Favor taking the fun out of GW

Another issue that bothers me is when people say, "Just go win HoH." It isn't like the standard PvE player would have a dream of a chance in Heroes' Ascent. It is just that highly competitive. It would be better if PvE teams faced each other, instead of the beast of the PvPers. :/

Didnt someone awhile back have a suggestion for countries not having favor having a different way into uw and fow. Instead of simply paying and going in they had to fight or do some kind of upperlevel challenge in order to gain access to an area they were not "worthy" of being in. Not an easy challenge either something that would beat the socks off of trappers and solo monk duos. Not my thought although I dont remember who originally said that. Other than that thought Im fine with the current system of favor.

Yet another favor thread that seems destined for the closed bin.

If any of you haven't yet, you should go read the final word on this topic. Nothing is going to change with regard to the favor system.

The. Final. Word.

For those of you wanting the favor system to stay, consider this:

You have a group of friends seperated over the europe and american servers due to their location and their usual playing times. They are all out of region changes. They want to do a FoW run togeather. How do they play a FoW run with each other ?

For factions, that doesn't look like it will be a problem as access to the eilte missions will depend on where the battle line is and what alliance your in. Guilds, and therefore alliances, aren't region specific and I can't see any reason why the battle line wouldn't be global.

For me, I suggest doing something like reducing the valuable drops if you go in without favor, but still allow people to experiance it.

The final word? Final word my ass...that thread was closed because supporters of both sides of the arguement were rabidly flaming eachother. Better call up the dictionaries..."consensus" just got redefined. Just because ANet voiced thier stance doesn't make it any less BS.

I don't like being caught in the middle of a pissing match between Europe's and America's elite PvP players. I can only imagine how Korea, Japan, and Taiwan must feel. If I were based in one of those countries, I'd change my account location IMMEDIATELY.

It sounds to me almost as though the system is being protected soley to preserve the value of Europe's success (or 6 months ago, America's, or 6 months from now, who knows). Most excellent - a system that penalizes 4 regions at a time as a result. Can we get a new definition for "draconian"?

And, just for the record...I'm pretty sure there's a slight difference between "dynamic" and "arbitrary linkage". The game would be dynamic if after 6 months of solid PvE play, I could waltz into HA and start winning. NOT! Even if the game *technically* values skill over time played, the players certainly don't. My chances of getting into a team without grinding (there's that word again!) out my bambi are virtually zero. Not that it matters - increasingly more and more teams are asking r6+. Yeah, I don't think I'll be affecting change any time soon.

So, what do I think? I think the game is "dynamic" only to those who have the power, the connections, and the skill (oh, and they'd have had to start within three months of the game's release) to win HA with any consistency. To the rest of us, ANet's definition of "dynamic" is nothing but a bitter hypocrisy. No one is forced to play one style over another indeed.

All. Lies.

-Jessyi

I think what upsets folk the most with this issue is that its the end-game content that is dependant on favour. I have been around since release and all my characters have completed the game and the only place I enjoy PvEing at this stage is the end-game content which is FoW and UW.

I'm not too bothered by this issue because I like to HA and GvG also, however, I can understand why a PvE-only players would feel frustrated when they want to play the end-game but are unable to do so because their region doesn't have the favour of the gods. They aren't going to think 'Hey! I'll go HA and win favour!' - I suspect many have tried PvP and didn't like it.

These PvE folk who want to be challenged by the end-game content aren't going to find a challenge anywhere else in tyria. They aren't going to just run around the shiverpeaks or maguuma jungle for the hell of it. I beleive that they most likely farm and wait on favour. I can therefore understand their frustration with the favour system.

Sorry, but A.net wins. You may be the customer, but when they say no, they mean no. I think one reason favor is linked to FoW/UW is to discourage e-bay gold farmers from using the areas. It is unprofitable to them to only have access to a farming spot a third of the day.
I like the system as it is.

Hence my idea, when you lack favor, you dont get drops down there. Besides, ANET will likely change their mind if a loud enough fuss is made about it, since they want people to keep buying new chapters. So if enough people threaten to not buy any more till ANET changes it, ANET will change it.

