Favor taking the fun out of GW

Give the rewards to those that earn them. Keep the way Favor works for access from ToA. But reactivate the access from Lornar's Pass and have work with or without Favor.

That way if you fight your way to the temple - your rewards is access to the UW. Your trials - your rewards!

I never understood why getting mauled in two hits by a bladed aatxe or fried by a shadow elemental was rewarding. The region with the favour of the Gods should be allowed to enter the land of chocolate, candy and bunny rabbits!

That doesn't hold them together, though, and I'm mystified as to why you would think that it does. It just makes them two games that use the same basic structure to do different things. It's almost like saying that basketball and soccer are held together because they both use a ball.

...you could not have missed my point more. Every single player in the game's European region could be a native European and it wouldn't change what I said at all.

Um, no, actually it isn't.

It doesn't have to be the only thing someone enjoys to make restricting it a lame idea. Besides, it's not like there's a huge amount of other stuff to do for a character who's finished all the missions and non-favor-dependent quests.



a) That isn't what you said in the bit I quoted, and (b) yes, it's fairly obvious by now that that is your point. Restating it doesn't really help anyone.


Oh, you've illustrated the reasons just fine. They haven't changed my opinion of the idea, though.


What the... what does that have to do with anything? The point I was trying to make is that it's silly to treat regions as meta-teams, which is what you're doing, because regions lack one of the most important aspects of teams.

Comparing favor regions to baseball leagues is... confusing. The leagues have competitions within themselves leading to a championship game between the winner of each league. I don't know much about baseball, but I haven't heard that being in the same league as the eventual champion unlocks a special kind of baseball you can't play otherwise.


You're missing the point again. Sure, my victory provides opportunities for others. But when I want an opportunity myself, I have to wait for someone else to hold the halls for me first. What difference does it make if they're from the same region? (Using myself as a rhetorical example for convenience, here, even though I'm pretty unlikely to win the halls or go to FoW/UW myself.)

I hear that they can't even play the World Series unless the American baseball teams wins a gold medal in the summer olympics.

That's like saying Guild Wars and Counterstrike are held together because they both use an avatar for your character - which, they are, in a very basic sense.

PvE and PvP have the same skills, same game mechanics, and often, same characters. Your analogy would have been correct if both basketball and soccer involved kicking balls into goals - which, they kind of do, in a way, just as Counterstrike and Guild Wars both involve killing other things.

If you take the sports analogy further with, let's say, basketball, PvE would be something like slam dunk contests, or playing around-the-world, while PvP would be playing a full-fledged game between two teams. Now, the former contests and games are usually thought of as training for an actual basketball game, as they help develop skills. Many Guild Wars players believe, however, would balk at the suggestion that PvE was training for PvP, which is acceptable. But you can't prevent them from encouraging PvP all the same.

I'm sorry, I guess I did. Would you please clarify then?

Humor me.

Well, of course it's restricting. If it's not restricting, there would be no game, would there? You're playing a game. Games have restrictions. The most basic ones are often called "rules." They're there for a purpose. The purpose of restricting UW and FoW to when your region has favor is to encourage PvP. It's a reward. Hence, why it's restricted.

Your second point is very valid. If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that there isn't enough to do currently in PvE, and UW and FoW are a major part of people's fun, right? I'm sure a lot less people would be complaining if there were many more great areas in PvE that people could go to that are also special. (Then again, this is largely irrelevant to the argument.) This is also clearly going to be the case, considering the amount of content that will be coming with each chapter. When there are 4 chapters out, UW and FoW would be just two more areas.



No, sorry, now that I look again, you were quoting something else. What you did quote follows from the argument I gave, and that particular bit was simply reinforcing it.


*shrug* Well, I tried. Your opinion is yours to decide.


There may be a better solution. But there does need to be a higher division.

You can't force people to PvP. Having people earn UW and FoW as a reward for their own PvP is not going to encourage anyone.

You can encourage people to PvP. Having benefits of a group winning the HoH apply to an entire region encourages more teams to PvP in general.

Thus: there has to be a division somewhere, in order to promote competition. It can't be at the individual level, because too few people would benefit. What's wrong if this division is completely arbitrary? The sample pool is large enough to basically even out most discrepancies in skill level. Perhaps a division system like the Kurzick/Luxon factions would be better, because it provides more opportunities while still promoting PvP.

Recall, of course, that the argument is to encourage PvP.

