Cookie-cutter group mentality

Why is it that some players are convinced that the only way to beat a particular mission or quest is with a particular set of professions and skills? I spent so much playing time over the weekend trying to get into groups for the ring of fire missions that it was crazy, and it makes me understand why players have called for a better way to form groups. When I have a few hours to play a game, I want to spend that time playing, not hanging around towns waiting for that one elusive player to finally join. People are always calling for a very specific type of player. Sure you can change your skills on the fly, but I hate going out with a new build cold turkey because I'm not likely to be all that efficient at using it.

I've ended up in some pretty unconventional PUGs and had a lot of fun beating missions with them. My warrior beat Hell's Precipice with a group that consisted of six warriors and two monks. Not a Winter among us. We had a LOT of fun, yet yesterday, when another one of my characters was trying to get into a group, everyone was calling for 'ranger with winter'. In another place, they were calling for an SS necro, for a mission that I usually hench very easily without an SS necro in sight. I did a mission once with a PUG that consisted of 4 elems, a necro, and a monk. As the group leader said when we started, "This will be interesting." It was. Not only did we beat the mission easily, but it was so much fun to see what happens when four firestorms rain down at once, or four meteors, or whatever. Yet for this same mission, you'll see groups calling for anything but nukers. I've even been out in successful groups without *gasp* a monk. Is it lack of imagination? Are they following a walkthrough, convinced there's only one way to complete each mission?

And yeah, for a game like Guild Wars, there's got to be a better way to form groups than spamming chat (for when guildies aren't available or aren't applicable).

Ok, first about the cookie cutter builds. The reason average GW players like them is because they are 13-year old kids who don't better or people who are so ignorant they refuse to believe anything can beat a MM and SS in SF. But, on another point. The reason people like monks, is well, because they can HEAL!!! Yes, other classes ave self healing, but almost always not enough to stand up to a mob of similar level monsters. Without a monk in many cases, certain quests and missions are anything but simple or possible.

Hi

I believe there are several parts to this:

1 if you play a tried and tested build, there will almost certainly be someone looking for you at a mission
2 the tried and tested builds work, and have been proved to work, why change a hing that isnt broken (not my personal view btw)
3 people in a tried and tested build normally dont have to be as skilled as those in a substandard build
4 things are quite oftne quicker in the standard groups (to get through the actual mission that is)

I think the major point is number 3, almost any bunch of people can og out and do a mission as a standard set, but it takes a special someone who can go out and win with a "substandard" build. For this reason i quite enjoy the different sort of build, where it really takes skill to be able to succeed as opposed ot just being lazy and doing the sae old things. (this might be part of my fondness for non-55 farming ^_^)

oljomo

Monks I can understand. For earlier missions, you can get by without them, but they make things a heck of a lot easier. For later missions, yes, you need a monk or two. It's the other requirements that I don't understand. Groups that would rather stand in a town for half an hour to get an MM, instead of choosing someone else from the other twenty players who have asked to join. In that half-hour, they could be well on their way to finishing the mission. In fact, for one mission, there was a group asking for a very specific build. I joined another group, we completed the mission, I mapped back to the starting location for some reason that eludes me now, and the same group was still there! They hadn't even left.

The simple way to get a decent PuG is, of course, to stand out from the crowd. You dont have to be mad, but it helps A few lines of something random is usually enough to pique the interest of anyone like-minded. From there, you can start something in the district you're in, have some fun, do a dance together and just gradually build the group of people who obviously just want to have fun, because those are far and away the best groups one can form in GW

On the subject of cookie cutter builds, it is simply a case of people lacking in imagination. No offense to people who play cookie cutter builds, but it's the truth. I have also been in some strange looking pugs and i play some very different builds, that while, not the most effective, they get the job done and are a lot of fun to play. Felinette, dont let the cookie cutter mentality bother you, as it's an integral part of GW these days. You have the radical, the elite, (eVIL et al,) and the sheep, in as much as the radical are the ones who invent and play builds that are very much off the beaten track, the elite invent the most effective builds they can and then win with them and the sheep emulate the elite, some more effectively than others and some, quite shockingly