But I will not be making such threats, as america usually has favor when I want to go down there

The reason for Europe's favor (I'm european myself) is am dis 1.
IWAY! Only IWAY all the time, and that's not the build to WIN HA with, but to gain Fame. So it's your choice. Make a HOH holder or a fame machine.

So, if I understand you correctly, if you seperate the two player types and allow them to play in a way which both will be happy doing their own thing, it will cause hate? That doesn't make sense in any way. "Damn those PvEers for playing their game unimpeded! Just look at their hateful, smug, happiness!"

Don Zardeone
your premis is flawwed..

ahem, shouting will commence in 3..2..1..

THIS GAME IS NOT, IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.....DESIGNED SOLEY TO TEACH YOU TO PVP!!

PVE IS NOT, NO WAY, NO HOW, DESIGNED JUST TO TEACH YOU TO BE READY TO GO PVP AT THE END OF IT

*shouting over.....cooldown period ajustment.....*

for goddess sake, it is just NOT! no matter how many times you morons think it is such, it is for both playstiles....
sure, some people play both....just like some people play ether one or the other....

but the maker sof the game din not design this so that all players would be forced to go pvp at the end of their pve experiance...
what is the point then, of allowing us to have 4 VARIABLE slots?
if that were the case, then we would have been given 1 slot for PvE...and 3 PvP ONLY slots....so once you had passed thru your pvp traing, ie PvE as you seem to think....we would keep out one silly little trained PvE monkey and moved on to their prefered 3 pvp toons....

sheesh, someone just shoot people that say stupid crap like that

From a software design standpoint, it seems that the developers knew that the PvE aspect of the game would be quite short, easily completed in around 2 months. Since an MMORPG with a lifespan of 2 months would be a bad design weakness, they implemented hunts for Green items to lengthen its lifespan while keeping in mind that making Guildwars one of those mindless farming games would also put casual players off from playing it.

Hence they designed PvP to be an endless wave of battles without anyone really gaining any advantage in the long term (unless they were ranked in the top 100 guilds). This model for PvP is similar to the model used for Counter-Strike in which players would play the same maps hundreds of times using the same weapons and still be coming back for more.

By now in its life cycle, the taking the Favor of the Gods has become very tedious and people no longer care about which country has favor any more (except the farmers) which is why in Factions they've decided to directly involve the entire game world into a never-ending conflict between two sides.

I would like that HA were not linked to servers' regions, let's say link HA just to the guild name of the team if there is any, else just the name of the leader. Server's region is irrelevant. Therefore, I do not like that UW and FoW are linked to the Favor of the Gods. A demonstration of my dislike is that I have been in UW and FoW only 3-4 times, and it was because some friends wanted my colaboration; I never have been in UW or FoW because my own wish.

Instead of linking the tournament to servers' region, I would suggest I) that guilds ranking could be known ingame, and II) that the tournament had a ranking based on players' actual perfomance in the tournament!; and not in Fame's rank which is based in time played. (So that players' rank were changing like guilds' rank). I think, that this would be in better agreement with the statment that Guild Wars is a game about players' skill and not about time played.

I like that GvG is not linked to servers' regions, think I have not been able to play GvG even once due to not have been able to find a suitable guild (I may be a way too exigent with the guild I wish, as I have been playing GW near one year ). Neither, have I been able to play in HA.

Wow, 4 months ago all the favor system was nice and dandy for american players.
Everyone on this forum was like "go win HoH, if you need favor", or "stop switching server and win for Europe".