I was refering to your argument against arbitrary divisions, not using UW and FoW as a reward. "Unlocking a special kind of baseball" is irrelevant to this part of the argument.

Like I've said above, you need a division somewhere to promote competition. You're not really promoting competition when the reward is there for you no matter who wins, are you?

Let the PvP players have their reward for winning the HoH - the chest!!

Let PvE players have their own reward for their own trials!! Getting to the Alternate Entrance to the UW/FoW!!!

Here's another sports analogy. An American must join a tennis team and win the Wimbledon Cup before a another or the same American may go to the Superbowl. What? I'm guessing that analogy make as much sense to you as favor make to me.

In regards to making PvE and PvP not hate each other as much, how about a bigger picture. Encouraging the youth who play these games to hate other countries. I don't know about you, but as an American, I feel there are enough countries who hate me all ready. Thanks video game, for making this worse. Just because ANet is in the states, won't really influence them that much. For example, WalMart, an American company, is the most popular company in the world. That popularity level certainly doesn't cary through to shoppers opinion of America though. Interesting point, many things that people like about WalMart are the same things they hate about the states. Sorry for the tangent, it's semi-relevant though. My point hopefully only applies to a small minority of ignorant players, but still.

Oh man, perfect wording. You and Gaile should discuss this over lunch some day. PS - yes, I know Gaile is just the voice, not the decision maker for ANet.

I once suggested that Favor be reworked in the following way:

PvP- Once The Favor is attained during the time the Favor lasts for said region all Faction gain gains a boost. Furhtermore special PvP Only arenas are open for combat or perhaps new diffrent PvP options becomes available while Favor lasts.

PvE- No longer Favor is attained in the same manner. Let it be that a person/group of person can undertake an Epic quest in Sorrow's Furnace/Tombs. This Epic quest is diffrent for both Maps but the end should be decent to rare rewards and the Mark. Passing said quest will gain the Gods Mark on said Character who participated in said Epic quest. This Mark will last a duration of X days. During the time the Character has Mark he can freely enter UW and/or FoW. Characters who are not marked can still gain access to UW/FoW but require a very sizable amount of money to enter it.

Thats exactly what I meant, Id prefer though PvP players gaining Faction Boost while they have "Favor".

Of course not. You're comparing two different games. Read my previous post if you wanted an explanation.

What does that have to do with making PvE and PvP people not hate each other? Last time I checked, this whole regions thing wasn't divided by country.

Perhaps you missed the point. The point of having a PvE reward for PvP is to encourage PvEers to PvP, just as letting PvE unlocks carry to PvP encourages PvPers to PvE.

Letting each group have their own reward doesn't exactly do that, does it...

So you're rewarding PvE players for playing PvE and PvP players for PvP. That's great! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and in fact should happen more often. However, I'm trying to say there should also be elements that would encourage a PvE player to try out PvP, as well as a PvP player to try out PvE. The former is what UW/FoW is for right now, and the latter the unlocking system. If there was a better way to encourage people to try new things, I would gladly vote for it.

It's not like missing either will so cripple your game, people. No one's taking away something from you and giving it to someone else. The Favor system as it is now encourages people to try new things, or at least be more aware of everything. Is that so bad?

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
I read Gailes message linked to earlier in this thread
Oh man, I'm still busing up. GW IS A GAME... 6 months... she expects us to fight for it for 6 months. For consistent access that is. HA HE AH HA HA HA! Didn't they some marketing mumbo jumbo that the game was designed to be fun for casual player too? Of course, even with the faction awards increased, that still just isn't the case for PVP. But now it apparently isn't the case for PVE either. Yep, yep.... still busting up.

It's an ANALOGY, you could pick apart any analogy. Buy my point is, yeah, it makes no sense.

Nothing, it's far worse than PVP and PVE "hating" each other.

Actually, that's exactly what it's like. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a specific thing. Usually the case is I log on and want to PVP. And I can, wow! I don't have to first hope by luck the region I play on accomplished some goal better than other regions, and invite the opportunity to resent those opposing regions, which are divided by countries or groups of countries.

This topic still going on... stop wasting your time. The favour will never get removed, its part of the game and the whole frigging point of PvP and seperate regions.

There are other areas to go other than FoW and UW you know. If you just logged on to go there then tough luck.

When Europe stop owning in HoH i may get a bit annoyed at the lack of the favour, but seriously, i'll get over it. Hell by that time i might of started PvPing properly..... never been a fan of Pugs for PvP and my guild is never online...

