Double strikes were factored into the DPS calculations. And they do need the IAS, to spike with attack skills. One attack every 1.33 seconds, regardless of the damage, is a poor spike. You cant get double-strikes on attack skills either.
No, but you can certainly get double-strikes on auto-attacking--something no other profession in the game can do. And Assassins don't need IAS, because they've got plenty else to work in their favor, including a generally faster base attack speed, not to mention the chance to double-strike when auto-attacking, which will boost their DPS considerably.
If you treat IAS as the key to any important DPS, of course you're going to shrug-off Assassins. But once you realize that Assassins have many other alternatives to Frenzy (some of them being inherent, latent abilities of the profession itself), you'll start to see that IAS is only important to Warriors and Choking Gas Rangers.
Quote:
Can you give me a combo that can outspike Eviscerate + Executioner's under Frenzy (2 seconds, ~300 damage) without any tricks ? That means no pre-applying hexes etc. Nothing but attack skills, within that 2 second timeframe?
Okay, see, the problem there is if I can't pre-apply hexes, the Warrior can't prep his Adre. That is only fair. To properly spike, the Warrior needs to prep Adre. To properly spike, the Assassin needs to prep one or two skills. If you eliminate my hexes, you need to eliminate the Warrior's Adre gain.
Quote:
Edit: Ok, for the proposed combo, you may use any hexes etc. that you desire. But you will have to add their cast times into the 2 second window. Its only fair, since they are a part of your spike.
I hope you realize the major lapse in your logic here. lol. Let's see if I can edit your own quote above and show you what I'm talking about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Ok, for the proposed combo, you may use any amount of time that you need to build Adrenaline that you desire. But you will have to add that time into the 2 second window. Its only fair, since Adrenaline is the most important part of your spike.
Get what I'm saying here? The Warrior prep time is just as long, if not longer, than Assassin prep time. Compare the Warrior Adre gain (prep time for the spike) of approximately 7-8 seconds (or if Frenzy, cut that in half) for Evis and Exe Adre costs, plus the actual spike time itself of 2 seconds, against the Assassin prep time of maybe 2 seconds (sometimes even 1, depending), if that, and then maybe 5 seconds (though that's probably even closer to 4, when I think about it) when going through the attack chain.
Now let's add those numbers.
Non-Frenzy Wars are taking 7 seconds to prep (Adre costs), plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 9 seconds.
Frenzy Wars take 4 seconds (though this is being generous) to prep, plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.
Assassins require 2 seconds to prep, plus another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.
Now, I'm an English major, so I suck at math, but seems to me when we're talking about spike speed...Warriors desperately need Frenzy to even come close to how fast Assassins can rock out their respective spike.
And the only way that anyone here is able to call Warrior superiority when it comes to spiking is by...apparently forgetting that Warriors have a lengthy prep time of their own. The 2-second spike is never a 2-second spike. Calling it a 2-second spike is a complete mis-nomer, especially when one is using "spike prep time" as the grounds on which to imply an Assassin inferiority.
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I wouldn't call it "insane shit" but this is the way to go. Golden Phoenix Strike, Palm Strike, these are all good skills. I'm uncertain how you plan to forego off-hand attacks or at least skills that count as off-hands though.
My point was more that Lead Attacks might become inconsequential in particular builds, which cuts down on the already brief prep time required for spikes. Impale-->Black Lotus Strike-->Twisting Fangs, for example.
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This was about standing ground and attacking to apply DPS between skill chains was it not ? Why are we talking about escape?
Uh, because we're talking about Assassin players heading into the backlines to apply DPS between skill chains, and no self-respecting Assassin player would ever seriously forgo a method of escape if they're heading into the backlines? It's one or two skill slots that can mean the difference between life and death.
The Assassin in the backlines is begging for a spike, okay, but just like the Warrior in the backlines is begging for a solid Mesmer spike. And a spike that completely ignores the War's high armor rating.
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This is what I think: Smart Assassins will not be assassins, but */A's using the mobility offered by the Assassin skill lines to do other things. We are already seeing this now.
I think once people see what Assassins can do, we'll be seeing more primaries. Like I've said before, Critical Strikes alone is worth going primary for.
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Axe Base DPS w/ Frenzy = 32.6
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13 and Critical Eye = 22.15
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13, Critical Eye and Locust's Fury = 31.38
But its all about the application again. And my previous numbers for Dagger DPS turned out to be incorrect as I made one fatal oversight, let me correct them.
And look at that. With your newest calculations, DPS between Assassin and Warrior, using the usual skills, is almost dead even, with barely a 1-point difference.
LaserLight
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
La La Land
[NOVA]
A/
06 May 2006 at 02:13 - 122
Quote:
Non-Frenzy Wars are taking 7 seconds to prep (Adre costs), plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 9 seconds.
Frenzy Wars take 4 seconds (though this is being generous) to prep, plus another 2 seconds to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.
Assassins require 2 seconds to prep, plus another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike, which means their spike takes a total of 6 seconds.
Read carefully now, this is important.
See, using an Impale -> Black Lotus Strike -> Twisting Fangs strike takes less time from the ground up than even a Frenzy Warr building adren from the ground up, and deals just as much damage, if not more, than Evis/Exe. Especially since Twisting Fangs also applies Bleeding, which shouldn't be completely forgotten. Plus, it even leaves you your Elite slot for evil stuff like Siphon Strength. Of course, Warriors in the thick of a melee can build up that Evis/Exe over and over again, while an Assassin has to wait for skill recharge - brutal in the case of Black Lotus.
But then, when there comes time for a tacitcal retreat, the Warrior must abandon any built-up Adrenaline he has and waste that potential damage, while an Assassin is just waiting for recharges. Frontloading damage versus backloading damage. If you boys are allowed to build up Adrenaline, we're allowed to Hexinate people a little to soften them up.
Since, after all, it's an integral part of how Assassins deal damage. Take away the Hexes and you're talking away part of the Assassin's potential. Would you like to try and play a Warr without any Adrenaline skills?
fallot
I'm the king
Join Date: Nov 2005
Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore
06 May 2006 at 08:12 - 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
No, but you can certainly get double-strikes on auto-attacking--something no other profession in the game can do. And Assassins don't need IAS, because they've got plenty else to work in their favor, including a generally faster base attack speed, not to mention the chance to double-strike when auto-attacking, which will boost their DPS considerably.
If you treat IAS as the key to any important DPS, of course you're going to shrug-off Assassins. But once you realize that Assassins have many other alternatives to Frenzy (some of them being inherent, latent abilities of the profession itself), you'll start to see that IAS is only important to Warriors and Choking Gas Rangers.
I don't think you understand me. I didn't say they needed the IAS to match a Warrior's DPS, I don't care one bit about their DPS. Whether it is inferior to a warrior's or superior is meaningless. I said, repeatedly, that they need IAS to spike. And until they have it, their spikes will come slow and be healed immediately. In between chains even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
And the only way that anyone here is able to call Warrior superiority when it comes to spiking is by...apparently forgetting that Warriors have a lengthy prep time of their own. The 2-second spike is never a 2-second spike. Calling it a 2-second spike is a complete mis-nomer, especially when one is using "spike prep time" as the grounds on which to imply an Assassin inferiority.
