Damage Comparison: Assassin vs. Warrior

LaserLight

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

Okay. First of all, yes, I understand that as a new melee-oriented class, Assassins will, inevitably, be compared to Warriors. And I will concede that Warrior autoattacks are more powerful than the average Assassin's dagger autoattacks, making them more useful outside skill use. But since this has devolved into another 'Wariers r > Asasens, u noobee!!!11!1!Shiftone' thread, let's examine one thing everyone seems to be forgetting in their mad rush to bash the hell out of the Assassin.

Thing everyone picks up on: 100AL > 70 AL. This is true, yes, and makes Warriors better slugfest fighters than Assassins.

Thing everyone fails to pick up on: 25 Energy + 4 pips > 20 Eergy + 2 pips. See, Assassins are combat casters; they rely on Energy, yes, and a good deal of it, but they have that Energy, and despite complaints about flexibility, they have a method of both recharging that Energy and boosting their damage output in the same breath. News Flash: Warriors are also extremely inflexible - it's either an adren axe spike, an adren sword spike, a half-adren hammer spike, or bust. Very, very rarely do people use Warriors for anything but adren spiking, and even then the only other real option is a Pursuit-type "Charge!" build. I've got one Warrior build that serves a different purpose, but that's one build. And guess what? His damaging skills? Enraged Smash adren spike.

Assassins, however, have a caster-class Energy pool. They're only short five initial Energy, and that's no big deal in the long run. To balance the loss of that five Energy, the Assassin has the only completely self-contained, attribute-based Energy recharge in the game - Critical Strikes. Expertise reduces costs, often drastically, but it doesn't recharge your Energy. Energy Storage gives you an Energy ocean instead of an Energy pool, but it doesn't recharge that Energy once you're done burning through it. Soul Reaping does recharge that Energy - as long as things are dying. Strength, Divine Favor, Fast Casting, and Spawning Power all do jack and shite about your Energy - hell, Fast Casting actually hurts it.

But Critical Strikes is a self-contained energy regeneration tool that also boosts your damage output a great deal. On top of a caster-class Energy pool, we have a spell-melee class which makes the Warrior cry himself to sleep at night because he can't do a quarter of what the Assassin can Energy-wise. Especially since that Assassin can go A/W, pick up his own axe or hammer, and adren spike on top of all the lovely Energy. The best Assassin builds aren't trying for straight DPS off their daggers - that's a Warrior's job, and they're welcome to it. The best Assassins are working their own unique talents to the best of their abilities. Assassins like Appointment in Damascus, with more defense-busting power than most entire GvG teams and great burst damage to boot. Builds like Bloody Barrage, attacking entire groups of enemies for high sustainable damage plus wide-area Bleeding. BUilds like the Temple Strikers I've seen around - Death's Charge, Way of the Fox, Jagged, Temple, then either finish the chain or hit Return. Or even /A builds doing much the same thing, taking advantage of the Assassin's teleports and delicious array of debilitating Hexes to cause mayhem. Want a new Cripshot-style build? Check the Me/A spreading around Siphon Speed alongside his already vicious network of debuffs. Only other skill to give you a 40% speed increase over your enemy is Dash. Like shutting down casters, but hate locking your own skills? Shroud of Silence and adren spike away. And no Warrior can catch an Assassin of either primary or secondary persuasion who is properly utilizing Viper's Defense and Dark Escape, nor could any Ranger put it down through the damage reduction.

Look beyond the daggers, people. Assassins are here to stay, no amount of complaining will change that. So instead of complaining, why not learn to embrace the new capabilities the Assassin represents? We have in the Assassin one of the most potentially flexible characters in the game, matched only by the Ranger in terms of sheer multipurpose utility. Warriors are still better overall damage dealers, yes - but that's all they are. And before you tell me that sustained DPS is all that matters, ask yourself: if that were really true, why aren't the best GvG teams nothing but adren-spiking Warriors?

Think on that before we get into any more anal 1v1 DPS discussions, neh?

DieInBasra

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
News Flash: Warriors are also extremely inflexible - it's either an adren axe spike, an adren sword spike, a half-adren hammer spike, or bust.
I'm pretty sure that after a few months with the assassin's people will have weeded out all the shit and we'll be left with 4-5 builds like all other classes.

Quote:
Warriors are still better overall damage dealers, yes - but that's all they are. And before you tell me that sustained DPS is all that matters, ask yourself: if that were really true, why aren't the best GvG teams nothing but adren-spiking Warriors? Because warriors need support. You'll always try to fit as many warriors as you can into a build, because warriors kill people. Mesmers and Rangers, and to a lesser extent ele's help them kill people by adding a bit of disruption, but in the end you're never going to win without 2ish warriors, unless you're spike. Sustained DPS matters, but you need to be able to keep that DPS sustained, which is where snares, interrutpts/edenial on people with warrior hate, and prod powered Draw conditions come in. But this thread isn't about that, it's about damage.

Quote:
Think on that before we get into any more anal 1v1 DPS discussions, neh? Well, considering this thread is about which can do more damage, you'd think that DPS/spike ability would matter. And I'm pretty sure the only one being a dick here is you. There was only one retard shitting on assassin's as a class, thanks.

LaserLight

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

Heh...actually, it was more like people paying lip service to "there will be a spot for them...somewhere...I think" while all the while espousing Warriors and trying to convince people that Assassins may as well not have weapons for all the damage they do.

