I'm fairly sure that somewhere in the game, I remember encountering an explanation for why humans can not exceed level 20 (not the out-of-game balance explanation.). But I can't for the life of me remember where I heard it, and the specifics.
What brought this up was that in Cantha, there're lvl 20+ humans, such as the level 24 Lian, Dragon Petal (first one I encountered), and I didn't really think it made sense.
Anyone familiar with this lore?
Lore for level 20 cap
Mercury Angel
Blaarg
Wasn't it because the gods 'capped' them at a certain power because they would be too powerful compared to all the other creatures and it would just cause an imbalance between all the races?
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Blaarg
Wasn't it because the gods 'capped' them at a certain power because they would be too powerful compared to all the other creatures and it would just cause an imbalance between all the races?
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Avarre
I have no idea but I'll make something up that sounds nice:
Each of the bloodstones contains an aspect of the magic of the world. Denial, Aggression (Maguuma Jungle), Preservation, Destruction (North of Ascalon I'm guessing). The power within cannot be tapped directly but can be manipulated.
To achieve the power of a spellcaster, the 'blessing' of a god has to be given (read the ToA things). The gods grant a fragment of their power (via the bloodstone magic) to the wielder. All the Ascalonians only receieve enough to reach a certain point (level 20), to maintain game balance and because in the eyes of the gods, they're all pretty much the same people (none are 'special' at the start in any way besides being chosen or carry any favor).
Other high-level creatures are generally part of something bigger than random Ascalon citizens. Hence they are given larger boons of power, either because of race or of standing. Tyrian bloodstone magic is still under the control of the gods, who left the Titans behind to guard the keystone in case anyone tried to join the stones together (which as described before, would allow a theoretically infinte level, 8-class creature). Hence the gods have a mandate over the power of the bloodstones, which act like giant mana batteries (they can absorb souls because of this).
I just made all that up out of random things you see in game, but it sounds pretty plausible, right?
Each of the bloodstones contains an aspect of the magic of the world. Denial, Aggression (Maguuma Jungle), Preservation, Destruction (North of Ascalon I'm guessing). The power within cannot be tapped directly but can be manipulated.
To achieve the power of a spellcaster, the 'blessing' of a god has to be given (read the ToA things). The gods grant a fragment of their power (via the bloodstone magic) to the wielder. All the Ascalonians only receieve enough to reach a certain point (level 20), to maintain game balance and because in the eyes of the gods, they're all pretty much the same people (none are 'special' at the start in any way besides being chosen or carry any favor).
Other high-level creatures are generally part of something bigger than random Ascalon citizens. Hence they are given larger boons of power, either because of race or of standing. Tyrian bloodstone magic is still under the control of the gods, who left the Titans behind to guard the keystone in case anyone tried to join the stones together (which as described before, would allow a theoretically infinte level, 8-class creature). Hence the gods have a mandate over the power of the bloodstones, which act like giant mana batteries (they can absorb souls because of this).
I just made all that up out of random things you see in game, but it sounds pretty plausible, right?
Roupe
No, i havnt seen that lore But it would be intresting if there was a lore that explained why most humans cant surpase lvl 20, Ill investigate that
There are plenty of npc s humans that surpass lvl 20, so it isnt really accurate
to name examples
The Ascalon King (in Last Day dawns) Prophesies
The Luxon heroes (in Boreas Seabed) covenant/tournament
There are plenty of npc s humans that surpass lvl 20, so it isnt really accurate
to name examples
The Ascalon King (in Last Day dawns) Prophesies
The Luxon heroes (in Boreas Seabed) covenant/tournament
Arkantos
Maybe they arent humans!
Crazyvietguy
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Maybe they arent humans!
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Maybe it goes like most "hero/villian" shows and games, the hero always appears weaker than the enemy at first but in the long run turns out stronger. In other words, just cause they are lvl 24, doesnt mean i cant put together some neat skills and take them down. Big isnt always better, unless we are talking about rocks or sumo wrestlers.
Storm Crow
I don't believe there is lore for the lvl 20 cap, it's just where the designers decided to end the leveling...But for the baddies that are human, I mean, c'mon, they're baddies, and in some cases bosses, they have to be over lvl 20 since they're the same as any other monster in the game.
Francis Demeules
Ever heard chinese stories with men/women who have abilities higher than normal men?