By the way, oljomo, I dont like the view that uncommon builds are somehow 'substandard' I know this isnt necessarily your view, but the whole uncommon=substandard mentality is a huge misconception. An example I could give is my Mo/Me Signet Blaster, a pure signet smiter who relies on repeatable smite signet damage by using inspiration mantras to lower cooldown and 'echo' signets. You wont ever find a group asking for that anywhere, but whenever I go down to fissure of woe with my friends, they all insist on me bringing my monk, because it makes the skeletons so easy when you can hit them for over 350 damage after a matter of seconds. Otherwise, it's an average build, but it definitely has it's place in the fissure

"In the fight between you and the world, back the world." --Franz Kafka

Some people want "cookie-cutter" groups because those groups typically have the highest rate of success. Your points about being able to do the mission are valid. There have been plenty of groups I've been in that were unconventional and also successful. However, when you come to these forums and complain about the lack of build variety I can only wonder about your motives. You won't succeed in getting the game changed. You won't succeed in getting people to change their minds. I guess you might get some sympathy, but that doesn't get you through missions.

This game is fairly mature, and most players have been through the content multiple times. They know what works and what doesn't so it's hard to make them try something new. My suggestion is for you to find a good guild that likes to PvE. Then you can do these missions with unconventional groups and "less desirable" builds/class combos. Then you don't need to bother with the narrow minded masses.

Cheers!

Personly I do not want a necro with every blood skill they picked up, or a ranger with barrage, a 6BM pet and domination hexes, or an elementalist with 8 fire spells. These players are using builds for against one enemy and even then its not the most efficient build.

If you convince me that your build works, or even just tell me how you use it thats fine, I dont want a general ranger though

Yep, that mentality bugs me also. That mentality is the sole reason why so many 'outside-the-box'(which really aren't that much 'outside-the-box') builds get rejected in PUGs, such as Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalist builds other than Fire Magic, and so on. So it's up to us as those who prefer not to play the usual boring builds to show those close-minded ones that other builds do work just as nicely, if not better. If that isn't possible, then just play with guildies, friends and henchmen.

Skuld, why the hate towards rangers? And just how does one define a 'general ranger'? Rangers are so versatile that generalizing them is dilficult at best.

Seriously.I had to Hench my way through everything with my Me/N, even had to hench my way from Camp Rankor to Maw the Mountainhearts location.

I cant even understand why some people enjoy playing those builds in the first place.I've played a stance tank before with my warrior, it was quite possibly one of the most boring things I have ever done in GuildWars.

Well the reason these groups are used is the same reason that you follow the assembly instructions for, let's say , a grill. You can put that grill together in a number of ways. You can assemble the parts in a different order than the listed steps but the order they tell you is usually the easiest way. It's not lack of skill, nor is it a lack of creativity, nor is it people not wanting to play the game. All it is is a matter of expediency. I don't see why anyone should go through a mission at a snail's pace for lack of a specific character type nor do I equate length of time playing to the amount of fun. I personally do not want to waste an hour and a half on a mission when I can get it done in a half hour with one of your "cookie cutter" groups. Then it's not fun to me. then it's like work. I don't want to work on my days off.

I honestly think this thread was started less as a legitimate discussion and more as a way for the OP and the others who have posted to say." I am special because I don't use cookie cutter builds or cookie cutter groups." Ok yes. You're special. There you go. We all bow at the feet of your 1337 personages. Just don't go knocking people that don't want to bother with the hassel of an ineffective group. I'm glad that you have gone through with unconventional group builds and been successful but you're the exception not the rule. It's just a lot easier to go with the tried and true methods than to gamble on whether or not some random assemblage of characters and build types will be effective. When you start knocking on people though and insinuating a lack of creativity, or lack of skill, or laziness that just makes you look cheap too. So here have a blue ribbon, feel a little superior because you are so much more creative than the rest of us peons. /sarcasm
Just in the future when you go to ask a question about something or discuss something just ask the question or start the discussion. When you start handing out multiple choice answers like laziness, uncreative, lack of skill it just shows how narrow minded you are. You are no better than you say the people that form these groups are. Basically you are saying, in a backhanded manner admittedly which I also find contemptible, but that's ok, that people should play like you otherwise they are bad. As I said you aren't saying it directly, but it is implied in your posts when you say that they lack creativity, or skill, or are lazy.