And as far as damage goes, let me ask this. A Warrior has higher base DPS due to Strength and a generall heavier-hitting weapon...right? Maybe, maybe not. Let's examine.

First of all, Double Strike. Double Strike offers a higher attack rate than any other weapon class, partially eliminating the need for Frenzy. Which, since we're comparting base DPS without skills right now, is out anyways. Now, let's look at Strength and Critical Strikes. Strength's focus is on armor penetration, while Critical Strikes induces a much higher critical rate. Strength works on every blow, while CS works only on criticals. Seems an easy choice, right? I don't quite think so, Energy aside. Armor penetration works great for chopping of some of a Warrior's higher base AL, but as base AL gets lower, so do the returns on armor penetration, if I remember my AP numbers right. If not, ah well. Critical Strikes, on the other hand, increases the damage dealt by an attack by increasing the damage dealt by an attack, not by sheering off enemy armor. Thus, CS's damage boosting, while intermittent, is less variable than Strength and better suited to taking down casters and other soft targets, which is supposedly what we're after. And let's face it - whether it's a Warrior or a Assassin, either class is going to pound the stuffing out of softies, unless the softy is carrying melee hate. In which case the Warrior is just as boned as the Assassin is. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that the damage bonuses from Strength and Critical Strikes largely cancel out in the end.

Now, let's try an experiment and toss some skills back into the mix. Warriors get back their Evis/Exe spike and Frenzy, which is, I believe, considered the core of Warrior DPS. On the Assassins, let's assume a basic Leaping Mantis->Fox Fangs->Twisting Fangs stream and...oh, since we're shooting for DPS, Locust's Fury. Looking at the two, we see a startling amount of equality in damage. Yeah, one needs four slots while the other needs three, but being realistic, no Warrior worth his salt is going without a stance cancel for Frenzy, so skill slot investment is equal.

With Evis/Exe, Frenzy, Frenzy Cancel, we get a nasty adrenal spike which charges while the Warrior is beating on things and a massive DPS boost through the fast attack rate. Not bad, considering the Warrior's already nasty base damage. At the same time, however, that Warrior will be getting rid of Frenzy the moment someone starts abusing him, which robs him of the extended DPS and brings it back to base levels plus Evis/Exe spike. Giving the Warriors their due, this is quite often enough to get the job done, but Warriors who don't cancel out of Frenzy are dead Warriors.

Assassins using a standard three-hit skill stream and Locust's Fury to boost Double Strike percentage suffer from similar problems. Most would say that having to use Energy instead of Adrenaline for their attacks is stupid. I disagree - the frontloading damage allows an Assassin to begin his beatdown the moment he hits the battle-line, whereas even a "For Great Justice!" and Frenzy-ing Warrior will need to wait for at least a short time before getting to the meat of his skillbar. That Assassin also has more Conditions at his disposal than the Warrior, and while Conditions are seen by many as useless, it is still my belief that forcing an enemy to expend resources getting rid of them makes them worth carrying. At the same time, the Assassin's autoattacks are carrying close to fifty percent rates for both critical hits and double strikes, which carries a twenty-five percent chance for a critical double strike, which is a brutal thing. While both percentages means autoattacking and sitting on a target with the Assassin, make no mistake - an Assassin against a squishy and the Assassin's armor and huge damage bonus make it nearly invincible. Now, in fairness, the Locust's Fury will likely be stripped early on, robbing the Assassin of much of its Double Strike percentage. But here's the kicker - the rest of that percentage is innate. Assassins using Daggers, which are the focus of the debate here, not only get a primary-attribute DPS booster in the form of Critical Strikes, they get a weapon-specific DPS booster in the form of Double Strike, which cannot be stripped away. The increased hit ratio of a Double Striking Assassin also triggers the infamous Vampiric mod more often, adding that extra damage to the Assassin's DPS. And while most people dislike the random nature of both Critical Strikes and Double Strikes, I find that this chaotic damage pattern makes things interesting. While I don't see the situation arising often, I could see a Monk, watching his teammate's health going down in the usual, predictable, Warrior-like pattern, suddenly twitch in shock as a double critical strike deals well over twice the damage the Assassin had been doing and drops the man just before the healing hits. Not often, and not often enough to rely on - but virtually impossible with Warriors.

And let's not forget the Assassin's increased mobility. Teleports make kiting a tricky business. Players used to dealing with Sprinting Warriors will have no way of dealing with teleports, nor will they have skillbar room to do so because they must keep dealing with those Sprinting Warriors. An Assassin materializing from thin air next to someone and catching them with a crippling Leaping Mantis Sting almost before they know what's going on before unloading a Jungle Strike and Twisting Fangs, or something similar, is doing something a Warrior can't completely mimic. Oh, a W/A can certainly take teleports along, but then they're giving up their Shocks and Gales and other Elementalist knockdown attacks, requiring either a standoff Necromancer casting Weaken Knees, use of the otherwise fairly crappy Bull's Strike, or the use of an Elite other than Eviscerate. Not to mention maintaining a heavy teleport battery (Death's Charge/Return/Viper's Defense) on a Warrior's almost nonexistant Energy pool would be difficult unless the Warrior were foregoing some of its standby Energy skills.

So. Let's consider all of this now, please Warrior players? Alongside what I'd stated in my earlier post, I would hope I've covered the Assassin's right to exist.