A warrior building up adrenaline is actually dealing damage. An assassin waiting for skill recharges, or laying hexes, is not. That is why I didn't count adrenaline build-up between spikes, as the warrior is doing his job between them. But you may count them if you desire, because the real issue is still not addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
another 4 seconds (3 attack skills at 1.33 seconds each bring it to 3.99, correct?) to actually spike
No matter how you spin prep times, adrenaline buildup etc. In the end, an actual spike that takes 4 seconds is a very shitty spike. It still doesn't match to 300 damage in a 2 second timeframe, regardless of anything else. The warrior may take ten years to build adrenaline, but his damage will come in a very small duration, hopefully a duration quick enough to prevent any sort of healing. From experience I can tell you that even this fails very often, so how can a spike that takes twice as long do anything ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
My point was more that Lead Attacks might become inconsequential in particular builds, which cuts down on the already brief prep time required for spikes. Impale-->Black Lotus Strike-->Twisting Fangs, for example.
I agreed with you. Though your particular combo is too much of a warning with Impale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Uh, because we're talking about Assassin players heading into the backlines to apply DPS between skill chains, and no self-respecting Assassin player would ever seriously forgo a method of escape if they're heading into the backlines? It's one or two skill slots that can mean the difference between life and death.
The Assassin in the backlines is begging for a spike, okay, but just like the Warrior in the backlines is begging for a solid Mesmer spike. And a spike that completely ignores the War's high armor rating.
Lets take it from the top, before I lose myself in your argument, if you have been misrepresented in any of the following points, please clarify your position. I have attempted to reproduce what I have understood.
-I said that the Assassin cannot apply his DPS.
-You said that he could by hitting random targets.
-I stated that those targets were in the midline or backline, and he would get spiked if he approached them.
-You said that any good Assassin has escape skills to prevent this.
-Now I'm confused because an assassin that needs to escape when he approaches the backline (which he most certainly does) is not applying DPS, therefore what I said in the beginning is correct, and any comparison between Warrior DPS and Assassin DPS is foolish.
-When an Assassin enters the enemy backline, they will hurt him, he will retreat. When a warrior does the same, there will be more of a problem, since they can only hurt him so much. And whats that about a "mesmer spike" ? Are you familiar with what manner of skills mesmers carry in the current metagame ? Are you aware how many mesmers are required for a spike ? Why can warrior's safely do this now ? If they feared that oh so deadly mesmer spike ?
How much GvG experience do you have ? Sometimes you say the darndest things. This isn't meant to be derogatory or anything, I just want to know so any further arguments I make can be made according to our collective experience in this form of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
And look at that. With your newest calculations, DPS between Assassin and Warrior, using the usual skills, is almost dead even, with barely a 1-point difference.
Have we forgotten that this is inconsequential ? And I wouldn't call Locust's Fury a "usual skill".
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
the Warrior must abandon any built-up Adrenaline he has and waste that potential damage
Thats what wands are for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
If you boys are allowed to build up Adrenaline, we're allowed to Hexinate people a little to soften them up.
You make building up adrenaline sound like the Warrior is standing in one place and charging up. He is hitting things and dealing significant damage. He is a huge threat while building up adrenaline. An assassin, as soon as he hexes his target, has immediately called out the target of his spike.
SparhawkJC
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
The Amazon Basin
R/Me
06 May 2006 at 10:17 - 124
Guess it's time for me to throw in my two cents. I have to side with fallot on this argument. After playing with the assassin extensively this past week (71 hours) I've noticed that our damage potential has been cut by a lot. I hope we find whoever okayed the decision to move twisting fangs to critical strikes, because of that the assassin lost it's greatest spike skill. I'm beginning to think that A-net is intending for the assassin to be another condition spreader like the ranger.
As the skills are right now, the warrior is still the better spiker and has greater DPS. However as Laserlight has pointed out we get the use of some pretty nice hexes, although impale was a poor choice for your hex example. In order to get decent damage out of impale you would need to invest in 4 skill trees, which is a bad idea. I like to think of Deadly Arts as the Beastmastery of the assassin. A strong skill line no doubt, but a ranger investing in Beastmastery would be taking points away from their energy managament(expertise) and self heal/attack buufs (Wilderness Survival). An assassin investing in Deadly arts is depriving himself of energy management (critical strikes) and the mobility that makes this class viable in the first place (Shadow Arts).
As it stands right now, the assassin can make use of the strengths of all three weapon lines of the warrior in one combo. Example of this, Leaping Mantis Sting+Jungle Strike+ Mark of Instability(awesome because it's unlinked now)+Twisting Fangs. If you wanted you could even throw Blinding Powder in there just in case your target is some angry warrior who wants to lay in on the punk who just crippled, bled, deep wounded, and knocked him down.
But I digress. With the skills the way they were during the FPE, we may have been able to come close to the warrior in spike capability but those days are long gone. For now we sins are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we've ben delegated to condition spreaders with decent damage and the best mobility in the game. We're far removed from the spike monsters of the FPE but then again Guild Wars didn't need another warrior type anyways.
fallot
I'm the king
Join Date: Nov 2005
Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore
06 May 2006 at 10:35 - 125
Here is a nice little study, that is a good example of what I'm attempting to say. The numbers are accurate, and the insight mirrors my own views.
Read Post #9
I'd like to say clearly that Assassins dont suck in case anyone misunderstands. They add many interesting things to the game, but if they are being considered a source of damage or a good spike, there are better options. The linked post above gives some situations where an Assassin could be useful, and for the most part I agree with it.
Before I go nuts under all the spin and say something stupid, I'll just wait and see what everyone thinks of the above.
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
06 May 2006 at 20:53 - 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
I don't think you understand me. I didn't say they needed the IAS to match a Warrior's DPS, I don't care one bit about their DPS. Whether it is inferior to a warrior's or superior is meaningless. I said, repeatedly, that they need IAS to spike. And until they have it, their spikes will come slow and be healed immediately. In between chains even.
You'll find that I wasn't implying you were saying they needed IAS to match a Warrior's DPS. What I was saying was that they don't need IAS in general. IAS is a Warrior requirement, because without it, Warriors have nothing to enhance their attack rate. Assassins are radically different, so why do we continue to apply Warrior requirements to them, instead of viewing them as a profession with their own ways of enhancing DPS and spike damage? And again, they really do not need IAS to spike. Good Assassins can blow through their chain quickly enough so that they can unleash their front-loaded damage way, way faster than anything else.
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A warrior building up adrenaline is actually dealing damage. An assassin waiting for skill recharges, or laying hexes, is not.
And what's the Assassin doing when the skills are recharging? Standing around and twiddling his or her thumbs? Or dancing? Or maybe attacking? Be sensible here. haha
Quote:
That is why I didn't count adrenaline build-up between spikes, as the warrior is doing his job between them.
And that's entirely the problem, because if we're talking about spike time, and time required to spike, you absolutely need to count adrenaline build-up between spikes, because does a Warrior auto-attacking make the difference, or does Evis/Exe make the difference?
Quote:
But you may count them if you desire, because the real issue is still not addressed.
You either factor in Warrior Adre gain time in your assessment or you can't base your argument on spike prep time, because it's a stacked argument if you don't acknowledge the fact that Warriors have a stupidly long amount of prep time required, especially when you're using the 2-second Assassin spike prep to say that if Assassins need a hex or two to spike, they're not good spikers, or at least they're substandard spikers. That's basically what you're saying here.
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No matter how you spin prep times
lol, I'm not spinning prep times, though. I'm pointing out something that apparently everyone has ignored in making their points about how Assassins are weak(er) when it comes to damage infliction.
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adrenaline buildup etc. In the end, an actual spike that takes 4 seconds is a very shitty spike. It still doesn't match to 300 damage in a 2 second timeframe, regardless of anything else. The warrior may take ten years to build adrenaline, but his damage will come in a very small duration, hopefully a duration quick enough to prevent any sort of healing. From experience I can tell you that even this fails very often, so how can a spike that takes twice as long do anything?
