Sit-Outs and Why Anet might not break any records with Factions...

Welcome to the forums ZenMonkey!

I was very interested by your points. Oblivion indeed looks like a solo-ers delight and i've been pining after it for a couple of months. The only problem is its system requirements which to someone like me pose a major issue. To upgrade my computer to be able to play it...well the price would be phenomenal. To play it on an Xbox360, well I don't see $650 (Aus) to play one game as being value for money.

Thus GW provides an adequate alternative for me. It's much cheaper compared to Oblivion and it runs perfectly on my current set-up.

This wasn't made as an attack on you mentioning Oblivion but rather to just speak my mind about Oblivion and Factions cost comparison. Think of your point as the match that lit my thoughts!

Allow me to clarify: "I think Anet really screwed up the RP portion in Prophecy" that made it (near the end) and less gripping game. Which in turn decrease the interest in Factions.

We TRIED it (or rather I tried it, enjoyed it, and convinced others to try it). The main reason I tried it is that I've been interested in MMORPG for a while and it had been the monthly fee that bothered me. Since GW doesn't have a monthly fee, I figure I try it and see what the genre is about.

WasAGuest-

Thanks for the warm welcome. IMHO you don’t need to apologize for your opinions. It’s a shame people are so quick to jump to calling someone a whiner when they give good feedback.

I just happened to be on the other end of the spectrum. I'm looking for a competitive pvp experience.

I wish Oblivion would make an elder scrolls game where you could have some freinds play with you over the internet.

Thanks for the history of the game. I just always assumed guild wars implied the game was focused on pvp guild battles.

Im looking at factions purely from a pvp perspective. Allowing access to specal instances sounds like a decent reward for winning since you really cant give good rewards because of balancing issues.

I can completely understand the disappointment to fans of the original since the series seems to be changing focus to the part of the game your not into.

I’m looking forward to factions and hearing people scream noob and ownage. I find it amusing. I’m sure ill be hearing a lot of it screamed at me the first month!

Hopefully, they either find a balance so you can join in the fun on this chapter or make chapter 3 more pve oriented then keep switching back and forth. If the developers are listening I say more power to you posting your thoughts.

Intera-
Thanks for the Welcome. I guess I take some things for granted. My work laptop is a powerhouse meant for Engineer software, and i have a 360 at home as well. Its too bad the requirements are so steep, because the game is pretty amazing IMHO.

I must admit as well since i didnt play the original guild wars, I might not understand how casual the first game was for those who just wanted to play some pve with a few friends. WOW is suposed to be considered casual but if you want to go to high end instances you need a large group of players and it stops being casual once your reach the lvl cap. Guild wars sounds casual in comparison so for me its a step in the right direction while to some of the old schoolers it might be a step in the wrong direction.


Althought I have to ask, are mmrpgs really suposed to be as casual as some want? If you just want to just pve it why not just play a regular rpg that allows multiple players to play at the same time? A MRPG if you will, Bioware's games for instance (although I know they are far and few between). Maybe some clever developer will make a game like that but with episodic content.

Please dont take that as an atack. Im just wondering if perhapse that's what PVE players are really looking for?

I've played GW:P for 1355 hours in 11 months.

- I have 0 fame.
- I've played a contented amount of RA PvP.
- I've not set foot in the FoW, UW, replacement HoH, or Sorrow's Furnace.
- The only special 'non-holiday' item I've acquired is an icy dragon sword.
- It took me 9 months to ascend my first character.
- I just ascended my third character.
- I'm maybe 90% complete on UAS.
- I'm maybe 90% complete on having a character that has uncovered every inch of the map.

Future Goals: Get into some hardcore PvP and explore the four high end areas.

.

If GW:F has the exact same amount of content, that's fine with me because that's another year of enjoyable game playing

Maybe you guys just play too much/fast or don't set goals?

Ah, my apolagies! and fair point.
well, this was my point.. your friends were never going to buy it in the first place until you convinced them. So they are kinda gona rely on your opinion with factions. so until you HAVE bought it and tried it, you still dont know if your friends will end up buying it or not

If what we see as true for Factions, you should love it.