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

I am not a warrior player, in fact I am playing assassin through campaign right now. And all I can say is they are Glass Cannons minus the cannon part.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
First of all, Double Strike. Double Strike offers a higher attack rate than any other weapon class, partially eliminating the need for Frenzy. Which, since we're comparting base DPS without skills right now, is out anyways. Now, let's look at Strength and Critical Strikes. Strength's focus is on armor penetration, while Critical Strikes induces a much higher critical rate. Strength works on every blow, while CS works only on criticals. Seems an easy choice, right? My last impression was that strength was only applied when using attack skills. So a warrior waiting on a recharge would not get strength applied... the critical chance may be applied to all blows or just attack skills... not sure.

Katari

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

Warriors:
-Realtivily independent of their primary atribute. Warriors do not kill stuff because they pump strength as you seem to imply.
-Flexable attack chains. if Evicerate is blocked, you're not nearly as likely to kill the target, but your next attacks won't be useless.
-Higher armor lets them over-extend more safely.
-Low priority target because of their armor, shield, and absorbsion.
-Can use Frenzy rather safely in PvP.

Sins:
-Higher mobility. Sure, you can tele, but then what? They can still keep kitting, it's not like you have a spamable tele skill.
-Higher energy, and higher energy attack skills. No huge advantage here.
-So people say it isn't a sins job to sit there and auto-attack. If they're not susposed to auto-attack, then just what good is critical strikes?
-Missing your lrad attack will force you to wait for its recharge. Missing an offhand makes you wait for both to recharge.
-Soft target, it wouldn't take much more to spike an assasin than it would to spike another caster, or in many cases, a ranger. Except sins have no whirling defense, or distortion equivlent (Unless they use secondary profession skills).
-Can't use frenzy as safely as a warrior. Squishy target+frenzy is a bad idea. Without fenzy, the only other IAS option looks to be Tiger's Furry. IAS is no less important for an assasin than it is for a warrior.
-Critical Strikes might actually add a good deal of DPS, while Strength does not. But again, people like to say that DPS isn't what sins care about, and they shouldn't be auto-attacking people as much as warriors.

Sins look worthwhile if the player can find a way to make them more durable, and/or if an assasin attack chain is more dangerous than a warrior attack chain.

Leaping Mantis->Fox Fangs->Twisting Fangs Is that more damaging than Evicerate->Exe Strike->Penatrating Blow? Is it signifigantly more damaging? How about Sever->Gash->Final Thrust. Sure, the sword attack chain is less dependable, and it also dosn't require an elite. If Sever misses your attack combo dies, but you can still hit Final Thrust if you wish.

Another question is, lets say You attack, then a double strike is triggered, is that extra hit calculated as damage thrown in, or can that extra hit due to double striking be an attack skill?

Could you take:
Regular hit
Regular hit
Bonus hit
Regular hit

and get

Mantis
Fox
Twisting
Regular

In the same time period? In a shorter time period if you get lucky?

houndofhell93

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

any where i think of

i will tell u if i think it wise

R/

with all the shadow steps and recall and more dmg in short burst i find it fun and nice to run in hit or kill and retreat it works well in big groups where u need to kill one boss or creatchure before the rest. even if the gropup is agro happy

i think they are more on = playing ground with rangers.

sh4ft3d

sh4ft3d

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...

Frank Ought To Monk [FotM]

W/

The biggest difference between these classes is the way they are played. I'm sure somone will figure out a strong dps assassin (not that it would be of much use), and I'm sure someone will figure out an even better way to make wars die. The thig is, it all depends on what kind of build you're running and how effectively each class can execute it. An assassin has the advantage of enchants like Aura of Displacement etc that make it an amazing class for leaping in and out of combat, disrupting and pressuring enemy monks. Assassins will, in my opinion, have a much greater use for the trapper style of combat in GvG. Their job is to disrupt, freak people out, make key decisions in where and when they should use their skills. It requires a level of awareness that not many players are used to yet.

Kurow

Kurow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

Faces of Death [Tye]

R/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by suiraCLAW
I'll try to calculate everything

for the builds I used:
http://gwshack.us/83e5b

base dmg I used
Sword: 34.12 damage per hit
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit

dunno the exact daggers, but I'll take 20 for base dmg

the dmg
assasin:
first attack (unsupecting strike): 20 + 27 + 36 = 83
second attack (fox fangs) : 20+21 = 42
third attack (twisting fangs) : (20+11)+(20+11)+DW = 172
total: 83+42+172=297

axe warrior:
first attack (eviscerate): 35+42+DW = 177 (5 more then twisting fangs btw)
second attack (executioner's): 35+42 = 77
third attack (axe rake): 35+11 = 46
total: 177+77+46=300

sword warrior:
first attack (galrath): 35+43=78
second attack (final thrust): 35+43+43=121
third attack: (gash): 35+21+DW =156
total: 78+121+156=355

thumper:
first attack (hammer bash): 50
second attack (crushing blow) : 50+16+DW=166
third attack: (irresistible): 50+24=74
total: 50 + 166 + 74 = 290

thumper's pet: (pet's have base dmg of a hammer)
first attack (ferocious): 50+28 = 78
second attack (brutal strike): 50 + 35 + 35 = 120
total: 78+120= 198

total of thumper + pet = 290+189=479

BTW: I took 100 dmg for a DW, I don't care if this is incorrect because everyone uses it. I dont know about you, but my thumper definately does not do that much damage. Even then, you list DW like it can be stacked, which it cant, and other attacks like brutal strike like they are always below 50%, which they arent. Try again though.