An Impale+Twisting Fangs combination (roughly 100 from Twisting, then another 50 from Impale, plus the Deep Wound) matches, if not exceeds, the damage from Evis, and in all seriousness, rivals Evis/Exe, I think. From the Impale+Twisting combination, you're easily looking at inflicting 250 damage, probably more than that. And then even more if you nab Criticals on those Twisting dual hits.
This isn't Theory Wars, either. I've seen the damage numbers when I've been on the receiving end of these types of combinations, and they're nasty as hell. They're more of a surprise for me than Evis/Exe is, honestly, because I've caught way too many Evis/Exe combinations with my Mesmer before. ~_^
And for the sake of argument, let's see how long the Impale+Twisting combination takes.
Prepping Impale is 1 second.
Going into Black Lotus Strike is 1 second.
Going into Twisting Fangs from there is 1 second.
Since we’re apparently treating Evis/Exe attacks as 1 second each, it’s only fair to give the same consideration here. So then…my math might be incorrect, but judging from the times for those Assassin skills…it looks to me that Impale/Twisting causes 250 damage in under 3 seconds. And that’s 250 damage from one attack, really. So basically…250 damage in 1 second. If you don’t use Impale, that’s still pretty absurd. 200 damage in 1 second.
For a neat design, check out http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3026496
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I agreed with you. Though your particular combo is too much of a warning with Impale.
If the Assassin can blow through the attack chain quickly enough, it's not that much of a warning. Plus, if we're talking about "Lookie here lookie here!" types of actions to advertise a spike, I'm always keeping an eye on the Warriors running around, to watch for patterns. And I've gotten fast enough to catch Evis in the middle of their swing. Anything is a warning sign when the opposition is on top of things.
Quote:
Lets take it from the top, before I lose myself in your argument, if you have been misrepresented in any of the following points, please clarify your position. I have attempted to reproduce what I have understood.
-I said that the Assassin cannot apply his DPS.
-You said that he could by hitting random targets.
-I stated that those targets were in the midline or backline, and he would get spiked if he approached them.
-You said that any good Assassin has escape skills to prevent this.
-Now I'm confused because an assassin that needs to escape when he approaches the backline (which he most certainly does) is not applying DPS, therefore what I said in the beginning is correct, and any comparison between Warrior DPS and Assassin DPS is foolish.
-When an Assassin enters the enemy backline, they will hurt him, he will retreat. When a warrior does the same, there will be more of a problem, since they can only hurt him so much.
Exactly. There was never a debate here so much as a continuing thought process. I’m all for Assassins getting in there and having fun with random auto-attacks. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to ignore the need for an exit strategy.
And that’s why there’s a flaw in your assessment. The Warrior needs to have an exit strategy just as much as the Assassin does. I’ve punished overextended Warriors fast enough to where they can barely get back to their Monks. And them getting back to their Monks is very, very rare when I’m in the zone, as it were. Properly specced characters can cause a lot of hurt on a Warrior. Much moreso than you’re giving them credit for here, I assure you.
Quote:
And whats that about a "mesmer spike"? Are you familiar with what manner of skills mesmers carry in the current metagame? Are you aware how many mesmers are required for a spike? Why can warrior's safely do this now? If they feared that oh so deadly mesmer spike?
When I’m in the zone as my Mesmer, I only need myself to spike a certain character into the ground, especially when that certain character has overextended. I’ve polished and fine-tuned a particular build (and my strategy and timing with it) to where I can handle most characters very easily. And the reason Warriors can run in no problem currently is because we just don’t have enough Mesmers specced in a certain way.
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How much GvG experience do you have ?
Enough. ^_^
Quote:
Sometimes you say the darndest things. This isn't meant to be derogatory or anything, I just want to know so any further arguments I make can be made according to our collective experience in this form of the game.
And that's exactly why people don't take me seriously most of the time. I use tactics and skill strategies that most would consider unsound or at the very least, highly unconventional, but I’m comfortable using them, so I can make them work very, very well. It’s a pity I’ll probably never see my strats and tactics anywhere but my own characters, but that’s not my loss. Cause it often becomes my victory. lol
Quote:
Have we forgotten that this is inconsequential? And I wouldn't call Locust's Fury a "usual skill".
How is it inconsequential, though? The Warrior is guaranteed to be running Frenzy, correct? So why is the Assassin's DPS when using the "usual skills" inconsequential? And there are other Elites in the Assassin line-up, yes, but you never know. We may very well see a build incorporating Locust's Fury.
Quote:
Thats what wands are for.
You make building up adrenaline sound like the Warrior is standing in one place and charging up. He is hitting things and dealing significant damage. He is a huge threat while building up adrenaline.
I'm all for wanding someone to build Adre, but if the Warrior needs to wand someone to build Adre...he's not dealing any significant damage at all. And if he needs to wand someone to keep his Adre up, then something isn’t working correctly, and that Warrior’s effectiveness just dropped considerably, no matter if he’s keeping his Adre up or not. Also worth mentioning is Sympathetic Visage. It’s much more dangerous against Warriors than any other profession. Against a good Assassin with proper Critical Strikes and such, losing 3E per hit means nothing, because they’re probably gaining 5-6E back with each hit.
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An assassin, as soon as he hexes his target, has immediately called out the target of his spike.
Yeah, and the Monk will immediately hop to negating that spike (a spike that, keeping in mind, is only nothing more than a singular hex at that present moment) when there are two Warriors running around, an Air Ele screwing with characters, and a Necro who’s been FoCing around. Heh. If the Assassin is quick enough, they’ll get their spike off before the Monk can react, I’m sure.
Iraqalypse Now
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Seattle, Wa
Nuclear Babies
E/Mo
06 May 2006 at 21:15 - 127
I think that one of the things that many people are missing is the utility of an assassin... for pure DPS, warriors are the best damage in the game by design. However, assassins are ideal for supporting the use of blackout while attack skills are recharging. I can easily see assassin/mesmers attempting to spike a target at the beginning of the engagement, then running back to the backlines to apply a blackout to a warrior to reset their adren.
I'm not argueing that warriors aren't disruptive - making enemy characters kite, as well as messing up positioning badly, is very disruptive. Assassins can be disruptive in different ways - carrying blackout, using temple strike, etc.
fallot
I'm the king
Join Date: Nov 2005
Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore
07 May 2006 at 15:21 - 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now
I think that one of the things that many people are missing is the utility of an assassin... for pure DPS, warriors are the best damage in the game by design. However, assassins are ideal for supporting the use of blackout while attack skills are recharging. I can easily see assassin/mesmers attempting to spike a target at the beginning of the engagement, then running back to the backlines to apply a blackout to a warrior to reset their adren.
I'm not argueing that warriors aren't disruptive - making enemy characters kite, as well as messing up positioning badly, is very disruptive. Assassins can be disruptive in different ways - carrying blackout, using temple strike, etc.
I agree completely, this is the capacity I always envisioned Assassins being used for. But people seem to go crazy when you say that a Warrior is the superior damage dealing choice.
Siren, I'm going to tentatively agree with your assesment as well, until a little time at least. I feel I'm stepping into the realm of theorycraft, some playtime is in order . Not that I agree with everything you say, but I dont really agree with some things I've said either.
c33sh0nd
Academy Page
Join Date: Oct 2005
07 May 2006 at 16:52 - 129
im not a pro in any way, but i do notice the assassins have decent enough damage, that when used well will hurt as much as a warrior.
i really do hope assassins get a true frontline job eventually, because this game only has 1 frontliner, and thats just a bit crappy imo
Mitsuko
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Uranus
Ember of War
E/R
10 May 2006 at 07:39 - 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Suoon
with my assassin i can kill warriors real fast so it really matters by the skill u have and wut skills u are using
what's your sin's name in GW? .....let's make it short, u haven't come across a well played Warrior yet...
u're funny.....