But now the favor system sucks...how can it be?

ah yes, easily completed...
by a wamo or monk whatever class....

you do know there are some players that DONT complete the game at all, or even in the 6 months of play since it came out, have gotten a single character accended or even been to the HA/HoH/UW/SF ect?

just cause a good proportonof the games players finish their first character in PvE after a wekk or two, dosent mean that its that easy for everyone....some people take their time and try to explore the whole map they are in....not everyone just does the main linked misions and scoot all the way from ascalon to the fire isles in one easy linked up steamroll....
theres a lot of little misison and quests that *some* of us like to play through, you know....

if they wanted the games shelf/play life to be 2 months pve and then the rest pvp, they should have said that on the box, or at least said..
*we fully expect all first time players to simply follow the bunny to the mission links and finish their first characters within a 1-2 week to 2 month maximum...oh, but sure, you can replay with your SECCOND character all the content you bypassed to fulfill your finish in 2 month obligation....*

Keep favor for access from ToA but reactivate Grenth's Temple in Lornar's Pass, and Build another Temple to Balthazar that can access UW anfd FoW at all times.

That way when you have favor, it's a quick port to ToA and you're in UW/FoW.
When you don't have favor, you fight from the War Camp, Beacon's, or Rankor and you're in UW/FoW.

Everyone is happy.

Problem: those of us on the Asian servers can't change to to regions that gain favor (NA/Euro). At the moment, only those that are lucky enough (or stupid enough) to have two accounts (one NA/Euro) are able to play in the fun areas.

Proposed solution (I really don't think it's as big of a problem as people are making it out to be, but it would be nice to start working on a set of armor for my @ncjapan monk):
Region has favor - 1k entrance fee to UW/FoW
Region does not have favor - 3k entrance fee, reduced rare item/material drop rate, reduced chest spawns, slightly reduced quest rewards

Oh, and combine it with Dougal Kronik's idea, just for fun.

I don't see the possibility of any changes happening, though, since they've already said that they won't be making any massive and showstopping changes to "prior content."

So sick of hearing this. "Everyone" is a flat lie. Maybe some people changed their tune like that, but many of us did not.

Come to think of it, this whole mess is probably caused by thinking of people within a region as fungibles. Forgetting entirely that the people in a region who want to go to FoW/UW are rarely the same people who can go out and win the HoH when they want to, and that those two groups in fact share nothing other than a loose similarity of geography. Linking them with the favor system just makes no sense.

The favor system is inherently flawed. Of course it is. It's been that way since release, it's common knowledge, but unfortunately, they don't seem to want to do anything about it.

Which, in turn, gives me shivers of dread about Factions--if they don't care that so much of the population can't access these places, they won't care that even more of the population won't be able to access those elite missions.

Ugh. Fix this, please.

It seems to me many of you have are making a few assumptions.

1. You must play UW and FoW, there's nothing else in PvE.
2. PvE and PvP should not be connected in any way.
3. The only way to win HoH is to do it yourself.

Seriously...

There's more to the PvE game than UW and FoW. The two areas were designed to reward the region that PvPs the best. If your region didn't win, there's still so much more to do in the game world. No one claimed everyone should have a right to UW and FoW. There's much more to the game than farming.

It's a single game, people. It's called Guild Wars. Let's not divide one game into two any more than we have already. The two aspects of Guild Wars are meant to intertwine, and the game was meant to encourage people to do both aspects. Let's not separate this game into two.

You will not win HoH on your own. You may not be able to do it with your guild. But your efforts, combined with the efforts of everyone in your region, will let you win. How did Europe manage to claw its way to the top and keep favor? They banded together as a region, and helped themselves. Once again, European solidarity seems to have pulled them through.

What's the problem with us? We're too lazy and self-centered. We believe that our own individual merits alone should be able to get us all the rewards we want. When we come against competition that's out of our league, we're too lazy to work harder to improve. Instead, we complain that the system is unfair.

The solution does not lie in splitting apart the game. The solution lies in rallying as a region to overcome the problem. Observe the enemy. Work out strategies to counter them. Post them on the forums, so everyone can benefit. Together, we can do this, and we can finally enjoy an aspect of the game that transcends individuals.

Edit:
To quote ol' Ben: We must hang together, gentlemen... else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.

Why are people still fighting over this? PvPers are clearly the ones who the game is being geared toward, get used to it. Us PvEers are SOL.