LaserLight

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

I'm not arguing that Assassins will replace Warriors as primary killers. What I'm trying to get across is that Assassins are not meant to be primary killers. Like Shafted said, and as many others have either directly stated or indirectly intimated, Assassins are a highly disruptive, chaos-inducing class excellently suited to keeping enemies off-balance. Mesmers do this already, but while Mesmers work with denial and subjugation of the enemy's battle potential, Assassins do it through almost terroristic tactics. Both classes have the same general goal, and both require exceptional battelfield awareness, but a properly speced and played Assassin is a totally different beast than a Mesmer. Mesmers toss around disruption and spelljamming like mad things and are one of the most powerful classes on the battlefield, but a Mesmer does not (typically) actively kill things. Not only that, but a Mesmer is just as susceptible to anti-caster tactics as are Monks and Necromancers, and will go squish just as easily when caught by a Warrior.

Assassins, however, cause chaos and disruption through mass Condition stacking and through chaotic, unpredictable, unstoppable movement. Though I very much sincerely doubt we have them yet, I fully expect to see master Assassin players in the future who can put an entire eight-man team on edge, watching their backs, waiting for the next teleport, the next assassination. Let's get one thing straight right now: you can't stop teleportation. Even knockdowns - even the infamous Backbreaker - aren't a guarantee of the Assassin staying put. An Assassin on his butt can still activate Viper's Defense and flash away from a spike, Poisoning his opponent and buying a precious second or two. An Assassin can activate Viper's Defense mid-cast, get struck, Poison and flash away and still finish his spell. I know, I've done it.

Proper utilization of teleportation, and proper integration of teleportation into team tactics, are both well into the future. But they'll get here, and then people won't want to play GvG without an Assassin. Because a character with that level of positional control and the undeniable ability to drop squishes as readily as any Warrior is a frightening thing.

DieInBasra

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
. At the same time, however, that Warrior will be getting rid of Frenzy the moment someone starts abusing him, which robs him of the extended DPS and brings it back to base levels plus Evis/Exe spike. Giving the Warriors their due, this is quite often enough to get the job done, but Warriors who don't cancel out of Frenzy are dead Warriors.
See, the thing is most other teams have two warriors as well, so the only real damage threat is in your backline, so you can use frenzy pretty freely as long as rush/sprint is there for you. Most warriors turn frenzy on very often unless vs spike teams.

Quote:
Yeah, one needs four slots while the other needs three, but being realistic, no Warrior worth his salt is going without a stance cancel for Frenzy, so skill slot investment is equal.
Well, it's 2 damage slots, one IAS(helpful in spikes and DPS) and then a speed buff vs 3 damage slots, one 30 second recharge enchantment(weak example, btw, even if you did admit it. Assassin's need an IAS of sorts as well.) used to increase dps, and one speed buff. Don't pretend like assassin's don't need them.

Quote: That Assassin also has more Conditions at his disposal than the Warrior, and while Conditions are seen by many as useless, it is still my belief that forcing an enemy to expend resources getting rid of them makes them worth carrying. What conditions kill? Two, deepwound and dazed. How much energy to get rid of them? 5, draw conditions. Burying conditions is useless, you're just feeding MendA, or it's getting bypasses by Draw. The only other way conditions kill is if you spread them party-wide, something the assassin cannot do.

Quote: an Assassin against a squishy and the Assassin's armor and huge damage bonus make it nearly invincible. Because huge damage bonus's make you harder to kill, of course.

Quote: An Assassin materializing from thin air next to someone and catching them with a crippling Leaping Mantis Sting almost before they know what's going on before unloading a Jungle Strike and Twisting Fangs, or something similar, is doing something a Warrior can't completely mimic. Aftercast still happens, so they do have a second to get out of your range. I've seen it with WM's AuraOfDis. blackout mesmers, the monk still kited the blackout well. But there's only one option if you want to teleport often, AoD, and that's Elite. Besides all that, your axe warrior spikes in two second, with the brunt of the damage in the begining, your Locut Fury assassin spikes in 4 seconds, with the brunt of the damage at the end. See the differance?

But I think I'd like to see someone do an analasis of Daggers an Crit/dual strikes, because I have to say, you're good at spin. I'm starting to believe sin's damage might not be soo bad in the right circumstance.

Quote: So, uh, warrior's have to act alone? Two warriors always combined they aren. spikes and shocks to kill a target.

Quote:
Assassins, however, cause chaos and disruption through mass Condition stacking and through chaotic, unpredictable, unstoppable movement. Please change your veiws of condition stacking one target, it really isn't a terrific stratagy.

Quote:
Not only that, but a Mesmer is just as susceptible to anti-caster tactics as are Monks and Necromancers, and will go squish just as easily when caught by a Warrior. But a mesmer can stay in the midlines and be effective, an assassin needs to be in the enemy's backlines.

Quote:
I fully expect to see master Assassin players in the future who can put an entire eight-man team on edge, watching their backs, waiting for the next teleport, the next assassination Well, considering there is only one reliable teleportation skill, and that's elite, it's not as big of a deal as you'd thing. And I'd like to restat e that assassin damage comes at the end of a chain, and that the chain is 3.99 seconds long.

krytas

krytas

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mississagua, Ontario, Canada

Well after many debates over this, i think laserlight finally nailed when he said Assassins aren't meant to be primary killers. Now lets take a warrior, in..hmm..put it in 12v12. While he's at the ressurect shrine, pounding on opponents with a simple cycle of attacking, while being showered on by attacks and getting heals and using the odd healing signet. The assassins job is to go right up to that pesky memser and unleash one or two combos of his attacks, in less than 10 seconds. This often leads to the mesmers death, as the mesmers teammates catch this and head over to kill the assassin, the assassin quickly shadow steps outta there to safety. This is the assassins job, to be the behind-the-scenes killer.

