also fall into the category of SS? Or other single skills that offer multiple attacks from one attack? Doesn't make sense. Why would SS or Barrage be an elite skill then? If you took out the AoE consequences of SS you would just have a different form of empathy. If you took out the ability to attack up to 6 targets with arrows, you might as well just have punishing shot or something similar.

Damage over time, abbreviated DoT, is a term commonly used to describe skills that distribute damage to their target over a period time, rather than all at once.

There are two types of damage over time:

* Repeated damage in small discontinuous portions, usually each second, for a certain amount of time, as caused by Balthazar's Aura, Chaos Storm, Eruption and many other spells, especially AoE spells.
* Continuous health degeneration, such as inflicted by Conjure Phantasm or conditions like bleeding and burning, expressed as arrows pointing left on the health bar. Note that technically the game does not consider health degeneration as damage.

An important consequence of the difference between these two is that in the former case, each portion of damage counts individually, so protective spells like Shielding Hands or armor that "reduces damage" will reduce each small portion. These portions will also trigger spells which activate upon taking damage, such as Healing Seed or Balthazar's Spirit, but continuous health degeneration will not trigger an effect at all.

When people say "damage over time" they may mean both types or only one of the two.

^^guildwiki article

Does it really matter? Anet didn't say they wanted to nerf DoT, AoE DOT, or any of the things being argued about in the definition (in fact, thier claim is it didn't nerf them at all). Thier claim was that they wanted to bring PvE closer to PvP - no one (well, decent players at least) stands in a firestorm or next to someone with Balth's Aura so the mobs no longer do. Arguing over if SS is AoE DoT or not is fine, but it is irrelevant on the idea if those skills will get an AI nerf.

Given that Barrage, SS, Empathy, Backfire, and a whole host of spells will eventaully get an "AI update" (as us smiters and fire eles were told to call it when it first occured). At the rate SS is used right now it probably has a similar priority as the old things like firestorm - that is expect it before long. Personally I expect a full "Hex" AI update - have a damage causing hex cast on the mob and it quits attacking (stopping SS, Empathy, Backfire and others as PvE killers all in one go). As I said before, having these things work they way they do flies in the face of what Anet said - they will get nerfage sometime. I suspect thier only real saving grace for now is too busy on the Factions release (unless, of course, it ends up being part of it).

DoT damage can not be altered. if you cast healing breee, mending or use troll unguent it will not do anything to the damage, it will only apply its own "negative damage", like healing hands and healing seed, it does not negate the damage done, it only heals some of it back when triggered.

Thing is, that would be normal logic if people didn't have the opportunity to try out an 'overpowerd' build of their choice already. If said Mesmer wanted said Warrior skill, all they have to do is roll a Warrior. Simple as that.

I don't see why people would complain about skills like SS and Barrage just simply because their characters don't have them. Belive it or not (or simply check out my other posts), I have a necro, and my wife (whom I play with on a daily basis), has a ranger. I have SS, she has Barrage.

*GASP*

Does that mean that my saying that we need better AI that can properly defend against these two skills is complete hypocrisy? It could mean that I like to have fun in PvE, and it's hard to when the AI just grabs it's ankles and says "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

I say it again you can't make any AI changes that will make SS less powerful. See my above posts for why.

I've read through almost all of this thread and noticed that no one has mentioned a very important point in this argument. SS and Barrage are ELITE skills. Almost all of the skills the were affected by the AoE nerf are NOT elite. The whole reason why you are only allowed to pack one elite skill at a time is because they are decidedly more powerful than the rest of the skills. The OP's original complaint seems to be that SS and Barrage are more powerful than firestorm and meteor shower, which they should be, as firestorm and meteor shower are not elite.

thats not a very good point. if anything monsters would have more reason to run from a more dangerous skill.

also, you can't really use that argument because SS is really the only elite skill that has any kind of continous AoE effect, anything else is mostly high damage single attack, so if there are no other elite skills that work like it you can't generalise.


also there are elite skills because some of them are simply too powerfull compared with other elites, and having 2 on your bar should not be possible. or some elites are simply better versions of an allready existing skill.

best example of this would be Defy pain and Endure Pain, both give the exact same amount of health at same strength level, and the same duration too if i remember correctly, the only difference is that Defy pain gives an additional 20 armor for the duration of the skill.

SS CANNOT BE NERFED! THE ONLY VIABLE OPTIONS WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

Actually madman, that is a good arguement.

He's not saying that. He's saying SS should be better than spells like firestorm and meteor shower because it is elite whereas the others are not. Whether or not monsters would logically run from it has nothing to do with it, it only has to do with whether or not it should be nerfed.

By that same token you can't generalize and say it has to.

Along with Defy Pain and Endure Pain, I think a very good example would be Emapthy and Spiteful Spirit. This is quite common knowledge and I don't see what point you're making torwards your arguement.

It can be nerfed, but I'd much prefer to see aatxe with Chaos Fingers XD. To nerf SS add, gasp!, diversity to mobs. Shatter Hex mesmer in ever mob to nerf SS.

So, in PvE, if one were to make mobs quit attacking when SS is on them there would be no change (PvE AI changes is what is being is mostly being talked about)? It must not work like it's description then, it would then be Pacifism without the "ends when takes damage". Of course, just like the AoE AI change it doesn't really nerf the skill, exactly. It just makes it useless without changing how the skill operates or is used. I would consider this one highly viable - even likely, especially given what they did with AoE stuff.

Not to mention it's quit possible to change it to "For 1...4 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful spirit deals 1...8 shadow damage to that foe and all adjacent allies of that foe" or "For 8...18 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful spirit deals 5...29 shadow damage to that foe and all nearby creatures" (also causes 50% sacrifice) - I would call that "nerfed" myself and both would change quite a lot of things about it. Nor do I see eny reason why it could not be done (especially the first case).

Not that I'm advocating the last position be done (that would be a bad idea), but to say it can not be nerfed is kinda strange. It doesn't take much thought at all to nerf it quite badly (regardles of your definition of "nerf"), even to make it totally useless and destructive.

I'm curious as to why these can not be done or they would cause no change. Us not liking it has always been irrelevant (especially those relying on it not liking it), and obviously AI changes making skills irrelevant is seen as OK also.

Seriously...This is PVE, not PvP. We have lvl 28 monsters that come in continuous mobs, have like twice the hp that we do, interrupt with insane timing, elemental resistance, crazy armor, very high damage.

What would you say if you now have to to face a team that is lvl 28 and is exactly like the bladed aataxes in UW in PVP? Would you scream unfair?

What AoE does is that it balances the insane advantage that the monsters have on the players (except the inablility to heal for most mobs). Right now using firestorm or any DoT AoE other than meteor shower pretty much guarantees that a caster on you team is going to die. (even with infuse and prot spirit, try infusing/prot spiriting against three 300 dmg attack warrior)....