Here is a way to make everyone happy. Remove favor from UW and FoW, and make it accessible and damn time you want. BUT, make the minimum party size 5, so farmers cant spend hour upon hour farming ectos and shards. Does no one understand this issue? If you could get to UW and FoW all the time, the economy would be screwed.

Plus, GW is designed as a PvP game, and Anet have said again and again that they want the two halves linked. Removing that main link would be stupid.

If you want favor, take your UW/FoW team and go help win favor back. "But I hate PvP!!" If that is the case, then don't whine, because this is how the game was made, and this is how it will stay.

I got myself accidently stuck in Euro districts, how sad, almost never not having favor. Sad, sad world.

Why do players have to be "encouraged" to do something they do not want to do!

If a PvP player never plays in the PvE environment, he can unlock all skills, runes, and mods.

If a PvE player logs into ToA and his region does not have favor - too bad, no FoW/UW for you! "Go play PvP if you don't like it! Oh,and since you are not Rank 6 - good luck finding anyone who will party with you. Go play with the others because we want to win the HoH. Because we want the chest and there is no other motivation for us to win, beside the Fame we will get! Whocares about you PvE players anyway!"

I seriously doubt that the favor issue has remained static for want of complainers.

It was argued over and over that the favor system is totally broken the way it is now. The favor system is probably the single most controversial feature in the game and it caused heated discussion since the day GW was released. The very fact that it totally split the game's population should be reason enough to change it even without the logical flaws it has. Anet is obsessed with it, though, and so I see little chance that it might get changed. So far they didn't care that the better part of all GW players hates it. Which is interesting because in all other instances they DID care about the players and they would change aspects in the game if enough players wanted that change.

Nevertheless I am going to make another stand against the favor system and I will collect the major arguments here in this post. Most of them I made in various posts here on this forum but maybe a single post is more readable for most persons. Here we go:

Why the favor system is both broken and bad

Part A: Why the favor system is broken

This part contains FACTS.

1. In most computer games, players play the game for in game rewards. They do certain things (like solving quests, killing enemies and so on) and get something for that (virtual gold, items, experience points and so on). I'd call it the basic principle of dealing out rewards in games. People work and they get rewarded for that work. The favor system violates this principle because it deals out rewards to people who didn't work for it and at the same time it doesn't reward the people who DID work. When a team wins favor in HoH, the "reward" is opening a completely different part of the game for players who did NOT win HoH at this time. Every player in ToA gets rewarded without working for it. At the same time, winning favor does have no meaning for the team(s) winning it because favor does not influence HA or any other part of the PvP part of the game. People might get (and are) rewarded without even trying to win HoH, ever. Therefore, the favor system is broken.
2. People arguing in favor of the current favor system would further tell you that since it's possible to go and win HoH yourself, the favor system is not broken. According to them, people have the chance to work for their own rewards. This is untrue. Guild Wars is online since one year now. There is one team winning HoH roughly every 10 minutes (that's 6 teams per hour). 360 days * 24 hours * 6 teams * 8 players = ~ 410,000 players. That is the total number of players who, in theory, could have won HoH so far. The true number is a fraction of that number because it would assume that every HoH winner did win only once. This is not the case, so the true number of HoH winners is much smaller than this. I'd estimate that it's somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 players who have won HoH so far, but I am not going to use that guess here since we're talking facts and not guesses. Guild Wars has roughly 2 million players at this time so the total percentage of people being able to influence favor can not be higher than 20% of the GW population (if you'd use my estimation for the actual number of the HoH winners, the number would be around 2-3%). Therefore, the argument claiming that people can work for favor is invalidated. Only a fraction of all GW players can do this, due to physical contraints of the system.
3. The favor system is designed to link the PvE and the PvP parts of the game. It fails to do that because the link is only in ONE direction. The PvP part of the game (HoH) does influence the PvE part of the game (UW/FoW) but in the entire game there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. It is a FACT that there is no requirement whatsoever to play PvE if you're interested only in the PvP part. All items, skills required for PvP can be gained solely by playing PvP. The is no valid argument why PvP should influence PvE when there is no similar link back from PvE into PvP. Therefore, the favor system is broken.