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

It will be quite difficult to state what class does more damage. For the warrior, it was simple. As Strenght don't apply on auto attacks, calculating damage was rather simple with only weapon mastery as a variable.
But for the assassin, critical rates are modded by critical strikes. Double attack raise the average DPS as well. I didn't verify clearly if Double attacks were taking more time than a single attack, but that's not my feeling so far (have to make a series of tests in Balthazar's Temple).
I must say I fear assassins can be better or about the same DPS than warriors just by auto attacks -provided they have the right build. 16 Dagger mastery and 13 Critical strikes are deadly. Especially against kiting opponents who present their back to your blade, thus increasing again critical rate.
I used in RA such a build with Critical eye and Zealous daggers, I must say 60% of my attacks were critical, and my E-management was even "too much". Add to that some double attacks (criticals also), and the DPS was quite impressive (without any use of the attack combo). Without Critical eye the critical rate was still really impressive (more than 40% against kiting opponents).
I think the DPS comparison between Wars and Sins can't be based only on Weapon mastery (Wars win on this basis for sure), but must also consider Critical strikes. Calculating the numbers will take time. It's better to play and discuss on this after some weeks of testings.

Reikai

Reikai

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by krytas
Well after many debates over this, i think laserlight finally nailed when he said Assassins aren't meant to be primary killers. Now lets take a warrior, in..hmm..put it in 12v12. While he's at the ressurect shrine, pounding on opponents with a simple cycle of attacking, while being showered on by attacks and getting heals and using the odd healing signet. The assassins job is to go right up to that pesky memser and unleash one or two combos of his attacks, in less than 10 seconds. This often leads to the mesmers death, as the mesmers teammates catch this and head over to kill the assassin, the assassin quickly shadow steps outta there to safety. This is the assassins job, to be the behind-the-scenes killer. or you could use a ranger and do it in 8.

MysticPain

MysticPain

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

I think one thing that isn't taken into effect is that two warriors is two warriors. They pretty much act on their own, while targetting the same target. Assassins have an ability, when tagteamed, to be an amazing force to be reckoned with.

Take this, for instance.

First assassin uses Scorpion Wire on a target and moves away to purposefully drop him. As soon as he's far enough away that the scorp teles him, he immediately unloads with a damage based combo.

As soon as scorp wire kicks in, the assassin's tag team partner does Death's Charge (return to the teamie is an option too, but I like to keep my Return free). The target should be on his toosh at this point. The tag now unloads a combo starting with Falling Spider, followed up possibly by Death Blossom, and a decent damage combo.

An interresting mod of this is to have both pack falling spider, and fight that way, but I'm really not all that interrested in that setup.

The point I'm making here is this is PvP, and PvP in guild wars consists of expert teamwork. Warriors are, in essence, a distraction and basic damage dealing over time until their spike. Assassins have no need to wait for that power up, and their tagteam aspect is, I'm sorry, much much stronger.

You guys can argue from here until christmas about which is better at dealing damage, which I suppose is what this thread is. But I hope my example has helped make it clear that you can kill an enemy much more effectively without having the higher damage, per say.

Bring on the flames, and full dissection of my post with each paragraph in [quote]. GOGOGO!

dawnrain

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
I think the DPS comparison between Wars and Sins can't be based only on Weapon mastery (Wars win on this basis for sure), but must also consider Critical strikes. Calculating the numbers will take time. It's better to play and discuss on this after some weeks of testings. The gwonline.net assasin forum has a sticky thread with the above analysis. It looks reasonable and the conclusions may surprise some of the readers here.

Snowman

Snowman

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wales, UK

Devils Scorpions

W/E

Warriors suffer from their target kiting, which means its a helluva job to actually reach the target.

Weras Assasins cans teleport, so i guess you need to take onto consideration the assasins superior manouverability.

hmmm, Im thinking of testing a Warrior assasin now

Miakoda

Miakoda

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Me/

"The gwonline.net assasin forum has a sticky thread with the above analysis. It looks reasonable and the conclusions may surprise some of the readers here."


Shame you have to register to even VIEW the thread.

[copy+paste pls]

LaserLight

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

Strength doesn't apply on autoattacks? Oh, how delicious.

Hm hm...how delicious indeed. You're saying that the only reason a Warrior is better than an Assassin with that axe is because the Warrior can get the four extra mastery? Not saying Assassins should pick up axes, but whee...is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now? Especially given some of the capabilities Assassins have - in PvE, at least, I've done fine with sticking it out with a target when necessary by spamming hell out of "Watch Yourself!" 90AL for me since I use condition-reduction armor instead of +15AL while attacking, but with that +15AL armor and "Watch Yourself!", you can easily match a Warrior's basic AL while swinging. 105AL while autoattacking. Even Sentinel's armor doesn't beat that, and apparently there is no reason at all to get to the required 13 Strength aside from using Sentinel's armor.

Oh how delicious, how delicious...I may have to switch armor now. Or at least do so when it's cheaper. 105 attacking AL, that's more than enough to stick to a target and finish what little your skill stream leaves. And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater.