PvP builds are running amok with a certain skills sets? Welcome to Nerfville, PvE.

PvP whines that they have to PvE to get upgrades and runes at a reasonable rate? No problem, we'll just change faction so you don't have to PvE so much.

PvE whines that they can't reach their maps unless something in PvP happens to let them? Just shut up and PvP you lazy bums.

The only thing you HAVE to do in PvE is unlock skills, and you hardly have to spend much time doing that if you have guildies who will run you around to do it.

I wish they would just split the two completely. The "award" for winning HoH is stupid, they're not willing to fix it, so if they can't do it right, just don't do it.

LOL, how come no one has mentioned the real reason for favor? Save on server stress.

Since GW doesn't have a monthly server fee, this frees up some server space by encouraging PVE's to log off. I do PVE and PVP equally. Sometimes I'm in the mood to do either, but I usually log on with the intent of specifically doing "X". When X was TOA stuff, and we don't have favor, I used to just bitch in the public chat, but now I just log off and do something else. And that's frustrating, when GW is a game, and you want to have fun by playing it. It's a business decision, nothing more.

LOL, actually I like the concept of favor. Makes an all-instanced world feel more dynamic. But not all things that sound good in concept prove to work well in practice. This being a prime example. I know some of you mentioned the goofieness of PVE and PVP being tied together. Some of that is OK, but favor imposes unnecessary gameplay restrictions. What's even goofier though is favor being assigned to regions of our world (the "Earth/Real" world). Why would the GW gods care what is happening on Earth, a planet/dimension where no one worships them anyways?

But seriously, there's this and a couple of other things in the game that makes me think ANET wants us to buy the game, but not play it. Seen the new "you've been playing three hours, you should take a break" messages? A agree that that's a long time to play, not that many of us don't play longer. However, there are certain PVE areas that take 2-4 hours, plus time to get a team together. Time to get a team together can be very long unless your playing with your guild or a formula build.

Tell you what ANET, I'm set up for the American districts. Once America holds favor most of the time again, skipping Japan's chance to hold it, then ditch the whole favor thing, OK?

Let's go on a quoting spree:

Ding ding! You win the "Obvious Prize". I'm not being sarcastic...it's a hard prize to win apparently.

I was complaining about the WaW system long before it was fashionable. Partly because I'm an arguementative asshole, partly because the system always HAS sucked.

Man, that sucks. Why can't they? And if they can't, how did they ever get NA/Euro accounts? Well, whatever the cause, they've got even more of a right to scream than I do. Fight the power brothers!

But this...this is my favorite:

Is that a problem? In a skill based game, should not my individual merits (or skills if you prefer) allow me unconditional access to FoW whenever I want? I don't know how you'd measure "merit" here anyways, since I've made my position of PvE-PvP linkage being BS absolutely clear...

This attitude is the problem I have with the WaW system. I didn't COME HERE TO COMPETE. THOUSANDS OF US HAVEN'T! If I were told at day 1 that I'd be forced to PvP or risk losing my god-given right to bitch, I'd...I'd...I don't know what I'd do. But I'd be angry. Very, very angry. I'm angry now.

If I wanted to deal with arbitrary restrictions, politics, fighting, and competition, I'd turn of the EFFING GAME AND GO LIVE MY LIFE. At the end of the day, when I ought to be finished with my daily frustration and ready to play a little GW, only to be told what I can and cannot do by European PvPers...makes me want to snap. Or drink. A lot. I might go do that now.

@#$*@#$ing @#$&% Grrr....

-Jessyi

Exactly Jessyi. You want to play the game and have fun. Not try to play the part of the game you have fun with and be denied after a hard days work.

I really like Dougal Kronik's idea of putting access to them along lomars pass or some where hard. That would limit farming, because the build to get you there, would be different from the farming build once your in there. There's allready a shrine to the underworld guy there anyways. The FOW map could be somewhere on the west coast of Abbadon's Mouth. Have a boat to the next island on the NW, or open up some of the mountain to the SW with a shrine/portal to the war god.