Part B: Why the favor system is bad

This part contains OPINIONS (you might or might not share)

1. The favor system locks the majority of all players out from interesting PvE areas (some would say, the only really interesting PvE areas) at any given time. People don't consider the ability to enter an area a reward, they consider the inablility to enter a punishment. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
2. It is impossible to play in UW/FoW with international guild teams. Since the favor systems allows only one territory at a time to enter UW/FoW, players from different territories can never play there together. Many guilds in GW are international guilds having players from different territories. The favor system disallows friends from different territories to play in UW/FoW. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
3. Since chances are that any given territory is more likely to gain favor during their primetime gaming hours, any player not able to play during these hours might never really have the chance to enter UW/FoW despite their territory might be sucessful in the system. A common example would be Australians playing on US servers since they didn't have their own servers. A system locking out players from areas pratically based on their gaming hours is.. bad.
4. Since there is no way to know in advance when a certain territory will have favor, there is no way to play UW/FoW groups in advance. Smaller guilds often rely on this sort of planning since it's the only way to get a full team together. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
5. The favor system is unbalanced. It puts territories of vastly different sizes against each other. Smaller territories have it much harder to succeed in it than large territories. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
6. The favor system simulates a virtual war between real existing countries. This is undesireable because this stimulates open racism and flaming between peoples. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
7. The favor system split the PvE and the PvP communities of the game. Pretty much all PvE only players seem to hate it while the PvP only players seem to be the only ones defending it. The favor system is the single most important source of flamewars between both playerbases. Therefore, the favor system is bad.
8. GW was designed to attract a certain type of gamer. The type who likes both PvE and PvP. In the favor system you can see that basic idea, of course. In reality GW attacts not only this type of players but it attacts pure PvE and pure PvP players as well. As a matter of fact, the "pure" type of players seem to be the majority of GW's playerbase. While this might be something that Anet didn't really see coming (I guess particulary the huge number of PvE only players did surprise them a bit), there is no good reason why this fact shouldn't be acknowledged and made part of the game now. With GW Factions, Anet moves in the right direction. Both PvE and PvP are important for alliance success. None is being favored over the other. Pure PvE can contribute and pure PvP players can contribute (and people who like both can do both). Nobody is being forced to take part in something they don't like. As it should be. The favor system is different because in it's very basic idea it forces people to do both PvE and PvP. Forcing people to do something they don't like is a bad idea. It's not work, it's a game. A game should be fun. Therefore, the favor system is bad (see note below).
9. Last but not least - and that's really my personal impression, I don't have numbers to back it up, of course - the total majority of the playerbase in GW seems to disagree with the favor system. That's more than enough reason that.. the favor system is bad.

Note: The "don't force people to do PvP if they don't want to" argument gets often attacked by the pro favor system people who will state that "GW is intended to be a PvP game". Which is not the case. There is no proof whatsoever that this statement is even close to be true and no developer or other responsible person at Anet has ever stated something like that. On the contrary, there are enough statements from Anet that both PvE and PvP are important aspects of the game.
Personally, I'd be very curious how the PvP only crowd (which is the type of players that will often claim that GW is a PvP game) would react IF the favor system wasn't broken and IF there was a link back from PvE into PvP forcing them to do something they don't like... Oh well, there was.. when GW was released, they had to play PvE to cap elite skills. They didn't really like it, as far as I can remember. The PvP only players complained long enough that Anet removed that requirement to play PvE (since then you can unlock skills with faction points). It's funny that the same players are now defending the favor system...

Note 2: Just so that you can place this post better - I am NOT a PvE purist who is bitching about having to play PvP to enter their cherished UW/FoW. I enjoy both PvE and PvP. I've solved the PvE part with 8 characters, I have a rank emote, a six digit number of Balthazar faction and I've won HoH. The question of being against the favor system has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP, it has something to do with logic and reason.

Beautiful Fantus!!!!

Well thought out and well written.

I do think that Factions is going to require PvP players to play PvE if they want to participate in the competitive arenas like the Jade Sea and Fort Aspenwood. Missions like those will cause some PvE players to pick up PvP. But I, and many in my Guild, will not try to get to the HoH in the near future. Maybe after Chapter 4 or 5. The PvP aspect with PvE characters that have had to play to unlock skills and find/buy weapons and armor is what interests me. Call it the 'grind' or whatever, but I didn't know that PvP players used to have to cap elites, maybe they should bring that back. I think that would make these forums much more 'dynamic'.

I still can't really empathize since not too long ago, it was American and Korean servers that had favor all the time. Nobody was complaining about how "We ALWAYS have favor. Why can't we do something other than make cash?" I guess I'm just bitter from those days, but whatever.

Hey now. I like the rest of your post, but no fair tarring all us PVP players with the same brush. Some of us dislike favor as much as you do.