DieInBasra

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Weras Assasins cans teleport, so i guess you need to take onto consideration the assasins superior manouverability.
There are only Three teleport to target assassin skills, two of them with over 45 second rechage, the Third is Elite. As well, don't think you can take a tele instead of a speed buff. I've been teleported and hit with the lead attack many times and still kited away, sometimes they didn't even get the lead attack in if I was already moving. You need to be able to catch someone to deal DPS.

Quote:
is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now?
You must have been hanging around a very differant crowd if you ever thought Strenth was a good attribute to bump up >_>. The reason people play warrior primary is to safetly use frenzy and get into the enemys backlines, for the longer sprint/rush, and yeah, for 16 weapon, which increases %damage and %crits.

Quote:
They pretty much act on their own, while targetting the same target.
Warriors are, in essence, a distraction and basic damage dealing over time until their spike. Assassins have no need to wait for that power up, and their tagteam aspect is, I'm sorry, much much stronger. Ok, you get a combo in first, but after that the warrior will be dealing his spikes more often then you. And that "basic damage dealing" is more damage then can be put out by any other class. But seriously, what's so great about a knockdown with a 30second recharge and a ton of conditions and an attack the causes poison?

Quote:
And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater. I really doubt that, but even if it does, their potential might be bigger but in practise they won't be as reliable.

Katari

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
Strength doesn't apply on autoattacks? Oh, how delicious.

Hm hm...how delicious indeed. You're saying that the only reason a Warrior is better than an Assassin with that axe is because the Warrior can get the four extra mastery? Not saying Assassins should pick up axes, but whee...is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now? Especially given some of the capabilities Assassins have - in PvE, at least, I've done fine with sticking it out with a target when necessary by spamming hell out of "Watch Yourself!" 90AL for me since I use condition-reduction armor instead of +15AL while attacking, but with that +15AL armor and "Watch Yourself!", you can easily match a Warrior's basic AL while swinging. 105AL while autoattacking. Even Sentinel's armor doesn't beat that, and apparently there is no reason at all to get to the required 13 Strength aside from using Sentinel's armor.

Oh how delicious, how delicious...I may have to switch armor now. Or at least do so when it's cheaper. 105 attacking AL, that's more than enough to stick to a target and finish what little your skill stream leaves. And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater. Warrior armor: 80 +20vs phys +shield +absorbsion runes +damage reduction, before defensive skills.
Assasin armor: 70 +15 while attacking
The problem with saying "See look! I can use WY! and have lots of armor! is that you're using a warrior skill just to match what a warrior alredy has. Many many PvE warriors use WY! on top of what they have, and it doesn't seem like strong play to put WY! on the skillbar of a PvP sin.

My assumption reguarding warriors dealing more DPS is as follows.With each at 16, it should look something like Hammer>Axe>Sword>Dagger (and that's assuming reasonable crit mastery) in terms of auto-attack DPS. People keep saying that sins don't tank in PvE, but that's what you'd have to do to take advantage of melee DPS.

A_Muppet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Um... at risk of sounding rude, that's kinda bollocks to an extent.

I find Assassins are good at picking off the lightly armoured things-the spellcasters, the rangers. Against warriors they leave much to be desired, but that's expected. If assassins could tank as well as a, er, tank then why bother playing warrior at all?

Yukito Kunisaki

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

LaserLight definitely has the upperhand in this evolution of a thread...

Sorry DieInBasra, but you're assumptions are more and more working against you...

Ok, so you say condition stacking is bad because the enemy will bring counters for it right?

In that case, let's bring your entire team in to do damage but not involve any conditions...

Now you may seem to have the advantage since you don't deal any conditions and the enemy team has brought some useless skill [anti-condition] to deal with your almighty team that uses nothing but raw damage.

What's this? They're using conditions and hexes on you while also doing damage...

If you weigh a realistic situation, YOU MUST HAVE CONDITIONS if your team is going to do anything.

The more problems the enemy team has to deal with, the better your chances of winning.

Conditions cause problems.

If you bring a team designed only with killing and damage in mind, then uh, you'll be easy to stop. A few prot skills and you're done in terms of massive damage...

Now if you use a combination of disruption through conditions, hexes, effects, anti-defense, etc. To me, that's an obvious win right there. The enemy can't do anything and you're killing them easily...

If you think only Dazed and Deep Wound kill, show me how you survive if your monks are stuffed, and you've got a VERY long lasting poison/bleeding duration on your hp bar... [and you've been fighting for a while already...]

These "that trick doesn't work" argument is getting redundant and I like Assassins. I like my warrior better but there's no reason to slam an assassin just cause they do damage differently.

DPS? Why would a sin want to do dps? lol... Sins just need to land a gigantic spike and thanks to double striking, why would they need an IAS? If you boost their Double Strikes by 50% or so [totally feasible with skill/elites], that means you're doing a 2x strike every other swing... Can Frenzy Match that? Hell no. At least while doing your 2x strikes, you're not eating double damage...

Both classes have their strength and weaknesses but some of us here have forgotten the basics...

DPS isn't an issue if it's only 3 seconds... That's a spike. Real dps should be taken over a much longer period of time... 26 dps in 3s. is pathetic. 290 dps in 1 second? Hey, that's sexy damage buddy...

You can go ahead and say hexes / conditions are 'useless' since they will be countered. You fight my team using only raw damage and I'll fight yours using a strong blend of every disruption possibility in the book. This headbutt a wall with damage theory makes one sound dumber and dumber by the second... You fight without hexes/conditions, that's fine by me...