For me I said its normal to see that from bosses.
For me I said its normal to see that from bosses.
blakecraw
those characters above lvl 20 aren't human... they're NPC's!!!
ta da, no human-controlled character higher than lvl 20 (that i know of). please let me know of my error if u managed to reach lvl 21
ta da, no human-controlled character higher than lvl 20 (that i know of). please let me know of my error if u managed to reach lvl 21
Ristaron
We know that part, blakecraw
This has always been an irritating topic to me. I understand undead, dragons, titans, giant floating squids, even baracuda - anything NONhuman being a higher level than humans can achieve... but why the hell are we not able to exceed level 20 when we face many level 21+ human NPCs?
Ascension should allow us to break this 'mortal barrier'... but no. We're stuck trying hard not to become the next WoW.
All the same, I like the cap... just not the reasoning (or lack there of) behind it. It makes our fantastic PvP system possible.
This has always been an irritating topic to me. I understand undead, dragons, titans, giant floating squids, even baracuda - anything NONhuman being a higher level than humans can achieve... but why the hell are we not able to exceed level 20 when we face many level 21+ human NPCs?
Ascension should allow us to break this 'mortal barrier'... but no. We're stuck trying hard not to become the next WoW.
All the same, I like the cap... just not the reasoning (or lack there of) behind it. It makes our fantastic PvP system possible.
Avarre
There's nothing about humans being capped to level 20, its that 'random ascalon/canthan peasant' is capped to level 20. And all characters are those, possibly for reasons I mentioned earlier. But in reality, it's for balance 
DarthLasing
Hmm..
I don't think there is a certain "lore" to the level 20 cap. Maybe..
The gods decided that humans can have 2 professions, primary, and secondary, but to make a sacrifice for this, humans sacrificed a part of there power to have 2 professions. The humans who are over level 20 don't have secondary professions.
You seee ^^
I don't think there is a certain "lore" to the level 20 cap. Maybe..
The gods decided that humans can have 2 professions, primary, and secondary, but to make a sacrifice for this, humans sacrificed a part of there power to have 2 professions. The humans who are over level 20 don't have secondary professions.
You seee ^^
Former Ruling
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I have no idea but I'll make something up that sounds nice:
Each of the bloodstones contains an aspect of the magic of the world. Denial, Aggression (Maguuma Jungle), Preservation, Destruction (North of Ascalon I'm guessing). The power within cannot be tapped directly but can be manipulated. To achieve the power of a spellcaster, the 'blessing' of a god has to be given (read the ToA things). The gods grant a fragment of their power (via the bloodstone magic) to the wielder. All the Ascalonians only receieve enough to reach a certain point (level 20), to maintain game balance and because in the eyes of the gods, they're all pretty much the same people (none are 'special' at the start in any way besides being chosen or carry any favor). Other high-level creatures are generally part of something bigger than random Ascalon citizens. Hence they are given larger boons of power, either because of race or of standing. Tyrian bloodstone magic is still under the control of the gods, who left the Titans behind to guard the keystone in case anyone tried to join the stones together (which as described before, would allow a theoretically infinte level, 8-class creature). Hence the gods have a mandate over the power of the bloodstones, which act like giant mana batteries (they can absorb souls because of this). I just made all that up out of random things you see in game, but it sounds pretty plausible, right? |
Mournblade
My theory is that for Human NPC's that exceed level 20 - they are favored by the gods for one reason or another. For past service, for current service, they're cute, just because, ect. =)
Stockholm
The +20 NPC's are the ones that bent over for the god's , so they have or have had godly parts in them.
frickett
Yeah We are capped at level 20, because of balance. We are capped at 8 party members for most locations. But we are outnumbered 5 to one in some instances and they are level 24-28. Yeah sounds balanced. I dont know of any lore that says we should be level 20, But the designers of the game say that at that point we are fully trained, in our chosen profession.
Xenrath
Levels and stats are game mechanics and nothing to do with lore.
That's like saying "lol I'm a level 20 nurse" or "that guy's a high level manager with 3million xp" - makes no sense whatsoever. You have powerful/strong characters, more capable folks. What "level" they are is irrelevent in terms of lore and storytelling.