People complain more about problems that affect them directly? Shocking!

I didn't intend to do that and I apologize if this part of my post made you think that. This paragraph was directed at the portion of the PvP community who wanted to have faction unlocks (which is a GOOD idea btw), but vigorously defends the favor system at the same time. If you are opposed to the favor system, that paragraph doesn't apply to you anyway.

Yes, nice post Fantus.

In regards to opinion 2: International guilds not being able to team up for UW/FOW areas.
There is an international guild some friends of mine joined. I would have join it too, but I'm not playing ANET's stupid "only 5 region switches" game. I like to do just a little UW/FOW, but I don't want to be restricted from doing it with guild friends, so I won't join that guild. Unfortunately. My American friends in that guild have switched regions to to play with the guild... but like I said, I won't do something major like this in a game that can't be undone. I also have a RL friend who moved to Japan, but he doesn't play the game, so I don't have to worry about that barrier I guess.

In regards to opinion 6: ANET Encouraging Racism
Yeah, this is the worst. Morally wrong IMO.

Dougal,
I remember ANETS original marketing statements about "GW not being a grind" and being able to "compete in PVP right away, with victories based on skill not hours played". Reading these two things, and knowing the history of ANET's founders, are hands down what got me to try the game. Those two things I found to be unfulfilled promises (aka. lies). Though while I call them lies, I will admit that these two statements apply to GW far more than any other RPG. As soon as I started playing the game, I discovered the PVP skill access being VERY limited until you unlock them. My point in all this is that no, I don't think elites should have to be unlocked through elites as it betrays the original promise of the game (even though it was an original element of the game). Even with the faction boost that happened so long ago, the unlocking system is still horrible. I sure hope Fort Aspenwood (I'm thinking that was the turtle siege map) and PVP maps like it aren't limited to PVE characters. It's fine at first, but then I'll be itching to play try a specific primary/secondary combo that I don't have a PVP for, and I won't want to grind a new PVE character through the game, so I can play Aspenwood a couple times with that build I just wanted to try. I think it will be limited to PVE characters though. So I think I'll wait till Factions comes out to see (from guild people who get the game) how much of this is done wrong. But if I don't get Factions, I'll probably rarely play period... which goes back to my old claim about ANET wanting to free up server space. Man that turtle siege was fun... I really hope they don't ruin it.

Sh4ft3d / NatalieD,
Yeah, just because most complainers are from a region that currently doesn't have favor, doesn't mean they liked it when their country has favor. Many have stated that they still hated it when they always had favor. One commonly only complains while chatting about things that doesn't effect them, but takes the effort to post when it does.

While I'm posting, here are some more sports analogies:
1) At a hypothetical international relays, only being able to participate in hurdles if your country wins the 50 meter dash.
2) Being at a basketball game, but only being able to buy a hot dog when your team scores the last 4 consecutive points. Stop complaining! It's a reward!

there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Free lunch? I paid for my account.

you paid to play the game as it was designed. if it is to be redesigned to suite your every demand, then the game would be pointlessly boring. where is the challenge in a game where you get everything you wish for?

you want to access FoW and UW, then do something to make sure your territory has favor. whining won't make a difference. quit it and face the reality of the game as it is. it was designed that way for that very purpose.

nice job trolling

there is a big difference between trolling and saying what is true. most of these nerf and redesign posts are really a waste of time from a whiny player base who fail to realize that the problem is not the game, but in many cases, them.

that i speak up to say so does not make me a troll.

xXa1 - go win the HoH for me. Every night between 8:00 and 11:00 PM EST. Thanks.

My comment was based on one post stating 'no free lunch', a reply from someone and then WHAM .... you had him hooked. Just thought it was funny. Didn't mean to be derogatory.

No, it's just trolling. I'd say characterizing an obviously not-insignificant number of people who all have the same general complaint as "whiny" is a troll.

Now that is trolling

"No free lunch" was a short brief comment. That's why my "I paid" was equally brief. I'm not so ignorant as to think that $50 is justification for them to design it like I want, but it is enough to refute your "free lunch" claim. It's been pointed out several times that removing favor has nothing to do with a free lunch. Can you play HA any time you want? Yes. And since your just repeating stale arguments from this thread, yes, I'd agree that your trolling.

Oh yeah, and you "pay" to enter even when you have favor.

And regarding challenge, the prime challenge IMO (my opinion being that PVP is harder than PVE), is in having the skills to go head to head with another team.