You know, I only play non-standadrd builds. I've got a bonder necro, a hex pressure barrager, and a degen prerssure mesmer that carries a fellblade, and does NOT use IW. The first one gets in groups, and then I get asked where my minions are. I raise some. I cast a few spells, and people ask "why aren't you healing?" So I ping my life. At level 9, my health is 410 of 410.

The ranger, fewer places since I refuse to submit and be an R/Mo (I will not make myself less effective for people who can't stay alive) and since of course I'm a ranger. But, any time my guild goes somewhere they ask for me if I'm on. If you know your job, and can do it, no flavor of the month will take you out.

My mesmer is a special creature. At first, even my guildies asked if it was IW. It is not. My specific skill bar is a secret. My weapon mods are a secret. My specific armor mix is a secret (it's the underwear, and that's no joke). And I will ONLY play that character with guildies or people I trust. Anyone else and they refuse me heals. I can out DPS a hammer warrior very easily (I have shown this on request, though it was with guildies) and can solo half the game (the other half relies on me learning more moves and getting good with them) but I do take a bit more damage (I also carry 3 self heals, and do not hurt myself to use them) and I hit things, so people automatically yell "Get back you n00b" and I step back. Then everything stops dying.

I have gotten to the point of if I can't solo it I wait till guild is on. I tire of children.

LOL. I vant to take over the vorld!!! Bwa-ha-ha.

I'm not complaining about the lack of build variety. I'm complaining about how difficult it can be to get into a group and how much gaming time is wasted doing so. It's something that detracts from my enjoyment of the game, therefore I'm bitching about it, and who better to bitch to than other GW players. Frankly, I think it would be of great benefit if Anet implemented some way for group leaders and players to find each other without having to spam chat, but I'm not holding my breath.

No. See above. I don't think cookie-cutter builds or groups are any more or less special than the non-variety. I just don't understand why players hold out so long for a build they think is essential, when they could actually be playing the game. Notice I said cookie-cutter groups, NOT cookie-cutter builds. Even someone with a cookie-cutter build, and I have a few of those, can have a problem getting into a group if their cookie isn't the right flavour.

So chill.

Bragfest!!!!

QFT!

It is a bragfest and nothing more and I love how we are the narrow minded masses when, as I said, they are backhandedly saying that people who play these group builds are somehow lesser players. It is insinuated throughout the majority of posts here when it is not flat out said. Talk about elitist and narrow minded. This is a pointless thread that serves only as a platform for people who can't get into groups to put up their individuality flag and play the misunderstood innovator. Whatever helps them sleep at night it's fine by me I just don't see the need to make a public spectacle of it. Why not just nail yourselves to crosses while you are at it.

Troll Harder please.

I am getting tired of this too, that's why I prefer soloing FoW rather than going with 3 Eles, 3 Monks, 1 Nekro, 1 Librarian. Just 3-4 days ago I tried to convince some jerk that I can interrupt and tank as well, with shock, distraction blow etc, besides that taking a full stance build in Fow is overly retarded anyway. He wouldn't understand or believe a single word I said. Dunno why I've been patiently trying to explain it. "Tank and Interrupts, lol wtf" Yeah right.

Did you notice the arrogance of the pro-cookie cutter farmers in SF when taking someone along who's in there for the first time? From the 10 runs I bothered to join in the last days not a single group was eager to teach the poor tank how to move, position. No, instead they cursed yelled, requested their precious time back (funny coming from farmers) For every "Noob" floating through the server system there should be a permanent Level decrease.