Mitsuko
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Uranus
Ember of War
E/R
10 May 2006 at 07:41 - 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy untouchable
Assassins need to stick to atacking monks and rit, type targets...I havnt pvp vs AS in the last few days, but warrior owns them, Bad...run little fellow, kiss my hammer............I personally think they SUCK
weird...i was pvp with this sin... dude casted shadow step or whatever it is called... runs away from me..***thought i was gonna chase him*** moments later, he popped where he casted it...... it was an easy kill..
Mitsuko
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Uranus
Ember of War
E/R
10 May 2006 at 07:44 - 132
i would like the assassins try to tank those titans in hell's precipice... should be funny...
Mitsuko
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Uranus
Ember of War
E/R
10 May 2006 at 07:56 - 133
think of all the role playing games suchs as final fantasy:
in FF tactics, does the ninja/samurai deal more damage than a knight or holy knight?
In FF 2/4, does edge deal more damage than cecil or kain (excluding throws)
in Diablo 2, does the assassin deal more damage than the barbarian?
in FF7, does yuffie deal more damage than cloud?
u guys get the idea..
overall, a ninja/assassin/thief base class have never over powered a knight/warrior base class in any RPGs i've played....
I personally think the assassin suck.. I prefer a ranger over it..
Saider maul
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Baltimore, Maryland
10 May 2006 at 15:17 - 134
I have to Say the Assassin has a far higher DPS then a Warrior but with t he tanks armour/skills and the assassin 70armour with the need to teleport in and out with wasted run time the DOT has to go to the Warrior.
tortuise and the Hare situation here.
the hare can run circles around the tortuise but the tortuise can run all day.
fallot
I'm the king
Join Date: Nov 2005
Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore
10 May 2006 at 17:29 - 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saider maul
I have to Say the Assassin has a far higher DPS then a Warrior
This thread is full of DPS comparisons with real numbers. So how can you say that ?
Yukito Kunisaki
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chicago, IL
W/N
10 May 2006 at 19:21 - 136
Soooo m aaaannn y pooooosss s tttsss...
What's damage have to prove anyway? Does that mean mesmer technically sucks cause he's got the lowest dps in the game [in general, on average, etc.]
Roles peeps, roles!!
Taking a character out of role is like asking a monk to tank. [not that they can't, but when the enchants and stances are gone, warrior > all]
I think some of you get a little too much satisfaction over:
"HAH MY #'S PROVE YOU WRONG, SO I'M BETTER THAN YOU!"
Erm, internet argument >> leads to >> special olympics anyone?
I'm certain beyond a reasonable doubt in this criminal court of mindboggling stupidity...
Some people just don't know how to play what and blam, blame it on bad game mechanics...
It's not like the people at Anet could just wave a wand and fix everything. [game patch, 'balance', or whatever those nice people like to call it]
With or without #'s you got to ask yourselves, do I WANT to play an assassin class?
If all you're gonna do is use game data and facts to prove someone else wrong, go to school, not to game... sheesh*
Funny, if you look at raw #'s, this game really only needs 3 classes...
Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....
Maybe it'd be better if they just removed all the ineffective classes [as some of you geniuses have put it] and just leave these 3 in eh?
Love your class, play your class, and have fun in the game for crying out loud...
BigTru
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2005
10 May 2006 at 20:04 - 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitsuko
in FF tactics, does the ninja/samurai deal more damage than a knight or holy knight?
Yes. Quite a bit more actually, unless you're cheating and including Orlandu.
Venus was her name
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
Cornwall, UK
W/N
10 May 2006 at 20:15 - 138
surely the 3 different warrior weapons have different damage rates?
so thats 3 different ways to damage?
......
fallot
I'm the king
Join Date: Nov 2005
Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore
10 May 2006 at 20:35 - 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
What's damage have to prove anyway? Does that mean mesmer technically sucks cause he's got the lowest dps in the game [in general, on average, etc.]
I think you lost the argument somewhere, DPS is not a measure of the viability of a class. However, comparisons were being made between Warrriors and Assassins as damage dealers, therefore DPS is one of the numbers required to confirm any statements made. No one is about to make a thread called "Damage Comparison: Mesmer vs. Warrior".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....
Your close-minded comment adds nothing to this argument. Not only did this not make any sense, it has absolutely nothing to do with anything that is being discussed. I dislike how you refer to character classes as "your" and "mine", I play and enjoy the game as a whole, it doesn't mean I am not going to bring up grievances or percieved imbalances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
With or without #'s you got to ask yourselves, do I WANT to play an assassin class?
Missing the point, I have an Assassin and love playing him. But this thread is entitled "Damage Comparison: Assassin vs. Warrior", it is irrelevant whether you enjoy playing the class or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
If all you're gonna do is use game data and facts to prove someone else wrong, go to school, not to game... sheesh*
A discussion where both sides bring up arguments backed up by facts is something everyone benefits from.
Katari
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Upstate
Me/
10 May 2006 at 23:12 - 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
Some people just don't know how to play what and blam, blame it on bad game mechanics...
It's not a matter of knowing how to play the class at all. It's pretty clear that a warrior can deal more damage faster than an ele. Assasin vs Warrior is less clear because of critical hits, and dual strikes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
Funny, if you look at raw #'s, this game really only needs 3 classes...
Warrior, Monk, Elementalist... They possess the best 'effectiveness' of every thing in the world of rpg, everything else could pretty much be just a 'spinoff' of it... etc....
Maybe it'd be better if they just removed all the ineffective classes [as some of you geniuses have put it] and just leave these 3 in eh?
I don't exactly see why you put that ele in there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
And again, they really do not need IAS to spike. Good Assassins can blow through their chain quickly enough so that they can unleash their front-loaded damage way, way faster than anything else.
That assumes there's something special about sin spikes. Like maybe something that makes them faster, harder to block, etc than a warrior spike. I'm not aware of anything that makes them more unstopable. If a sin wants to kill someone in PvP, I see no reason they'd need IAS less than a warrior would. If all warriors needed IAS for was building adrenaline and boosting DPS, you'd see more of stuff like Battle Rage, or Bezerker's Stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
And for the sake of argument, let's see how long the Impale+Twisting combination takes.
Prepping Impale is 1 second.
Going into Black Lotus Strike is 1 second.
Going into Twisting Fangs from there is 1 second.
Since we’re apparently treating Evis/Exe attacks as 1 second each, it’s only fair to give the same consideration here. So then…my math might be incorrect, but judging from the times for those Assassin skills…it looks to me that Impale/Twisting causes 250 damage in under 3 seconds. And that’s 250 damage from one attack, really. So basically…250 damage in 1 second. If you don’t use Impale, that’s still pretty absurd. 200 damage in 1 second.
The 1s attack time from Evice/Exe is due to IAS. You apparently don't have IAS on your sin, so that's really 3.66s. One second isn't enough of a cast time for a player to communicate to the monk that they have impale on them. However it could give a monk warrning enough to get in a guardian or RoF before someone 'spikes' him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
How is it inconsequential, though? The Warrior is guaranteed to be running Frenzy, correct? So why is the Assassin's DPS when using the "usual skills" inconsequential? And there are other Elites in the Assassin line-up, yes, but you never know. We may very well see a build incorporating Locust's Fury.
Locusts Furry is an elite that simply boosts DPS. A warrior won't be brining Frenzy purely for DPS, but a sin would be brining Locust's Furry purely for DPS. Oh, and Locust's Furry is an elite. So it would be interesting to look at numbers compairing DPS, but it would be downright silly to claim that assasins have better at DPS if all that made them so was Locust's Furry.