That's like saying "lol I'm a level 20 nurse" or "that guy's a high level manager with 3million xp" - makes no sense whatsoever. You have powerful/strong characters, more capable folks. What "level" they are is irrelevent in terms of lore and storytelling.
Mournblade
Your logic has no place in this thread Xenrath. 
Xenrath
I am wielding a brain of +1 logic (20% chance) lol...
lapsus
am i the only who noticed argo is higher then lvl 20 in the kraken mission but in raisu palace hes only Lvl 20
Orinn
It's bugged me for a long time as well. I can't help but think that my character has ascended, attained a state "closer to the stars," defeated titans, a powerful lich-sorceror, near-omnipotent (if you believe their claims) dragons, and Shiro Tagachi.
What exactly did Kenshi Steelhand or Orosen, Tranquil Acloyte do that's so amazing that they're more experienced, further along the path of their chosen profession? It makes no sense in-game that they have progressed so much further. And Argo suddenly forgetting his signature skills and losing a portion of his power when he becomes a henchman? Can anyone justify that one with a lore explanation?
What exactly did Kenshi Steelhand or Orosen, Tranquil Acloyte do that's so amazing that they're more experienced, further along the path of their chosen profession? It makes no sense in-game that they have progressed so much further. And Argo suddenly forgetting his signature skills and losing a portion of his power when he becomes a henchman? Can anyone justify that one with a lore explanation?
fatogreboy
characters can only attain lvl 20 because the good side must always be weak and band together to win. This creates a wholesome game experience and reassures the fact the evil can never triumph because good will band together to defeat the evil. It has and always will be a cliche that will be in every fantasy story
lapsus
cmon you had to kill the musings with reason?
Ristaron
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Originally Posted by Mournblade
Your logic has no place in this thread Xenrath.
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Something is heavy, it has a greater mass, and therefore attracts things smaller and lighter towards it.
A denser metal will break a less dense material when the two are banged together hard enough (or frequently enough).
Someone is better at a task than someone else, whether through practice or natural talent, but drawn from personal experience in either case.
So, by logic or by statistics, why are we capped at level 20?
I have considered this recently, and a possible explanation has come to mind. While we no longer gain levels after level 20, we do gain skill points. These skill points are used towards learning (or purchasing) new skills that would better allow us to perform in our profession. But while it is pointless to have that be the only advantage by the time you reach level 20 - when you have all the skills you need - it does allow for further expansion of your character.
And therefore, logically, you can only improve physically (stamina and strength), through transcending to a new state altogether, rather than simply ascending to a higher understanding.
For from what has been said in-game, Ascending merely allows you to see spirits (or beings otherwise invisible), such as Shiro or the Mursaat. It is not a physical transformation, but rather an evolution in the understanding of the world (or your own body that you may activate such abilities as True Sight).
And that is where our own logic defeats us by claiming that Ascending should allow us to become as fiersome as the Titans.
But it still doesn't explain why there are HUMANS who are above level 20!
Carth`
For some reason I remembered something like that. I thought maybe it was in the Guild Wars manual, the part about the Gods giving magic to the world of Tyria, but limiting it. Turns out the limit was just separating magic so that no single creature can be the best at everything.. magic would still be powerful, but it would be the most powerful if people work together.
I couldn't find anything about level 20, and tbh, I'm not surprised. Level 20, like the numerical damage of a weapon, is the mechanics of the game, not part of the role playing. You don't see NPCs talking about their level in game, they would talk about how powerful, revered or famous etc they are.
I couldn't find anything about level 20, and tbh, I'm not surprised. Level 20, like the numerical damage of a weapon, is the mechanics of the game, not part of the role playing. You don't see NPCs talking about their level in game, they would talk about how powerful, revered or famous etc they are.
Avarre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lapsus
am i the only who noticed argo is higher then lvl 20 in the kraken mission but in raisu palace hes only Lvl 20
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Mournblade
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ristaron
Actually his logic has every place in this thread... he just didn't present it that way. Statistics and levels are based in logic, because the numbers that create them are drawn from the same essense as the rules that apply to them. These rules are based in logic.