For me it's the multiplayer aspect of it. Having come from EQ (out of it's beta) and played for too many years to remember, GW was a breath of fresh air. As WoW had those high level (end game) quests, EQ was at the time, king of level grind, item farm and all that I've become bored with. Jumping into GW with it's low level cap and items accessable by find or collector, I was able to focus less on the 100 hours farm for item X and the camp area X to reach level 60. This allowed me the benefit of playing the game with friends without the "bleh" or boredom.
There are indeed other rpg's with a semi-tossed in multiplayer aspect, NWN comes to mind as really the only real good one (an opinion of mine), but none to a really good scale such as this.
In knowing this, one can see my angle on the game: Multi-player means Oblivion will hold my attention only so long (a year or so maybe). Farming for items or exp (Fame and Faction Points in GW) becomes boring. That leaves the quests and missions for me to enjoy and we already know, some of that is locked out due to design.

ok, stopping know before I ramble you into boredom. hehe

My wife would agree to that. hehe

IMHO PVE people want character development, advancement, usually displayed by levels (stats and/ or better equipment). The more advancement possible here, the less they can play together. GW tries to keep the player base close together - you grow up fast, after that your options grow instead of your strength. But even here there's some bitching about the level cap needed for this.

On the other side of the spectrum you can only make a limited amount of story content. This is much more expensive to create than fighting levels, and I can't imagine someone playing 500 hours of Jade Empire.

Character advancement is an easy goal and implicit reward. I'm rewarded just for playing (and maybe for not dying). Other rewards are in comparison much harder to create for developers.
I agree with WasAGuest here, its a good thing I can concentrate on playing instead of leveling. If the fighting content feels different for each class and different group compositions, then I have a lot of replay value here. Story replay value is, erm, limited.

If a developer can pull it off then he's a 'made man' - players subscribing for content generates a constant, reliable revenue (very much like an MMO, but with less cost for infrastructure). But I'm a sceptic here.

This has turned into a great discussion. Amazing what happens when people discuss points rather than resort to personal attacks!

I've played about 3,000 hours, I've only Ascended two characters, and I technically have never actually "finished" the game (the Island of Fire quests remain undone, as do the bonus Glint quests). I have been to UW twice, didn't like it, made up a new character instead.

I think Factions is going to be a lot of fun even without all the Alliance battles and such. I mean, I'm going to try that stuff out, but that's not the main selling point for me. New classes, new skills, new tactics, new quests, oh, and the new shiny weapons and armor are the main things I'm after.

So, although Anet is making an effort to link PvP and PvE, I don't think Factions will force you to play PvP. Sure, you'll miss out on some content, just like PvE only players miss out on some content now. But there sounds like there will be plenty for PvE only players to do, even with all the Alliance battle talk.

Amazing yes... /sarcasm but my hot dogs and steaks remain uncooked and Loviatar didn't get to model his ever famous "asbestos jammies" /end sarcasm - hehe

For those interested, really good interviews of Jeff Strain at vgmfusion - Episode 46 and 47 had me rather doubtful on Factions, but episode 48 gave me some hope. Again, though, I'll rely on you all for the players info.

Just thought I would share the link for those not knowing where it was. Enjoy.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse here, but I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you play the same game for a while, you will get sick of it. Well, yes. That happens with every game. Guild Wars is no exception. Although it's been a year and I still play the game every day... having a good guild and friends makes that better. Regardless, Chapter 2 is not an expansion in the traditional sense of the word. It is an entirely new game with content equal to the original game. I'm surprised to see all of the negative comments in this thread, honestly. I pre-ordered the game as quickly as I could, and I am very excited to play it.

I hope to see many of you in Factions next week!

I preodered even though I was dissapointed at the utter lack of new features. No auction house, No friends list messaging system, ect. Things that even free games have.

It does seem people want this game to become like Diablo.

How many people who played that actually reached level99? Most got sick of the damn thing before then, specially since once you picked your skills they were fixed.

Lvl20 is a perfectly fine max level. You have plenty of health, plenty of stat points, plenty of skills to choose from. I'm just thankful they removed the 'Refund Points' thing.

There is a Friends list, and you can chat, but you're right, no message leaving or auction house in Factions.