Ok, Anet please take faction based unlocking out of the game again. This guy wants to have the game back in its original state...

That's really the only line you pro favor people are able to give, aren't you? Well, it tells a lot about how weak your reasoning really is, if that's the only ammunition you guys have. None of you guys bothered to address ANY of the points raised in this thread and others (there are 12 in my post alone), but that's symptomatic for this discussion anyway. For your information - your "argument" pro favor system has been invalidated time and again...and I am sooo tired to repeat myself since you obviously don't read any posts here anyway.

Have a nice day

Do you need to encourage someone to do something they wanted to do anyway?

If a PvE player never touches the PvP environment, he can still unlock all skills, runes, mods, kill stuff, party with people, do missions, and progress the story - in short, do everything a PvE character does. Plus he gets access to all the cool unique weapons and armors, which a pure PvP player can't get.

There's limited content on both sides of the picture.

The points you made were clear, Fantus. I'd like to discuss them more.

Under Facts:
1. You're right, I can imagine it would be very inconvenient for the winners of HoH to take advantage of opening UW and FoW. If I'm not mistaken, though, don't winners of HoH get drops from a chest if they win? Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with rewarding the players in the winning region.

2. You're assuming that just because 2% of the players can win HoH, it must mean that only 2% of the players can try, and that only 2% of the players can work for favor. This is faulty logic. Point is, everyone can work for it, and the region as a collective whole gets rewarded for even one person winning.

3. That's not entirely correct. Ease of unlocking skills as well as unique weapons serve to encourage PvP people to PvE. Only difference is, most PvE people consider UW and FoW a much more integral part of their game than the comparative PvP advantages.

Under Opinions:

1. I agree. It's much better to reward people than to punish them. On the other hand, depending on the greediness of the population, rewarding the people that earn it, can just as easily be seen as punishing everyone else. It's really hard to say what people will think. Perhaps Dougal's? suggestion would be best, where those with favor can enter for free or have an easier job.

In any case, it seems a bigger issue here is the lack of other interesting areas in PvE.

2, 3, 4. Yes, these are problems, and should be fixed. Simply getting rid of the favor system is not the way to do it.

5. I believe the player pools in each region are large enough to make the quality of each region to be consistent, on average. Then again, I'm not exactly sure how teams are chosen for the HoH competitions, so there could be an inherent numbers advantage. Would anyone care to clarify?

6. Last time I checked, the regions weren't country specific. Europe certainly isn't a country, nor is America. For Korea, Japan, and Taiwan, a lot more people besides the people in the namesake countries participate. Nevertheless, you're right, it does seem to provoke racism and hostility, however irrational it may be. Perhaps something like the factions system will help ameliorate this.

7. Well, I'm pretty much a PvE player, besides a few random arenas here and there. I'm defending it for the sake of tying PvP and PvE together, not dividing it... how ironic. Nevertheless, I don't really see any PvP people actually defending it. It seems most people here would rather want Guild Wars split into two completely separate games.

8. No one's forcing anyone to do PvP. People are simply construing the reward of UW and FoW for doing PvP as punishment for not doing PvP, unfortunately. Just because GW has attracted PvE purists and PvP purists doesn't mean that people who'd like to do both should not be rewarded.

A PvE player should be rewarded for trying PvP. A PvP player should be rewarded for PvE. Not all rewards must go to completely one side or other, but it seems many people here are greedy enough to want everything to themselves.


I agree, the system isn't perfect. But the principles of the system must be preserved, for the sake of keeping Guild Wars a single game.

To (edited) chronosspawn:
1. Sure, if that's how it worked, it's perfectly fine.
2. Why not? As long as you offer plenty of other things for people to munch on in the meantime. Your "hot dog" is usually a victory cake and champagne, or something of that sort.

My PvP history I've only done the Snowball Fights and the Pre to Post Sear Academy for Prophecies.

For FPE I participated in the Jade Sea and Fort Aspenwood. I loved the PvP they have introduced in Factions. Why? Because I was able to play, and win. As a casual PvP player, going to HA and constantly being made to feel subpar becasue I started PvP later then those with Rank6+, does give me a sour taste for any connection between the HoH and the PvE environment.

I like the aspect of the unresponsive temples when we don't have Favor. Even the access to the UW/FoW from ToA when we don't have Favor. But I feel there should be access to the UW/FoW from alternate, and difficult to reach area that is open at all times.

Keep the link between PvP and PvE for minor instances. But access to two very important areas (due to the uniqueness of the drops) should, no must, be attainable as a reward for those that desire to go there.