The Chimpster

The Chimpster

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

England

X-Universe [XU]

Mo/Me

My argument:

Assassins are more fun to play :P

Thank you goodnight.

Yukito Kunisaki

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chimpster
My argument:

Assassins are more fun to play :P

Thank you goodnight. Best Argument evar!

Sometimes I wonder why people just don't accept this...

I like this class, I know how to play this class, is that enough?

I also wonder if people try to use these mechanics to prove a point and expend much time and energy on it. I have other things in life to worry about more important than number crunching a vid game mechanic so I leave it to the gamer gurus to do that for me.

Can't we just have fun with our respective class? yeesh...

twicky_kid

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite Vulgar [FUN]

Warriors are a better choice even when it comes to dmg. A warrior can pound on you and charge the adrenaline. You don't really know when he is going to spike you. Because he can tank the dmg it makes his spikes more consistant. If 1 attack fails to land it doesn't really affect a warrior. He can use his follow up skills and keep on pounding with normal dmg.

An assassin has to rush in spike then get out. Any disruption and the chain will not land. He cannot stand and tank the dmg so you know when a spike is coming. Imagine a warrior overextended while using healing sig the entire battle. Zins are going to be dead in a flash with no way to help them or heal.

When a Zin is not spiking what else can he do? Just stand there for another 15 seconds waiting on his skills to recharge? A warrior can still be dealing dmg while the adrenaline is building keeping up the pressure.

Warrior FTW.

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Guys, please.
Don't want to begin a flame war, but when Laserlight started to say that sins could match wars armor, he made a fool of himself. Wars beat Sins AL every day with just EQUIPMENT.
Saying that conditions stacking is a good thing shows also your ignorance of the metagame. It simply doesn't work in serious PvP.
As for "gigantic spike". Errh.... I find them quite unimpressive, to say the least, compared to warriors ones. Most warrs spikes deals +42 damage at 16 weapon mastery. It is also the case of some Sins' skills.
But for tremendous energy cost/recharge time. And dagger's damage is ridiculous compared to sword or axe, so finally, a spike with an axe is better than with daggers, simply because of the base damage.
Sins have already horrible weaknesses, they are easily shutdown, easily killed, their daggers deals ridicoulous base damage for a "two handed" weapon. I didn't find warrs spikes less powerful than Sins ones. It seems that maxed critical strikes could outdamage warrs DPS, but it has yet to be tested. It would terribly disappoint me if it was not the case.
As for double attacks. They are rare, and taking the elite just to increase them is IMO a waste of a skill slot.
Even if sins outdamaged warriors with maxed critical strike, it would force you to play a particular build just to do your job.

Yet, we have to wait the numbers before we can discuss of this.

jpsantos20

jpsantos20

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Hell

The Untold Heroes

W/Mo

Assassins have a better dmg output than a warrior has IMO. Tho they attack for less dmg, they attack faster and with Dagger Mastery they have a chance to hit for double strike and when u they hit their combo perfectly they can have more dmg than a warrior can ever have. Yes i do agree that Assasins have a lower AL than the Warriors do, way low. But assassins are not made to be tanked with or go head on with a warrior, thats just dumb or retarded. There are skills that can make assassins better, I am now trying to find a Skill set to fight a warrior on 1 v 1 and it wont involve me staying in 1 area and sti there and go toe to toe with a warrior. It will take some time but i honestly think it can be done.

twicky_kid

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite Vulgar [FUN]

All I have to say is 2 words and I'm done with this arguement.

Evisc + Executioner's

Until a Zin can match that duo right there they will be useless in serious PvP. Until a zin can do 300+ dmg with 2 skills don't even try to compare a war to a zine for dmg. There is no comparesion.

Zins do not attack faster than a sword or axe. It is the same speed with the chance to do a double strike.

Xellos

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

No Idea

According to Guild Wiki, 16 dagger mastery gives 1.00 attack speed. 16 dagger mastery is obviously a key requirement.

Sins are definately spikers, but in serious pvp, more-so for their npc killing abilities. Unlike a warrior, you generally can't get in and out of a enemy's base just to kill an archer or two.

The sin isn't revolutionary to the game, but the teleporting capabilities it carried over are. Everyone offensively is using them now, and I suspect if given the right build, even defensively they will be used. Teleportation is the new way to play the game, and until people can react to 3 melee classes just blinking in and popping your teamate, it's going to stay that way.

Dawn Godtreader

Dawn Godtreader

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Animas Dreams (SYN)

W/Mo

First of all, and i haven't read the whole thread, i would like to see the attack speed of a sin and the attack speed of a war.

Wars have the higher damage, and probably more dps. But wars cant spike pressure like a sin can.

With my build Golden phoenix strike, horns of the ox, falling spider, twisting fangs. I do +132 on my normal attacks with 15 dagger mastery not to mention deep wound poison bleeding and a kd, -7 degen not to mention they now have low life. Critical hits effect all attacks so theres a chance that any of my attaks will crit hit doing even more damage.

Some of you say that it will get healed by mend condition..so what in the meantime someone else is taking damage while that monk is healing and getting rdy to strike again, maybe same target maybe not. a monk cant be everywhere at once while a assassin is doing major quick damage somewhere the rest of the team is attacking this guy over here.