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
11 May 2006 at 00:41 - 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
That assumes there's something special about sin spikes. Like maybe something that makes them faster, harder to block, etc than a warrior spike.
There are a lot of things special about sin spikes, including things to make them faster (as it relates to movement speed, Siphon Speed is absolutely stunning), harder to block, etc. Best I've seen in Warrior regarding anti-evasion are other stances (there goes the IAS) or stuff from certain secondaries. Assassins have the advantage here when it comes to self-buffs.
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I'm not aware of anything that makes them more unstopable. If a sin wants to kill someone in PvP, I see no reason they'd need IAS less than a warrior would.
Check out some Deadly and Shadow Arts. Assassins have got better than IAS. Much better. Damage enhancement, bonus status effects, anti-evasion, snare/hex combinations...the list goes on and on.
Quote:
If all warriors needed IAS for was building adrenaline and boosting DPS, you'd see more of stuff like Battle Rage, or Bezerker's Stance.
No, we wouldn't. Because Berserker's Stance sucks (both as an Adre gain and IAS), and Battle Rage, while I can make it work beautifully, is a bizarre skill that drains Adre every 16 seconds, provided you don't use a non-attack skill before that, which makes it substandard in most builds.
And I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, as well. "If all Warriors needed IAS for was building Adre and boosting DPS"? I don't think that makes any sense, because what else are Warriors going to be using IAS for? Building Adre and boosting their DPS. Oh, of course: to shave off a fraction of a second from their Evis/Exe combo.
Quote:
The 1s attack time from Evice/Exe is due to IAS.
Yeah, and by bringing in IAS, Assassins are now allowed to use their own self-buffs, and their damage infliction is a hell of a lot scarier than 300 damage in 2 seconds, because, like I've shown in a previous post, the math from the spike works out in favor of the Assassin. They're hitting 250 damage in 1 second, versus the Warrior's 300 damage in 2 seconds.
Quote:
You apparently don't have IAS on your sin, so that's really 3.66s.
Because Assassins don't need IAS. Check out Deadly and Shadow Arts and see what I mean. Some of the stuff in there is fecking nasty.
Quote:
One second isn't enough of a cast time for a player to communicate to the monk that they have impale on them. However it could give a monk warrning enough to get in a guardian or RoF before someone 'spikes' him.
How many Monks are on the team? What are they doing? What's the other team doing? Which characters are they pressuring? You overestimate the Monk's ability to get a Guardian or RoF off in time, especially when the Assassin is simply capitalizing on battlefield chaos.
Quote:
Locusts Furry is an elite that simply boosts DPS.
So?
Quote:
A warrior won't be brining Frenzy purely for DPS, but a sin would be brining Locust's Fury purely for DPS.
Again, so?
Quote:
Oh, and Locust's Furry is an elite.
Okay, and?
Quote:
So it would be interesting to look at numbers compairing DPS, but it would be downright silly to claim that assasins have better at DPS if all that made them so was Locust's Fury.
There's the so! Regardless, I'm having trouble finding an actual point here in your conclusion. I mean, when we look at base DPS, without any IAS or Assassin skills, with the traditional attribute point spreads...the DPS between Wars and Sins is surprisingly similar. When we add IAS/Assassin skills into it, however, Assassins edge ahead. How is that a silly conclusion to make?
Because Locust's Fury is an Elite? Because the Warrior isn't bringing Frenzy for the sole purpose of boosting DPS, even though it's a major reason to bring Frenzy, especially after that War's Adrenaline gets wiped out if someone hits Sympathetic/Ancestor's Visage? Or Locust's Fury being an Elite that boosts DPS?
Sorry, but if there's anything silly here, it's your reasons. lol.
If you open up the Warrior skill lines for self-buffs, the Assassins get full access to their respective skill lines (because it's only fair), which gives them access to a few self-buffs that are much, much, much more powerful than 95% of the Warrior skill lines.
And after doing that, it's not silly at all to conclude that by using something like Locust's Fury (though L.F. was an example off the top of my head), Assassins can achieve a higher DPS than Frenzy Wars.
Do you know what is silly, though? Calling such a conclusion silly for your reasons above.
Katari
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Upstate
Me/
11 May 2006 at 01:37 - 142
The fact that Locust Furry might give sins better DPS than a warrior (Which numbers are you going with? They may have more raw DPS without Locust's Furry) is unimpressive in almost the same way Primal Rage boosting a warrior's DPS is unimpressive.
Quote:
Yeah, and by bringing in IAS, Assassins are now allowed to use their own self-buffs, and their damage infliction is a hell of a lot scarier than 300 damage in 2 seconds, because, like I've shown in a previous post, the math from the spike works out in favor of the Assassin. They're hitting 250 damage in 1 second, versus the Warrior's 300 damage in 2 seconds.
It isn't 250 in one second. It's Black Lotus Strike->Impale->Twisting, right?
1.33s->1s->0.75s(aftercast)->1.33s = 4.41s?
Saider maul
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Baltimore, Maryland
11 May 2006 at 02:08 - 143
I say the warrior has better over time due to him being able to endure dmg better monger and more of it. and still deal during the battle rather then run in and out.
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
11 May 2006 at 02:17 - 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
The fact that Locust Furry might give sins better DPS than a warrior (Which numbers are you going with? They may have more raw DPS without Locust's Furry) is unimpressive in almost the same way Primal Rage boosting a warrior's DPS is unimpressive.
I'm going by the numbers for Locust's Fury in-game at this very moment.
At 13 CS, Locust's Fury lasts longer than its recharge.
At any level of CS, it grants an additional 20% chance to doublestrike.
With each level of Dagger Mastery, there's something like an additional 2% to doublestrike. At 12-13 Dagger Mastery, that gets to be close to 30% doublestrikes.
Now think about that for a moment. 20%+30%. Half of your auto-attacks may very well be doublestrikes when using Locust's Fury. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially if you get Critical hits on top of doublestriking at least every three attacks.
Oh, and Primal Rage sucks because it's disabling the Warrior's attack skills, has a crap duration, and grants 20% armor penetration, which is only effective against hard targets, and the Warrior rarely (if at all) should ever be targeting characters with high AL, especially when there are squishies around. Not to mention there are much, much better Elites out there. The improved Critical rate and duration/recharge are the only attractive things about the skill.
Quote:
It isn't 250 in one second. It's Black Lotus Strike->Impale->Twisting, right? 1.33s->1s->0.75s(aftercast)->1.33s = 4.41s?
Impale-->Black Lotus-->Twisting, actually. Once you're done with the cast, you can go nuts. No pauses after Impale is cast.
Now, since we're counting the time required to prep for the spike (your "It isn't 250 in one second" bit)...the Assassin needs about 4 seconds, based on your calculations. I wonder what the Warrior needs to prep for his spike?
At 8 required Adrenaline for Evis alone, you're looking at swinging (and connecting) 8 times. Under IAS, that's a roughly even 8 seconds, because Frenzy is improving the attack speed by 33%, which drops the attack rate down to 1 second per swing, again if my math doesn't completely suck here.
Without IAS, however, you're looking at 8 seconds + 8 times 0.33 seconds in order to fully charge Evis. That comes out to be almost 11 seconds to charge up 8 strikes of Adre to do around 170 damage in 1 second. The prep time for Evis alone is either 8 seconds (with IAS) or 11 seconds (without IAS).
Compare that to Assassin.
Assassin takes 3 to 4 seconds to prep for a spike that easily can do 250 damage in 1 second.
Let's make those numbers completely clear so there's no room for confusion:
Warrior: 8-11 seconds. 170 damage in 1 second.