However, the good news is these things will be free to everyone when they come out, NOT linked to a specific Chapter. That's a better solution anyway, I'd rather wait and have everyone have access than to only have an Auction house for those who bought Factions!

Wrong thread? I don't think anyone here is arguing for a higher level cap...

Interesting points but doesn’t MMRPG the first M for Massive imply that a large group of players have to work together to meet a certain goal? I can understand being put off by the lack of maturity of certain players taking away from the fun but seriously if you want to play a MMRPG your going to have to put up with it.

IMHO to make an mmrpg an mmrpg you either need to include stuff that takes a large group effort to unlock certain areas (the war effort in wow for instance) or have some kind of pvp function. There has to be some kind of large interaction between players.

Otherwise it’s an MRPG. I’m not arguing that the ones out there aren’t lacking in function but maybe there’s a market out there that is just waiting to be filled. This would allow developers to focus on better story lines and not have to worry so much about balancing issues. No one can deny single player rpgs get way cooler powers!

Semantics I know.

I understand I’m an outsider looking in. Many of you fell in love with certain aspects of the first game and find it lacking in the second one. Hopefully they will hear your complaints and try to fix them or you’ll play the game and find out some of your concerns weren’t warranted.

I know the attitude of you shouldn’t get to play x instance because you didn’t earn it, its a huge debate on WOW. But lets be honest the reason WOW is doing so well is because of all the casual players. If guild wars decides to leave casual players behind it’s only going to hurt sales in the long run. I’m pretty excited about the direction Factions is going but it’s a shame it looks like it will be alienating a group of devoted GW players.

Technically, Anet refers to Guild Wars as a CORP: Competitive Online Role-Playing Game. But, I get your point.

EDIT: or is it Cooperative? Where's Loviatar when you need him! Community would also work...
I can't see how WoW attracts "casual" players. The grind, the 60-level cap, the high level content and armor quests all scream "hardcore" to me.

Not to say there aren't "hardcore" players in Guild Wars, but the beauty of it is you don't have to be hardcore to enjoy it! No monthly fees, with collector's items and armor means I can play as little as I want and have max armor and weapons and still have fun.

According to a RL friend that got me hooked on GW and then left for WoW (the block head) so he and his wife could join up (and too think, I intruduced them.. grrrr), he claims the early game is very casual and easy to play. No experience in it myself, so that's second hand. ZenMonkey could confirm that or refute it for accuracy.

Hmm, partially. It doesn't have to be competitive though. I posted this in Sanitarium some time ago and watched it go no where... but the thought was:

Rather than the challenge missions or competitive missions; adopt a pure co-op mission with multiple goals randomly handed out to several small teams (ie, 3 teams of 4). Each team works to accomplish it's goals during the same mission.
One very easy example is that "open the gate" with pre-searing Chapter 1. The players need to work together to open the gate. What if an entire team needed to battle their way to a "gate switch" and allow the other team(s) entrance; while those waiting to get in hold off wave after wave of foes.

It could be elaborated on and would need tweaking to get it to work, but instead of creative PvE, the competitve forces of darkness swept in...

This of course enters into the realm of "could've would've" and so means little unless it's adopted further down. But, the point was, rather than teams pitted against each other, teams could be placed together to fight ever more powerful foes and challenges.... I think you kinda hinted at that though as well...

Actually, now that you mention it... there are these things as well. Gaile mentioned that the missions where the Kurzick and Luxom work against Shinto require the opposing faction teams to work together. I'd forgotten about that until the memory kick.

Mordakai -

Either way the word competitive is used in the description

I agree with you on the points brought against WOW. However a large base of WOW players are casual players. You can do most instances up to lvl 50 with 3 players. You can get to lvl 40 with just two players. There are a lot of lvl 60 players that feel left out because high-end instances aren’t for the casual player. Your looking at 20+ man raids where you have to have the right gear just to survive. That means regrinding the same instance to ensure every guild member has good gear to move on to the next. It got so boring replaying MC for 900th time I chose to play the pvp portion instead , hence my curiosity for Factions.

Anyways I digress, it’s because of the casual players you see Blizzard making raids more difficult but needing less players to participate. They have adjusted to the needs of the casual players because quite frankly that’s where most of their income is coming from.