Something is heavy, it has a greater mass, and therefore attracts things smaller and lighter towards it. A denser metal will break a less dense material when the two are banged together hard enough (or frequently enough). Someone is better at a task than someone else, whether through practice or natural talent, but drawn from personal experience in either case. So, by logic or by statistics, why are we capped at level 20? I have considered this recently, and a possible explanation has come to mind. While we no longer gain levels after level 20, we do gain skill points. These skill points are used towards learning (or purchasing) new skills that would better allow us to perform in our profession. But while it is pointless to have that be the only advantage by the time you reach level 20 - when you have all the skills you need - it does allow for further expansion of your character. And therefore, logically, you can only improve physically (stamina and strength), through transcending to a new state altogether, rather than simply ascending to a higher understanding. For from what has been said in-game, Ascending merely allows you to see spirits (or beings otherwise invisible), such as Shiro or the Mursaat. It is not a physical transformation, but rather an evolution in the understanding of the world (or your own body that you may activate such abilities as True Sight). And that is where our own logic defeats us by claiming that Ascending should allow us to become as fiersome as the Titans. But it still doesn't explain why there are HUMANS who are above level 20! |
Stockholm
The LvL 20 cap lore is this.
Balanced PVP.
Enough said
Balanced PVP.
Enough said
frickett
But we are talking about PVE, and the fact that many of our opponents have a higher level than 20.
Stockholm
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Originally Posted by frickett
But we are talking about PVE, and the fact that many of our opponents have a higher level than 20.
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If you have a higher lvl charachters they would all have to be reset when used in PvP, this way all balancing can be done for lvl 20.
Mournblade
Thats why people are using their imaginations and creativity to come up with a plausible in-game reason for our characters to be limited to 20th level.
Giga Strike
the reason for the lvl 20 cap is because that is the limit of mantained human endurance. other humans, such as some am fah or jade brotherhood, have been granted an aura of power by the gods because they either proved their worthyness or compleated a secret ritual that is passed down through a few NPC families (which is why you can kill a boss and it will still be there for you to kill again, they're reletives).
shiro, who isn't a true boss, became lvl 31 by hording otherworldly power to himself while he was an envoy.
players could probably become bosses by meeting some requirements (no idea what). this would raise the player's lvl cap to 24 and give them an aura, but if thye were defeated in PvP the other team would get a moral boost.
shiro, who isn't a true boss, became lvl 31 by hording otherworldly power to himself while he was an envoy.
players could probably become bosses by meeting some requirements (no idea what). this would raise the player's lvl cap to 24 and give them an aura, but if thye were defeated in PvP the other team would get a moral boost.
Orinn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Giga Strike
the reason for the lvl 20 cap is because that is the limit of mantained human endurance. other humans, such as some am fah or jade brotherhood, have been granted an aura of power by the gods because they either proved their worthyness or compleated a secret ritual that is passed down through a few NPC families (which is why you can kill a boss and it will still be there for you to kill again, they're reletives).
shiro, who isn't a true boss, became lvl 31 by hording otherworldly power to himself while he was an envoy. players could probably become bosses by meeting some requirements (no idea what). this would raise the player's lvl cap to 24 and give them an aura, but if thye were defeated in PvP the other team would get a moral boost. |
The lore as to why we as characters are capped to level 20 isn't as compelling to me as "why aren't ALL humans capped at level 20?" If level 20 is the natural limit, mortals can't reach higher levels of power, then so be it, but the inconsistancy of having level 24 human bosses in a world where human players are stopped at level 20 bothers me. I can write off level 24 (or even level 28) non-humans, because they're expected to follow different rules from humanity, but the level 24 Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah bosses bother me. If they, humans, can do it, why can't my human character?
Of course, I bet that even if Anet does someday introduce dwarves as a playable race, they'll be capped at 20 as well. Any takers? it would be inconsistant with the way the game works, sure. but I'm willing to bet my last gold piece that dwarves will face the same limitations as humans: capped at 20 for players, not capped until 28 or higher for NPC's, and no attempt at explaining the disparity.
TGgold
My theory, going to D&D.
Maybe those people aren't really and effective lvl 24 or whatever. Maybe...they took like.. FOUR LEVELS OF NOBLE o.o We all know about the USELESS NPC classes...maybe they're in GW too!
Maybe those people aren't really and effective lvl 24 or whatever. Maybe...they took like.. FOUR LEVELS OF NOBLE o.o We all know about the USELESS NPC classes...maybe they're in GW too!