Assassin: 3-4 seconds. 250 damage in 1 second.
Superior spiker in this case? Looks like the Assassin by a longshot.
Sure, you could point to the Warrior being able to bring in Exe immediately after Evis, but then I could point out that the Assassin could have brought Mark of Instability for a Dual Attack KD (Twisting Fangs just became a 250 spike plus KD then), and followed Twisting Fangs with Falling Spider, to inflict bonus damage and Poison, which, when added to Twisting, brings things to 8 health degen on a target that's just been spiked for half of their max health (and that's if they were a fresh character).
Or I could mention how instead of Locust's Fury, the Assassin brought Moebius Strike and Critical Strike, so after he's spiked for 250 from Twisting Fangs, he goes into Moebius Strike-->Critical Strike, both causing damage that's been amplified due to the Deep Wound, and if the target was under 50% health after Twisting Fangs (which they very likely would be), the entire attack chain just got a recharge from Moebius' bonus effect, which means setting up the chain again isn't going to be hard at all, especially when Impale is going to be recharging in the next 5-10 seconds.
Still so convinced that a Warrior still has the upper hand when compared to a properly designed and played Assassin?
twicky_kid
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
Quite Vulgar [FUN]
11 May 2006 at 02:19 - 145
A war's eviscerate + executioners is 2 seconds total but it is 100 dmg then 200 dmg. A zin's combos are much slower (no IAS) and degen makes the target very noticable. Double strike is not a form of IAS its more DPS.
Deep wound isn't applied until a the next hit after eviscerate. That is the reason it works so well. Monks do not have enough time to react.
Zins are really limited to aura of displacement for their elites. So far for PvP I see no other skill even comparing. The attack elites have been completely scewed. The buff elites are not any good being enchantments with long recharges. The debuffing elites are hex with long recharges which again suffers from being removed.
Your elite should be to make you do your job or role better. Warriors are suppose to kill quickly after adren is built. Deep Wound + high dmg skill allows the warrior to do his job. Assassins are suppose to attack then get out. Aura is really the only elite that fits that description.
I think Assassins will learn to use IAS in the end. Frenzy is still the only real choice. Their armor sux so bad so what does double dmg really matter.
Dark fury really needs to be harnessed by teams. Its range is now radar size. Its been change but the description still says nearby. 4 hits to charge evisc + exec is very deadly. 5 hits for backbreaker.
moriz
??ber t??k-n??sh'??n
Join Date: Jan 2006
Canada
R/
11 May 2006 at 02:28 - 146
comparing the damage output of warriors and assassins is a waste of time. here's a general guideline on the difference between assassin and warrior:
warrior: general attack pressure
assassin: gank machine, selective killer
the warrior can't dream to match the assassin's mobility. while the assassin CAN technically keep pace with a warrior damage-wise, that will pretty much kill their mobility, making them very much useless.
so in conclusion, the assassin and the warrior are two very different character classes. comparing them is similar to, and about as useful as, comparing a ranger to a monk.
Schorny
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
11 May 2006 at 02:33 - 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Without IAS, however, you're looking at 8 seconds + 8 times 0.33 seconds in order to fully charge Evis. That comes out to be almost 11 seconds to charge up 8 strikes of Adre to do around 170 damage in 1 second. The prep time for Evis alone is either 8 seconds (with IAS) or 11 seconds (without IAS).
This is completly wrong.
A warrior charging his skills is a serious threat. And you have to consider the charging time of adrenalin skills the same way as you consider the recharge of assasin skills.
It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills...
and as you said: it takes about 11 seconds to charge them.. how long does it take to recharge the assasin skills?
all i want to say is: get your math right.
Katari
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Upstate
Me/
11 May 2006 at 02:35 - 148
And then you have a cooldown on your attack skills. The adrenal cost is only slightly more annoying than a cooldown in that it's less reliable. But it isn't 8-11s of prep-time on one target, it's 8-11s of prep-time on an off-target, and that prep-time is doing something, so it's not useless.
A single missed attack will shutdown an assasins entire assasin 'spike.' Exe or Evi getting blocked will suck, but it won't cause the rest of the attack chain to miss.
Daggers do not have an attack speed of 1s. They have the same attack speed (1.33s) as swords and axes when using attack skills.
I see the strength of a PvP sin in their mobility, chiefly in the form of Aura Of Displacement.
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
11 May 2006 at 03:23 - 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schorny
This is completly wrong.
It's completely right, actually. Watch me show how.
Quote:
A warrior charging his skills is a serious threat.
An Assassin is, too, especially when they're Critting and Doublestriking 30% of the time as they recharge their skills.
Quote:
And you have to consider the charging time of adrenalin skills the same way as you consider the recharge of assasin skills.
Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time. Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.
Quote:
It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills...
Okay, and the Assassin wouldn't be auto-attacking why? And how could the Assassin not be doing damage while auto-attacking? Especially when they're getting Crits almost 30% of the time (2% times 13), and Doublestriking almost 30% of the time on top of that?
Quote:
and as you said: it takes about 11 seconds to charge them.. how long does it take to recharge the assasin skills?
Apart from Black Lotus Strike and Temple Strike, all of the Assassin attack skills recharges are between 4 and 15 seconds. On average, the recharges are 8 seconds. And again, check out Moebius Strike. Recharges become irrelevant.
And let's not also forget that one could go A/R and bring Serpent's Quickness for even faster recharges.
Quote:
all i want to say is: get your math right.
But that's the beauty of it. My math is completely correct here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
And then you have a cooldown on your attack skills.
A cooldown that, for the most part, is still faster than re-charging Evis/Exe. Only a handful of attack skills have recharges longer than 10 seconds.
Quote:
The adrenal cost is only slightly more annoying than a cooldown in that it's less reliable. But it isn't 8-11s of prep-time on one target, it's 8-11s of prep-time on an off-target, and that prep-time is doing something, so it's not useless.
Like I've said before, the Assassin shouldn't just be sitting around doing nothing while his or her attack skills recharge. Especially when the Assassin can net Criticals and Doublestrikes while auto-attacking.
Quote:
A single missed attack will shutdown an assasins entire assasin 'spike.' Exe or Evi getting blocked will suck, but it won't cause the rest of the attack chain to miss.
Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier? And if Evis gets blocked (or Diversioned, which is worse for a Warrior, because they have no way to recharge Evis at all), that War is going to rely on auto-attacks and Exe...which suffer from the same problems Evis ran into if the Warrior is still attacking the same target.
Quote:
Daggers do not have an attack speed of 1s. They have the same attack speed (1.33s) as swords and axes when using attack skills.
I was never arguing otherwise, though. And here's a fun thing to consider. If the Assassin Doublestrikes, they're getting two auto-attacks where the Warrior would only net one auto-attack. The War's running Frenzy, improving his attack speed to 1 second, right? The Assassin is Doublestriking every 1.33 seconds (best case scenario, obviously, but still relevant).
The Warrior's regular auto-attack is swinging every second, due to IAS, correct? Each second, they're getting one auto-attack.
The Assassin, on the other hand, has the capability to Doublestrike with every auto-attack, every 1.33 seconds. So each 1.33 seconds, they're getting two auto-attacks.
After 4 seconds, the Warrior's (with IAS) had 4 auto-attacks, while the Assassin (no IAS) has had 3+Doublestrikes, which can very easily become 5 auto-attacks.
Katari
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Upstate
Me/
11 May 2006 at 03:40 - 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier? And if Evis gets blocked (or Diversioned, which is worse for a Warrior, because they have no way to recharge Evis at all), that War is going to rely on auto-attacks and Exe...which suffer from the same problems Evis ran into if the Warrior is still attacking the same target.