Anyways I see all your points and a lot of them are the reason I’m interested in GW. A game where skill is the winning factor and not gear. But for me it’s the competitive aspect that draws me.

WasAGuest-

Excellent ideas. I think there is room for both competitive gameplay and teamwork gameplay.

Factions seemes to be adressing the complaint of most reviews that pve and pvp seemed like seperate ideas. Factions seems to mainly be adressing these complaints.

Ofcourse reviewers are usually hardcore gamers

Really? Let me go get something to mop up the drool... ok, back.
If you can find a link for that, please share it. I've been really looking forward to something like this. More of this kind of thing would be a sure fire way to get me towards getting Factions. - I would die laughing it was in the FPE and I missed it in my rushing about. lol

Course, was she meaning that those alligned with Kurzicks and Luxons would just eventually just ignore each other's "faction" as all players really did in Chapter 1? IE. the lore of Chapter 1 - we were all supposed to be tied in one way or another to a guild that only just came together to fight the Charr... I wonder. Yea, please share that if you can find it. I've not seen anything like it mentioned before I posted it.

Speaking of memory jogs: This sort of applies to some people's fear of the PvP and PvE intergration. In that flop of a game Asheron's Call 2, there were areas where main quests took place and the fool devs placed these areas within PvP flagged zones. This resulted in PvEers spending an hour or so getting a group together, heading towards the quest area and getting wiped out by gankers (those who had built their characters to take out players rather than survive a mob attack - game was really unbalanced). Not only did this utterly destroy the PvEers enjoyment of the game, it made many permanetly wary of griefing*. Unfortunatly, due to this, griefing has been linked to PvP. Both of which are vastly different. Up untill Factions, I haven't seen this sort of situation "hinted" at, and that was good.
In Factions, however, I have seen mention of this play style in the competitive missions, that each team has goals that need to be done and "skirmishes" may take place. This is only slightly different from the griefing that took place in AC2... hence many peoples* distaste for those upcoming missions.

*Griefing was the worst in Diablo, which also is the game Jeff Strain bragged about griefing someone in. So it's no wonder many people are wary of that.

Why did I bring that up? Well, conversation really, but also to ask if that is how the competitive missions are supposed to work. My play in Jade, as said before, was limited: I dropped several times due to verbal abuse (that was entertaining - hehe); my team got attacked before really getting into doing anything and everyone but me dropped as soon as the score went south (like losing a match was the end of the world or something /shrug) and then finally the other team completely dropped out when we got ahead... ahh good times. Opinions?

Ack I love the PvE vs PvP arugments...

This game is PvE and PvP both. The developer in the radio interview even said some of the new mixed PvE and PvP content was to help because there aware the Pve "Only" and PvP "Only" don't get a long at times.

This game allows you to do both. PvE Only, PvP Only or to get the full experience the game can offer you can do both.

WasAGuest -

Yes that can be a cause for concern. But in past games there was a huge imbalance between pvp players. Certain players would camp lower players for the "fun" of it. But with Factions stlye of equalizing players I see it as less a frustration. Unless you cant get a group of guys you enjoy playing with together.

Assuming that this is true, then some PvErs were correct in their complaints. Anet was really trying to coax them to PvP. I feel silly defending Factions on that reason now.(assuming that its true)

Omega, I would invite you to listen to Jeff's interview. He claims to be a mainly PvE guy, who just likes to explore and play at his own pace. But, he also says there's staff members who are hardcore PvP only guys. They have the same... discussions as we do here.

So, yes, unless Jeff is just outright lying, they do intend to satisfy both camps. (Technically, you don't even have to play PvP to get exclusive access to town's Elite missions. You can earn Faction through PvE only quests, so it could be possible...)

Agreed, but if that was the answer for my question, my question was more poorly worded than I thought. My bad. hehe

Bummer, I rambled rather than make my question more clear... umm, how bout this way?

If my group is trying to get to a goal within a competitive mission (note: I'm a PvE players that despises PvP and competitive play, and here I am, attempting to adapt my play style and play the game fully without my self imposed limitations) is the entire instance a free-for-all killing zone with goals put in place rather than number of kills? Are there safe zones? Do you have to engage the other team? Are there... well, easier, how should it work? Cause in the FPE, it didn't seem to work and in all honesty, was one of the worst game times I had in GW.