Dps on a war might be more damage but whoever sits there and lets my assassin beat on them is stupid cuz even if i dont do as much dps, the dps i do do is considerable, pressuring with the higher critical hit rate and higher double hit which may result in a crit hit also not to mention faster attack speed, when im not comboing.

damage output ill give to wars they can attack constantly and keep on attacking and hurting. but even a eviserate/exe spike doesnt do the damage i do with my combo to anything.

all in all
dps wars win
combos sins win

but either way to underestimate the sin in anything is a deathwish, and may i be the one with my dagger in your back.

Timing is everything sins aren't gonna be attacking whoever has the defense they are gonna be assassinating the enemies the monk cant get to in time.

Energywise i never had a energy problem on my sin ever.

Btw i'll challenge any war to a 1v1. We'll see who wins then ^^

Dawn Godtreader

Dawn Godtreader

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Animas Dreams (SYN)

W/Mo

Ok attack speed of a sin is 1.00 the chance for a double strike at 16 dagger mastery is 32% if you add locusts fury thats 52%.

I hope ensign has done this math alrdy my head hurts owie

what is the crit hit rate with max daggers and ohh lets say 10 crit hits?

Put it all together and your dps goes way up.

with a 50% chance of double strike and 1.00 attack speed your alrdy 3 attacks every 2 hits basically and i think the crit hit rate would be a third so atleast one of those hits would be a crit hit..

I dunno what the attack speed of a frenzy war is but i doubt that there could be much difference between the wars 2 hits and the sins 3 hits.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
According to Guild Wiki, 16 dagger mastery gives 1.00 attack speed. 16 dagger mastery is obviously a key requirement.
16 dagger mastery effectively gives 1.00 attack speed when you are not using any attack skills (since you cant double strike on them). Without an IAS stance, the Assassins combos are too slow, and the longer ones become useless. So its not a spike class, its not a damage class, what is it ?

IMO the teleports should have been linked to the Assassin primary attribute to give this primary a little more worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Goodreader
Ok attack speed of a sin is 1.00 Its 1.33 per second base, just like swords and axes.

Dawn Godtreader

Dawn Godtreader

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Animas Dreams (SYN)

W/Mo

I was talking about with 16 dagger mastery its 1.00. And it seems that no good attack based assassin should have any less then 16. Assassin combos aren't to slow for the damage they deal and the conditions they drop it would at the same time is faster than any other class can do this.

Slower or not it kills fast and sins dont have to attack the target. You would have to be a good monk to keep up with a target almost dieing and another target being attacked constantly and not mess up.

I've faced many teams with 2 monks and even they where hard pressed to keep up with the random targets i was attacking and the other targets my teams where attacking.

I can do my combo every 8 seconds im gonna go add up the damage i do with that and see if any war can match that.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Godtreader
I was talking about with 16 dagger mastery its 1.00.
Yes, but then you said that the chance for double strikes was 32%, which implied that this %age was in addition to the 1.00 attacks/sec. The double strikes are what makes this 1.00 (is that even correct ? I didnt calculate) attack per second over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Goodtreader
I've faced many teams with 2 monks and even they where hard pressed to keep up with the random targets i was attacking and the other targets my teams where attacking. What kind of team would run with less than 2 monks ?

Kurow

Kurow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

Faces of Death [Tye]

R/W

I would like to suggest that assassins are for fast spiking, in that they can execute their combos at any time, as early as they want. They are supposed to get in, get off their combo, and get out. They do this quite well, and an one assassin can easily take a caster down to less than half health with just one combo.

Dawn Godtreader

Dawn Godtreader

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Animas Dreams (SYN)

W/Mo

That i dont know, it may be or it may be that double strike is ADDED to that

do we have any official input here i would really like to get this figured out.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Goodtreader
That i dont know, it may be or it may be that double strike is ADDED to that

do we have any official input here i would really like to get this figured out. Its perfectly obvious, at 16 dagger mastery, you do more double strikes, which increases your attacks over time, which effectively increases your overall attack rate.

If you didnt double strike at all at 16 dagger mastery, you would have 1.33 attacks per second just like swords and axes.

Lady Lorwinia

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

In this universe. In north america. That should keep you pedophiles guessing^^

R/Me

I love assassins in arenas. But I'm not sure I would use them alot in GvG.

I run a team arena build with a friend and we kill so many boon prots in less than 5 seconds.

Assassin runs up puts on blackout my conjure ranger shoots dual + punishing and he gets out a combo really fast.

Imo they have way to many counters in GvG.

#1: Bad self heal. You don't want to go ganking Npc's or flag running.
#2: Wards, aegis, blind, diversion, weakness will all completely screw over the assassin. I still prefer warriors in GvG.

#3: They are definetly more of a pressure build. They have no backbone but they do have serious DPS. Basically an Assassin without a good tele skill is a dead assassin. Concentrated fire will bring the assassin to his knees especially if he overextends with his tele. I've seen that so many times.

Example: One team is fleeing back to their base after experiencing a team full of -30dp the assassin teles way ahead of his monks. The opposing team pushes back forward and swallows the assassin. You really have to be careful with that.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lorwinia
They have no backbone but they do have serious DPS. Basically an Assassin without a good tele skill is a dead assassin. Concentrated fire will bring the assassin to his knees especially if he overextends with his tele. I've seen that so many times. They have next to no DPS, if they cant consistently attack targets. It seems to be the consensus that they cant. Tele in, combo, tele out is very bad damage per second. DPS vs. dummies isn't the best determinant.