Right, Just because evicerate is blocked dosen't mean exe won't be. But there's still the chance that it will land. If you miss your Lotus Strike, you're waiting till it recharges before you land a twisting. If a sin looses their lead (Or starting offhand attack, whatever) attack, they're sunk.
Quote:
Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time. Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.
Dragon Slash, Auspicous Parry, sure, they're conditional, but so is Mobious Strike.
All the DPS calculations I've seen take into account the 30% double hits, and with that factored in, the numbers are even. I made that comment about dagger speed in my last post because you kept pushing sin spike times in terms of damage done in one second. While at the same time claiming that sins don't need IAS.
Schorny
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2005
11 May 2006 at 04:20 - 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
An Assassin is, too, especially when they're Critting and Doublestriking 30% of the time as they recharge their skills.
I don't want to comment on the assasins power to sustain high dps, but I personally doubt it.
Quote:
Yeah, and you'll find that most of the attack skill recharges are comparable to Adre charge time.
exactly. as assasin got about the same recharge time - though there are a few longer recharging skills...
Quote:
Plus, if the Sin is running with Moebius Strike, the longer attack skill recharges just became irrelevant. Show me a Warrior attack skill that can recharge all of the War's Adre skills.
warriors don't need to have one. they got dark fury, to the limit, for great justice,... to power their recharge.
so we can hopefully agree that recharge isn't an advantage the assasin has...
Quote:
Okay, and the Assassin wouldn't be auto-attacking why? And how could the Assassin not be doing damage while auto-attacking? Especially when they're getting Crits almost 30% of the time (2% times 13), and Doublestriking almost 30% of the time on top of that?
I never said that.
Quote:
And let's not also forget that one could go A/R and bring Serpent's Quickness for even faster recharges.
and not be able to use an IAS while spiking?
don't forget consider energy costs here...
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But that's the beauty of it. My math is completely correct here.
warrior spike in 1 sec and 2 sec if they follow up with penetrating and not 11 seconds. that is a big difference.
a spike that takes 3 hits under no ias is not a spike, i can run up to the taret and healing touch it... that is the point.
Quote:
Okay, Guardian disrupts the chain. It's a possibility. But what about Evis? If Guardian blocks Evis...why do you think Exe will have it any easier?
because I go eviscerate, executioners, penetrating.
anyone can miss (though eviscerate hurt the most) and still deal considerable damage and might even kill the target...
Quote:
After 4 seconds, the Warrior's (with IAS) had 4 auto-attacks, while the Assassin (no IAS) has had 3+Doublestrikes, which can very easily become 5 auto-attacks.
and assasins needs double strikes because they deal less damage. so it's ok for them to hit more often to stay at the same level a warrior can...
I never said anything about assasins.
all i said was: a warrior spike takes 3 seconds (if followed with penetrating) and not 11 seconds. an assasin spike (there are no good IAS for assasins, besides tiger's fury, which costs a lot) spikes in 4 seconds with 3 "hits". (though these 3 hits are really 4 hits, but it doesn't matter because they are only 3 attacks).
This is a significant difference.
and please remember:
warrior can spike with 250+ damage in 1 second. that is something an assasin can't do.
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
11 May 2006 at 06:38 - 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
Right, Just because evicerate is blocked dosen't mean exe won't be. But there's still the chance that it will land. If you miss your Lotus Strike, you're waiting till it recharges before you land a twisting. If a sin looses their lead (Or starting offhand attack, whatever) attack, they're sunk.
The good Assassins will anticipate such a contingency and plan accordingly, whether that's bringing a "throwaway" attack, or making sure their target isn't enchanted, or just moving fast enough to catch the other team off-guard. The opposing Monks can't be everywhere, all the time. ~_^
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Dragon Slash, Auspicous Parry, sure, they're conditional, but so is Mobious Strike.
At 12 Tactics, A.Parry nets a pitiful 4 Adre. At 12 Swordsmanship, Dragon Slash also nets a pitiful 4 Adre.
I can't think of any Warrior PvP builds that actually use more than 10 in Tactics, and I certainly wouldn't waste the attribute points to pump Tactics up to 12 or higher, just to get one or two more strikes of Adre. Also, A.Parry requires physical damage, so that's only going to be casters using their wands (or a Ranger, or Assassin)...and wanding a Warrior (or attacking a Warrior when there's very likely other targets)...should never happen.
Dragon Slash, same deal. I really don't think it's even worth an Elite. We're going to see people using it, sure, but not because it's a good skill; we're going to see people using it because Sword Elites are few and far between. In fact, given the high Adre cost of Dragon Slash, I can't even see how it's better than Hundred Blades, especially if Adre gain is what you're after. And Hundred Blades is even pretty useless, especially when the build in question is using Axes.
Plus you're blowing your Elite slot with either skill, which is completely counterproductive to the goal here: to provide an Evis Warrior with an efficient way to recharge his Adre skills quickly. But you've not given me Warrior skills that fully recharge Adre skills...because there aren't any.
If we were to look at the Axe Non-Elites...we don't see much, either. Furious Axe is the only Adre return, and the rate of return sucks. It costs 9 Adre to get 2 Adre back. And since it costs 9 Adre, when you're using it, it's safe to assume all of your other skills are either charged completely, or will be after you use Furious Axe--actually, they would have been charged completely no matter what other attack skill you used.
Warrior skills that can recharge Adre attacks? Nothing like what Moebius Strike can do. Moebus is conditional, too, sure, but dropping a target down to below 50% isn't hard with Assassin attack chains such as this one. I've done it, my guildies have done it.
Sometimes, the damage output for a Moebius Strike chain will kill the target before you can even get to use Moebius Strike. Desbreko's actually had to take out Twisting Fangs because it was killing his combo, because he wanted to actually use the Elite in his skill bar. lol. Doesn't sound like an ineffective combination/build to me when you're disappointed that you didn't get to use an attack because your target hit the floor long before you could.
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All the DPS calculations I've seen take into account the 30% double hits, and with that factored in, the numbers are even.
And yet Assassins can't match Warrior DPS? Or shouldn't try to match Warrior DPS? It's not difficult to set the attributes properly to net both a high Criticals and Doublestrikes percentage; most Assassin builds we've seen are at about that level already.
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I made that comment about dagger speed in my last post because you kept pushing sin spike times in terms of damage done in one second. While at the same time claiming that sins don't need IAS.
Oh, I'm sorry. There's an extra 0.33 in that attack rate. So instead of doing 250 damage in 1 second, the Assassin is doing 250 damage in 1.33 seconds. My mistake. That changes the entire argument now...lol. It doesn't really, though. The prep time for the Assassin spike is still much shorter, and the amount of damage inflicted by one attack is still much higher.
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Originally Posted by Schorny
I don't want to comment on the assasins power to sustain high dps, but I personally doubt it.
Doubt all you want. The numbers are there.
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exactly. as assasin got about the same recharge time - though there are a few longer recharging skills...
The key difference is that Assassin skills can always be recharging. Hell, if the Assassin was so inclined, they could just sit down and in a matter of 11 seconds, their skills would be ready again.
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warriors don't need to have one. they got dark fury, to the limit, for great justice,... to power their recharge.
When's the last time we saw anyone running Dark Fury, To The Limit! or For Great Justice! I run FGJ all the time, and I was using Dark Fury long before the majority of players, but like people here have seen...my approach to the game is highly nonconventional. More people do need to discover the wonder of Dark Fury. It's one of the best Necro skills around. It's invaluable to Warriors of any type. When you can get Final Thrust charged in three hits (FGJ+Dark Fury), you know it's gotta be good.