Well, if people have fun playing the same thing over and over again, more power to them. Friendlist for the win.

My PUGs are not "bring your favorite build" but I never force people to use certain well-known builds. Want to play Mesmer in the FoW/UW, Water-Ele, any kind of Ranger. As long as people are not jerks and it benefits the team concept it's totally fine to me.

It's not trolling it's truth and allow me to show you via quotes from the posters here.

My one point was that this is a backhanded way to put down players who choose to play in tried and true group builds. They say it isn't but let me see here.

Ignorant. that's flattering and also not at all a put down is it?

There we have the implication of a lack of skill and the flat out accusation of laziness. That's not trolling or flaming at all though is it?

So that's also a good thing? Just because you put no offense after it does not mean that it mitigates the insult.

But because I do not agree with the majority in this thread I am the troll. GJ! Love that reading comprehension there. Whatever though. I think my point has been made. So once more tried and true build people are narrow minded? Hypocrisy anyone?

The problem in a nutshell is that you are seeking variety in a style of play where variety has no tangible benefits. The opponents you face will have no variety, and neither will their strategies. Why deviate from what's known to work?

As the cliche goes, if you desire variety, you have to PvP.

If that does not suit you, just wait for Factions. It will be a few months (I hope) before the cookies are cut, so you can have some interesting times.

In human physchology many people are reluctant of change, one build stays forever and people don't like to change things that work. Consider IWAY since the addition of a martyr trapper it hasnt changed much, Hells Precipice is the same, commonly you would use a ranger with winter.

Fun. It's a game--why not try new things? Most people aren't on their first character. Why would they want to do the same mission in the exact "same" group they did it in last time?

I do see your point, though. But for me, gaming is about fun. I'd like to finish the mission, but I'd like to have fun doing it, too. And I do like a good challenge.

And I believe that it would be easier to form pick-up groups, regardless of build, if the game had support for doing so beyond chat.

...wow.
Internet. Serious Business.

Cookie-Cutter groups exist. They work, too.
Many want something that works, not something fun; they forget that you can have fun playing a game, not just savoring the victories in it.
-shrug-
Just my take.

I don't get this fun point either? Who says I'm not having fun just because I'm in a proven group build? For me the fun is in finding things. I honestly prefer solo play and as such I have unique solo builds that I do not share because then they would get nerfed all to hell. Still the fact remains that as long as I'm finding things, as long as I'm getting drops and as long as I'm killing things I'm having fun.

On this point I agree with you 100%. The game desperately needs some UI support for LFG and trade uses.

All I can say is, Faction will greatly alleviate this problem (if it is a problem) for a month or so. So there ya go, you can be the one that designs these cookie builds. Problem solved

the "cookie cutter" mentality has roots in two places .... the previously mentioned "tried and true" methods, which of course have some merit... and the "lemming" method for those that simply cant think for themselves

i get sick of them for the basic reasons that some of them are outright untrue or incomplete, and other are far to narrow minded and limit the gameplay

i think the one that kills me the most is the recent "we need 2 monks for everything" mentality. its gotten silly. one good monk can do it if the rest of the team has brain cell 1. 2 is a crutch in most places, and can actually make some things harder as you have less damage dealing

my guild has been very good at testing and trying alot of alternates and have had terrific success across the board

yes, memsers and rangers can be effective in SF

yes, things other than B/P work just fine in ToPK

i think you can figure the rest.

Ah yes good ol' cookie cutter groups. Places like SF where 5man teams w/ SS and MM i'm not gonna deny anything, they are the best tried and tested methods of clearing it if each member knows his role.

Things like your usual very boring '1 Stance Warrior, 1 Bonder, 1 Healer, 1 Prot, 3 Eles, 1 SS for FoW group' just suck though. They work? Yeah right they do, moment your bonder leaves your tank is stuffed. Warrior drops your almost royally buggered. An ele goes you won't notice a sodding thing becuase 1 is enough if they're good enough.
The only thing that bugs me is when you see Blood necros down there, blood is really crap in terms of FoW imo, of course this is probably because both times the morons didn't bring BR, why go blood and not bring that!?