I like that idea Chrono. Just to add though there should be a repeatable quest to take you to either statue that provides enough xp to remove any dp that anyone might have getting there. That way you begin either place with a fresh start just as you would now leaving from ToA.

Don't need a quest to remove DP. When your server has favor and the statue is active you can pay to have DP removed, or to get a morale boost.

I believe all the statues are like that.

So instead of going in Clean from from ToA spending only 1k to enter, you suggest people pay the 1k then spend another depending on the dp you have.

Jessyi, the quote you have with my name on it isn't something I said. That's something I quoted to rebut in much the same way as you did.

It's divided into two by its very nature. Any attempts to combine those two parts are just artificial and pointless restrictions.

How does that work, exactly? I mean, I'm not exactly a HA expert, but my understanding is that if two European teams meet in a match, it's winner-take-all just as much as if a European team faces an American one. How can a region band together?

It has nothing to do with competition being out of people's league. The people who are complaining about not being able to get to FoW/UW are, in large part, not the people who play in HA. Any competition is "out of their league", because they're not interested in competing!

Transcends individuals' interests, more like. Why should anyone have to band together (as if that's even possible) with people they have no connection to, don't care about, probably don't even like, to compete in an event they don't enjoy and don't care about, just to play the game they do want? It makes no sense.

Your choice .... clean from ToA, or go in from one of those other stautes ..... with DP or pay to have it removed.

The Temple to Grenth in Lornar's Pass actually was an alternate entrance to the UW at one time.

The spin I was putting on the idea was to make the new entrances the only ones and allow full access putting favor to rest. So the choice to either go from ToA w/o dp or the other way with possible dp is not there. So you provide quests, first of all to let new comers know of the location of these statues and second to give a large enough xp reward to clear any dp just like the ones in FoW and UW. To get this quest reward one would have to enter either place (which requires you to pay the money and be ascended) and talk to a ghost.

I see. Let me compound that idea. We leave the entrances at ToA for when your region has favor (the way it is now) and add the other entrances that are always available ..... but ...... you either get there with no DP or pay a price to have it removed (or enter FoW/UW with DP). A bit more challenging that way.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. But realize if you walked to the entrance (which you would do when your country doesn't have favor), you wouldn't be able to pay for the DP removal (because you can only pay for those god services when your country has favor). But then that's just extra reson for a balanced group to get there... so you can battle your way there w/o DP.

But still, I don't see why the GW gods care if your European, American, Japanese, Korean, or whatever. In fact, I'm pretty sure they don't know what those countries are anyways.

I believe you're missing the whole point of my argument. It's true, the nature of Guild Wars is two sided, but those two sides are as much intertwined as they are separated. It's in the nature of Guild Wars just as much as shooting people is in the nature of an FPS. Sure, there are other things you can do, and sure, you don't have to do everything, but there are some decisions you have to make, because, after all, Anet is encouraging everyone to try PvP or to try PvE.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand what I meant by rallying. I was trying to say that you must think of it in the large scale and in the long term. When the average population of a region gets better at PvP, over time more chances to go to UW would open up. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with the Europeans meeting the Europeans in HA, though... perhaps you could clarify?

If some people have no interest in competing, then they cannot expect to claim right to the rewards of competition! Please don't say that UW and FoW are the only places you enjoy playing, because if it is so, you should have known that they are accessed through PvP before you bought the game.

Why can't you accomplish something on your own individual merits? It's simple. This is a team game, and it was designed as such. The regional aspect is simply the next level.

Anet is trying to encourage PvEers to PvP by offering them a reward for winning. If you don't like to PvP, don't. No one's forcing you. But you can't expect to take other people's rewards and claim it as your right, can you?

Sorry NatalieD, I edited the quote info. My bad. Hey, I'm on your side.

And for this:

Well, I suppose I can't argue that sentiment. That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I never thought of UW and FoW as being the "rewards of competition" what with them being PvE areas and all.

Still, the way I see it is that giving access to FoW and UW to the winners of PvP tournaments is a lot like rewarding a diabetic with a chocolate bar.