But we're not going to see Dark Fury being used with any regularity. Same goes with FGJ. They're some of the black sheep skills of the game.
And anyway, even though Dark Fury and FGJ are awesome, they don't address my point: that Warriors don't have any skills to recharge their Adre skills. They all either depend on hitting the target more than three or four times (Dark Fury and FGJ, and Moebius Strike shats all over them), or have such a measly Adre return that they shouldn't even be considered Elites (A.Parry, Dragon Slash).
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so we can hopefully agree that recharge isn't an advantage the assasin has...
It is an advantage. The Assassin can just sit down and be ready to go in a matter of seconds. Try that with a Warrior and you'll see why I'm saying Assassins have it better.
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I never said that.
No, but I'd read something like "It takes time to recharge them - and for a warrior it doesn't matter that he has to deal damage while doing so - because even if you don't use adrenalin skills, you still want to deal damage during the downtime of your skills..." and take it to mean you don't think Assassins should deal damage during the downtime. You're focusing on dealing damage during the downtime of your skills like it's something exclusive to a Warrior. But it's not.
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and not be able to use an IAS while spiking?
And why bother with Tiger's Fury? Disabling non-attack skills for an Assassin is a stupid idea, because there are critical skills there--some that will be used to escape if need be.
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don't forget consider energy costs here...
Serpent's Quickness costs 5E and has a solid duration. An Assassin has some of the best E-management in the game. I don't think spending 5E every 20 seconds or so will be that big of a deal.
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warrior spike in 1 sec and 2 sec if they follow up with penetrating and not 11 seconds. that is a big difference.
Read my posts, please. And actually read them. And comprehend them. And pay attention to what I was saying, because I never said the Evis/Exe takes 11 seconds.
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a spike that takes 3 hits under no ias is not a spike, i can run up to the taret and healing touch it... that is the point.
Who needs three hits? All you've got are Black Lotus and Twisting Fangs in the example I've been using. Where are you getting three from? Are you not reading my posts? Do you not
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because I go eviscerate, executioners, penetrating.
anyone can miss (though eviscerate hurt the most) and still deal considerable damage and might even kill the target...
And then again, all of them could get blocked and then you're really SOL. Why would you be using Penetrating Blow anyway? Especially when you're targeting squishies? You're going to get a crap armor penetration there, because their max AL is so low.
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and assasins needs double strikes because they deal less damage. so it's ok for them to hit more often to stay at the same level a warrior can...
And when most Assassin builds are running at the appropriate Attribute levels to get such a level of Criticals and Doublestrikes...and if the numbers regarding DPS are just about even...there shouldn't even be any debate here: both classes can match the other's DPS.
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I never said anything about assasins.
You should read who it was I was quoting previously, because I guarantee you...it wasn't you. And honestly, I don't even know why I should bother replying at this point, because it's becoming clear to me you're only skimming my posts and not bothering to see what I'm really saying.
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all i said was: a warrior spike takes 3 seconds (if followed with penetrating) and not 11 seconds.
Again, read my posts with some basic comprehension, please, and you'll see that nowhere was I saying Evis/Exe takes 11 seconds.
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an assasin spike (there are no good IAS for assasins, besides tiger's fury, which costs a lot) spikes in 4 seconds with 3 "hits". (though these 3 hits are really 4 hits, but it doesn't matter because they are only 3 attacks).
Where are you getting three attacks from? Four hits? What are you talking about? PLEASE READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY before you reply again, because you're not understanding what I'm saying and what I've been saying here. That much is clear when you think I'm talking about 3-4 attacks with an attack chain that goes Impale-->Black Lotus-->Twisting Fangs.
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warrior can spike with 250+ damage in 1 second. that is something an assasin can't do.
Impale+Twisting Fangs. Easily 250 damage. 1 second (oh, I'm sorry, 1.33 seconds *rolls eyes*) I've already went over this numerous times.
prencher
Academy Page
Join Date: Nov 2005
11 May 2006 at 07:24 - 153
And my dad can beat your dad.
Different classes, different uses.. sheesh. An assassin spike with similar damage to a warrior spike coming out of nowhere to your backline is where the money's at. A warrior cannot do this.
Mitsuko
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Uranus
Ember of War
E/R
11 May 2006 at 08:23 - 154
to keep the sins from running during pvp(cuz that's all they do anyway), especially 1v1... hamstring, slash away combine with other skills..
shadowmist
Academy Page
Join Date: Feb 2006
Sanctity of Shadows
N/Me
11 May 2006 at 09:48 - 155
Eh, there's always a counter to everything, so there really is no best. Somebody that brought counters to a war maybe can't counter an assassin.
Anyways, so far my assassin deals more damage than my war in my experience. I average about 33 damage with crits, and I tend to crit more often than not. Without a crit I deal about 10-20 damage though. I use critical eye for that extra 5% crit chance and 1 extra energy boost per crit. Critical hits also give me energy back quickly so I rarely have lower than 10 energy.
With attack skills I deal about 40-60 damage per hit average, and they recharge pretty quickly IMO. Maybe about a 3-4 second wait time between each chain if I choose to wait for all my skills to fully recharge. I usually start next chain before they're all recharged though.
With my war I feel like I deal more steady damage with a few spikes inbetween. I deal about 20-30 damage consistently with 50-60 attack skils. I also can stay alive longer than my assassin under heavy fire. My assassin tends to go down fast if any group decides it needs to kill me.
I also like assassins better for killing squishies because of shadow stepping. That combined with instant damage lets me get an undefended target down to 1/5 or so health in 2-3 seconds, forcing healers to heal. If they don't, the person is dead in the next 3-4 seconds. With wars they tend to see you coming and are more prepared. I hate chasing things as a war, even with cripple and speed boosts.
To me, in the end they have roles that the other can't do. I enjoy the critical strikes attribute more than the strength attribute of the war, but thats just me. (One of these days, I'm going to try a A/W for a critical strike axe fighter thing.)
ljohn
Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Jan 2006
USA
W/Mo
11 May 2006 at 14:23 - 156
Both the warrior and the assassin are damage dealers yes, and both have their own respective ups and downs. I do remember though in a pvp situation where myself and a guildie took down a ghostly hero (just her and I) and making him bleed like crazy. I'd say we took him down in under 30 seconds. One thing that I like to do is use sharpen daggers and eventually twisting fangs. If used correctly the target foe will be bleeding almost continuously (depending on if the monks help him/her out) plus throw in Locust's Fury you might even get some double strikes. I'd venture to say that a warrior could take and dish out more damage, but with as in my case 2 assassins working together they might be able collectively dish out more damage than just a solo warrior.
Elaine Donnerbalken
Academy Page
Join Date: Mar 2006
Germany
A Three Headed Monkey Behind U [loOk]
07 Jun 2006 at 15:51 - 157
Since the last Balance Update you can cause 232 damage using the Palm Strike-Twisting Fangs Combo (at Criticals 16). And thats only the skill damage.
With Dagger Mastery 13 you would also inflict an average weapon damage of 46 .
->278 average damage
If you want to speed up this combo you could use Flurry, which would decrease the weapon damage of twisting fangs to 34.
-> 266 damage
So yes , now assassins can spike harder than a warrior which uses Evis/Exec.
Chikara
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2006
07 Jun 2006 at 17:02 - 158
with 16 crit 13daggers , against 480health and 100armor,
if a sin does palm + fangs ( only ) ,
he hits for :
90 (palm) +
42 + 30 ( assuming you get 2 crits ) + 96 ( deep wound ) + bleeding 4 (when "fangs" hit )
that makes 262 in less then 2sec ( ~1.5 )
which means ~60% of max life
. Not that I agree with everything you say, but I dont really agree with some things I've said either.