Barrage/pet however, i've tried various methods for it like
6 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 MM (the lack of firepower sucked, specially when people left).
5 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 Order, 1 Stance warrior (i hate this set so much, all the warrior does is die).
5 R/x, 1 Healer, 1 Order, 1 MM (this works, it works well, and it clears FoW, why change anything?)

Course you can always change Healer for Boon prot, the best monk i've seen down there used a mix of heal and prot (guardian mainly i think) and kept even my necro alive.

Ring of Fire is a completely different matter. I see people around Thirsty River searching for SS necros and MMs (as if noobs even know what the 2 are). What the hell for? You don't need specific builds to get through missions at all, i managed it once with 3 Necros (1 at lvl8, other 2 around 15-18), my W/N, Orion and Alesia. Whats more amazing is no-one died and we didn't have an SS, the lvl8 was an MM but it didn't matter much ).

What about those 8-mesmer teams to UW? It may not be quite as fast as some other builds, but i can guarantee it'll be ALOT more amusing. I remember reading a thread somewhere around here that specified not using a 55 monk tank down there. Strange, this worked quite well:
55 monk w/ SB
SS/SV necro
Fire ele w/ Vengeance/Rebirth (mine)
2 Barragers w/ Rebirth (maybe Vengeance, never found out)

1 Ranger had to go at Twin Serpent Mountain, the other stayed back throughout the entire Chaos Planes while the 3 of us cleared it then helped for the Spawning Pools. After that it was a 3man team to clear the Bone Pits. Did every single quest down there except Four Horseman.

The trip went even faster than the 8-man trip a week or 2 earlier where 1 of the monks did jack shit (he was the worst bonder i've ever seen and kept casting SB on the warrior even when he wasn't under attack), another infuser kept randomly infusing the warrior tank when he didn't even need healing. Note it was the monks in this team that were bad, 1 of them was good, the other 2 seemed clueless.

can u beat a mission fairlly easy with a cookie build yes u can, y do ppl do it cause there lazy and fly through the game then bich when they r done and have nothing to do. i went through the game 3 times with 1 char to play different styles lol it s always fun to see if 1 monk can heal 7 ppl lol of course 3 monks can heal a whole party were s the fun in that. and half the times the 3 monks fail anyway s lol. but to get mad or cry cause u can t get into a grp because of this start ur own grp there r always ppl out there who don t care about cookie grps either that can t get into those grps. it is the grps of ppl who can t get into a cookie grp that r the most fun stop cryin over cookies and start making ur own lol.

That's a neat idea. I might try that with one of my characters, though I guess the earlier missions will be super easy at lvl 20.

I've started forming my own groups for missions I'm familiar with, but I don't feel comfortable doing it for missions I'm not that familiar with. Often the group expects the one who formed the group to lead, as in direct where to go and what to do, and for the later missions, I can't do that (yet). And even when I've formed my own group, there will sometimes be someone in the group insisting that we advertise for a certain type of build. I suppose I could kick them...perhaps I will next time.

Would still like a better way to form groups, though.

I believe my call for a full R/N toucher group in THK was a bit overexaggerated (sp? ), but it must be possible!

When did 'cookie-cutter' become a synonym for 'efficient'?

Being 14, I take offence to some of the posts regarding the "children" on the game, but besides that.

I go r/me everywhere too, and nobody will take it. In Tombs (b/p or balanced, doesn't matter) if you aren't a r/mo, nobody wants you because you dont have "zomgleetrebirthnooblololiamtehnoob" rebirth.

People also don't like my mesmer because it's not e-denial. In PVE. WTF?

But the worst thing had to be when my friend and I worked ourselves out a really nice heal/prot build (2 person, one heal, one prot) and we had 3 leavers (in THK, not surprising) in the first 2 minutes because everyone was wondering where my divine boon was.