-Jessyi

"Still, the way I see it is that giving access to FoW and UW to the winners of PvP tournaments is a lot like rewarding a diabetic with a chocolate bar."

implied assumption: People who play and win at HA dont play UW/FoW PvE.

needless to say, this is incorrect.

Stuff and nonsense. The only things that "intertwine" them are favor and unlocks, which are less intertwining than clumsy attempts to nail them together.

You're making the mistake I alluded to earlier in this thread, of treating players of the same region as interchangeable entities. In reality, those players have nothing significant in common. The regional distinctions are just as arbitrary as any other. And it makes no sense to arbitrarily divide players into groups and tell one player that access to the gameplay he enjoys is dependent on how well some other players he's never met perform at a completely different kind of gameplay he couldn't care less about, just because they happen to be in the same group as him.

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying about banding together. Never mind that.

More sloppy thinking. The whole thesis of this thread is that FoW/UW should not be the rewards of competition. Trying to make a point against that thesis with an argument that depends on the antithesis being true is absurd.

If by "you" you mean me, personally, then I'll repeat what I said in the first post - I don't care about PVE, I don't care about the FoW or UW, I've never been to either and probably never will. I'm arguing against favor because I'm opposed to stupid ideas on principle, even ones that have no effect on me.

Regions as higher-level teams fails, as an analogy, because teams are formed by choice and regions by accident of geography. (Random Arena being an exception teamwise, of course, but there are reasons why it's considered the bottom of the barrel for PVP.)

The hall-winners' chest is a much better reward for PVEers to PVP. The favor is an absolutely silly way to encourage that - as somebody already pointed out, many players only have a certain amount of time to play each night. To form a team, win one's way to the hall, and hold it six times takes enough time that they won't be able to go into the FoW/UW after they do it. And by the next night, the favor will likely have shifted again. In other words, for a lot of players, winning the Halls won't help them get to the FoW/UW, even if they can do it. Are they ultimately any better off than if they just sat around waiting for someone else to win it for them? I can't see how.

See my fourth paragraph again.

Hmm...I'll reword that for you. Implied assumption: Dedicated PvEers play UW/FoW a lot more than dedicated PvPers. Sorry for the confusion.

Nat, you are a God.

-Jessyi

Yes, favor and unlocks are there to encourage people to do both. What holds the two sides together is the fact that you're playing the same game, just fighting real people vs. AI.

True, perhaps I am making that mistake. I know not everyone in the Europe region are Europeans. That is irrelevant. Most of the people there are.

Why does it not make sense to arbitrarily divide players based on geography and tell them how they do is dependent on the performance of someone he hasn't met? It's how most competitions work. As for enjoying the gameplay, like I've said before, if the only thing you enjoy about PvE is UW/FoW, then I don't know why you even bought this game.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. My point is that UW and FoW SHOULD be the rewards of competition, because it encourages people to play both PvP and PvE. Not that you're forced to, mind you. I'm arguing on a population-wide basis here, not an individual one.

Great! I'm happy that you can help provide opportunities for people to access FoW and UW. You argue that the idea is stupid on principle, but I'm trying to illustrate the reason behind it.



I don't know about you, but I think a region is quite big enough for you to choose your teams. I see nothing wrong with dividing a huge population into a few groups to better foster competition. After all, it is what most other competitions do. You have the regional brackets in basketball, the American League and National League in baseball, etc... What's the problem?

Perhaps the winner's chest is a much better reward. I'm not saying favor is perfect, I'm just defending the principle behind it.

As for your argument that people often don't get a chance to do UW/FoW after they've won a HoH match - again, you're thinking on too much of an individual basis. Sure, it might be inconvenient for you to take direct advantage of your victory. But, your victory provides opportunities for others, and if more people did what you did, there would be plenty of opportunities to go around. It's like sports - you win some, and you lose some. You can't expect to win everything. Really, that's part of the fun.

Perhaps if enough people complain, ANet may listen. The customer may not always be right; but in this case they are.