Edit: - probably trying on new asbestos jammies - Gotta love his since of humor. It is competitive from what Jeff Strain has said in the past, but his definition of it was... well, odd if I recall. I'll have to go find it, cause it didn't even mention anything about PvP in his statement.

WasAGuest-

I could only assume it would be much like WOW.

In WOW there are contended areas and if your on a pvp server the oposite faction can atack you at will and you can atack them at will.

Now within these areas are many missions. You go about doing your mission and you might run into oposition in which case your fight or flee.

Kind of sounds similiar to what factions is including from the statements made. Wont know till i play it! =)

In terms of people dropping out. Unfortionatly you have to put up with that in all kinds of games. It definatly sucks and its not very fun. Might come down to having to join a guild and guild being honorble enough not to drop. Some guilds become more established and kick out members that drop frequently. THen those guilds play each other. All though that wont do much for the casual player I guess =(

Ooops, I stand corrected. GW is a CORPG. Jeff Strain as simply said it is not a traditional MMORPG, rather it is a CORPG. The "C" meaning cooperative or competitive. However, the "official" FAQ does state they (Anet) prefers it called competitive.

linkies:

wiki
faq
CVG

Good news for people wanting new character slots to play with! They are up for purchase starting this summer; see guildwars.com for the info.

Edit: can't spell, can't add... I'm in trouble. lol

I pre-ordered it, but don't plan playing it as much as I did the original. I hardly play any anymore, so I don't see myself buying GW3 at all. Frankly, I've lost all interest...

Actually IT DID happen in the FPE(atleast what I experienced). Whenever you got close to the line with Kurzick as a faction, Luxon ambushers would popup every so often like the Oni did and would say something like "you can't take us all". And then promptly get their butts kicked. IF you were Luxon favored, some other type of jackal looking monsters attacked.

But those were NPCs and not players. And I don't know if its going to be in the final game.

Can't be like that... instanced zones, remember? There are missions where you have to race the opposing faction to a goal, and part of achieving that is to slow them down while working to succeed yourselves.. but there's hardly any ganking going on. The mission where you escorted the jade carriers is a prime example.

So no, could never be a WoW or Diabloesque go-outside-and-get-ganked world.

Thank Baalthazar.

The reason I thought of it, was that while I was in Jade, and everyone but me (on my team) dropped, I sat there talking to the other team. They didn't come after me, so I thought I might have been in some sort of safe zone... either that or they just didn't see a point in coming after just one person. hehe

Thanks for answering - this is a good community of players

Side note: Escorted..? that's what I was supposed to be doing? lol - yea, I'm good at those competitive missions alright... I'm gonna go sit in a dark corner for a bit.

I never said Factions was an expansion, but it certainly is not an entirely new game in the sense of what you would experience if you were to buy a new game by another developer. Guild Wars is still Guild Wars. Those of us who have played Prophicies will be familiar with the play style, graphics, skills, game engine and so on.

Far less than half my guild (over 60 members) will be buying factions for the reason I stated before, they've played enough Guild Wars and moved on to other games. I would say that's pretty relevant to my point, which was that many people who bought Prophecies will not be buying Factions.

But that's not to say that Factions will not sell better than Prophecies did, because there will still be many people who will purchase both chapters (myself included) and many who will buy Factions only.

I'll pay the price only because it will be worth it with my existing account. I would not buy factions seperatley because I don't know if there's enough factions only content to make it good enough for a stand alone game. I liked ANet's idea with the whole thing, i'd never seen that before, I just think maybe more content should be added to factions if it is going to stand alone.

It's not like WoW where both sides are completely cut off from one another. In WoW the two sides can't even talk to one another in the same language.

Also WoW has a few area's that are "disputed" (depending on your server type) and the rest of the map is static.

From what we understand nothing will be static in this game. Nor will you be "killed on sight" in certain area's just because you do not have enough faction with that race.

All in all it sounds more Like FFxi Online's conflict system. Where every week, points were asaigned to every area baised on the activities in them. To see which of three faction "controled" the area.