I can feel the assassin hatred from miles away with the impending Factions, too. I wonder what kind of builds were emerge with the new skills and areas. Hopefully less set-made-kickifyounotleet crap, or I may quit. That's how annoying this game is getting.

I sense a thread closing approaching......

Story along similar lines: My monk (pure healer) was invited into a group at THK. I accepted. Group leader says, "Are you a bonder?" I say, "No." He says, "Great. Change." Then kicks me before I have a chance to say anything. So I thought, whatever, sounded rude, anyway. The guy has the nerve to invite me back five seconds later. I guess the group gave him grief for kicking me after they'd been looking for a monk for god knows how long. I ignored him, went out with another group that didn't have a bonder, finished the mission easily. You don't need a bonder for THK. I've done that mission now with four characters, and there hasn't been a bonder in any of the groups.

Sidra, you're 14, and you're on these forums, therefor, you do not apply as w/mo m3nd1ng kid.


I'm gonna henchie Factions, period.

From someone that does a ton of farming groups in SF or Tombs....

1). The "cookie cutter" builds are there for a reason, much like IWAY. They work, they are efficient, everyone knows their roles, the maps, and how things function as a whole. It's more efficient in a PUG to be part of an established build than to try and explain to seven other people what their roles are and what they need to do every single time - or to have 4 different people ordering everyone how to play the map. Cookie cutter builds just about eliminates the confusion.
2). Farming groups are there to farm - they are not there to listen to people whine about why their water ele can't get into the group.
3) There is NOTHING stopping you from forming your own party. What gives you the right to demand (or even worse, come on a gaming forum and act like a petulant child) entrance into a party?
4) Isn't this like the 4th thread this month about this same subject?
5) That's why ANet invented friends lists and guild chat channels.

Cookie cutter builds have been proven to be more effective at getting the mission done compared to a balanced group in many occasions.

a B/p group can clear tombs twice as fast as a balanced group. On top of that, a B/p has little risk in wiping.

Many people simply don't feel like taking chances or simply spend more time to get the mission done.

And that is acceptable, why spend 2+ hours to clear tombs when you can do it in a little more than 1 hour. Why take your chances with those two warriors would should they die a couple of times will just be a liability to the rest.

No one wants to spend those 2+ hours with a normal group and on top of that risk a party wipe and go back home empty handed. Same mentality goes for the other campaign of mission, the ones which are considered "hard" even though they can be beaten with henchies *cough*THK*cough*.

Actually, I've been in a number of PUGs containing cookie-cutter builds where people don't know the maps or their roles, and where several people are trying to lead. Maybe farming groups are different--I don't farm, so I wouldn't know. I'm was talking about groups for the storyline missions, as my OP indicates.

Well, I stated elsewhere in the thread why starting my own group won't work for all missions. I haven't demanded that I be allowed entry into a group, nor have I acted like a petulant child. I've just said that it can be difficult to get into groups, even if you have a cookie-cutter build, because some players believe there's only one way to quickly and efficiently beat a particular mission.

Presumably, that's the same reason people can't be bothered to spell out entire words or use the shift key.

For the current prophecies world (pre faction skill invasion), the cookie cutter builds are prevalent because they are the most resistant to less then leet players.

If you're running a B/P group in tombs and one or two rangers bring Poison Arrow instead of Barrage... you'll still do alright and the two rangers will learn as they see the differences. Yes there are critical players in most cookie cutter builds - if the MM doesn't have a clue in Tombs, your monk will most likely ragequit.

2 of my 4 chars are cookie cutter capable builds. Why? because sometimes I enjoy being able to get right into a mission or farm run without spending 20+ minutes trying to form up a group. When I take my two non-typical builds into the wide, wide world; I always form my own groups. I know my Me/R char is never going to get an invite - so I spend a bit of time finding the other oddballs and then have a great time getting through the quest or run.

I accept cookie cutters for what they are - a way for "forum based experts" to group up and enjoy the game while leaving a nice sidebar of folks that actually "get" GW and are willing to experiment and learn.