My UW history is two failed attempts from ToA, and 4 attempts from Tombs where I got halfway through the second level.

Never even tried to get in the FoW yet.

But I do realize the requirement for a change in the way Favor affects those who do not earn it but want the rewards, and those that earn it but do not desire some aspect of the rewards.

Factions will be my PvP choice. Where the fight in the Jade Sea (example) will be with other PvE characters and will directly affect my PvE environment. Where there will not be a FoTM because of the 12vs12 with a max of 4 per team. A more random assortment of characters. Regardless of Fame/Rank/Build.

Wow, finally an informed post to discuss..

That's not entirely correct. True, a PvE player can technically beat the game without ever entering FoW/UW but it's untrue that they can get all nice weapons and armor since a lot of the unique amor and weapons are only available there. Also, and yes, you're right here, UW/FoW is probably the only real playground for people who have beaten the game. Lack of high level PvE areas is a problem all by itself and I hope it will become less severe with Factions.

That's right, when you win HoH you might get something from that chest. The chest not part of the favor system, though, so it's not relevant for this discussion. A part of the reward you get for HoH wins is the favor. But favor does not reward a PvP player in any way. So my point still stands, chest or no chest.

I made that point to invalidate the popular argument that basically states "you want favor, work for it". Yes, people could TRY to win HoH, but favor will always influenced by those 2% percent since all the people unable to win HoH don't have the slightest influence on it no matter how often they bash their heads in Broken Tower. So, no, it's not a team effort at all. A small percentage of all players has the chance to influence favor, the rest doesn't. A team effort based system would be like the alliance system in Factions. Everyone works in a small part for the greater whole. And everyone CONTRIBUTES. In the favor system, the vast majority of the people never will contribute, no matter how hard they try. It's physically IMPOSSIBLE for the majority of players to contribute. That was my point.

My point is entirely correct. It might or might not be easier to unlock skills with a mixture of PvP and PvE but this again is irrelevant. There is NO link that forces a PvP only player to play PvE. You can happily PvP in all aspects possible without ever touching the PvE part. UW/FoW doesn't encourage players to play PvP, it FORCES them to.

Even IF the favor was evenly distributed between all territories, a smaller territory still had to work way harder for it then a large one since they had to scrore more HoH victories per player than a bigger territory would have. That was my point.

Teams are not chosen for the HoH competition, they simply enter HA and try to win. You can safely assume that there are WAY more American and European teams trying to win HA then teams from Japan or Taiwan. That's why I called the favor system unbalanced.

Yes, the Factions system makes a LOT more sense than the favor system in every means possible...

Which is exactly what it is.

I do both PvE and PvP. But I don't do it at the same time, since that's not possible. So at any given time I am either a PvP or a PvE player even if I love to do both. When I am doing PvE, I can't influence favor and maybe not enter UW/FoW because there's no favor. Therefore I curse at the favor system when I want to do PvE and it restricts me from going to UW/FoW. When I do PvP I can influence favor but I don't get rewarded for favor since it doesn't affect me when I am doing PvP. Honestly, the favor system doesn't reward anyone, not even the players it's meant to reward.

Agreed. I am the very last person who wants to seperate PvE and PvP totally (why would I, after all I love to do both). The GW Faction system does make a lot of sense in that regard. Both PvE and PvP influence the state of the game but nobody is forced to do anything they don't like. THAT's the way to go. As for the favor system, I am not sure if it can be repaired since it has too many faults. Personally, I'd make the reward of having favor a PvP reward such as more faction points for teams of the favor holding territory. What would connect PvE and PvP and still not locking out anyone from anything would be to increase XP points for PvE players, maybe (or increased cash drops or so). However, there HAS to be a similar connection added from the PvE part into the PvP part, too. Currently there is no such thing which is the most important reason why the favor system fails to do what it was designed to do - link BOTH parts of the game together. The current system links PvE to PvP but not the other way around. Which cannot justified by any means.

Banin Galori, are you even trying to pay attention to what others are saying? Or are you just looking inward to your own close minded view?

It's all ready been said that some people log on with the intent of wanting to play FOW or UW. In those cases, that is what they want to do.

Was this an issue? I play mostly PVP, but I don't mind only PVE getting the unique armor/item skins.

Ok, have the chest drops be the great "reward" then. It's reward enough.