This effected very little really....cost you a bit more gil to set a resurrection point, You could teleport to outposts of controled territorties, and a few other things..but nothing earth shattering or game breaking. Half the time you didn't even notice or care.

Anet is good at making things that are pretty much just "bragging rights".

The amoutn of content is "roughly the same" according to interviews. If you basing you Opinion of content on the Preveiw event, you should know we started 1/5 of the way through the chapter and they removed the ENTIRE SECTIONS between the port city and the two faction towns.

Think of the Marketplace as the "Lion's Arch" and the two faction main cities as "Dorknar's Forge" and you get the Idea.....

If your still skeptical take a look at this map that contains ALL the areas: (it's a huge JPEG so it's best to rick-click "save as" then view it with a program you can zoom with.)

http://www.guildportal.com/ContentCo...t ionID=76754

also keep in mind that does not show all the hidden area's like UW, SF, FoW

By this definition GW is massive, because giantic numbers of players are fighting for favor to unlock areas for their region. Factions seems to take this interaction even further.
I tend to ignore the ANet marketing speak. Of course they want to coin a new term (CORPG) to avoid stupid comparisons with existing MMOs.

In WoW (except for the AC event) battlefields are meaningless. You farm rank like other people farm items, but this doesn't change the world at all. [like for example unlocking an outpost in the contested territories would, if you keep winning the regions BF]. There are world events and world named bosses which 'could' be included in GWs instanced system, if design deems them desirable.

Its interesting that in a similar discussion in riverside (the "game world" thread), we were more concerned about the "persistent" part of wiki's MMORPG definition. I argued that the world as a whole is persistent (because prices, favours, rankings persisted) even though every zone is instanced. Its even more massive that WoW, as WoW has countless world instances (servers), and I can't interact across server borders.

The actual distinction is then, how many people should be able to interact at once? Ok, in WoW I can have the AQ event with hundreds of players from both factions in a big communion. X-roads or Tarrens Mill raids with dozends of players. [I remember halloween events in UO, with ghosts and undead raiding the save city zones, those were the days ]

But then in practice my computer goes catatonic because he can't handle the number of objects and effects. In WoW the usual group size is five which is all a casual player ever needs. Computers with less than 1 MB may stutter horribly when entering the main cities (like 20 frames per minute or less...)

So the question of which game is more massive is academic (though interesting, I admit). In GW 100 players can interact at the same time, but only in settlements (removing equippment and effects for performance), and I can meet anyone playing GW ingame. In WoW I must be on the same server to interact with someone, but then I can have 40 player raids and hundreds of players fighting at the same time (which my comp can't handle).

As mentioned above I see instancing as a technical (and design) detail to reduce grieving and improve performance, not genre defining.

@Mordakai:
WoW is actually two different games in one. Leveling up is casual, because leveling contains the reward in itself and there are lots of motivating quests. No need to ever group with more than 1 or 2 people. Also you don't bother with equipment too much because it gets obsolete fast.
When you hit 60 and the EP bar stops moving, you basicaly start throwing time at items or ranks (aka grinding). This is where the game gets hardcore for most players, because the best rewards can only be gained withing huge, organized, effective groups. When you just hit 60 you're not competitive because you don't have the items that incredibly increase your char's performance. And the roleplay part is also, erm, negligible for most players, even on dedicated RP servers.

I think the real underlying problem is quite straightforward. The players.

If you go to the temple of ages when you have favour it's always trapper groups, 55 monks with a SS necro for the uw. With this fissure, it's always '2 warriors, one stance tan for book trick, SS/BR necro, ele nukers, healer monk and a bonder monk' and of course, the barrage teams.

Already a class is (very often) ignored, and mesmers never get parties easily. (despite the fact they can demolish things with alarming ease)

What I'm trying to say is I think the underlying problem is the fact that these sorts of parties work so well. If the new areas have enemies and situations that dramatically reduce the effectiveness of these usual groups and makes the mesmer (and the assassin and ritualist) desirable choices, then we'll hopefully see more diverse parties, and hence there will be more choices. I found the tombs really good fun at when they were first corrupted, because a team with not just monks, warriors and eles that echo casted meteor shower, while it did okay, didn't seem to do as well as a group with a necromancer, ranger and mesmer in the group in instead of all those eles. It made the game fun again, because you suddenly weren't playing the game I'd been playing since 'tanks, monks eles' parties had become the staple party for the game.