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Orinn
The lore as to why we as characters are capped to level 20 isn't as compelling to me as "why aren't ALL humans capped at level 20?" If level 20 is the natural limit, mortals can't reach higher levels of power, then so be it, but the inconsistancy of having level 24 human bosses in a world where human players are stopped at level 20 bothers me. I can write off level 24 (or even level 28) non-humans, because they're expected to follow different rules from humanity, but the level 24 Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah bosses bother me. If they, humans, can do it, why can't my human character? |
frickett
But...aren't the Am Fah human also? What would be the reasoning behind their extra potential, Do they live on a diet of dragon moss, and mantid exoskeleton? Do their gods like them better? Do they HAX?
Avarre
That's like assuming every human born IRL has the same potential capability for every aptitude.
Some are stronger, some are not. The Am Fah only accept some of the stronger ones, perhaps.
Some are stronger, some are not. The Am Fah only accept some of the stronger ones, perhaps.
lyra_song
"...And the Ascalons and the Students of Shing Jea reached their bodies' limits. Even after many great battles and training, they could not become stronger, as the gods chose to limit their physical strength. Their enemies towered over them with superior strength and numbers.
However, the god's had bestowed something that even their most powerful enemy could not defeat. Their determination and knowledge. Without this, their enemies could only make their bodies stronger.
After they had discovered their destinies and were enlightened to their purpose, they pooled their resources, and in small bands, they layed waste to even the strongest foes.
The Underworld became no match for the ingenuity of the spirited monk. Normally resigned to simply supporting and healing their teammates, now with a new resolve and determination began to do the bidding as Grenth's servant. Even after the forces of darkness became stronger, the monk began to partner with the necromancer, and they cleared the dark forboding place of all evil.
Across the land of Tyria and Cantha, Warriors who had become ascended and closer to the stars gained incredible knowledge. Even though they faced enemies in greater numbers and strength, they could outwit them, using superior skills and techniques, they destroyed many foes single-handedly. They traversed across the lands with impunity, running past hundreds of foes who couldn't even lay a scratch on them. Even with their magickal runes becoming slightly weaker, it didn't stop their determination.
Let's not forget the Rangers, May Melandru Bless, who have forever been at Grenth's service, clearing and destroying the vile Aataxes that haunt his domain. They use a tactic that only a clever ranger can use, calling the spirits of energizing wind and quickening zephyr to aid them as they laid pits of traps with a deadly intent. Even the strongest and most brave of demons could not withstand these dangerous traps. They would see the ranger, armed with only a staff, and chase him, only to have their world fill with darkness, burn and scream in anguish as they are pierce with spikes.
These exploits and deeds are what seperate the man from his foes. Intelligence. Wit. Cunning.
Though they are stronger, we are smarter...."
However, the god's had bestowed something that even their most powerful enemy could not defeat. Their determination and knowledge. Without this, their enemies could only make their bodies stronger.
After they had discovered their destinies and were enlightened to their purpose, they pooled their resources, and in small bands, they layed waste to even the strongest foes.
The Underworld became no match for the ingenuity of the spirited monk. Normally resigned to simply supporting and healing their teammates, now with a new resolve and determination began to do the bidding as Grenth's servant. Even after the forces of darkness became stronger, the monk began to partner with the necromancer, and they cleared the dark forboding place of all evil.
Across the land of Tyria and Cantha, Warriors who had become ascended and closer to the stars gained incredible knowledge. Even though they faced enemies in greater numbers and strength, they could outwit them, using superior skills and techniques, they destroyed many foes single-handedly. They traversed across the lands with impunity, running past hundreds of foes who couldn't even lay a scratch on them. Even with their magickal runes becoming slightly weaker, it didn't stop their determination.
Let's not forget the Rangers, May Melandru Bless, who have forever been at Grenth's service, clearing and destroying the vile Aataxes that haunt his domain. They use a tactic that only a clever ranger can use, calling the spirits of energizing wind and quickening zephyr to aid them as they laid pits of traps with a deadly intent. Even the strongest and most brave of demons could not withstand these dangerous traps. They would see the ranger, armed with only a staff, and chase him, only to have their world fill with darkness, burn and scream in anguish as they are pierce with spikes.
These exploits and deeds are what seperate the man from his foes. Intelligence. Wit. Cunning.
Though they are stronger, we are smarter...."
Mournblade
Lyra wins the thread. Game over. =)