You are twisting Fantus's logic around to make the numbers sound far lower than Fantus suggested. The point isn't the numbers anyways. Dougal Kronik illustrated the point well when he said "going to HA and constantly being made to feel subpar becasue I started PvP later then those with Rank6+, does give me a sour taste for any connection between the HoH and the PvE environment."

You are exactly right. In fact, I'm living proof of starting with PVE for that exact reason. Still took me hundreds of hour to unlock everything for PVP, and that's when I started enjoying the game. So I wouldn't say "ease" but rather, "easier".

Ah good, you listened here Dougal's suggestion is perfect IMO.

No one ever argued this point. A region is not necessarily a country, but it is always composed of countries. Europe and America are continents, and you can still establish ethnic hatred by having continents, or sets of countries, hate each other. And as stated before, this does not apply to all players feelings, but some.

I guess I've never been convinced that having removing favor would make Guild Wars two completely separate games. Not letting PVE players participate in PVP, or not allowing PVP players to participate in lv20 PVP would split them into two separate games more so.

This "reward" thing. It doesn't feel like a reward to me, it feels like a coincidence. And the "region" thing; because people in my country or continent or set of countries did well in some other aspect of the game, I can enter. The country or continent or set of countries should make no difference. The GW world is not on Earth, there is no Europe in GW. There's a Tyria and a Cantha.

Well for starters, it wasn't Dougal who said that. Secondly, if you really see some sort of logic in #1, mind giving me a drag of what your smoking? Finally, with #2, as before, you are just proving that you will rip apart any fitting analogy that doesn't fit your view.

I'm trying to say that the ability to win HoH isn't set in stone. People can improve in skill, and by doing so, stand a chance at winning and influencing favor. Nevertheless, I suppose you're right. HoH is a bit too far-end of a PvP competition for most PvEers to manage. And I agree completely, a system where people can always contribute will be much better.

Of course, my point wasn't that UW and FoW doesn't force all PvE people to play PvP. Rather, I was trying to say that playing UW and FoW itself isn't all that crucial to PvE, and that you can happily PvE in all aspects possible without touching UW or FoW. Nevertheless, it seems that most people consider the areas to be crucial to their PvE enjoyment, so I concede the point. I don't consider the favor system to be the primary culprit here though - rather, a general lack in good PvE areas is the more basic issue.

I see. In that case, you're definitely right, a significantly larger region would flood out competition through sheer numbers. Again, yes, the factions system seems better in this case.


Again, I think this problem is caused more by the lack of good alternative areas. And again, people can construe one as the either.


This is once again an issue of considering no access to UW/FoW as a punishment rather than access to UW/FoW as a reward. In its current state, I suppose I can see why people consider it a punishment. Once again, I believe there's a deeper issue at play here.


Oooh, I really like your idea of increasing XP or gold gains for the region with favor. And yes, there should be a better link from PvE into the PvP part too... though how it works might be a bit more difficult to work out. After all, any advantage bestowed to PvP from PvE would likely be considered an unfair advantage. Perhaps increased Faction would work.

chronosspawn,

I'm afraid your first arguments make little sense to me. Could you clarify what you mean?

If I'm not mistaken, Fantus' estimate was around 2-3%, but stuck with a conservative 20% to prove the point. I'm assuming Fantus' preferred estimate, for the sake of being conservative. And you're right, the numbers don't really matter for my argument.

Dougal's legitimate complaint doesn't lie with the Favor system. It results from the poor, rude state of many PvP players right now. While it is a problem that needs to be corrected, it is hardly relevant to the discussion.

Sorry for the mistaken attribution! I'll fix it immediately.
1. I would, but it would be illegal.
2. I'm not ripping apart your analogy, I'm simply saying that your analogy works, and happens in real life.

Um... If you DO do PvP, and you DO influence favor, then the next region has to win 5 times to take it off you. That is 50 minutes. I'm quite sure you can switch between characters, so I don't see what you are complaining about.
Don't have favor = use PvP character
Get favor while PvPing = use PvE character

I'm a PvE'r, so I'm too lazy to read all the posts.

That said, I like favor. To us non-pvp it makes winning halls something to be proud of. If I see the same team for a while, it really impresses me. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I was in Fow/UW nearly every night for 4 months. One time waiting for favor I decided to experiment with builds. Especially solo builds, I actually had fun. Who knew you could play GW without having favor.

There is too much to the game to live solely in FoW or UW, go explore, finish DNKP or Titan's Source (we know you haven't yet) or even do some PvP. Keep favor and all the glory it brings.