I think this might be relfected in factions with the Assassin. After all, if the enemy assassins can just blink to the spellcasters, straight through the warriors who's roles have become 'be a meatshield and bog them down while the ele echo casts meteor shower' then that's really going to change the dynamics of the game.

Thanks Dove_Song. Is that the entire map? Seems much smaller than I imagined it would be. Not a knock against it since the content is "smooshed" in there tighter - could be good if you like running all over creation less.
On a really positive thought, look like there's room for more Chapter "tie-in's" (later chapters) as the map suddenly stops in the south...

The question I now have, is this: I count (and this was done quickly and we all know I can't add - heh) 18 or so actual missions on the map (didn't count the ones marked such as Jade). How many of those 18 are actual co-op missions, non-elite? Anyone have that info yet?

Yeah, the primary objective was to capture the jade quarries and protect the jade carries while they returned 10 jade bundles to your base. Now, if you were losing, you could always kill the enemies carries to slow them down. But then, they can do that to you, so you need to protect yours as well as stop theirs...

That's the mission I truly came to appreciate snare trap. Nice, quick 5 energy AoE cripple.

But it required true teamwork to be effective. Some folks would do their best to defend while others went on the offensive. Some would also word at capturing the enemies Jade quarries to slow their production and boost yours. It was a true PvE/PvP blend, and even a 95% PvE person like myself had an absolute blast. It actually was easy to see the other team as intelligent NPCs. Ah yes... NPCs... you did have to fight them as well.

Good times... good times...

Without highjacking the thread, I just want to point out that my mesmer (Canus Minor, if anyone sees me...) does FoW nightly and it doesn't take long to get into a group. Someone commented a couple days ago in ToA how rare it is to even find a mesmer there. But I have a nice damage/interrupt build that does it's own energy management nicely, and Shatter Hex is a beauty skill with the book trick (Plus Energy Surge... that armor ignoring AoE damage of over 200 pts to everyone attacking the bookie in less than three secs...).

But really... any groups that don't want a mesmer in FoW I probably don't want to group with in the first place. The ones I do run with, we do well. Three shards in one run last night...

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread topic.

Just to add another point to the "competitive" vs "cooperative" debate:

There is nothing in Guild Wars forcing you to be competitive. As mentioned, there are no areas (not missions, mind you, but like whole areas) where you can be ganked by other players.

In addition, if you do decide to enter a competitive arena, where you can be "killed" by other players, there is no permanent penalty. No XP loss, no items loss, not even time loss, as you can just be ressurrected, or failing that just drop an re-log in (although I don't encourage dropping a match just because you are losing).

Anet has made PvP a painless as possible, IMO, while still keeping it interesting. Which, when you think about it, is a huge achievement in itself.

I obviously didn't have the fortune of grouping with you or anyone that had a clue... ie, were as clueless as I was. heh - I probably would have a greater feel for the missions if that had been the case. No use crying over spilled milk though.
Would you mind a PM about that mesmer build you are using?

Further adding to Mordakai's post: I agree, Anet doesn't so much as force a play style on anyone, they do however have a sly way of pushing one into doing something to gain what a player might want as a goal.
As always, read that for what it is. Players' personal goals (not game dev goals) and players' play styles. The elite missions are the best example right now. PvE wants them, in some cases badly for whatever their reason (mine is challenge - I have a monk in fire isle now with only 9 deaths... see I still play ). But for PvE players to get those Elite missions, it's gonna require a lot of something that they don't enjoy. Whether that be farming, PvPing... whatever. Bah, that brings us back to the "work" feel of "earning it"... so... yea. No need to beat that poor horse again.

Edit: I admit I have, and will in the future, used the word "force", but that's mainly for lack of a better word. For me, forcing one to play a way to gain something is not literaly forcing (physically or mentaly), it's more a "force" due to lack of alternative options to gain a goal set by myself.